From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 13:56:48 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:56:48 +0100
Subject: Dane's 25 reasons stuff
Message-ID: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Dane posted this before we'd finished rebuilding the list, so it didn't make it.

Based on over 10 years of experience of DAB, I think this document is nothing but scaremongering, money-wasting, time-wasting and drivel.

Dane wrote:

   Hi!
   This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
   Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
   Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.

- Done.


From: Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>
Date: 13 April 2010 13:52:44 GMT+01:00
To: techno-chat-request at tft-bbs.com
Subject: Fwd: Techno-Chat post from grtdane at internode.on.net requires approval


Dane posted this before we'd finished configuring (rebuilding) the list.

I know you were primarily quoting here Dane, but based on experience, (over 10 years of it), I think this is nothing but scare-mongering and drivel.



Begin forwarded message:
  From:    grtdane at internode.on.net
  Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.

Hi!

This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.

Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.

Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 15:30:50 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:30:50 +1000
Subject: Dane's 25 reasons stuff
In-Reply-To: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <710F9BDA-54E4-4780-8974-074189A67853@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Well firstly, their not my 25 reasons, they're 25 reasons which have been tabled in your own parliament but regardless of all that, it would appear that - from what I'm reading in your very own newspapers, - there's a big problem with DAB over in your part of the world, the perception of it as a money waster and so on.

I appreciate and respect your opinion so we'll wait and see what happens.

DAB+ on the other hand is booming! over here, I just had notification of a new DAB+ dongal for computers which will also handle the reception of digital TV for under ?15.00 so things are going to change again drastically this year.

As yet no DAB+ in-car units are available here however one can get an adapter which will transmit DAB+ signals onto the FM band for reception.


On 13/04/2010, at 10:56 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Dane posted this before we'd finished rebuilding the list, so it didn't make it.
> 
> Based on over 10 years of experience of DAB, I think this document is nothing but scaremongering, money-wasting, time-wasting and drivel.
> 
> Dane wrote:
> 
>   Hi!
>   This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
>   Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
>   Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
> 
> - Done.
> 
> 
> From: Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>
> Date: 13 April 2010 13:52:44 GMT+01:00
> To: techno-chat-request at tft-bbs.com
> Subject: Fwd: Techno-Chat post from grtdane at internode.on.net requires approval
> 
> 
> Dane posted this before we'd finished configuring (rebuilding) the list.
> 
> I know you were primarily quoting here Dane, but based on experience, (over 10 years of it), I think this is nothing but scare-mongering and drivel.
> 
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
>  From:    grtdane at internode.on.net
>  Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
> 
> Hi!
> 
> This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
> 
> Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
> 
> Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at mac-access.net  Tue Apr 13 16:14:58 2010
From: gordon at mac-access.net (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:14:58 +0100
Subject: Dane's 25 reasons stuff
In-Reply-To: <710F9BDA-54E4-4780-8974-074189A67853@internode.on.net>
References: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<710F9BDA-54E4-4780-8974-074189A67853@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <40218235-C642-42D5-AAC1-2E3A47A2DB4C@mac-access.net>

I'm only speaking as I find.  And quite honestly, just because something gets written by a journalist or spouted by a politician, you'd have to be pretty gullible to take it as literal truth.

I've been using DAB since 1997 actually and, granted, in the early days there were some issues.  But 97% of all transmitters now have DAB available.

The only areas where there are known problems are the Scottish Highlands and the outer islands.  Perhaps one or two remote country areas as well, but that's all.

Interesting also, well over 80% of receivers sold today in the UK are DAB and a large number of those have no analogue capabilities.

As for money wasted, I bdg to differ, whoever it is talking that drivel.  The public in the UK have finally got something for their license fee!  The license fee is collected and used by the BBC to fund its radio and TV services.

The BBC is investing heavily in digital radio and TV technologies and we're benefitting from that.

For instance, radio 4 and radio 5 Live over here now operate digital-only services which have large listener bases. How then is that money wasted?  They're providing a service which, clearly, the public wants.

So I guess Dane, the old adage comes into play here, don't believe all you read in the papers! :-)

On 13 Apr 2010, at 15:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi!

Well firstly, their not my 25 reasons, they're 25 reasons which have been tabled in your own parliament but regardless of all that, it would appear that - from what I'm reading in your very own newspapers, - there's a big problem with DAB over in your part of the world, the perception of it as a money waster and so on.

I appreciate and respect your opinion so we'll wait and see what happens.

DAB+ on the other hand is booming! over here, I just had notification of a new DAB+ dongal for computers which will also handle the reception of digital TV for under ?15.00 so things are going to change again drastically this year.

As yet no DAB+ in-car units are available here however one can get an adapter which will transmit DAB+ signals onto the FM band for reception.


On 13/04/2010, at 10:56 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Dane posted this before we'd finished rebuilding the list, so it didn't make it.
> 
> Based on over 10 years of experience of DAB, I think this document is nothing but scaremongering, money-wasting, time-wasting and drivel.
> 
> Dane wrote:
> 
>  Hi!
>  This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
>  Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
>  Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
> 
> - Done.
> 
> 
> From: Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>
> Date: 13 April 2010 13:52:44 GMT+01:00
> To: techno-chat-request at tft-bbs.com
> Subject: Fwd: Techno-Chat post from grtdane at internode.on.net requires approval
> 
> 
> Dane posted this before we'd finished configuring (rebuilding) the list.
> 
> I know you were primarily quoting here Dane, but based on experience, (over 10 years of it), I think this is nothing but scare-mongering and drivel.
> 
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> From:    grtdane at internode.on.net
> Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
> 
> Hi!
> 
> This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
> 
> Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
> 
> Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Apr 13 16:19:25 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:19:25 -0500
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
Message-ID: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>

	This message is about a month old so I am sorry that I
am just now getting cought up on this list but there is an
interesting point here.

	There are two schools of thought in the world of the
designing and building of radio and television sets. One school
of thought is that the tuner or that part where the antenna
connects should be as sensitive to signals as possible. This is
wonderful if one lives out in the country or is in a building
that blocks a lot of reception such as one with a lot of
concrete and steel.

	The other school of thought says that lots of people
live in big cities where they bask in the glow of
multi-kilowatt AM and FM transmitters so the tuner, also known
as the front-end, does not need to be very sensitive because
there is more signal than one really needs floating around.

	The trouble with both these schools of thought is that
there are disadvantages to both. The Roberts receiver sounds
like it is in the hard-of-hearing camp. This is bad if you live
in a weaker signal area.

	The super-sensitive design will pull those weak signals
right in if put in the same location.

	It's problem is that when one uses it in the big city or
close to a strong transmitter or strong transmitters, the
circuitry in the front end that normally just amplifies weak
signals to make them louder or stronger is pushed to its
absolute limits and is said to saturate or become non-linear.
You hear this as a lot of odd artifacts such as one station,
possibly mixed with the sound of 1 or 2 other stations,
appearing in several places on the dial. If you put the antenna
down, these effects may go away but so will any weak signals
that you might have wanted to hear.

	Television sets have also been designed with these two
schools of thought in mind and people will say something like,

"I have a little portable in the bedroom that picks up all the
channels just fine but our big set in the living room which is
connected to an outside antenna doesn't get all of them as well.

	Some more expensive sets mostly fix this problem by
adding more amplification stages but treating them
conservatively so they are not saturated by strong signals.
They will have what are called preselector stages that help
insure that the only signals getting in to the tuner are those
you are listening to.

	One just needs to search for a radio that works best
where they will be using it as the price and brand name are no
guarantee that you will be happy. There is no perfect front-end
design.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Hello Dabne
> 
> On 17 Mar 2010, at 05:02, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? I mentioned this radio in my previous post, here's a link to it for 
> U.K. customers.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Apr 13 16:48:50 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:48:50 -0500
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by
Message-ID: <201004131548.o3DFmogl041124@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I have never visited the UK but am aware of a bit of
history regarding FM broadcasting. I don't remember the exact
year this happened, but until some date in the late eighties or
early nineties, the FM broadcast band in the UK stopped at 103
MHZ. This was because police and emergency services used 103 to
108 MHZ for some of their radio communications. All transmissions
were in AM mode and spaced 25 KHZ apart so FM listeners would
have heard a jumble of distorted voices which wouldn't have been
much to hear between 103 and 108 MHZ.

	A program on Radio Netherlands reported that inmates of
British prisons could not buy FM radios because most of them
tuned the full FM broadcast band as it exists in the rest of the
world and thus they might be able to listen to police
communications. Being as how prisoners are there because of
there transgressions, I can understand why they were limited to
AM-only sets.

	I guess that now, inmates can have AM and FM radios as
the emergency services have long vacated 103-108 MHZ in the UK.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 16:58:51 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 01:58:51 +1000
Subject: Dane's 25 reasons stuff
In-Reply-To: <40218235-C642-42D5-AAC1-2E3A47A2DB4C@mac-access.net>
References: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<710F9BDA-54E4-4780-8974-074189A67853@internode.on.net>
	<40218235-C642-42D5-AAC1-2E3A47A2DB4C@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <5351123B-3350-4D7D-8CBF-5E3F6BC6C1E6@internode.on.net>

Again, you're taking it all out of context, this is a document quoted from a sitting of parliament not made up by any journalist.


On 14/04/2010, at 1:14 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> I'm only speaking as I find.  And quite honestly, just because something gets written by a journalist or spouted by a politician, you'd have to be pretty gullible to take it as literal truth.
> 
> I've been using DAB since 1997 actually and, granted, in the early days there were some issues.  But 97% of all transmitters now have DAB available.
> 
> The only areas where there are known problems are the Scottish Highlands and the outer islands.  Perhaps one or two remote country areas as well, but that's all.
> 
> Interesting also, well over 80% of receivers sold today in the UK are DAB and a large number of those have no analogue capabilities.
> 
> As for money wasted, I bdg to differ, whoever it is talking that drivel.  The public in the UK have finally got something for their license fee!  The license fee is collected and used by the BBC to fund its radio and TV services.
> 
> The BBC is investing heavily in digital radio and TV technologies and we're benefitting from that.
> 
> For instance, radio 4 and radio 5 Live over here now operate digital-only services which have large listener bases. How then is that money wasted?  They're providing a service which, clearly, the public wants.
> 
> So I guess Dane, the old adage comes into play here, don't believe all you read in the papers! :-)
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 15:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Well firstly, their not my 25 reasons, they're 25 reasons which have been tabled in your own parliament but regardless of all that, it would appear that - from what I'm reading in your very own newspapers, - there's a big problem with DAB over in your part of the world, the perception of it as a money waster and so on.
> 
> I appreciate and respect your opinion so we'll wait and see what happens.
> 
> DAB+ on the other hand is booming! over here, I just had notification of a new DAB+ dongal for computers which will also handle the reception of digital TV for under ?15.00 so things are going to change again drastically this year.
> 
> As yet no DAB+ in-car units are available here however one can get an adapter which will transmit DAB+ signals onto the FM band for reception.
> 
> 
> On 13/04/2010, at 10:56 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Dane posted this before we'd finished rebuilding the list, so it didn't make it.
>> 
>> Based on over 10 years of experience of DAB, I think this document is nothing but scaremongering, money-wasting, time-wasting and drivel.
>> 
>> Dane wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
>> Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
>> Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
>> 
>> - Done.
>> 
>> 
>> From: Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>
>> Date: 13 April 2010 13:52:44 GMT+01:00
>> To: techno-chat-request at tft-bbs.com
>> Subject: Fwd: Techno-Chat post from grtdane at internode.on.net requires approval
>> 
>> 
>> Dane posted this before we'd finished configuring (rebuilding) the list.
>> 
>> I know you were primarily quoting here Dane, but based on experience, (over 10 years of it), I think this is nothing but scare-mongering and drivel.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> From:    grtdane at internode.on.net
>> Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.
>> 
>> Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.
>> 
>> Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, read on.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 17:08:41 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 02:08:41 +1000
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
In-Reply-To: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <19DDD5DB-E786-44EC-A5CA-5A66E5235008@internode.on.net>

Thanks for this, so your post explains why the 40 year old TV I have has a "local/distance" switch on the back of it next to the aerial socket <smile>.

Where I am you need a combination of the front end RF designs you talk about.  For analog medium-wave reception for example you'll need a sensitive set given that I live a fair way from the city, I'm on the western side of the city and most of the transmitters are based on the Easter side, more than 40 mile away, some radio sets just don't cut it out here.

It was a concern of mine when I bought the Roberts Ecologic 4 whether it would perform well where I am given the distances and as I pointed out in my original article, 9 times out of 10 I get good solid performance from it but when I put the aerial down or start walking around then solid signal strength is lost.

This seems t be a problem with most digital receivers out here though with some its more a problem than with others, for example the reviews of the Roberts Ecologic 4 commented on how sensitive the set was compared to some of the Sangean sets that were being sold so I had to use something as a guide when buying.

To take the other extreme, I know someone who has a DAB+ set and unfortunately for him the set isn't death enough given that he lives right next door to the transmitter site.

No perfect front end, that's why I have a tuner which tunes the aerial on my Denon AVR-2000 high-band width receiver, not a perfect solution to the RF-Gain problem but makes things a lot easier and smoother.


On 14/04/2010, at 1:19 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	This message is about a month old so I am sorry that I
> am just now getting cought up on this list but there is an
> interesting point here.
> 
> 	There are two schools of thought in the world of the
> designing and building of radio and television sets. One school
> of thought is that the tuner or that part where the antenna
> connects should be as sensitive to signals as possible. This is
> wonderful if one lives out in the country or is in a building
> that blocks a lot of reception such as one with a lot of
> concrete and steel.
> 
> 	The other school of thought says that lots of people
> live in big cities where they bask in the glow of
> multi-kilowatt AM and FM transmitters so the tuner, also known
> as the front-end, does not need to be very sensitive because
> there is more signal than one really needs floating around.
> 
> 	The trouble with both these schools of thought is that
> there are disadvantages to both. The Roberts receiver sounds
> like it is in the hard-of-hearing camp. This is bad if you live
> in a weaker signal area.
> 
> 	The super-sensitive design will pull those weak signals
> right in if put in the same location.
> 
> 	It's problem is that when one uses it in the big city or
> close to a strong transmitter or strong transmitters, the
> circuitry in the front end that normally just amplifies weak
> signals to make them louder or stronger is pushed to its
> absolute limits and is said to saturate or become non-linear.
> You hear this as a lot of odd artifacts such as one station,
> possibly mixed with the sound of 1 or 2 other stations,
> appearing in several places on the dial. If you put the antenna
> down, these effects may go away but so will any weak signals
> that you might have wanted to hear.
> 
> 	Television sets have also been designed with these two
> schools of thought in mind and people will say something like,
> 
> "I have a little portable in the bedroom that picks up all the
> channels just fine but our big set in the living room which is
> connected to an outside antenna doesn't get all of them as well.
> 
> 	Some more expensive sets mostly fix this problem by
> adding more amplification stages but treating them
> conservatively so they are not saturated by strong signals.
> They will have what are called preselector stages that help
> insure that the only signals getting in to the tuner are those
> you are listening to.
> 
> 	One just needs to search for a radio that works best
> where they will be using it as the price and brand name are no
> guarantee that you will be happy. There is no perfect front-end
> design.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> 
> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
>> Hello Dabne
>> 
>> On 17 Mar 2010, at 05:02, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>> ? I mentioned this radio in my previous post, here's a link to it for 
>> U.K. customers.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 17:47:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 02:47:03 +1000
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by
In-Reply-To: <201004131548.o3DFmogl041124@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131548.o3DFmogl041124@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <30EFB00E-B3AF-499C-A818-1580F12AE00B@internode.on.net>

Interesting! We had similar issues in our early days of FM, a lot of sets came in here which tuned to the Japanese FM band, - 76-90MHZ so those were absolutely useless when broadcasting officially started in 1975, the first FM broadcast in Melbourne was on 92.3MHZ and the second on 105.9MHZ.  The Australian FM broadcast band is 88-108MHZ which I think now reflects the standard the world over accept for maybe Japan which - when I last checked - still had the 76-90MHZ band.

Some radio sets get around this by just covering the whole spectrum between 76-108MHZ.


On 14/04/2010, at 1:48 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	I have never visited the UK but am aware of a bit of
> history regarding FM broadcasting. I don't remember the exact
> year this happened, but until some date in the late eighties or
> early nineties, the FM broadcast band in the UK stopped at 103
> MHZ. This was because police and emergency services used 103 to
> 108 MHZ for some of their radio communications. All transmissions
> were in AM mode and spaced 25 KHZ apart so FM listeners would
> have heard a jumble of distorted voices which wouldn't have been
> much to hear between 103 and 108 MHZ.
> 
> 	A program on Radio Netherlands reported that inmates of
> British prisons could not buy FM radios because most of them
> tuned the full FM broadcast band as it exists in the rest of the
> world and thus they might be able to listen to police
> communications. Being as how prisoners are there because of
> there transgressions, I can understand why they were limited to
> AM-only sets.
> 
> 	I guess that now, inmates can have AM and FM radios as
> the emergency services have long vacated 103-108 MHZ in the UK.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Apr 13 18:35:54 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:35:54 -0500
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
Message-ID: <201004131735.o3DHZsHx042107@x.it.okstate.edu>

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Thanks for this, so your post explains why the 40 year old TV I have has 
> a "local/distance" switch on the back of it next to the aerial socket 

Exactly.  They were trying hard to make everybody happy.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 19:02:01 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:02:01 +0100
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
In-Reply-To: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <DF5EA7BD-9AAA-4703-B660-E95DD4FB13FF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

If you're going to get technical, there is far more to a radio receiver, sorry, I should say RF receiver because we're talking about a very wide range of hardware here, than merely sensitivity.

For a start, the problem with what people call "sensitive" receivers is often that they have front-ends as wide as a barn door.  I.e., yes, they're sensitive, but they're also prtone to break-through or, as they used to crudely refer to it in the world of citizens band, bleed-over.

So, the receiver, in order to be both sensitive and selective, needs to be either a twin or tri-hetrodine receiver.  Those, sadly, probably don't exist in the world of public broadcast radio equipment.  But that's the ideal situation if you're looking at slectivity.

Again though, it really depends, as you rightly suggest, on the situation you're in and what you want the equipment for.  Sadly, the ill-informed general public often simply swallow what the manufacturers stick in front of them, and think it's the bee's knees!

You'd be amazed just how many reviews I've read of equipment by people who , clearly, don't have a clue what they're talking about and, therefore, aren't able to give a thorough review.

I guess from the perspective of practicality, telling somebody that a radio is good for portability and reliability because they can walk around with the thing and not lose signal is all well and good.  But to base a review on that is s little short-sighted, if you'll forgive my saying so.

I have a tripple-het receiver here which is actually a general coverage receiver which covers from 50 KHZ up to 30 MHZ without gaps.  It's also an amateur radio transceiver and I added a DSP to it a while ago to further refine its already superb selectivity.

This machine does upper and lower single sideband, FM, AM and CW modes right through the bands.  A great way to test the capability of a receiver like this is to place it in SSB mode and see how well you can tune to an AM signal.

AM is, of course, a far wider carrier-based signal, whereas a single sideband is audio modulated with a suppressed carrier.  So that's a good way to test the selectivity of a receiver which has those modes, without complex equipment such as scopes.

In the case of a digital radio, it's a totally different ballgame, of course.  Personally, we use nothing but digital radios these days.  Lynne has one in her car, and we have a couple of them in the house.

Digital transmissions over here are tri-band, because you have the info signal transmitted alongside the audio.  Essentially though, they use a variety of sample rates and transmission rates, depending upon the content.

So there's far more to determining which is the best digital radio for you than just its sensitivity.  Actually, selectivity i these cases isn't an issue because each "multiplexer", the systems used to transmit digital signals, contains 6 digital signals on the same frequency.  The signals are differenciated by a data control system which the receiver uses to keep track of what you're tuned too, and to synchronise the respective functions which the station supports.

I.w., over here, a station transmits a 16x8 character video set with each audio feed.  The character set is used to provide the listener via a video screen built into the receiver with information about the currently playing item or broadcast.

Anyway, just my little bit for whatever it's worth.

Gordon


On 13 Apr 2010, at 16:19, Martin McCormick wrote:

	This message is about a month old so I am sorry that I
am just now getting cought up on this list but there is an
interesting point here.

	There are two schools of thought in the world of the
designing and building of radio and television sets. One school
of thought is that the tuner or that part where the antenna
connects should be as sensitive to signals as possible. This is
wonderful if one lives out in the country or is in a building
that blocks a lot of reception such as one with a lot of
concrete and steel.

	The other school of thought says that lots of people
live in big cities where they bask in the glow of
multi-kilowatt AM and FM transmitters so the tuner, also known
as the front-end, does not need to be very sensitive because
there is more signal than one really needs floating around.

	The trouble with both these schools of thought is that
there are disadvantages to both. The Roberts receiver sounds
like it is in the hard-of-hearing camp. This is bad if you live
in a weaker signal area.

	The super-sensitive design will pull those weak signals
right in if put in the same location.

	It's problem is that when one uses it in the big city or
close to a strong transmitter or strong transmitters, the
circuitry in the front end that normally just amplifies weak
signals to make them louder or stronger is pushed to its
absolute limits and is said to saturate or become non-linear.
You hear this as a lot of odd artifacts such as one station,
possibly mixed with the sound of 1 or 2 other stations,
appearing in several places on the dial. If you put the antenna
down, these effects may go away but so will any weak signals
that you might have wanted to hear.

	Television sets have also been designed with these two
schools of thought in mind and people will say something like,

"I have a little portable in the bedroom that picks up all the
channels just fine but our big set in the living room which is
connected to an outside antenna doesn't get all of them as well.

	Some more expensive sets mostly fix this problem by
adding more amplification stages but treating them
conservatively so they are not saturated by strong signals.
They will have what are called preselector stages that help
insure that the only signals getting in to the tuner are those
you are listening to.

	One just needs to search for a radio that works best
where they will be using it as the price and brand name are no
guarantee that you will be happy. There is no perfect front-end
design.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Hello Dabne
> 
> On 17 Mar 2010, at 05:02, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? I mentioned this radio in my previous post, here's a link to it for 
> U.K. customers.
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 19:04:17 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:04:17 +0100
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by
In-Reply-To: <201004131548.o3DFmogl041124@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131548.o3DFmogl041124@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <DEC216D6-383A-483A-AD2D-5855DE98310D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services transponder downlinks were move to UHF.

Gordon

On 13 Apr 2010, at 16:48, Martin McCormick wrote:

	I have never visited the UK but am aware of a bit of
history regarding FM broadcasting. I don't remember the exact
year this happened, but until some date in the late eighties or
early nineties, the FM broadcast band in the UK stopped at 103
MHZ. This was because police and emergency services used 103 to
108 MHZ for some of their radio communications. All transmissions
were in AM mode and spaced 25 KHZ apart so FM listeners would
have heard a jumble of distorted voices which wouldn't have been
much to hear between 103 and 108 MHZ.

	A program on Radio Netherlands reported that inmates of
British prisons could not buy FM radios because most of them
tuned the full FM broadcast band as it exists in the rest of the
world and thus they might be able to listen to police
communications. Being as how prisoners are there because of
there transgressions, I can understand why they were limited to
AM-only sets.

	I guess that now, inmates can have AM and FM radios as
the emergency services have long vacated 103-108 MHZ in the UK.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 19:07:28 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:07:28 +0100
Subject: Dane's 25 reasons stuff
In-Reply-To: <5351123B-3350-4D7D-8CBF-5E3F6BC6C1E6@internode.on.net>
References: <4C7F552E-6C13-48FB-9F5D-C9733B4616F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<710F9BDA-54E4-4780-8974-074189A67853@internode.on.net>
	<40218235-C642-42D5-AAC1-2E3A47A2DB4C@mac-access.net>
	<5351123B-3350-4D7D-8CBF-5E3F6BC6C1E6@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <D1271035-4687-43D4-AF65-59092CF61DEC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I'm aware of its origins, and I'm not taking anything out of context.

I simply said that if you believe all you read in the papers, or alll that politicians would have you believe, you're a fool.

I am speaking from experience, not guesswork which, it seems, they are.


On 13 Apr 2010, at 16:58, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Again, you're taking it all out of context, this is a document quoted from a sitting of parliament not made up by any journalist.



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 19:10:20 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:10:20 +0100
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
In-Reply-To: <19DDD5DB-E786-44EC-A5CA-5A66E5235008@internode.on.net>
References: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<19DDD5DB-E786-44EC-A5CA-5A66E5235008@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <D6BE801B-DD6C-46EE-96E0-FEFD6171F3D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Just another name for an attenuator.  I guess iot makes it sound impressive, or makes it easier for the masses to understand. :-)

Nothing personal, of course, I'm just making a point.

On 13 Apr 2010, at 17:08, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Thanks for this, so your post explains why the 40 year old TV I have has a "local/distance" switch 

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 18:44:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:44:03 +1000
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
In-Reply-To: <201004131735.o3DHZsHx042107@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131735.o3DHZsHx042107@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2411945F-EA56-42B7-A86B-9B3ADCE8C6C9@internode.on.net>

Yeah, well trying to keep TV viewers happy in Australia is a big challenge <smile> given the distances sometimes from place to place.


On 14/04/2010, at 3:35 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Thanks for this, so your post explains why the 40 year old TV I have has 
>> a "local/distance" switch on the back of it next to the aerial socket 
> 
> Exactly.  They were trying hard to make everybody happy.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 19:26:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 04:26:03 +1000
Subject: Roberts Ecologic 4 DAB/DAB+ receiver 
In-Reply-To: <D6BE801B-DD6C-46EE-96E0-FEFD6171F3D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201004131519.o3DFJP1N040797@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<19DDD5DB-E786-44EC-A5CA-5A66E5235008@internode.on.net>
	<D6BE801B-DD6C-46EE-96E0-FEFD6171F3D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6E792E53-BC5F-47EA-8286-E47F5894C057@internode.on.net>

Yep exactly and point taken <smile>.


On 14/04/2010, at 4:10 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Just another name for an attenuator.  I guess iot makes it sound impressive, or makes it easier for the masses to understand. :-)
> 
> Nothing personal, of course, I'm just making a point.
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 17:08, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Thanks for this, so your post explains why the 40 year old TV I have has a "local/distance" switch 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Apr 13 19:59:57 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:59:57 -0500
Subject: Digital Radio
Message-ID: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>

	In the United States, we have both digital AM and
digital FM broadcasting but there is presently no dedicated
digital broadcasting band. The National Association of
Broadcasters or NAB wanted and were able to develop something
called IBOC which stands for In-Band On-Channel. It seems like the UK has
its own special band for digital radio.

	There was much debate in the United States as to whether
to use a separate band or in-band on-channel as that technology
is much more complex.  Today, as
you tune across the AM band, you may notice that some of the
stations have a lot of hiss just above and below their
frequency. They are using the one and only IBOC technology
approved for digital AM Radio. It reportedly gives FM Stereo
quality sound to an AM signal as long as you are getting a
strong enough signal to receive the digital data.

	On FM, as you tune across that band, you notice that
some of the stations have a buzzing sound just above and below
the channel. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner running. This is
the IBOC digital carrier for that station. That gives you at
least 2 CD-quality stereo programs plus some low-speed data for
song titles although the Radio Data Service also gives you that
if you have a suitably-equipped receiver.

	Both the AM and FM digital standard in the United States
buffer 8 seconds of audio so radio stations delay their main
channel programming by 8 seconds. This means that if you are
listening to the digital version of the main channel and you
move in to a weak signal spot and loose the digital carrier,
your radio drops in to analog mode but you still hear the same
sound you were listening to before the dropout. The quality
degrades to whatever the analog channel sounds like at the
moment but you don't miss any of the sound as long as you can
still receive the main channel.

	The marketing talk by the NAB calls digital AM and FM HD
or High Definition radio. After all, we have high definition
digital television so it is similar terminology.

	Digital AM/FM radios are in shops at
prices that are not the least bit excessive. I personally do not
yet own one and I don't know how accessible they are but it
sounds like at least some of them are as accessible as any AM
and FM radio. As much as I love technology and new toys, the
quality of the content of commercial radio is truly lame most of
the time and all the interesting programming from our NPR
affiliate is on their main channel so buying a digital radio is
not high on my bucket list although I probably will break down
and get one one of these days.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 20:19:45 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:19:45 +1000
Subject: Digital Radio
In-Reply-To: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <AB2F5D8B-628B-4574-B04C-CB9611790CE7@internode.on.net>

This is very interesting.

DAB was - at one time - supposed to be the world-wide standard for Digital radio but its been overtaken by DAB+, Iboc and DRM, DRM tests are going on in Australia now and in the U.K.

Can't speak for the U.K. but there's a very good chance that DRM will be impleminted alongside DAB+ in Australia, DRM is a more versatile system than is DAB+, for example you can either have DRM specific transmissions - very high quality audio/data - or you can have a Combined DRM signal which is transmitted alongside a medium or shortwave signal - FM quality digital signal -


On 14/04/2010, at 4:59 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	In the United States, we have both digital AM and
> digital FM broadcasting but there is presently no dedicated
> digital broadcasting band. The National Association of
> Broadcasters or NAB wanted and were able to develop something
> called IBOC which stands for In-Band On-Channel. It seems like the UK has
> its own special band for digital radio.
> 
> 	There was much debate in the United States as to whether
> to use a separate band or in-band on-channel as that technology
> is much more complex.  Today, as
> you tune across the AM band, you may notice that some of the
> stations have a lot of hiss just above and below their
> frequency. They are using the one and only IBOC technology
> approved for digital AM Radio. It reportedly gives FM Stereo
> quality sound to an AM signal as long as you are getting a
> strong enough signal to receive the digital data.
> 
> 	On FM, as you tune across that band, you notice that
> some of the stations have a buzzing sound just above and below
> the channel. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner running. This is
> the IBOC digital carrier for that station. That gives you at
> least 2 CD-quality stereo programs plus some low-speed data for
> song titles although the Radio Data Service also gives you that
> if you have a suitably-equipped receiver.
> 
> 	Both the AM and FM digital standard in the United States
> buffer 8 seconds of audio so radio stations delay their main
> channel programming by 8 seconds. This means that if you are
> listening to the digital version of the main channel and you
> move in to a weak signal spot and loose the digital carrier,
> your radio drops in to analog mode but you still hear the same
> sound you were listening to before the dropout. The quality
> degrades to whatever the analog channel sounds like at the
> moment but you don't miss any of the sound as long as you can
> still receive the main channel.
> 
> 	The marketing talk by the NAB calls digital AM and FM HD
> or High Definition radio. After all, we have high definition
> digital television so it is similar terminology.
> 
> 	Digital AM/FM radios are in shops at
> prices that are not the least bit excessive. I personally do not
> yet own one and I don't know how accessible they are but it
> sounds like at least some of them are as accessible as any AM
> and FM radio. As much as I love technology and new toys, the
> quality of the content of commercial radio is truly lame most of
> the time and all the interesting programming from our NPR
> affiliate is on their main channel so buying a digital radio is
> not high on my bucket list although I probably will break down
> and get one one of these days.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Apr 13 20:40:47 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:40:47 -0500
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
Message-ID: <201004131940.o3DJelFv042808@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
Highway Patrol.

	I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
in the eighties.

	We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
the other.

	While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
about daily life.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services 
> transponder downlinks were move to UHF.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 21:53:38 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:53:38 +1000
Subject: PDA'S for the Deaf-Blind
Message-ID: <C8BA5D59-E09F-485F-80AD-58BE868012C4@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Over the past 6 weeks it has been my pleasure! to try 2 different Personal data Assistants which have been designed for the deaf-blind so I thought I'd discuss these and perhaps my thoughts will encourage others to come forward with comments as I know there are several people on list who use Braille displays for example and a Braille display is a centre piece of the 2 units I'm going to discuss, The unit from Freedom Scientific and the unit from Human ware.

So to the first question, why have a personal data assistant at all when one can purchase a notebook computer along with a Braille display? I asked the same question myself until seeing a Personal data Assistant, the difference in size pretty much puts the question to rest, - when sitting on a couch trying to read the news paper with a Braille display and notebook, see how you go juggling 2 devices whereas with a PDA? Well you have both devices immediately at your fingertips on your knee.

Yes, there's no doubt that the 2 PDA products I'm going to discuss are expensive but if you're able to get hold of one then I'd still recommend it given the power you get out of these things and perhaps my reasoning will be further clarified as you read on.

I like to think that I'm taking an open mind in this discussion when it comes to both the products I used, both have advantages and disadvantages over each other and indeed! over a conventional computer system and its up to you to buy what you consider what's best for you rather than what other people consider is right for you.

The first PDA I tried was the incredibly versatile Omni BX400 from Freedom Scientific which was teamed together with a Pacmat PM20 20 cell Braille display, you can buy the Omni on its own and choose your display at a later point - either a 20 or 40 cell display - or you can buy the Omni pre-configured with a display, the display removes for the Omni for even better portability and reduction in size.  The Pacmate display will work with another computer including Windows and Mac.

I like the scroll wheels on the Pacmate, a "must have" when wanting to quickly scroll through text, wheels are customisable so you can have them set to perform other functions than scrolling.  Didn't like the layout of the buttons on the display though, right above each cursor routing button is a "display hotkey", like the scroll wheels these can also be programmed to perform various tasks or change settings.  These "hotkeys" may be convenient in theory but I found that I'd accidentally tap one instead of a cursor routing button, something I'd get used to perhaps? Well may be though the whole thing annoyed me more than once <smile>.

And so to the Omni itself, speech is clear and perfectly audible through the very nice internal speaker less than half an inch round, yep only one speaker here and this may be a problem depending on your hearing.  Opposite the speaker on the right-hand side of the Omni is the internal microphone which can be used with Skype and other recording software.

The Omni runs the latest edition of Windows Mobile so if you've used a phone or another PDA using the Windows Mobile operating system then using the Omni will be second nature to you.  If you're new to Windows Mobile then there's a bit of a learning kerb which the included version of JAWS can help you with by giving you extra instructions as to what the "Softkeys" do at any one time and in any open applications - "Softkeys" are those keys or buttons on mobile phones or PDA"s which change function according to the application or task at hand, m- when in the mail application the "softkeys" may perform the "Send mail" and "Cancel" functions respectively or perhaps when in the calendar the "Softkeys" may be assigned the functions of "New appointment" and "New To-Do" -, ost mobile devices have at least 2 "Softkeys".

I find the approach that Freedom Scientific have taken to the design and concepts for the Omni fascinating, Windows Mobile is installed as is so in other words what you get with Windows Mobile is exactly what you see on the Omni and I'm delighted to say that every Windows Mobile application I tried was perfectly accessible through JAWS and that's nice.

Having said all that however you do need a novice pilots licence to operate many of the functions of this product and the manual goes all over the place, I was left wondering just how many people know everything there is to offer about the Omni? Probably not many.

I found applications that didn't work as they should, the FS Daisy Reader for example wouldn't allow me to navigate headings.

Freedom Scientific maintains a very nice support page for the Omni and Pacmate which brings me to one of the biggest grips I have about the Omni, it does not come "Network Ready" and by that I mean you have to pay extra to have the device connect to the Internet or to your home network in the form of a wireless flash card.  This was a great surprise to me as all the PDA's I know of are ready to connect to a Network and Internet out of the box and I think that people are paying enough for an Omni as is without having to shell out another couple of hundred dollars for a Wi-Fi Network Compact flash card.

The Braille keyboard of the Omni needs a complete redesign, the keys are spring loaded and they make an all mighty racket when pressed, hardly helpful if you take the device to lectures, can only wonder how long the springs will last before they break.

If you' plan to use the Omni with a Mac then forget it, I can't think of a single way you'd be able to synchronise your information on the Mac with this device, there may be a way of accessing Mobile Me and syncing the 2 machines that way but I don't know of one.

I was proud to be able to test the Human Ware Braillenote Apex which has only ben available for 3 months, I consider this machine an outstanding! PDA.

Its lighter, thinner and less bulky than the Omni but offers so much more for around the same price.

, a different approach has been taken to the design of the Braillenote, we're looking here at a product which - whilst running Windows C - has been designed for the deaf-blind person from the ground up.  For example, the Word Processing package has ben designed for blind people rather than an off-the-shelf product such as Microsoft Office and then leaving accessibility to a screen reader.  This approach has its obvious advantages in that access to all function can be made in a user friendly way.

No pilots licence required to rive this beautiful machine, the menu system is well laid out and easy to get to, no complex button presses and no knowledge of how an operating system works is required, in fact very little knowledge of how a computer works is needed.

The Braille display is sharper and easier to read than that of the Pacmate, it also seemed to me that the dots were larger.

The Braillenote has a scroll wheel, its positioned above the spacebar, a little unusual I thought when I first saw it but it didn't take me long to get used to it and if the scroll wheel isn't for you then there are 4 buttons on the front of the machine which can be configured to mimic the wheel.

A pleasure to use the Braille keyboard on the Braillenote, soft, firm but yet responsive and quiet.

Connectivity options abound, connect the Braillenote to your Mac and use the Braillenote as a Braille keyboard for the computer.  Connect a QWERTY keyboard to the Braillenote, connect a monitor to the Braillenote so that those with sight can see what you're doing etc, 3 USB ports are available plus 1 sync USB port.

I didn't find any problems whatever in the software. everything performed as I expected it should without any hitches.

Love the "Book Reader", will read just about anything and I'm told that Humanware have plans to further enhance this function, Audible books are fully supported.

Excellent audio quality both through the 2 stereo internal speakers and headphones.  Recording is good through the built-in microphone and recording is further enhanced by a convenient 1-touch "record" button which can be accessed anywhere and at any time in the Braillenote.  Recording anything with the Omni is a pain in the bum as you have to set up all your parameters, decide on what recording software you're going to use, download and install that software and so on.  By default the quality of the recording function in the Braillenote is good enough for voice recordings, lectures, memos and so on and the settings can be changed, both Braillenote and Omni allow for the connection of an external microphone/headset which can be purchased at your local mobile phone accessaries supplier.

Both Omni and Braillenote have Bluetooth facilities though you'll need to purchase an extra bluetooth flash card to get the Bluetooth functioning with the Omni, Braillenote has the bluetooth receiver built-in.

Braillenote comes ready to connect to your network or Internet, the machine has an Ethernet port or you can use the "Wi-Fi" facility.

I think this will do for now, obviously I haven't covered everything so if anyone has any further questions then don't hesitate to ask.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 22:27:31 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:27:31 +0100
Subject: Digital Radio
In-Reply-To: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <18A4572E-07AF-46EF-BDBB-C427CD3EA365@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Actually, I believe that Canada does it the way we do, and certainly the rest of Europe does.  I.e., there are 2 adjoining bands used for digital broadcasts.  I'm not entirely sure of the frequencies off the top of my head, but I  could find out easily enough.

One band is used for video signals for station information and another band for the audio.  The multiplexers are far more efficient than just using a conventional FM or AM carrier-based system because each multiplexer can carry up to 6 signals compressed.  I'm bound to say also that those who dispute the quality of DAB as implemented in Europe need to actually try the thing before they condemn it.  By that, I'm talking about ill-informed politicians such as those Dane quoted earlier.

In actual fact, the quality of some of the stations broadcasting on digital format these days is as good as CD quality.

Indeed, there is one station which started up a short time ago around here which uses nothing but super-audio CD, I think they call it.  They're taking digital broadcasting to the next level and, if you have a surround sound system with a compatible receiver and decoder, you can get utterly awesome quality from this service.

I haven't heard it myself, but I'm told by those who have that it blows your mind!

On the subject we were discussing earlier, Gillian has just left our house.  She brought with her a new Roberts radio, as given to her by the UK charity Wireless For the Blind.

I'n bound also to say here that my Pure portable blows it away in every respect.  The Roberts kept losing signal, even though we're in an excellent signal location.  The Bilsdale transmitter mast is visible from here on a clear night, and even our local 2 meter repeater station, (GB3HG), which transmits on low power from Bilsdale, is 60DV over 9 even with a portable antenna.  Shows you how strong the digital signal must be.

The Pure DX1 tuner I also have works fine on a wall-mounted di pole, vertically polarised. On the external antenna I have mounted on the chimney, it just rocks, absolutely and totally rocks.

Of course, the drawback with DAB is that it's not possible to receive non-local services intended for reception in a given area.  Because all of the local stations use the same multiplexer frequencies, the local ones will always win.

With digital radio, (DAB), there's no such thing as a het effect, which I've often experienced with overlapping signals on the VHF band.  By the way, there is no such thing as an FM band. :-)

FM can be used at any frequency although, obviously, it's often mistaken for a band name rather than a class of emission because as Dane rightly says the VHF broadcast band is now almost entirely globally standardised.

This brings to mind another point on what's turning into a very interesting discussion.  If memory serves, when the Sydney Olympics took place back in ... what was it ... 2000?  I believe that New South Wales radio amateurs lost the use of their 70CM band, between 430 and 440 MHZ I think they had at the time, as we do.

Apparently, the Australian government, after the games were over, decided not to return the allocation to the amateur community, preferring instead to cash in and sell that part of the spectrum to commercial operators wishing to license PMR.

I also understand that the changeover went national in 2001, so all Australian amateurs were up in arms for a while.

Does anybody know what happened about that?  Did they get the frequency allocation back?  I know there was a big campaign to try and win it back and the Radio Society of Great Britain apparently also lent its support to their Australian counterparts.

Gordon


On 13 Apr 2010, at 19:59, Martin McCormick wrote:

	In the United States, we have both digital AM and
digital FM broadcasting but there is presently no dedicated
digital broadcasting band. The National Association of
Broadcasters or NAB wanted and were able to develop something
called IBOC which stands for In-Band On-Channel. It seems like the UK has
its own special band for digital radio.

	There was much debate in the United States as to whether
to use a separate band or in-band on-channel as that technology
is much more complex.  Today, as
you tune across the AM band, you may notice that some of the
stations have a lot of hiss just above and below their
frequency. They are using the one and only IBOC technology
approved for digital AM Radio. It reportedly gives FM Stereo
quality sound to an AM signal as long as you are getting a
strong enough signal to receive the digital data.

	On FM, as you tune across that band, you notice that
some of the stations have a buzzing sound just above and below
the channel. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner running. This is
the IBOC digital carrier for that station. That gives you at
least 2 CD-quality stereo programs plus some low-speed data for
song titles although the Radio Data Service also gives you that
if you have a suitably-equipped receiver.

	Both the AM and FM digital standard in the United States
buffer 8 seconds of audio so radio stations delay their main
channel programming by 8 seconds. This means that if you are
listening to the digital version of the main channel and you
move in to a weak signal spot and loose the digital carrier,
your radio drops in to analog mode but you still hear the same
sound you were listening to before the dropout. The quality
degrades to whatever the analog channel sounds like at the
moment but you don't miss any of the sound as long as you can
still receive the main channel.

	The marketing talk by the NAB calls digital AM and FM HD
or High Definition radio. After all, we have high definition
digital television so it is similar terminology.

	Digital AM/FM radios are in shops at
prices that are not the least bit excessive. I personally do not
yet own one and I don't know how accessible they are but it
sounds like at least some of them are as accessible as any AM
and FM radio. As much as I love technology and new toys, the
quality of the content of commercial radio is truly lame most of
the time and all the interesting programming from our NPR
affiliate is on their main channel so buying a digital radio is
not high on my bucket list although I probably will break down
and get one one of these days.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 22:36:18 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:36:18 +0100
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
In-Reply-To: <201004131940.o3DJelFv042808@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004131940.o3DJelFv042808@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <A121B62F-EB36-48D0-9ECA-0F2C8F6BA05F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

The old 41 MHZ band was ditched in the late 60s or early 70s.  We now use 512 MHZ for TV transmissions, and that's the area which differs slightly from radio signals because, as I understand it, the digital multiplexers are in a very close frequency range to where the analogue is.

Actually, quite a few analogue transmitters of TV signals have already been turned off over here, and the switch-over will be complete by the middle of 2012.  Meaning that all those old analogue TVs and VCRs will be bricks.

On the subject of VCRs, most of the big manufacturers have announced their intention to stop manufacturing VCR/DVD/HDTV combis at the end of this year.  It's already very difficult to find a stand-alone VCR here nowadays.

The reason is obvious, of course.  As I said, we're moving from analogue to digital and there is little point producing a VCR with a digital tuner.  Given the switch is so close, nobody is buying analogue TVs any more and, actually, they were withdrawn from the UK market late in 2008.

So I guess you could say ... times they are a changing. :-)


On 13 Apr 2010, at 20:40, Martin McCormick wrote:

	Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
Highway Patrol.

	I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
in the eighties.

	We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
the other.

	While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
about daily life.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services 
> transponder downlinks were move to UHF.
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 22:55:21 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:55:21 +0100
Subject: PDA'S for the Deaf-Blind
In-Reply-To: <C8BA5D59-E09F-485F-80AD-58BE868012C4@internode.on.net>
References: <C8BA5D59-E09F-485F-80AD-58BE868012C4@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <123D2433-82DE-4E3E-9364-1BE10CBA3E40@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane & all

Let me just start by saying that a PDA is not for me.  But as Dane rightly says, whatever floats your boat!

I personally didn't like the Braillenote when I tried it at the exhibition recently where I saw a number of Humanware products, such as the VRS.

But Dane, you might be interested to know that the Brailliant uses the same type of display module as the Braillenote does.  And I share you opinion that it out-performs the Freedom displays in terms of legibility.

The Focus range from Freedom, (which I have tried extensively), didn't impress me at all to be honest.  I found the Braille vastly inferior to that of the Brailliant.

All that said, I absolutely agree that, for some people, these machines are worth the investment.  There are times when it would be very useful to have everything in one box.

Dane's example of sitting on the couch interests me.  I'm doing that right now ... and I have the Brailiant and our MacBook Pro on my lap with no problems.  I can read the display easily and it's in perfect focus.

Actually, speaking personally, our sofa has reclining seats at either end, and our armchair has an electrical recliner.  You can tilt the seats up and down, raise and lower the back of the seats, and also bring up a leg-rest.  But the point I'm trying to make here is that I find it extremely comfortable and convenient using both machines at once.

Yes, again, Dane is quite right that it's down to personal choice and taste.  But I personally try to stay with main stream equipment where possible.  Just my approach, of course.  But I don't like using machines which my visually abled better half couldn't use.

Interesting observations though.  But I wouldn't swap my Humanware Brailliant for anything that I've seen from Freedom.  Personally I didn't like the Pacmate at all when I saw one.


On 13 Apr 2010, at 21:53, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi!

Over the past 6 weeks it has been my pleasure! to try 2 different Personal data Assistants which have been designed for the deaf-blind so I thought I'd discuss these and perhaps my thoughts will encourage others to come forward with comments as I know there are several people on list who use Braille displays for example and a Braille display is a centre piece of the 2 units I'm going to discuss, The unit from Freedom Scientific and the unit from Human ware.

So to the first question, why have a personal data assistant at all when one can purchase a notebook computer along with a Braille display? I asked the same question myself until seeing a Personal data Assistant, the difference in size pretty much puts the question to rest, - when sitting on a couch trying to read the news paper with a Braille display and notebook, see how you go juggling 2 devices whereas with a PDA? Well you have both devices immediately at your fingertips on your knee.

Yes, there's no doubt that the 2 PDA products I'm going to discuss are expensive but if you're able to get hold of one then I'd still recommend it given the power you get out of these things and perhaps my reasoning will be further clarified as you read on.

I like to think that I'm taking an open mind in this discussion when it comes to both the products I used, both have advantages and disadvantages over each other and indeed! over a conventional computer system and its up to you to buy what you consider what's best for you rather than what other people consider is right for you.

The first PDA I tried was the incredibly versatile Omni BX400 from Freedom Scientific which was teamed together with a Pacmat PM20 20 cell Braille display, you can buy the Omni on its own and choose your display at a later point - either a 20 or 40 cell display - or you can buy the Omni pre-configured with a display, the display removes for the Omni for even better portability and reduction in size.  The Pacmate display will work with another computer including Windows and Mac.

I like the scroll wheels on the Pacmate, a "must have" when wanting to quickly scroll through text, wheels are customisable so you can have them set to perform other functions than scrolling.  Didn't like the layout of the buttons on the display though, right above each cursor routing button is a "display hotkey", like the scroll wheels these can also be programmed to perform various tasks or change settings.  These "hotkeys" may be convenient in theory but I found that I'd accidentally tap one instead of a cursor routing button, something I'd get used to perhaps? Well may be though the whole thing annoyed me more than once <smile>.

And so to the Omni itself, speech is clear and perfectly audible through the very nice internal speaker less than half an inch round, yep only one speaker here and this may be a problem depending on your hearing.  Opposite the speaker on the right-hand side of the Omni is the internal microphone which can be used with Skype and other recording software.

The Omni runs the latest edition of Windows Mobile so if you've used a phone or another PDA using the Windows Mobile operating system then using the Omni will be second nature to you.  If you're new to Windows Mobile then there's a bit of a learning kerb which the included version of JAWS can help you with by giving you extra instructions as to what the "Softkeys" do at any one time and in any open applications - "Softkeys" are those keys or buttons on mobile phones or PDA"s which change function according to the application or task at hand, m- when in the mail application the "softkeys" may perform the "Send mail" and "Cancel" functions respectively or perhaps when in the calendar the "Softkeys" may be assigned the functions of "New appointment" and "New To-Do" -, ost mobile devices have at least 2 "Softkeys".

I find the approach that Freedom Scientific have taken to the design and concepts for the Omni fascinating, Windows Mobile is installed as is so in other words what you get with Windows Mobile is exactly what you see on the Omni and I'm delighted to say that every Windows Mobile application I tried was perfectly accessible through JAWS and that's nice.

Having said all that however you do need a novice pilots licence to operate many of the functions of this product and the manual goes all over the place, I was left wondering just how many people know everything there is to offer about the Omni? Probably not many.

I found applications that didn't work as they should, the FS Daisy Reader for example wouldn't allow me to navigate headings.

Freedom Scientific maintains a very nice support page for the Omni and Pacmate which brings me to one of the biggest grips I have about the Omni, it does not come "Network Ready" and by that I mean you have to pay extra to have the device connect to the Internet or to your home network in the form of a wireless flash card.  This was a great surprise to me as all the PDA's I know of are ready to connect to a Network and Internet out of the box and I think that people are paying enough for an Omni as is without having to shell out another couple of hundred dollars for a Wi-Fi Network Compact flash card.

The Braille keyboard of the Omni needs a complete redesign, the keys are spring loaded and they make an all mighty racket when pressed, hardly helpful if you take the device to lectures, can only wonder how long the springs will last before they break.

If you' plan to use the Omni with a Mac then forget it, I can't think of a single way you'd be able to synchronise your information on the Mac with this device, there may be a way of accessing Mobile Me and syncing the 2 machines that way but I don't know of one.

I was proud to be able to test the Human Ware Braillenote Apex which has only ben available for 3 months, I consider this machine an outstanding! PDA.

Its lighter, thinner and less bulky than the Omni but offers so much more for around the same price.

, a different approach has been taken to the design of the Braillenote, we're looking here at a product which - whilst running Windows C - has been designed for the deaf-blind person from the ground up.  For example, the Word Processing package has ben designed for blind people rather than an off-the-shelf product such as Microsoft Office and then leaving accessibility to a screen reader.  This approach has its obvious advantages in that access to all function can be made in a user friendly way.

No pilots licence required to rive this beautiful machine, the menu system is well laid out and easy to get to, no complex button presses and no knowledge of how an operating system works is required, in fact very little knowledge of how a computer works is needed.

The Braille display is sharper and easier to read than that of the Pacmate, it also seemed to me that the dots were larger.

The Braillenote has a scroll wheel, its positioned above the spacebar, a little unusual I thought when I first saw it but it didn't take me long to get used to it and if the scroll wheel isn't for you then there are 4 buttons on the front of the machine which can be configured to mimic the wheel.

A pleasure to use the Braille keyboard on the Braillenote, soft, firm but yet responsive and quiet.

Connectivity options abound, connect the Braillenote to your Mac and use the Braillenote as a Braille keyboard for the computer.  Connect a QWERTY keyboard to the Braillenote, connect a monitor to the Braillenote so that those with sight can see what you're doing etc, 3 USB ports are available plus 1 sync USB port.

I didn't find any problems whatever in the software. everything performed as I expected it should without any hitches.

Love the "Book Reader", will read just about anything and I'm told that Humanware have plans to further enhance this function, Audible books are fully supported.

Excellent audio quality both through the 2 stereo internal speakers and headphones.  Recording is good through the built-in microphone and recording is further enhanced by a convenient 1-touch "record" button which can be accessed anywhere and at any time in the Braillenote.  Recording anything with the Omni is a pain in the bum as you have to set up all your parameters, decide on what recording software you're going to use, download and install that software and so on.  By default the quality of the recording function in the Braillenote is good enough for voice recordings, lectures, memos and so on and the settings can be changed, both Braillenote and Omni allow for the connection of an external microphone/headset which can be purchased at your local mobile phone accessaries supplier.

Both Omni and Braillenote have Bluetooth facilities though you'll need to purchase an extra bluetooth flash card to get the Bluetooth functioning with the Omni, Braillenote has the bluetooth receiver built-in.

Braillenote comes ready to connect to your network or Internet, the machine has an Ethernet port or you can use the "Wi-Fi" facility.

I think this will do for now, obviously I haven't covered everything so if anyone has any further questions then don't hesitate to ask.

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 23:30:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:30:11 +1000
Subject: Digital Radio
In-Reply-To: <18A4572E-07AF-46EF-BDBB-C427CD3EA365@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<18A4572E-07AF-46EF-BDBB-C427CD3EA365@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <83372FD3-41B8-43C1-ABD1-47F0831DBCA3@internode.on.net>

Pardon me but the rest of Europe and Canad are not using your DAB standard, they are using DAB+ so i naffect the U.K. are - at the moment - just about on their own.


On 14/04/2010, at 7:27 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> Actually, I believe that Canada does it the way we do, and certainly the rest of Europe does.  I.e., there are 2 adjoining bands used for digital broadcasts.  I'm not entirely sure of the frequencies off the top of my head, but I  could find out easily enough.
> 
> One band is used for video signals for station information and another band for the audio.  The multiplexers are far more efficient than just using a conventional FM or AM carrier-based system because each multiplexer can carry up to 6 signals compressed.  I'm bound to say also that those who dispute the quality of DAB as implemented in Europe need to actually try the thing before they condemn it.  By that, I'm talking about ill-informed politicians such as those Dane quoted earlier.
> 
> In actual fact, the quality of some of the stations broadcasting on digital format these days is as good as CD quality.
> 
> Indeed, there is one station which started up a short time ago around here which uses nothing but super-audio CD, I think they call it.  They're taking digital broadcasting to the next level and, if you have a surround sound system with a compatible receiver and decoder, you can get utterly awesome quality from this service.
> 
> I haven't heard it myself, but I'm told by those who have that it blows your mind!
> 
> On the subject we were discussing earlier, Gillian has just left our house.  She brought with her a new Roberts radio, as given to her by the UK charity Wireless For the Blind.
> 
> I'n bound also to say here that my Pure portable blows it away in every respect.  The Roberts kept losing signal, even though we're in an excellent signal location.  The Bilsdale transmitter mast is visible from here on a clear night, and even our local 2 meter repeater station, (GB3HG), which transmits on low power from Bilsdale, is 60DV over 9 even with a portable antenna.  Shows you how strong the digital signal must be.
> 
> The Pure DX1 tuner I also have works fine on a wall-mounted di pole, vertically polarised. On the external antenna I have mounted on the chimney, it just rocks, absolutely and totally rocks.
> 
> Of course, the drawback with DAB is that it's not possible to receive non-local services intended for reception in a given area.  Because all of the local stations use the same multiplexer frequencies, the local ones will always win.
> 
> With digital radio, (DAB), there's no such thing as a het effect, which I've often experienced with overlapping signals on the VHF band.  By the way, there is no such thing as an FM band. :-)
> 
> FM can be used at any frequency although, obviously, it's often mistaken for a band name rather than a class of emission because as Dane rightly says the VHF broadcast band is now almost entirely globally standardised.
> 
> This brings to mind another point on what's turning into a very interesting discussion.  If memory serves, when the Sydney Olympics took place back in ... what was it ... 2000?  I believe that New South Wales radio amateurs lost the use of their 70CM band, between 430 and 440 MHZ I think they had at the time, as we do.
> 
> Apparently, the Australian government, after the games were over, decided not to return the allocation to the amateur community, preferring instead to cash in and sell that part of the spectrum to commercial operators wishing to license PMR.
> 
> I also understand that the changeover went national in 2001, so all Australian amateurs were up in arms for a while.
> 
> Does anybody know what happened about that?  Did they get the frequency allocation back?  I know there was a big campaign to try and win it back and the Radio Society of Great Britain apparently also lent its support to their Australian counterparts.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 19:59, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	In the United States, we have both digital AM and
> digital FM broadcasting but there is presently no dedicated
> digital broadcasting band. The National Association of
> Broadcasters or NAB wanted and were able to develop something
> called IBOC which stands for In-Band On-Channel. It seems like the UK has
> its own special band for digital radio.
> 
> 	There was much debate in the United States as to whether
> to use a separate band or in-band on-channel as that technology
> is much more complex.  Today, as
> you tune across the AM band, you may notice that some of the
> stations have a lot of hiss just above and below their
> frequency. They are using the one and only IBOC technology
> approved for digital AM Radio. It reportedly gives FM Stereo
> quality sound to an AM signal as long as you are getting a
> strong enough signal to receive the digital data.
> 
> 	On FM, as you tune across that band, you notice that
> some of the stations have a buzzing sound just above and below
> the channel. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner running. This is
> the IBOC digital carrier for that station. That gives you at
> least 2 CD-quality stereo programs plus some low-speed data for
> song titles although the Radio Data Service also gives you that
> if you have a suitably-equipped receiver.
> 
> 	Both the AM and FM digital standard in the United States
> buffer 8 seconds of audio so radio stations delay their main
> channel programming by 8 seconds. This means that if you are
> listening to the digital version of the main channel and you
> move in to a weak signal spot and loose the digital carrier,
> your radio drops in to analog mode but you still hear the same
> sound you were listening to before the dropout. The quality
> degrades to whatever the analog channel sounds like at the
> moment but you don't miss any of the sound as long as you can
> still receive the main channel.
> 
> 	The marketing talk by the NAB calls digital AM and FM HD
> or High Definition radio. After all, we have high definition
> digital television so it is similar terminology.
> 
> 	Digital AM/FM radios are in shops at
> prices that are not the least bit excessive. I personally do not
> yet own one and I don't know how accessible they are but it
> sounds like at least some of them are as accessible as any AM
> and FM radio. As much as I love technology and new toys, the
> quality of the content of commercial radio is truly lame most of
> the time and all the interesting programming from our NPR
> affiliate is on their main channel so buying a digital radio is
> not high on my bucket list although I probably will break down
> and get one one of these days.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 23:32:45 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:32:45 +1000
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
In-Reply-To: <A121B62F-EB36-48D0-9ECA-0F2C8F6BA05F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201004131940.o3DJelFv042808@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<A121B62F-EB36-48D0-9ECA-0F2C8F6BA05F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CE267BEA-B384-4740-A378-05C72E8525B8@internode.on.net>

Our analogue TV bands are interesting, 69MHZ right up to nearly 280MHZ - obviously the TV signals only cover parts of that spectrum allocation - Channel 2 for example ist at around 69MHZ, channel 3 just below 92MHZ and so on, this has meant some reshuffling over the years to avoid obvious interference with the FM broadcast band and so on so stations have been moved to the UHF band, 480MHZ but I don't know what the upper limit is.


On 14/04/2010, at 7:36 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> The old 41 MHZ band was ditched in the late 60s or early 70s.  We now use 512 MHZ for TV transmissions, and that's the area which differs slightly from radio signals because, as I understand it, the digital multiplexers are in a very close frequency range to where the analogue is.
> 
> Actually, quite a few analogue transmitters of TV signals have already been turned off over here, and the switch-over will be complete by the middle of 2012.  Meaning that all those old analogue TVs and VCRs will be bricks.
> 
> On the subject of VCRs, most of the big manufacturers have announced their intention to stop manufacturing VCR/DVD/HDTV combis at the end of this year.  It's already very difficult to find a stand-alone VCR here nowadays.
> 
> The reason is obvious, of course.  As I said, we're moving from analogue to digital and there is little point producing a VCR with a digital tuner.  Given the switch is so close, nobody is buying analogue TVs any more and, actually, they were withdrawn from the UK market late in 2008.
> 
> So I guess you could say ... times they are a changing. :-)
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 20:40, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
> UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
> the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
> the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
> few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
> excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
> around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
> 405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
> World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
> carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
> They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
> Highway Patrol.
> 
> 	I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
> transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
> everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
> in the eighties.
> 
> 	We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
> the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
> frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
> the other.
> 
> 	While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
> amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
> found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
> officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
> odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
> about daily life.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> 
> Gordon Smith writes:
>> The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services 
>> transponder downlinks were move to UHF.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 23:38:34 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:38:34 +0100
Subject: Digital Radio
In-Reply-To: <83372FD3-41B8-43C1-ABD1-47F0831DBCA3@internode.on.net>
References: <201004131859.o3DIxv1R042478@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<18A4572E-07AF-46EF-BDBB-C427CD3EA365@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<83372FD3-41B8-43C1-ABD1-47F0831DBCA3@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <EBB8247B-9D0D-4076-A548-F2378ACEDD3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 13 Apr 2010, at 23:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Pardon me but the rest of Europe and Canad are not using your DAB standard, they are using DAB+ so i naffect the U.K. are - at the moment - just about on their own.

I think you'll find that they're also using DAB, at least in Europe. I know that for a fact because recently Lynne's brother borrowed our DAB portable for a holiday in Germany.

It worked perfectly and it isn't DAB+, it's DAB.


On 14/04/2010, at 7:27 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> Actually, I believe that Canada does it the way we do, and certainly the rest of Europe does.  I.e., there are 2 adjoining bands used for digital broadcasts.  I'm not entirely sure of the frequencies off the top of my head, but I  could find out easily enough.
> 
> One band is used for video signals for station information and another band for the audio.  The multiplexers are far more efficient than just using a conventional FM or AM carrier-based system because each multiplexer can carry up to 6 signals compressed.  I'm bound to say also that those who dispute the quality of DAB as implemented in Europe need to actually try the thing before they condemn it.  By that, I'm talking about ill-informed politicians such as those Dane quoted earlier.
> 
> In actual fact, the quality of some of the stations broadcasting on digital format these days is as good as CD quality.
> 
> Indeed, there is one station which started up a short time ago around here which uses nothing but super-audio CD, I think they call it.  They're taking digital broadcasting to the next level and, if you have a surround sound system with a compatible receiver and decoder, you can get utterly awesome quality from this service.
> 
> I haven't heard it myself, but I'm told by those who have that it blows your mind!
> 
> On the subject we were discussing earlier, Gillian has just left our house.  She brought with her a new Roberts radio, as given to her by the UK charity Wireless For the Blind.
> 
> I'n bound also to say here that my Pure portable blows it away in every respect.  The Roberts kept losing signal, even though we're in an excellent signal location.  The Bilsdale transmitter mast is visible from here on a clear night, and even our local 2 meter repeater station, (GB3HG), which transmits on low power from Bilsdale, is 60DV over 9 even with a portable antenna.  Shows you how strong the digital signal must be.
> 
> The Pure DX1 tuner I also have works fine on a wall-mounted di pole, vertically polarised. On the external antenna I have mounted on the chimney, it just rocks, absolutely and totally rocks.
> 
> Of course, the drawback with DAB is that it's not possible to receive non-local services intended for reception in a given area.  Because all of the local stations use the same multiplexer frequencies, the local ones will always win.
> 
> With digital radio, (DAB), there's no such thing as a het effect, which I've often experienced with overlapping signals on the VHF band.  By the way, there is no such thing as an FM band. :-)
> 
> FM can be used at any frequency although, obviously, it's often mistaken for a band name rather than a class of emission because as Dane rightly says the VHF broadcast band is now almost entirely globally standardised.
> 
> This brings to mind another point on what's turning into a very interesting discussion.  If memory serves, when the Sydney Olympics took place back in ... what was it ... 2000?  I believe that New South Wales radio amateurs lost the use of their 70CM band, between 430 and 440 MHZ I think they had at the time, as we do.
> 
> Apparently, the Australian government, after the games were over, decided not to return the allocation to the amateur community, preferring instead to cash in and sell that part of the spectrum to commercial operators wishing to license PMR.
> 
> I also understand that the changeover went national in 2001, so all Australian amateurs were up in arms for a while.
> 
> Does anybody know what happened about that?  Did they get the frequency allocation back?  I know there was a big campaign to try and win it back and the Radio Society of Great Britain apparently also lent its support to their Australian counterparts.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 19:59, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	In the United States, we have both digital AM and
> digital FM broadcasting but there is presently no dedicated
> digital broadcasting band. The National Association of
> Broadcasters or NAB wanted and were able to develop something
> called IBOC which stands for In-Band On-Channel. It seems like the UK has
> its own special band for digital radio.
> 
> 	There was much debate in the United States as to whether
> to use a separate band or in-band on-channel as that technology
> is much more complex.  Today, as
> you tune across the AM band, you may notice that some of the
> stations have a lot of hiss just above and below their
> frequency. They are using the one and only IBOC technology
> approved for digital AM Radio. It reportedly gives FM Stereo
> quality sound to an AM signal as long as you are getting a
> strong enough signal to receive the digital data.
> 
> 	On FM, as you tune across that band, you notice that
> some of the stations have a buzzing sound just above and below
> the channel. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner running. This is
> the IBOC digital carrier for that station. That gives you at
> least 2 CD-quality stereo programs plus some low-speed data for
> song titles although the Radio Data Service also gives you that
> if you have a suitably-equipped receiver.
> 
> 	Both the AM and FM digital standard in the United States
> buffer 8 seconds of audio so radio stations delay their main
> channel programming by 8 seconds. This means that if you are
> listening to the digital version of the main channel and you
> move in to a weak signal spot and loose the digital carrier,
> your radio drops in to analog mode but you still hear the same
> sound you were listening to before the dropout. The quality
> degrades to whatever the analog channel sounds like at the
> moment but you don't miss any of the sound as long as you can
> still receive the main channel.
> 
> 	The marketing talk by the NAB calls digital AM and FM HD
> or High Definition radio. After all, we have high definition
> digital television so it is similar terminology.
> 
> 	Digital AM/FM radios are in shops at
> prices that are not the least bit excessive. I personally do not
> yet own one and I don't know how accessible they are but it
> sounds like at least some of them are as accessible as any AM
> and FM radio. As much as I love technology and new toys, the
> quality of the content of commercial radio is truly lame most of
> the time and all the interesting programming from our NPR
> affiliate is on their main channel so buying a digital radio is
> not high on my bucket list although I probably will break down
> and get one one of these days.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Apr 13 23:43:57 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:43:57 +0100
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
In-Reply-To: <CE267BEA-B384-4740-A378-05C72E8525B8@internode.on.net>
References: <201004131940.o3DJelFv042808@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<A121B62F-EB36-48D0-9ECA-0F2C8F6BA05F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<CE267BEA-B384-4740-A378-05C72E8525B8@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <0AC8C04E-63D0-4742-916B-54A1CE3B927C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Youch!  I don't much care for the idea of using that frequency range when it's also used for radio services.  A video signal (an analogue one I mean), is very broad banded and spews out a lot of interference towards the edge of its bands.

Also, I'd imagine PMR equipment having problems at the first harmonic, which is a multiple, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, of the frequency.  For instance, 166 MHZ is a harmonic of 88 MHZ.  Some equipment built using older phase lock loop circuitry was very vulnerable to harmonic distortion and interference.  TVs used to be notorious for that over here at one time.

It's one reason why CB and amateur radio operators had so much trouble with TV interference.

Although the stations doing the transmitting always got the blame for those problems, in actual fact it was the receiver that was at fault in 99 cases out of a hundred.

But I'm waffling now.

On 13 Apr 2010, at 23:32, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Our analogue TV bands are interesting, 69MHZ right up to nearly 280MHZ - obviously the TV signals only cover parts of that spectrum allocation - Channel 2 for example ist at around 69MHZ, channel 3 just below 92MHZ and so on, this has meant some reshuffling over the years to avoid obvious interference with the FM broadcast band and so on so stations have been moved to the UHF band, 480MHZ but I don't know what the upper limit is.


On 14/04/2010, at 7:36 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> The old 41 MHZ band was ditched in the late 60s or early 70s.  We now use 512 MHZ for TV transmissions, and that's the area which differs slightly from radio signals because, as I understand it, the digital multiplexers are in a very close frequency range to where the analogue is.
> 
> Actually, quite a few analogue transmitters of TV signals have already been turned off over here, and the switch-over will be complete by the middle of 2012.  Meaning that all those old analogue TVs and VCRs will be bricks.
> 
> On the subject of VCRs, most of the big manufacturers have announced their intention to stop manufacturing VCR/DVD/HDTV combis at the end of this year.  It's already very difficult to find a stand-alone VCR here nowadays.
> 
> The reason is obvious, of course.  As I said, we're moving from analogue to digital and there is little point producing a VCR with a digital tuner.  Given the switch is so close, nobody is buying analogue TVs any more and, actually, they were withdrawn from the UK market late in 2008.
> 
> So I guess you could say ... times they are a changing. :-)
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 20:40, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
> UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
> the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
> the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
> few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
> excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
> around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
> 405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
> World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
> carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
> They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
> Highway Patrol.
> 
> 	I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
> transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
> everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
> in the eighties.
> 
> 	We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
> the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
> frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
> the other.
> 
> 	While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
> amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
> found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
> officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
> odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
> about daily life.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> 
> Gordon Smith writes:
>> The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services 
>> transponder downlinks were move to UHF.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Apr 14 15:40:39 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:40:39 -0500
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
Message-ID: <201004141440.o3EEednt048266@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I will give you a brief run-down on what happened in the
US over the last year regarding television. Our VHF and UHF
television allocation is actually 3 bands. Channels 2-6 is 54
through 88 MHZ. Channels 7-13 which is 174 through 216 MHZ and
finally, Channels 14-59 which is 470-700 MHZ.

	There actually once was a Channel 1 which briefly came
in to use shortly after the end of World War II and it ran from
44 MHZ through 50 MHZ. Interestingly, that also overlapped the
pre World War II FM broadcast band which went from 42 through 48
MHZ. Channel 1 was supposed to be a low-power public service
channel because of its sharing with the FM Broadcast band and
all that Sporadic E skip which it was perfectly situated for.

	By the time I was born in 1951, Channel 1 was history.

	The US television channels stayed pretty much the same
with minor tweaks from the late forties until today. For that
matter, the signals up until the digital conversion were
backwardly compatible in that color video had to be receivable
on a monochrome set as monochrome, of course.

	If one had a post-World-War II television in working
condition on February 17 of 2009, it would have still gotten
picture and sound on Channels 2 through 13.

	In the Fall and Winter of 2008, we were absolutely
drowning in announcements warning the 12% of the public who gets
TV via antenna that on February 17, their sets would go dark.

	Polititions began messing about as they always like to
do and a last-minute further postponement until June 12 was
rammed through Congress. The problem was that about 40% of the
television operators in the United States had already scheduled
expensive tower work so they could go ahead with the switch.

	So, if one still got analog TV via antenna, many
familiar channels went away on February 17, anyway.

	Even more ridiculous, every television market had to
keep at least one analog channel on the air for 30 days after
the June 12 date to tell the Martians who had just landed and
hadn't heard why all the analog TV was gone
how to watch TV again.

	Finally, on July 12, it was all done. A very few digital
television operators chose to stay on Channels 2-6. Most are now
on VHF 7-13 or UHF 14-59. Some low-power community television
stations are still analog and are allowed to continue but in
this part of the world, one hears nothing between 54 and 88 MHZ
and only digital hiss on all other channels except for a
low-power UHF  channels which still are analog.

	As a ham, I now love to listen to the audio carrier
frequencies of Channels 2 through 6 during Sporadic E openings
because they are now free of local signals. Canada and Mexico
and all the other countries in the Americas are still analog so
we sometimes hear distant signals.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> The old 41 MHZ band was ditched in the late 60s or early 70s.  We now use 
> 512 MHZ for TV transmissions, and that's the area which differs slightly 
> from radio signals because, as I understand it, the digital multiplexers 
> are in a very close frequency range to where the analogue is.
> 
> Actually, quite a few analogue transmitters of TV signals have already 
> been turned off over here, and the switch-over will be complete by the 
> middle of 2012.  Meaning that all those old analogue TVs and VCRs will be 
> bricks.
> 
> On the subject of VCRs, most of the big manufacturers have announced 
> their intention to stop manufacturing VCR/DVD/HDTV combis at the end of 
> this year.  It's already very difficult to find a stand-alone VCR here 
> nowadays.
> 
> The reason is obvious, of course.  As I said, we're moving from analogue 
> to digital and there is little point producing a VCR with a digital 
> tuner.  Given the switch is so close, nobody is buying analogue TVs any 
> more and, actually, they were withdrawn from the UK market late in 2008.
> 
> So I guess you could say ... times they are a changing. :-)
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 20:40, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>         Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
> UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
> the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
> the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
> few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
> excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
> around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
> 405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
> World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
> carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
> They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
> Highway Patrol.
> 
>         I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
> transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
> everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
> in the eighties.
> 
>         We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
> the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
> frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
> the other.
> 
>         While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
> amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
> found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
> officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
> odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
> about daily life.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> 
> Gordon Smith writes:
> > The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services
> > transponder downlinks were move to UHF.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 
> April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 
> April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Apr 14 16:08:54 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:08:54 -0500
Subject: More Spectrum Usage Oddities
Message-ID: <201004141508.o3EF8sbZ048419@x.it.okstate.edu>

	In all this discussion, I almost forgot a couple of
interesting things. In the low VHF television channel lineup,
There is a short gap between VHF Television Channel 4 and
Television Channel 5. Channel 5 starts at 76 MHZ and Channel 4
ends at 72 MHZ. There is a 4 MHZ band between 72 and 76 MHZ used
for special purposes. There are RC model planes and other
remotely-controlled toys as well as broadcast cuing units, some
aviation beacons and point-to-point radio links. Broadcast cuing
units are little transmitters set up by broadcasters at public
events to cue personnel. What you usually hear is the program
audio interrupted by director commands such as "Bring up the
crowd mik." They may also be the input feed for the ear pieces
warn by the on-air presenters at the event, etc. There are also
wireless sound augmentation systems so that hard-of-hearing
people can more easily listen to the public address systems in
classrooms and auditoriums. This is an interesting range to
listen to in a large city or on a college campus. One is likely
to hear just about anything.

	When there is Sporadic E, that little band fills with
all kinds of signals.

	With most of the analog television gone from Channels 4
and 5, there is a move to get an amateur allocation in North
America at 70.5 MHZ. While it doesn't match the European
allocation at 4 meters, it is close so we would be able to
experience a band between 6 and 2 meters.

	I probably had better get back to doing some productive
work for now.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Apr 14 16:32:03 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:32:03 +0100
Subject: UK FM and Times Gone by 
In-Reply-To: <201004141409.o3EE9Wu7090547@dc.cis.okstate.edu>
References: <201004141409.o3EE9Wu7090547@dc.cis.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <67E4F82D-251E-4319-8370-E8833F5CAC49@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Thjis came to me privately for some reason, not sure it was meant too.

It justy shows the differences in formats and systems globally.  IO'm not suggesting one is better than another because the topography makes it the best system for a given location.

The UK is comparatively small, by US and Australasian standards.  Therefore, the methods of broadcasting and even the locations at which broadcasting is done can be, and are different.

For instance, in the world of radio there is no stereo AM, and never has been in my memory, here in the UK.  We use FM which, for our purposes, is the better option.

But times are changing and digital is becoming more and more popular.  We do have satellite and cable services widely available.  But there are still a majority who use free-to-air antenna-based services, such as the BBC and ITV or ILR services.

B Sky B, (British Sky Broadcasting) is our biggest satellite provider.  They actually used to be one of 2 companies providing satellite services.  In those days, they were just called "Sky".

They eventually swallowed their rival company, BSB, and all those customers who had bought BSB compatible equipment were left with a "Squareal", and a brick which used to be a satellite box.

Sky started out as the baby of an Australian media empire actually.  Well, that's not quite true.  He had a large share in the company, but I don't think he founded it.  He no longer has shares though as he was pushed out.

Actually I think he died a while ago.  I'm talking about Roupet Merdock.

He was also quite big in the US media I believe at one time.  But Sky, his pet UK venture, out-grew him and there was an horrendous legal battle when he was pushed out of the company, which he duly lost.

As I said yesterday, all analogue TV transmissions in the UK will cease as of the middle of 2012.  To a large extent, the switchover is already just about complete anyway.  No stores are selling analogue TV's any more, you just cannot buy them even if you wanted too.

VCR machines are also now very difficult, although not yet impossible, to obtain.  Actually, the market was flooded for a while and, if you look in certain places, still is, with what were top of the range expensive models which never sold.  You can pick one up which used to cost ober 400 Pounds for under 50 Pounds now in some shops.

Bit pointless really though in my opinion, as you'll only get a few months use out of it at best.

Sure, you can use them for dubging archived material from video and that sort of thing. But even that doesn't always work properly.

Gordon


On 14 Apr 2010, at 15:09, Martin McCormick wrote:

	I will give you a brief run-down on what happened in the
US over the last year regarding television. Our VHF and UHF
television allocation is actually 3 bands. Channels 2-6 is 54
through 88 MHZ. Channels 7-13 which is 174 through 216 MHZ and
finally, Channels 14-59 which is 470-700 MHZ.

	There actually once was a Channel 1 which briefly came
in to use shortly after the end of World War II and it ran from
44 MHZ through 50 MHZ. Interestingly, that also overlapped the
pre World War II FM broadcast band which went from 42 through 48
MHZ. Channel 1 was supposed to be a low-power public service
channel because of its sharing with the FM Broadcast band and
all that Sporadic E skip which it was perfectly situated for.

	By the time I was born in 1951, Channel 1 was history.

	The US television channels stayed pretty much the same
with minor tweaks from the late forties until today. For that
matter, the signals up until the digital conversion were
backwardly compatible in that color video had to be receivable
on a monochrome set as monochrome, of course.

	If one had a post-World-War II television in working
condition on February 17 of 2009, it would have still gotten
picture and sound on Channels 2 through 13.

	In the Fall and Winter of 2008, we were absolutely
drowning in announcements warning the 12% of the public who gets
TV via antenna that on February 17, their sets would go dark.

	Polititions began messing about as they always like to
do and a last-minute further postponement until June 12 was
rammed through Congress. The problem was that about 40% of the
television operators in the United States had already scheduled
expensive tower work so they could go ahead with the switch.

	So, if one still got analog TV via antenna, many
familiar channels went away on February 17, anyway.

	Even more ridiculous, every television market had to
keep at least one analog channel on the air for 30 days after
the June 12 date to tell the Martians who had just landed and
hadn't heard why all the analog TV was gone
how to watch TV again.

	Finally, on July 12, it was all done. A very few digital
television operators chose to stay on Channels 2-6. Most are now
on VHF 7-13 or UHF 14-59. Some low-power community television
stations are still analog and are allowed to continue but in
this part of the world, one hears nothing between 54 and 88 MHZ
and only digital hiss on all other channels except for a
low-power UHF  channels which still are analog.

	As a ham, I now love to listen to the audio carrier
frequencies of Channels 2 through 6 during Sporadic E openings
because they are now free of local signals. Canada and Mexico
and all the other countries in the Americas are still analog so
we sometimes hear distant signals.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> The old 41 MHZ band was ditched in the late 60s or early 70s.  We now use 
> 512 MHZ for TV transmissions, and that's the area which differs slightly 
> from radio signals because, as I understand it, the digital multiplexers 
> are in a very close frequency range to where the analogue is.
> 
> Actually, quite a few analogue transmitters of TV signals have already 
> been turned off over here, and the switch-over will be complete by the 
> middle of 2012.  Meaning that all those old analogue TVs and VCRs will be 
> bricks.
> 
> On the subject of VCRs, most of the big manufacturers have announced 
> their intention to stop manufacturing VCR/DVD/HDTV combis at the end of 
> this year.  It's already very difficult to find a stand-alone VCR here 
> nowadays.
> 
> The reason is obvious, of course.  As I said, we're moving from analogue 
> to digital and there is little point producing a VCR with a digital 
> tuner.  Given the switch is so close, nobody is buying analogue TVs any 
> more and, actually, they were withdrawn from the UK market late in 2008.
> 
> So I guess you could say ... times they are a changing. :-)
> 
> 
> On 13 Apr 2010, at 20:40, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>        Thanks. There must have been a lot of big changes going on in the
> UK during the mid eighties. I have fond memories of listening to
> the BBC Band-I or 1 television signals between 41 and 45 MHZ in
> the late seventies and very early eighties. I also heard them a
> few times in 1970 during the previous Solar peak. One could hear
> excellent audio at times in AM from various BBC transmitters
> around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This was the old
> 405-line monochrome system that actually dated back to before
> World War II. On some days in the late seventies, the video
> carriers around 45 MHZ were also strong here in the central US.
> They really shredded the radio communications of our state's
> Highway Patrol.
> 
>        I remember hearing that the UK finally shut those band-1
> transmitters down in 1985. By that time, I imagine that
> everybody had moved up to the VHF and UHF TV channels that existed
> in the eighties.
> 
>        We could also hear the French band-1 system audio when
> the BBC was coming in. The French signals were a little lower in
> frequency so one could listen to one without interference from
> the other.
> 
>        While this was lots of fun for those of us who like
> amateur radio and short wave listening, I am sure that what we
> found interesting, television viewers in the UK and police
> officers here simply groused at the disrupted video or all those
> odd whistles and buzzes on their radios as they tried to go
> about daily life.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> 
> Gordon Smith writes:
>> The broadcast band was extended in 1984 when the emergency services
>> transponder downlinks were move to UHF.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 
> April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the group since 12 
> April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Apr 14 17:31:30 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:31:30 +0100
Subject: More Spectrum Usage Oddities
In-Reply-To: <201004141508.o3EF8sbZ048419@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201004141508.o3EF8sbZ048419@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <9B0F5D32-2C2F-4946-87B0-EE7A12C7251A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Just a quick note to say that over here, 6 and 4 meter bands exist for amateur use.  But the entire spectrum allocation is under review at the moment and the chances are the government will sell a lot of our bands off to the highest commercial bidder.

On 14 Apr 2010, at 16:08, Martin McCormick wrote:

	In all this discussion, I almost forgot a couple of
interesting things. In the low VHF television channel lineup,
There is a short gap between VHF Television Channel 4 and
Television Channel 5. Channel 5 starts at 76 MHZ and Channel 4
ends at 72 MHZ. There is a 4 MHZ band between 72 and 76 MHZ used
for special purposes. There are RC model planes and other
remotely-controlled toys as well as broadcast cuing units, some
aviation beacons and point-to-point radio links. Broadcast cuing
units are little transmitters set up by broadcasters at public
events to cue personnel. What you usually hear is the program
audio interrupted by director commands such as "Bring up the
crowd mik." They may also be the input feed for the ear pieces
warn by the on-air presenters at the event, etc. There are also
wireless sound augmentation systems so that hard-of-hearing
people can more easily listen to the public address systems in
classrooms and auditoriums. This is an interesting range to
listen to in a large city or on a college campus. One is likely
to hear just about anything.

	When there is Sporadic E, that little band fills with
all kinds of signals.

	With most of the analog television gone from Channels 4
and 5, there is a move to get an amateur allocation in North
America at 70.5 MHZ. While it doesn't match the European
allocation at 4 meters, it is close so we would be able to
experience a band between 6 and 2 meters.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Apr 15 13:51:55 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:51:55 +0100
Subject: Zapping The Backup
Message-ID: <1A5E28EF-8740-4746-8C0F-E3D28F03EA75@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Alright, I am totally out of the loop where Windows is concerned.  But I've just set up a VM on our MBP and am also doing a laptop refurbishment for a client.

Does anybody know how or even whether it's possible to zap the backup files which are created when you install a Windows service release update?

The laptop is for specific use in graphics design and the client wants to maximise storage space to a premium.

Windows is, as we all know, messy beyond the point of humour.  Temporary and cache files are left scattered around all over the joint,and you can often save hundreds of megabytes by removing them.

Gordon



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Apr 15 17:56:25 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:56:25 +0100
Subject: Anybody looking to buy Windows online, any version
Message-ID: <F7D21CBC-192C-4617-9986-25E8C3108A7D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

If anybody happens to be looking for a retailer selling Windows online, there is now such a place and they're selling it at up to 35% discount over what you'd pay in store.

They're absolutely genuine, Microsoft approved.  You get your Windows DVD or CD as an image which is downloadable, and your unique activation key is emailed to you within around half an hour.

Our friend Gillian has just had us buy Windows 7 for her, as she needed Windows for the course she's starting.  So I decided that, since we're going to need to publish DAISy, and since it's become clear that we cannot do so under OSX because the publishing tools we need simply don't exist, I bought us a copy of 7 64-bit as well.

I got the key within 20 minutes for Gillian and also for ourselves. And, sure enough, they're selling it at a massive 33% less than the recommended retail price.

The URL for this site is:
http://www.windows-warehouse.com

Just thought I'd mention it.

Lynne



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Apr 16 09:15:44 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:15:44 +0100
Subject: Anybody out there using Verizon.net?
Message-ID: <6D421A41-B619-40A5-A5F4-1E5FF842D777@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

I know, this breaks the rules!  And I consider myself duly chastised.

But is there anybody out there using Verizon.net as their provider who would be willing to assist me with a couple of quick tests?  If so, would you please contact me off list, so I can explain further.

It must be a Verizon customer.

Thank you.

Gordon



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Apr 16 16:03:08 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:03:08 +0100
Subject: Windows 7
Message-ID: <20BE701A-5C71-40D9-9B6B-EACD47F1FA99@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Does anybody happen to have any experiences, positive or otherwise, with Windows 7?  I now need to use this OS for professional reasons and I'm quaking in my shoes, I cannot deny.

I flatly refused to use Vista, as I know from bitter experience the problems it brings.  XP Pro was an option but, given that this thing had to be bought new, it didn't make a lot of sense to go that route as Microsoft are just itching to remove support for the OS.  It's rumoured that they're trying to bring forward the 2014 support termination date to next year.

So, using Windows Warehouse, Lynne bought me a copy of Windows 7 64-bit yesterday which I plan to use either in a virtual machine or as a stand-alone installation on one of our Macs.  Stand-alone, as in Boot Camp.

So, does anybody have any comments and/or experience?  This isn't a route I'd have gone by choice.  But Teesside Graphics now require support for both Windows and Mac, and I feel an obligation to honour their request as they've been so incredibly good to me since we joined forced.

Gordon



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Apr 18 21:58:48 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:58:48 +0100
Subject: GW Micro & Humanware Support worse than useless!
Message-ID: <80D2BCDD-6DB1-4CF5-AA2A-7D69E900AA4E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Last week on 3 occasions I tried to contact both GW Micro and Humanware support regarding the issue of drivers for Windows for Gordon's Brailliant 40 display. In neither case did I receive any response whatsoever.

So, whatever happened to GW Micros's self-proclaimed "World-Class Support"? They seem to think that world-class support is simply a matter of ignorance. If that's how they treat their customers these days, we clearly made the right choice when we turned our backs on GW Micro's products in favour of Apple's.

However, as somebody who legally bought Window-Eyes and, for many years, backed GW's corner in the constant battle of the screen-readers, I think Gordon deserves to be treated with a little more respect by GW Micro than simple ignorance.

Alright, it wasn't him directly that contacted them; but it's interesting that, when I used an alternative email address masquerading as a new potential customer, the same support people got back to me within 20 minutes.

As for Humanware, it seems they too have similar policies in place. They just don't bother replying to technical support emails if there's no money in it for them. A fake message to their sales department enquiring as to the possibility of buying 1 of their note takers yielded the same astonishingly fast results.

So, on to my question which, if I'm lucky, somebody might know the answer too. For reasons which I won't bore the group with right now, we need to use a version of Windows which is 64-bit. Hence my query. I know that Window-Eyes is compatible with Windows 7 64-bit. That's great. But what I'm trying to establish now is whether there are Brailliant drivers that work in the 64-bit environment?

The drivers we have on the CD that came with Gordon's almost 2-year-old Brailliant 40 are still the most current ones it seems. And so we don't think they'll support Windows 7 64-bit, even if they work in the 32-bit version.

Does anybody happen to have any more current information on this point?

Thank you.

Lynne



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Apr 25 21:31:33 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:31:33 +0100
Subject: Windows Boot DVD
Message-ID: <0B1A29F0-A291-4E54-9BD9-6831F3FBAAF5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Anybody know of a tool which can create a boot DVD for Windows?  Specially, I have a 64-bit ISO of Windows 7 which I *need* to get running for work reasons.  But so far, I cannot find a way to make the damned thing bootable.

Microsoft, in their incredible insane stupidity, sell Windows 7 on line with 2 choice for download. Either you get a collection of files in cabinet format and a couple of executables and you build your own boot loader that's Windows 7 and Vista compatible, or you download an uncompressed ISO which is a collection of all of the necessary files in an image ready to be burned to DVD.  Except for that small oversight of the DVD not being bootable.

Windows Vista and later no longer uses the old method of boot block that XP and earlier used.  They now use a custom boot loader which won't work on any earlier version of Windows.  This problem, for me at least, is compounded by the fact that what we have is a full version of 7, not an upgrade, and it's 64-bit.  Microsoft's so-called boot disk creator tool only works within a previous version of Windows, and only on the correct compilation.  I.e., if you're running Windows XP 32-bit, you can, theoretically, create a 32-bit boot loader and burn the necessary DVD for Windows Vista and 7 32-bit.

If you need to use 64-bit Windows, you need to create the DVD using a previous 64-bit version of XP or Vista.  Since we bought a full, not an upgrade copy, you'd expect it to be bootable, as it's design for a from the ground up installation.

But apparently, Microsoft don't share that logic.  They automatically assume the fact that the user has a previous 64-bit version of Windows, even if they've bought a full version of 7.  Absolutely ludicrous, ridiculous, insane, mental, brain-dead.  Effectively, it's a soft-bvrick!

Anyway, does anybody happen to have a work-around for this insane situation?

Gordon



From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Apr 25 21:43:07 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:43:07 +0100
Subject: Just a reminder if anybody is interested
Message-ID: <62E7CFF2-A862-4E76-954D-5BE42DCA74EB@tft-bbs.com>

Hi all

Just a remind if anybody would like them.  We are now in a position to offer free and virtually unrestricted (quota-free) E-Mail addresses if anybody would like them under the following domains:

mac-access.net, (part of the Mac Accessibility Network).
tft-bbs.co.uk
tft-bbs.com
tft-bbs.net
tft-bbs.org
tft-bbs.org.uk
or, if we already host a top level domain for you, you may request as many addresses as you need.

We can also offer free personal web hosting and very reasonably priced commercial web space.  Please contact us for details.

Sorry folks about the off-topic ad, we promise this is a one-off. :-)

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Apr 26 18:09:28 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:09:28 +0100
Subject: Shoutcast DNAS Windows
Message-ID: <D01845AF-EDB5-4CFD-8906-191E91C4B3DB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Does anybody happen to still have the accessible version or should I say the more accessible version of this?


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Apr 30 17:30:25 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:30:25 +0100
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
Message-ID: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

How about this one for an extortion racket! Because Gordon now needs Windows 7 for work reasons, he has to use a Window-Eyes 7.11 CD to install Window-Eyes into Windows 7.

He contacted GW Micro yesterday with a view to obtaining a replacement CD as a downloadalbe image. I.e., his own licensed serial number, licensed for the current version of Window-Eyes.

We've discovered that, if you have them send you out a physiucal CD, there is a 20 Dollars charge for shipping the disk to you. That's fine, I can understand that.

But we've also just discovered that, if you have them only provide you with a downloadable version as a zipped image, there is also a charge of 20 Dollars, despite there being no physical shipment.

How on earth do they justify that? Perhaps a 10% creation fee I can understand; but the full 20 Dollars, when there is no shipping media? That's outrageous!

It seems that, no matter what, these accessibility companies are really out to make a killing where their customers are concerned. I'm just absolutely astonished.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Apr 30 22:14:43 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 07:14:43 +1000
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
In-Reply-To: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>

Sorry to sound as though I've heard it all before but I think I have <smile>.

GW Micro want $600.00 for me to upgrade from a registered copy of Window-Eyes 5.5 to Window-Eyes 7.1, that's a huge amount of money and - whilst I'm sure that Window-Eyes has made many advances over the couple of years since version 5.5 - I refuse! point blank to pay that sort of money, $100.00 or $200 yeah! I'll go along with that but $600.00?


On 01/05/2010, at 2:30 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> How about this one for an extortion racket! Because Gordon now needs Windows 7 for work reasons, he has to use a Window-Eyes 7.11 CD to install Window-Eyes into Windows 7.
> 
> He contacted GW Micro yesterday with a view to obtaining a replacement CD as a downloadalbe image. I.e., his own licensed serial number, licensed for the current version of Window-Eyes.
> 
> We've discovered that, if you have them send you out a physiucal CD, there is a 20 Dollars charge for shipping the disk to you. That's fine, I can understand that.
> 
> But we've also just discovered that, if you have them only provide you with a downloadable version as a zipped image, there is also a charge of 20 Dollars, despite there being no physical shipment.
> 
> How on earth do they justify that? Perhaps a 10% creation fee I can understand; but the full 20 Dollars, when there is no shipping media? That's outrageous!
> 
> It seems that, no matter what, these accessibility companies are really out to make a killing where their customers are concerned. I'm just absolutely astonished.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May  1 04:25:42 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 04:25:42 +0100
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
In-Reply-To: <163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>
References: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6706AB03-B22E-4536-9B5B-0DF27B17E1E3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 30 Apr 2010, at 22:14, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Sorry to sound as though I've heard it all before but I think I have <smile>.

? GW Micro want $600.00 for me to upgrade from a registered copy of Window-Eyes 5.5 to Window-Eyes 7.1, that's a huge amount of money and - whilst I'm sure that Window-Eyes has made many advances over the couple of years since version 5.5 - I refuse! point blank to pay that sort of money, $100.00 or $200 yeah! I'll go along with that but $600.00?

You always seem to forget to be specific here. :-) Are you talking Australian Dollars or US Dollars?

US Dollars; the entire price of a new copy is not much more than that. But if you're talking Australian Dollars, then I don't know off hand how much that is in US Dollars; but it certainly is over the top.

Ever since I've been involved in this sort of discussion it never has failed to amaze me how much these developers charge for their products. I'll buy the argument that there are significant development costs involved. I'll buy the argument that there is only a relatively small market because in comparison to the overall computer user community, the visually impaired user is in a very small minority.

I'll buy the argument that developers have to eat! But are they really telling us that almost 1000 Dollars US and, in some cases more than that per product per license is really justified? How can these companies justify the same shipment for a downloadable update that they charge for shipping a CD out in a fancy cover? This, to me, sounds like a racket. These prices seem to be bumped up to the point where they're just extortion, pure and simple.

As somebody with vision, I don't have to pay that for a top class monitor. That monitor had to be designed, developed, produced and manufactured. There are hundreds of different types of monitors out there; so why should I choose the monitor produced by the specific company who made ours?

That top class monitor only set me back ?100 Sterling which, once bought, gives me superb quality stunning HD simulated video. I can see the pretty pictures; I can watch the pretty graphics; I can read the text in your email. So why should blind and other disabled groups be penalised to the tune of almost 1000 Dollars for the same capability as far as it goes in terms of a screen-reader?

Not only that, but you're looking at sometimes hundreds of Dollars or Pounds for an upgrade, although I find 600 US Dollars hard to swallow. :-)

To my mind, this is nothing but extortion. If Apple can produce a product which, whatever the staunch anti-Mac Windows addict might say, works extremely well; and if Apple can bundle that product into their operating systems, not only on a notebook or desktop computer, but also on their range of mobile devices; and if Apple can do so at zero cost to the customer, why can't Microsoft do the same thing?

I just don't buy all this argument that third-party developers will always do it better. That's been totally disproven by what Apple has done. So no, it's a racket, pure and simple. The disabled have bee ripped off, conned, duped, robbed, call it what you will, for decades it would seem.

GW Micro didn't even bother to put the files they, for want of a better word, "sold" to Gordon yesterday, into a CD image. They just jumbled a host of files and folders into a zip archive and sent it along.

How do they justify a charge of 20 Dollars for that? That's shockingly poor service in my humble opinion.

Freedom Scientific and their UK dealership even resold Gordon's serial number for JFW to another customer after he'd bought one of these pathetic SMA things and refused point blank to make good their mistake.

The other customer received the SMA that Gordon had paid for, and as you know, JFW doesn't come cheap either.

Dolphin Computer Access here in the UK are just as bad. Their prices are also way way over the top and, although I haven't tried it personally, what I've heard about Hal doesn't do anything much to enthuse me.

These people that produce System Access or whatever it's called seem to be the only company developing stuff in the Windows market place for the visually impaired which seems to be reasonably priced. I gather it's also technically superior in some ways.

So what's going on here?

I'm staring out of my window as I write into the very early morning light and wondering just what this world is coming too. As a visually abled person I can now appreciate, not just from a personal point of view but also from the perspective of how others must feel, about just how badly treated the disabled are. Not just the visually impaired who, in some respects and in some countries, have it good. But the disabled in generally seem to be constantly being exploited by commerce.

The fact that their many disabilities are being used as an excuse to rake in the cash is, to me at least, somewhat repugnant.

Again, I understand that products do have to be developed. But surely the near 1000 Dollars for a piece of software simply isn't justifiable.

I'm babbling!

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat May  1 05:52:19 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 14:52:19 +1000
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
In-Reply-To: <6706AB03-B22E-4536-9B5B-0DF27B17E1E3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>
	<6706AB03-B22E-4536-9B5B-0DF27B17E1E3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AFB29F67-790F-4870-B808-F0EAC7057F9C@internode.on.net>

It doesn't matter what I'm talking these days as the dollars are about the same but yep, I was talking U.S. dollars.


On 01/05/2010, at 1:25 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 30 Apr 2010, at 22:14, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Sorry to sound as though I've heard it all before but I think I have <smile>.
> 
> ? GW Micro want $600.00 for me to upgrade from a registered copy of Window-Eyes 5.5 to Window-Eyes 7.1, that's a huge amount of money and - whilst I'm sure that Window-Eyes has made many advances over the couple of years since version 5.5 - I refuse! point blank to pay that sort of money, $100.00 or $200 yeah! I'll go along with that but $600.00?
> 
> You always seem to forget to be specific here. :-) Are you talking Australian Dollars or US Dollars?
> 
> US Dollars; the entire price of a new copy is not much more than that. But if you're talking Australian Dollars, then I don't know off hand how much that is in US Dollars; but it certainly is over the top.
> 
> Ever since I've been involved in this sort of discussion it never has failed to amaze me how much these developers charge for their products. I'll buy the argument that there are significant development costs involved. I'll buy the argument that there is only a relatively small market because in comparison to the overall computer user community, the visually impaired user is in a very small minority.
> 
> I'll buy the argument that developers have to eat! But are they really telling us that almost 1000 Dollars US and, in some cases more than that per product per license is really justified? How can these companies justify the same shipment for a downloadable update that they charge for shipping a CD out in a fancy cover? This, to me, sounds like a racket. These prices seem to be bumped up to the point where they're just extortion, pure and simple.
> 
> As somebody with vision, I don't have to pay that for a top class monitor. That monitor had to be designed, developed, produced and manufactured. There are hundreds of different types of monitors out there; so why should I choose the monitor produced by the specific company who made ours?
> 
> That top class monitor only set me back ?100 Sterling which, once bought, gives me superb quality stunning HD simulated video. I can see the pretty pictures; I can watch the pretty graphics; I can read the text in your email. So why should blind and other disabled groups be penalised to the tune of almost 1000 Dollars for the same capability as far as it goes in terms of a screen-reader?
> 
> Not only that, but you're looking at sometimes hundreds of Dollars or Pounds for an upgrade, although I find 600 US Dollars hard to swallow. :-)
> 
> To my mind, this is nothing but extortion. If Apple can produce a product which, whatever the staunch anti-Mac Windows addict might say, works extremely well; and if Apple can bundle that product into their operating systems, not only on a notebook or desktop computer, but also on their range of mobile devices; and if Apple can do so at zero cost to the customer, why can't Microsoft do the same thing?
> 
> I just don't buy all this argument that third-party developers will always do it better. That's been totally disproven by what Apple has done. So no, it's a racket, pure and simple. The disabled have bee ripped off, conned, duped, robbed, call it what you will, for decades it would seem.
> 
> GW Micro didn't even bother to put the files they, for want of a better word, "sold" to Gordon yesterday, into a CD image. They just jumbled a host of files and folders into a zip archive and sent it along.
> 
> How do they justify a charge of 20 Dollars for that? That's shockingly poor service in my humble opinion.
> 
> Freedom Scientific and their UK dealership even resold Gordon's serial number for JFW to another customer after he'd bought one of these pathetic SMA things and refused point blank to make good their mistake.
> 
> The other customer received the SMA that Gordon had paid for, and as you know, JFW doesn't come cheap either.
> 
> Dolphin Computer Access here in the UK are just as bad. Their prices are also way way over the top and, although I haven't tried it personally, what I've heard about Hal doesn't do anything much to enthuse me.
> 
> These people that produce System Access or whatever it's called seem to be the only company developing stuff in the Windows market place for the visually impaired which seems to be reasonably priced. I gather it's also technically superior in some ways.
> 
> So what's going on here?
> 
> I'm staring out of my window as I write into the very early morning light and wondering just what this world is coming too. As a visually abled person I can now appreciate, not just from a personal point of view but also from the perspective of how others must feel, about just how badly treated the disabled are. Not just the visually impaired who, in some respects and in some countries, have it good. But the disabled in generally seem to be constantly being exploited by commerce.
> 
> The fact that their many disabilities are being used as an excuse to rake in the cash is, to me at least, somewhat repugnant.
> 
> Again, I understand that products do have to be developed. But surely the near 1000 Dollars for a piece of software simply isn't justifiable.
> 
> I'm babbling!
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May  1 06:27:49 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 06:27:49 +0100
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
In-Reply-To: <AFB29F67-790F-4870-B808-F0EAC7057F9C@internode.on.net>
References: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>
	<6706AB03-B22E-4536-9B5B-0DF27B17E1E3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<AFB29F67-790F-4870-B808-F0EAC7057F9C@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <A40F4249-4E17-4209-BB9B-BE6E4F3F3680@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 1 May 2010, at 05:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? It doesn't matter what I'm talking these days as the dollars are about the same but yep, I was talking U.S. dollars.

Really! Not according to the current stock market rates they're not. But that's a mute point. I just wonder where they get these prices from. The most expensive upgrade Gordon's ever had to buy from them was $170 US and that was the last straw as far as we were concerned. So I can imagine and totally understand your reaction if you were indeed told that the upgrade would cost you $600 US.

On their website, the price of a new license is only around $899. I say only; but that's in comparison to what you were quoted. That kind of price is simply outrageous. Just as Freedom's pricing, Dolphin's pricing etc. is outrageous.

I don't know whether there is a trading standards commission in the US, but if there is an equivalent of the UK trader's watchdog, I'd be most interested to see what happened if somebody were to challenge their pricing structures.

In any event, I agree with you that $600 is disgraceful.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat May  1 06:48:17 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:48:17 +1000
Subject: Accessibility Companies really are getting worse!
In-Reply-To: <A40F4249-4E17-4209-BB9B-BE6E4F3F3680@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A876547C-E478-4D23-88C8-C0D17EFF8600@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<163BEB06-84F8-4DE0-935A-D5338AB10807@internode.on.net>
	<6706AB03-B22E-4536-9B5B-0DF27B17E1E3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<AFB29F67-790F-4870-B808-F0EAC7057F9C@internode.on.net>
	<A40F4249-4E17-4209-BB9B-BE6E4F3F3680@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <259099C9-9845-4BFE-9F69-F6454D8C5D49@internode.on.net>

I can see where you're coming from with the Fair trading and all that but I took a slightly different approach and that was to look at a couple of other screen reading solutions, the first and cheapest was NVDA, that's available absolutely free of charge though I did give the developer a $10.00 donation to at least give him a little encouragement into perhaps developing the software further which he assures me he will do, this software has advantages over Window-Eyes as Window-eyes does have advantages over it but one thing I will say in NVDA'S favour, it doesn't run scripts of any kind and its absolutely amazing the access this software gives a blind user to Windows and other software, feedback is encouraged and acted upon.

And so to my next solution which is System Access To Go, last I heard you only paid $420.0 U.S. for a copy of this excellent screen reading software and that price entitles you to a lifetime of upgrades for your investment.  If you don't have $420.00 in your hot little hands then don't fear, you can either "Rent " it for as long as you want to use it or "Pay it off" which ever you like.

Again! quite a decent Screen Reader and perfectly usable.


On 01/05/2010, at 3:27 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 1 May 2010, at 05:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? It doesn't matter what I'm talking these days as the dollars are about the same but yep, I was talking U.S. dollars.
> 
> Really! Not according to the current stock market rates they're not. But that's a mute point. I just wonder where they get these prices from. The most expensive upgrade Gordon's ever had to buy from them was $170 US and that was the last straw as far as we were concerned. So I can imagine and totally understand your reaction if you were indeed told that the upgrade would cost you $600 US.
> 
> On their website, the price of a new license is only around $899. I say only; but that's in comparison to what you were quoted. That kind of price is simply outrageous. Just as Freedom's pricing, Dolphin's pricing etc. is outrageous.
> 
> I don't know whether there is a trading standards commission in the US, but if there is an equivalent of the UK trader's watchdog, I'd be most interested to see what happened if somebody were to challenge their pricing structures.
> 
> In any event, I agree with you that $600 is disgraceful.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May  1 09:56:37 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 09:56:37 +0100
Subject: Upgrading Window-Eyes
Message-ID: <F819F93E-9FDE-4D35-8709-9F50AA75B644@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

I wanted this discussion to be fair; so I checked online. The cost of an upgrade from Window-Eyes version 5.5 to 7.1 is nowhere near $600 US, so I don't know where that comes from. I'm guessing that is Australian Dollars.

The actual price of an upgrade from Window-Eyes 5.5 to 7.1 is $325.00 US. Just over half what Dane was quoting.

It's still a very high upgrade fee and I personally wouldn't pay it. But all in all, when you consider that GW charges $170 to upgrade to version 7.11 from version 7.0, you can sort of see why it's cheaper to make the leap from 5.5.

Their typical upgrade price, according to the receipts which Gordon has here, have been:
5.5 to 6.0 = $100.00 US.

6.0 to 7.0 = $100.00 US.
7.0 to 7.1 and 7.11 = $170.00 US.

So as you can see, to upgrade from 5.5 to 7.11 is actually cheaper than the consecutive upgrades from 5.5 through 7.11 in versions as they've been released.

As I said; I just wanted this to be absolutely in context. The $600.00 US fee is total rubbish; that's nowhere near accurate.
Lynne


From gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk  Tue May  4 19:35:58 2010
From: gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk (Gillian Hadley)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:35:58 +0100
Subject: CDs what is the difference please?
Message-ID: <17446012-274A-4F15-BE79-157F6AA10152@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>

Hello group

Could somebody please explain to me the difference between a CD burned from iTunes or something like that, or even Napstor as per a shop-bought original CD? What I mean is why do some people not want CDs that came from iTunes or Napstor files that are CD quality but they are glad to get the original CDs.

I am not pulling anybody to pieces here I just want to understand the reasons.

Gillian



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed May  5 01:11:53 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:11:53 +1000
Subject: CDs what is the difference please?
In-Reply-To: <17446012-274A-4F15-BE79-157F6AA10152@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>
References: <17446012-274A-4F15-BE79-157F6AA10152@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>
Message-ID: <29CFC7D5-65CD-4156-987A-A25232C850F2@internode.on.net>

Quite a difference, when you make a CD from Itunes you're just burning  a compilation of tracks onto a CD which doesn't contain many of the charactoristics of the original CD you buy, hence if the CD is put into another computer or CD player which is compatible with an online CD database you may get incorrect readings or no readings at all!

. 
On 05/05/2010, at 4:35 AM, Gillian Hadley wrote:

> Hello group
> 
> Could somebody please explain to me the difference between a CD burned from iTunes or something like that, or even Napstor as per a shop-bought original CD? What I mean is why do some people not want CDs that came from iTunes or Napstor files that are CD quality but they are glad to get the original CDs.
> 
> I am not pulling anybody to pieces here I just want to understand the reasons.
> 
> Gillian
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed May  5 08:04:09 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 08:04:09 +0100
Subject: CDs what is the difference please?
In-Reply-To: <29CFC7D5-65CD-4156-987A-A25232C850F2@internode.on.net>
References: <17446012-274A-4F15-BE79-157F6AA10152@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>
	<29CFC7D5-65CD-4156-987A-A25232C850F2@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <32C6FF2E-7296-4FB6-A82F-F6E1C9D9CDA3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 5 May 2010, at 01:11, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Quite a difference, when you make a CD from Itunes you're just burning  a compilation of tracks onto a CD which doesn't contain many of the charactoristics of the original CD you buy, hence if the CD is put into another computer or CD player which is compatible with an online CD database you may get incorrect readings or no readings at all!

It's interesting actually because this doesn't seem to be the case with modern day software. Try it, you might get a surprise. Also, try adding the CD text.

I'm not saying you're wrong; but it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem as it used to be. And I gather you yourself are using iTunes quite a lot lately. That's a good thing, but haven't you noticed the changes?

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri May  7 07:13:05 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 07:13:05 +0100
Subject: KVM Switch
Message-ID: <BD3DA626-CA40-45BB-8F40-7CA147F396EB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

We have a number of Mac Minis that we'd like to buy a KVM switch for because it's becoming very tedious having to unplug the keyboard, mouse and display every time we want to use a different machine.

Can anybody recommend a good quality but easily available and reasonably priced KVM switch unit? Please don't recommend non-UK supplier if you know where we can get one; but model numbers might help.

The machines all have USB keyboard & mouse inputs and mini DVI (I think they call them) sockets for the display. That is to say, we have to use an adapter to convert between mini DVI and DVI for the display itself.

Any suggestions welcome.

Lynne



From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat May  8 18:44:05 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:44:05 +0100
Subject: Website Maintenance
Message-ID: <F0296519-A4A7-4336-A57B-BBB9D494FE2C@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

As our situation allows, Gordon is doing some work to improve various aspects of the mailing list sections of our primary website.

To the best of our knowledge, the mailing lists page located at http://www.tft-bbs.co.uk/Mailing-Lists.html is fully functional. So please feel free to direct any potential new list members there if they are looking for the easiest way to join any of our lists.

The email list porta, where you can find detailed help on the use of server control commands, plus links to the info pages and administration interfaces hosted on our servers, is currently undergoing maintenance by Gordon, our webmaster.

We are aware that the page currently contains a number of errors because of the recent changes we made to the layout of the server. Gordon is working to correct those errors now and we will advise you when the work is complete.

When this is done we urge members to make use of the list portal as it will help you if you need to modify your subscription options to any of our email lists and provide a detailed explanation of how to use each command; including syntactical examples.

Lynne



From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun May  9 07:37:56 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:37:56 +0100
Subject: List Portal Complete
Message-ID: <213181BB-2ED6-40B6-AA50-B8DB24AA892E@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

We have just completed the work on the List Portal guide update, and would very much appreciate comment as to the worth, navigability and general accessibility of this guide.

To recap; this is a guide which attempts to provide a comprehensive breakdown of the commands used to control our email server with regards your list subscriptions.

Actually, since our list manager is generally compatible with other servers you'll find on the Internet, as it's very widely used, you may find it of use elsewhere as well.

What we're looking for is constructive comment as to how we can improve things, if at all. Whether you find it accessible using your browser and screen-reader, where appropriate, things like that.

The guide contains lists of commands, and sublists of command arguments and sub-commands. Each list and item is also navigable by heading as well as list item, which should make things easier for those who are trying to scroll down to a certain command.

If you'd be willing to take a few moments to review this document and give us your opinion, that would be very much appreciated. Just a sidenote; if you're an American and notice that some spellings look strange, we're adhering to the British English dictionary, not the US English one.

The guide may be found here, and please accept our thanks for any reviews and comments.
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/List-Portal.html

Lynne



From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon May 10 19:56:09 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:56:09 -0400
Subject: Question for Voice Over users
Message-ID: <20100510145609.mtcp0ql540g0so88@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi, all.

For those of you who use Voice Over, do you browse the web with Safari, 
or do you use other web browsers such as Mozilla Firefox as well?


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 10 21:20:52 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:20:52 +0100
Subject: Question for Voice Over users
In-Reply-To: <20100510145609.mtcp0ql540g0so88@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20100510145609.mtcp0ql540g0so88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FBDC06F8-AFAF-4834-9C1D-421E179A71A0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 10 May 2010, at 19:56, Mary Stores wrote:

For those of you who use Voice Over, do you browse the web with Safari, or do you use other web browsers such as Mozilla Firefox as well?

Firefox for Mac is not accessible. Everybody I know uses Safari, and it works very very well in most cases.

Lynne



From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon May 10 21:49:34 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:49:34 -0400
Subject: Question for Voice Over users
In-Reply-To: <FBDC06F8-AFAF-4834-9C1D-421E179A71A0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <20100510145609.mtcp0ql540g0so88@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FBDC06F8-AFAF-4834-9C1D-421E179A71A0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100510164934.mcigw04v28w8sk4w@webmail.iu.edu>

Thanks, Lynne. I appreciate that.

Mary
Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Mary
>
> On 10 May 2010, at 19:56, Mary Stores wrote:
>
> For those of you who use Voice Over, do you browse the web with
> Safari, or do you use other web browsers such as Mozilla Firefox as
> well?
>
> Firefox for Mac is not accessible. Everybody I know uses Safari, and
> it works very very well in most cases.
>
> Lynne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 11 02:10:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:10:11 +1000
Subject: Android overtakes iPhone
Message-ID: <21D9E838-6F03-4035-BF38-E931E8791D35@internode.on.net>

Good to see some competition in the market place, I know that some of these phones are accessible through third party software so I can only hope that developers do what Apple have done and build the access solution into the phone itself.


http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/android-overtakes-iphone-20100511-upe9.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 11 02:24:46 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:24:46 +1000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Can_an_Android_Make_Your_Mobile_Phone_Accessible?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?=3F_-_AccessWorld=AE_-_May_2010?=
Message-ID: <324D5589-40F9-420C-82F1-4D2DBA3EF1C9@internode.on.net>

Thought people may find this article of interest

http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw110202


From support at tft-bbs.com  Fri May 14 23:32:26 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 23:32:26 +0100
Subject: List PortL Updated
Message-ID: <05BC8D97-1F9B-4E41-92EE-200655FF733C@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

This message is purely for information purposes; although if you want to take a look and give us constructive feedback that would be appreciated.

Gordon has just finished a significant update to our E-Mail list portal page. This page gives quick links to all of our other sites and services, but its primary intention is to provide extensive help with the use of our E-Mail server and it's commands.

We feel that the commands are now far better laid out and the descriptions for them is made easier to understand.

Actually, since our service uses standard list management software, you may find this guide which we have put together of help with other list providers as well.  Please be aware, however, this guide is our own work and should be treated as such.

You may find the page, (which we think is an excellent source of reference), at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/List-Portal.html
and, as I say, we appreciate any constructive feedback.

You may navigate through the mailing list commands by headings, and through sub-commands by list items.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun May 16 19:20:58 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:20:58 +1000
Subject: ADSL Broadband down but I have a 3G modem!
Message-ID: <CDC0A797-4389-431A-A1EF-8BACB8E0F8DF@internode.on.net>

Hi Everyone!

Unfortunately at this time my ADSL service is down, this is not an urgent problem as far as I'm concerned, its more of a inconvenience.  I have a 3G modem here and I have to plug it into whatever computer I'm working on to get access to the net - well at least I get access <smile> -

So to to the main point of my message, is there a device I can attach to my existing network which will allow me to integrate my 3G modem? That way - when the ADSL service goes down, I can have the 3G modem substitute it and provide Internet data for all the LAN.

I'm aware of touters which will do this and - if necessary - I will buy another one but I don't really want to buy what I don't really need, I mean I already have a very nice router in the form of a Time Capsule here.

I'd be interested in any thoughts on this matter.

Cheers



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun May 16 20:00:40 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:00:40 +0100
Subject: ADSL Broadband down but I have a 3G modem!
In-Reply-To: <CDC0A797-4389-431A-A1EF-8BACB8E0F8DF@internode.on.net>
References: <CDC0A797-4389-431A-A1EF-8BACB8E0F8DF@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <E85E6420-44CC-4E06-9C16-46C3F402B779@tft-bbs.co.uk>

If your modem is Ethernet, you can do whaty you want already with a little skill.


On 16 May 2010, at 19:20, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi Everyone!

Unfortunately at this time my ADSL service is down, this is not an urgent problem as far as I'm concerned, its more of a inconvenience.  I have a 3G modem here and I have to plug it into whatever computer I'm working on to get access to the net - well at least I get access <smile> -

So to to the main point of my message, is there a device I can attach to my existing network which will allow me to integrate my 3G modem? That way - when the ADSL service goes down, I can have the 3G modem substitute it and provide Internet data for all the LAN.

I'm aware of touters which will do this and - if necessary - I will buy another one but I don't really want to buy what I don't really need, I mean I already have a very nice router in the form of a Time Capsule here.

I'd be interested in any thoughts on this matter.

Cheers


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun May 16 20:32:19 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 05:32:19 +1000
Subject: ADSL Broadband down but I have a 3G modem!
In-Reply-To: <E85E6420-44CC-4E06-9C16-46C3F402B779@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <CDC0A797-4389-431A-A1EF-8BACB8E0F8DF@internode.on.net>
	<E85E6420-44CC-4E06-9C16-46C3F402B779@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B0B1D94D-C7C5-4FA9-B361-B166F76489F1@internode.on.net>

I take it you mean that I can plug my 3G modem into one of the computers and have that machine act as a distribution point to the network?


On 17/05/2010, at 5:00 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> If your modem is Ethernet, you can do whaty you want already with a little skill.
> 
> 
> On 16 May 2010, at 19:20, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Hi Everyone!
> 
> Unfortunately at this time my ADSL service is down, this is not an urgent problem as far as I'm concerned, its more of a inconvenience.  I have a 3G modem here and I have to plug it into whatever computer I'm working on to get access to the net - well at least I get access <smile> -
> 
> So to to the main point of my message, is there a device I can attach to my existing network which will allow me to integrate my 3G modem? That way - when the ADSL service goes down, I can have the 3G modem substitute it and provide Internet data for all the LAN.
> 
> I'm aware of touters which will do this and - if necessary - I will buy another one but I don't really want to buy what I don't really need, I mean I already have a very nice router in the form of a Time Capsule here.
> 
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this matter.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 17 06:59:42 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 06:59:42 +0100
Subject: ADSL Broadband down but I have a 3G modem!
In-Reply-To: <B0B1D94D-C7C5-4FA9-B361-B166F76489F1@internode.on.net>
References: <CDC0A797-4389-431A-A1EF-8BACB8E0F8DF@internode.on.net>
	<E85E6420-44CC-4E06-9C16-46C3F402B779@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B0B1D94D-C7C5-4FA9-B361-B166F76489F1@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <79258487-94D5-411A-B9C4-15815A61258D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

No!  That wouldn't solve your problem, would it.

I mean you can, if your modem is Ethernet, plug it into the WAN port of the TC.  It would behave just like any other modem.

On 16 May 2010, at 20:32, Dane Trethowan wrote:

I take it you mean that I can plug my 3G modem into one of the computers and have that machine act as a distribution point to the network?


On 17/05/2010, at 5:00 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> If your modem is Ethernet, you can do whaty you want already with a little skill.
> 
> 
> On 16 May 2010, at 19:20, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Hi Everyone!
> 
> Unfortunately at this time my ADSL service is down, this is not an urgent problem as far as I'm concerned, its more of a inconvenience.  I have a 3G modem here and I have to plug it into whatever computer I'm working on to get access to the net - well at least I get access <smile> -
> 
> So to to the main point of my message, is there a device I can attach to my existing network which will allow me to integrate my 3G modem? That way - when the ADSL service goes down, I can have the 3G modem substitute it and provide Internet data for all the LAN.
> 
> I'm aware of touters which will do this and - if necessary - I will buy another one but I don't really want to buy what I don't really need, I mean I already have a very nice router in the form of a Time Capsule here.
> 
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this matter.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue May 18 17:46:50 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:46:50 -0500
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
Message-ID: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
got lost in all the iplayer hype.

	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
that is not true, but it sure seems like that.

Martin McCormick

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 18:11:23 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:11:23 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.

I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.

This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.

As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.

Gordon


On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:

	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
got lost in all the iplayer hype.

	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
that is not true, but it sure seems like that.

Martin McCormick
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 18:25:53 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 03:25:53 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>

Okay let's get a few things straight here, CBS have not cut their web service its still there along with the radio stations, what CBS has done - and I believe that local BBC content will be doing the same - is block the content from countries outside the country of origin but not to cut costs, rather because of copyright laws.

Depending on who you're talking to - and if some of the newspaper articles in the U.K. are to be believed but and there will be people on this list I'm sure who don't believe them <smile> - Internet radio along with DAB is Booming! that being the case then keeping the radio in the "country or origin" will benefit the people in the country itself, everyone knows that the more people who listen to an Internet stream then lesser the band width to your computer at your end thus the less likely hood of a good connection.  Again I'm not an expert on the subject as I'll be reminded shortly but much of what I've written came from an audio tech person from CBS when I wrote to them at Easter time asking why I couldn't access KNX - the CBS news channel in Los Anglis - any longer.


On 19/05/2010, at 3:11 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.
> 
> I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.
> 
> This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.
> 
> As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
> weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
> their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
> There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
> get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
> one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
> Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
> still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
> got lost in all the iplayer hype.
> 
> 	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
> exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
> that is not true, but it sure seems like that.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 18:43:34 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:43:34 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I don't think you need newspapers Dane to know that DAB and other digital audio and video ios booming.

However, I need to cortrect you about the UK organisations because clearly, you're not aware of the internal politics involved here.

You say it isn't to cut costs.  You're wrong!  In the case of Sky and the BBC, it is very much a cost-cutting exercise.

The UK government has refused to allow the BBC their requested raise in the license fee.  Remember Dane, it is the UK public which fund the broadcsting arm of the BBC, not any of the commercial operations or other government grants.  Not significantly anyway.

The BBC is facing stiff choices, that's why they're cutting jobs, cutting services and that includes Internet services.

Sky TV has been instructed by the fair trading inspectret to slash its prices.  They are charging extremely high fees for their TV content, which includes their Internet services.

Therefore, they're having to slash those services significantly or they will find themselves losing money like water down a plug-hole.

So Dane, with all due respect, your assertions that this is not a cost-cutting exercise are, in the case of the UK, wrong.

I'm not saying the the recent changes in the copyright legislation didn't play some part in the decision.  But I think, to be honest, it is you who neesds to get a few things strait, as you put it.  There is much more to this than you seem to be aware of.

And again, I stress that I am talking here specifically and exclusively about the UK services from the BBC and B SKy Broadcasting.


On 18 May 2010, at 18:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Okay let's get a few things straight here, CBS have not cut their web service its still there along with the radio stations, what CBS has done - and I believe that local BBC content will be doing the same - is block the content from countries outside the country of origin but not to cut costs, rather because of copyright laws.

Depending on who you're talking to - and if some of the newspaper articles in the U.K. are to be believed but and there will be people on this list I'm sure who don't believe them <smile> - Internet radio along with DAB is Booming! that being the case then keeping the radio in the "country or origin" will benefit the people in the country itself, everyone knows that the more people who listen to an Internet stream then lesser the band width to your computer at your end thus the less likely hood of a good connection.  Again I'm not an expert on the subject as I'll be reminded shortly but much of what I've written came from an audio tech person from CBS when I wrote to them at Easter time asking why I couldn't access KNX - the CBS news channel in Los Anglis - any longer.


On 19/05/2010, at 3:11 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.
> 
> I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.
> 
> This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.
> 
> As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> 	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
> weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
> their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
> There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
> get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
> one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
> Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
> still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
> got lost in all the iplayer hype.
> 
> 	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
> exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
> that is not true, but it sure seems like that.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 19:11:08 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 04:11:08 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>

Hi again!

I'm going to comment on this point-by-point because some of what you said is not accurate.


On 19/05/2010, at 3:43 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> I don't think you need newspapers Dane to know that DAB and other digital audio and video ios booming.
> 
> Actually - again if you read the U.K. Newspapers, DAB is not booming? Its seen as many broadcasters as a financial basket case and I was talking about the take-up of Internet radio in the U.k.


> However, I need to cortrect you about the UK organisations because clearly, you're not aware of the internal politics involved here.
> 
> You say it isn't to cut costs.  You're wrong!  In the case of Sky and the BBC, it is very much a cost-cutting exercise.
> 
> Right, I meant to say that it may not be a cost cutting exercise rather BBC and other broadcasters may be - by law - required to stop streaming of their broadcasts outside the country or origin?

> The UK government has refused to allow the BBC their requested raise in the license fee.  Remember Dane, it is the UK public which fund the broadcsting arm of the BBC, not any of the commercial operations or other government grants.  Not significantly anyway.
> 
> Yep thanks for that reminder.  The ABC in Australia is also tax payer funded however we don't have a licence system as you described for the BBC as you do.  Its interesting how attitudes differ here, the ABC is promoting its Internet streams and other online content heavily here not just to Australians but to the whole world, is that a good thing? Well the ABC seems to think it is, part of their job is to run a news service which reports on word events, the more input they get from a world-wide audience then the better the ABC users - that is the Australian public - is served and I don't have a problem with that and actually after this post I have a little more respect for our ABC - or Aunti as the ABC is affectionately known here - than I did before.


> The BBC is facing stiff choices, that's why they're cutting jobs, cutting services and that includes Internet services.
> 
> Sky TV has been instructed by the fair trading inspectret to slash its prices.  They are charging extremely high fees for their TV content, which includes their Internet services.
> 
> Therefore, they're having to slash those services significantly or they will find themselves losing money like water down a plug-hole.
> 
> So Dane, with all due respect, your assertions that this is not a cost-cutting exercise are, in the case of the UK, wrong.
> 
> I didn't assert that I meant to say that cost cutting may only be one reason behind the cutting of streams to the outside world.

> I'm not saying the the recent changes in the copyright legislation didn't play some part in the decision.  But I think, to be honest, it is you who neesds to get a few things strait, as you put it.  There is much more to this than you seem to be aware of.
> 
> And again, I stress that I am talking here specifically and exclusively about the UK services from the BBC and B SKy Broadcasting.
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 18:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Okay let's get a few things straight here, CBS have not cut their web service its still there along with the radio stations, what CBS has done - and I believe that local BBC content will be doing the same - is block the content from countries outside the country of origin but not to cut costs, rather because of copyright laws.
> 
> Depending on who you're talking to - and if some of the newspaper articles in the U.K. are to be believed but and there will be people on this list I'm sure who don't believe them <smile> - Internet radio along with DAB is Booming! that being the case then keeping the radio in the "country or origin" will benefit the people in the country itself, everyone knows that the more people who listen to an Internet stream then lesser the band width to your computer at your end thus the less likely hood of a good connection.  Again I'm not an expert on the subject as I'll be reminded shortly but much of what I've written came from an audio tech person from CBS when I wrote to them at Easter time asking why I couldn't access KNX - the CBS news channel in Los Anglis - any longer.
> 
> 
> On 19/05/2010, at 3:11 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.
>> 
>> I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.
>> 
>> This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.
>> 
>> As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:
>> 
>> 	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
>> weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
>> their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
>> There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
>> get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
>> one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
>> Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
>> still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
>> got lost in all the iplayer hype.
>> 
>> 	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
>> exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
>> that is not true, but it sure seems like that.
>> 
>> Martin McCormick
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue May 18 19:34:04 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:34:04 -0500
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
Message-ID: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>

	As far as I know, Radio1 is not going away from the
Internet. It is just going to be tied in with flash and the
Iplayer application which will make it harder to receive.

	Actually, as much as I enjoy the BBC, I understand how
many people in the UK could question why their tax Pounds are
being used to entertain people over seas. After all, in Brittain
and many other countries around the world, people are forced to
pay a "license" fee to own a television or radio. The United
States government is actually forbidden to broadcast directly to
the American public by law. Here, some of our tax Dollars
support the USIA or United States Information Agency which
sponsors many activities such as the Voice of America. One can
hear the VOA on short wave, but US citizens and residents can
not participate in any of the VOA activities. They are meant for
citizens of other countries.

	I don't remember when Brittain first allowed commercial
broadcasting, but it was not many decades ago. Even in the US,
we used to hear news stories in the sixties about such pirate
radio stations as Radio Carolyne and other off-shore stations
who gave the British government fits by providing listeners
with programming that wasn't available. I think Radio1 and the
other outlets such as Radio2, etc, were a response to the pirates.

	They do a superb job, but if I was British, I might be
questioning whether the BBC needs to spend my tax money to
basically compete with all the private businesses which is what
a commercial radio station is. I would want the BBC to be
somewhat like our public broadcasting system is, here. It
provides more brain food programming and definitely fills a
nitch that private broadcasters don't provide, not even close.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 19:38:56 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:38:56 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anybody here.  But I think some of your speculation is way wide of the mark, based on how things really are in the UK Dane.  If you swallow everything our newspapers would have you believe, it's little wonder you're ill-informed, to be absolutely honest.


On 18 May 2010, at 19:11, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi again!

I'm going to comment on this point-by-point because some of what you said is not accurate.


On 19/05/2010, at 3:43 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> I don't think you need newspapers Dane to know that DAB and other digital audio and video ios booming.
> 
> Actually - again if you read the U.K. Newspapers, DAB is not booming? Its seen as many broadcasters as a financial basket case and I was talking about the take-up of Internet radio in the U.k.


> However, I need to cortrect you about the UK organisations because clearly, you're not aware of the internal politics involved here.
> 
> You say it isn't to cut costs.  You're wrong!  In the case of Sky and the BBC, it is very much a cost-cutting exercise.
> 
> Right, I meant to say that it may not be a cost cutting exercise rather BBC and other broadcasters may be - by law - required to stop streaming of their broadcasts outside the country or origin?

> The UK government has refused to allow the BBC their requested raise in the license fee.  Remember Dane, it is the UK public which fund the broadcsting arm of the BBC, not any of the commercial operations or other government grants.  Not significantly anyway.
> 
> Yep thanks for that reminder.  The ABC in Australia is also tax payer funded however we don't have a licence system as you described for the BBC as you do.  Its interesting how attitudes differ here, the ABC is promoting its Internet streams and other online content heavily here not just to Australians but to the whole world, is that a good thing? Well the ABC seems to think it is, part of their job is to run a news service which reports on word events, the more input they get from a world-wide audience then the better the ABC users - that is the Australian public - is served and I don't have a problem with that and actually after this post I have a little more respect for our ABC - or Aunti as the ABC is affectionately known here - than I did before.


> The BBC is facing stiff choices, that's why they're cutting jobs, cutting services and that includes Internet services.
> 
> Sky TV has been instructed by the fair trading inspectret to slash its prices.  They are charging extremely high fees for their TV content, which includes their Internet services.
> 
> Therefore, they're having to slash those services significantly or they will find themselves losing money like water down a plug-hole.
> 
> So Dane, with all due respect, your assertions that this is not a cost-cutting exercise are, in the case of the UK, wrong.
> 
> I didn't assert that I meant to say that cost cutting may only be one reason behind the cutting of streams to the outside world.

> I'm not saying the the recent changes in the copyright legislation didn't play some part in the decision.  But I think, to be honest, it is you who neesds to get a few things strait, as you put it.  There is much more to this than you seem to be aware of.
> 
> And again, I stress that I am talking here specifically and exclusively about the UK services from the BBC and B SKy Broadcasting.
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 18:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Okay let's get a few things straight here, CBS have not cut their web service its still there along with the radio stations, what CBS has done - and I believe that local BBC content will be doing the same - is block the content from countries outside the country of origin but not to cut costs, rather because of copyright laws.
> 
> Depending on who you're talking to - and if some of the newspaper articles in the U.K. are to be believed but and there will be people on this list I'm sure who don't believe them <smile> - Internet radio along with DAB is Booming! that being the case then keeping the radio in the "country or origin" will benefit the people in the country itself, everyone knows that the more people who listen to an Internet stream then lesser the band width to your computer at your end thus the less likely hood of a good connection.  Again I'm not an expert on the subject as I'll be reminded shortly but much of what I've written came from an audio tech person from CBS when I wrote to them at Easter time asking why I couldn't access KNX - the CBS news channel in Los Anglis - any longer.
> 
> 
> On 19/05/2010, at 3:11 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.
>> 
>> I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.
>> 
>> This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.
>> 
>> As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:
>> 
>> 	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
>> weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
>> their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
>> There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
>> get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
>> one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
>> Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
>> still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
>> got lost in all the iplayer hype.
>> 
>> 	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
>> exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
>> that is not true, but it sure seems like that.
>> 
>> Martin McCormick
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 19:38:01 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 04:38:01 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>

Okay, well other list members may be able to help here, I did use some BBC Radio widgets some time ago to play their streams, are they still being actively developed? If so perhaps they may help?

Yep! I can see where the BBC public are coming from and if I had to pay a licence fee up front like that - given the amount it is? - Well I don't think I'd be too happy either.


On 19/05/2010, at 4:34 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	As far as I know, Radio1 is not going away from the
> Internet. It is just going to be tied in with flash and the
> Iplayer application which will make it harder to receive.
> 
> 	Actually, as much as I enjoy the BBC, I understand how
> many people in the UK could question why their tax Pounds are
> being used to entertain people over seas. After all, in Brittain
> and many other countries around the world, people are forced to
> pay a "license" fee to own a television or radio. The United
> States government is actually forbidden to broadcast directly to
> the American public by law. Here, some of our tax Dollars
> support the USIA or United States Information Agency which
> sponsors many activities such as the Voice of America. One can
> hear the VOA on short wave, but US citizens and residents can
> not participate in any of the VOA activities. They are meant for
> citizens of other countries.
> 
> 	I don't remember when Brittain first allowed commercial
> broadcasting, but it was not many decades ago. Even in the US,
> we used to hear news stories in the sixties about such pirate
> radio stations as Radio Carolyne and other off-shore stations
> who gave the British government fits by providing listeners
> with programming that wasn't available. I think Radio1 and the
> other outlets such as Radio2, etc, were a response to the pirates.
> 
> 	They do a superb job, but if I was British, I might be
> questioning whether the BBC needs to spend my tax money to
> basically compete with all the private businesses which is what
> a commercial radio station is. I would want the BBC to be
> somewhat like our public broadcasting system is, here. It
> provides more brain food programming and definitely fills a
> nitch that private broadcasters don't provide, not even close.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 19:46:14 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 04:46:14 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
	<44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <294C0C0D-41FF-4690-B5CF-66533EEBF2D6@internode.on.net>

I'm not saying newspapers are right 100% but let's face it, there must be some truth in the stories about DAB because I've read it in a few rags, the topic has come up in parliament and so forth, I put it to you that those who remain ignorant of newspapers are just - or perhaps more - ill informed than I am <smile>.


On 19/05/2010, at 4:38 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anybody here.  But I think some of your speculation is way wide of the mark, based on how things really are in the UK Dane.  If you swallow everything our newspapers would have you believe, it's little wonder you're ill-informed, to be absolutely honest.
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 19:11, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> Hi again!
> 
> I'm going to comment on this point-by-point because some of what you said is not accurate.
> 
> 
> On 19/05/2010, at 3:43 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> I don't think you need newspapers Dane to know that DAB and other digital audio and video ios booming.
>> 
>> Actually - again if you read the U.K. Newspapers, DAB is not booming? Its seen as many broadcasters as a financial basket case and I was talking about the take-up of Internet radio in the U.k.
> 
> 
>> However, I need to cortrect you about the UK organisations because clearly, you're not aware of the internal politics involved here.
>> 
>> You say it isn't to cut costs.  You're wrong!  In the case of Sky and the BBC, it is very much a cost-cutting exercise.
>> 
>> Right, I meant to say that it may not be a cost cutting exercise rather BBC and other broadcasters may be - by law - required to stop streaming of their broadcasts outside the country or origin?
> 
>> The UK government has refused to allow the BBC their requested raise in the license fee.  Remember Dane, it is the UK public which fund the broadcsting arm of the BBC, not any of the commercial operations or other government grants.  Not significantly anyway.
>> 
>> Yep thanks for that reminder.  The ABC in Australia is also tax payer funded however we don't have a licence system as you described for the BBC as you do.  Its interesting how attitudes differ here, the ABC is promoting its Internet streams and other online content heavily here not just to Australians but to the whole world, is that a good thing? Well the ABC seems to think it is, part of their job is to run a news service which reports on word events, the more input they get from a world-wide audience then the better the ABC users - that is the Australian public - is served and I don't have a problem with that and actually after this post I have a little more respect for our ABC - or Aunti as the ABC is affectionately known here - than I did before.
> 
> 
>> The BBC is facing stiff choices, that's why they're cutting jobs, cutting services and that includes Internet services.
>> 
>> Sky TV has been instructed by the fair trading inspectret to slash its prices.  They are charging extremely high fees for their TV content, which includes their Internet services.
>> 
>> Therefore, they're having to slash those services significantly or they will find themselves losing money like water down a plug-hole.
>> 
>> So Dane, with all due respect, your assertions that this is not a cost-cutting exercise are, in the case of the UK, wrong.
>> 
>> I didn't assert that I meant to say that cost cutting may only be one reason behind the cutting of streams to the outside world.
> 
>> I'm not saying the the recent changes in the copyright legislation didn't play some part in the decision.  But I think, to be honest, it is you who neesds to get a few things strait, as you put it.  There is much more to this than you seem to be aware of.
>> 
>> And again, I stress that I am talking here specifically and exclusively about the UK services from the BBC and B SKy Broadcasting.
>> 
>> 
>> On 18 May 2010, at 18:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>> Okay let's get a few things straight here, CBS have not cut their web service its still there along with the radio stations, what CBS has done - and I believe that local BBC content will be doing the same - is block the content from countries outside the country of origin but not to cut costs, rather because of copyright laws.
>> 
>> Depending on who you're talking to - and if some of the newspaper articles in the U.K. are to be believed but and there will be people on this list I'm sure who don't believe them <smile> - Internet radio along with DAB is Booming! that being the case then keeping the radio in the "country or origin" will benefit the people in the country itself, everyone knows that the more people who listen to an Internet stream then lesser the band width to your computer at your end thus the less likely hood of a good connection.  Again I'm not an expert on the subject as I'll be reminded shortly but much of what I've written came from an audio tech person from CBS when I wrote to them at Easter time asking why I couldn't access KNX - the CBS news channel in Los Anglis - any longer.
>> 
>> 
>> On 19/05/2010, at 3:11 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> I know the beeb are finally coming around to the idea that they need to stop wasting money on this stuff.  The BBC could, and should be concentrating on their home audience and, to be honest, In think they're not alone in cutting web services.
>>> 
>>> I gather that CBS and others in the states are doing so and I think that's no bad thing.  In the current economic climate, over here especially, where the British license payer has to pay for this stuff, I don't see why we should have to pay for the convenience of overseas listeners.
>>> 
>>> This is nothing personal and I hope nobody will take it as such. But money is tight and budgets are getting squeezed. Radio 1 is not really a news station anyway, and maybe that's why they're cutting that service.
>>> 
>>> As for the site itself Martin, it does change actually depending on where and how you access it.  There are usually text-only links on the BBC sites.  Try those and see if you have any better luck.
>>> 
>>> Gordon
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 18 May 2010, at 17:46, Martin McCormick wrote:
>>> 
>>> 	I usually listen to the news from BBC Radio1 each
>>> weekday. Yesterday, they put a short announcement at the head of
>>> their stream stating that it would go away at the end of may.
>>> There was a link to the BBC web site. There, we find that we can
>>> get Radio1 via iplayer and flash. I also got the impression that
>>> one may still be able to receive it via mplayer via Windows
>>> Media Player. It got rather confusing at that point. If one can
>>> still receive it that way, how do you find the link? I sort of
>>> got lost in all the iplayer hype.
>>> 
>>> 	Sometimes, I swear, I can go to the BBC web site and do
>>> exactly the same thing and get totally different results. I know
>>> that is not true, but it sure seems like that.
>>> 
>>> Martin McCormick
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 20:05:54 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:05:54 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <21660991-8E93-455B-98E9-861C229034D2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

There's one point here which you made that I found a little concerning so I need to correct youl

The BBC is not, and I cannot stress this enough, controlled or in any way influenced by the UK government in terms of them owning it.  So the government is not broadcasting to the public via the BBC.

No, I fdon't mean to suggest they're removing radio 1 or other serviuces completely.  I'm just saying services are being slashed all over the place and that might mean the removal of some streams.

Actually, I'd prefer to see, indeed, I'd love to see the BBC get rid of that ridiculous World Servide organisation.  Why should we have to fund that heap of crap?  It does us no favours, and costs millions each year for the benefit of those overseas.

All the multilingual stuff should be abolished.  All that stuff would allow the BBC to concentrate on the job they should be doing, broadcasting to the UK.

On 18 May 2010, at 19:34, Martin McCormick wrote:

	As far as I know, Radio1 is not going away from the
Internet. It is just going to be tied in with flash and the
Iplayer application which will make it harder to receive.

	Actually, as much as I enjoy the BBC, I understand how
many people in the UK could question why their tax Pounds are
being used to entertain people over seas. After all, in Brittain
and many other countries around the world, people are forced to
pay a "license" fee to own a television or radio. The United
States government is actually forbidden to broadcast directly to
the American public by law. Here, some of our tax Dollars
support the USIA or United States Information Agency which
sponsors many activities such as the Voice of America. One can
hear the VOA on short wave, but US citizens and residents can
not participate in any of the VOA activities. They are meant for
citizens of other countries.

	I don't remember when Brittain first allowed commercial
broadcasting, but it was not many decades ago. Even in the US,
we used to hear news stories in the sixties about such pirate
radio stations as Radio Carolyne and other off-shore stations
who gave the British government fits by providing listeners
with programming that wasn't available. I think Radio1 and the
other outlets such as Radio2, etc, were a response to the pirates.

	They do a superb job, but if I was British, I might be
questioning whether the BBC needs to spend my tax money to
basically compete with all the private businesses which is what
a commercial radio station is. I would want the BBC to be
somewhat like our public broadcasting system is, here. It
provides more brain food programming and definitely fills a
nitch that private broadcasters don't provide, not even close.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 20:10:46 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:10:46 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 18 May 2010, at 19:38, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Okay, well other list members may be able to help here, I did use some BBC Radio widgets some time ago to play their streams, are they still being actively developed? If so perhaps they may help?

Gillian has been looking for those but we cannot find them now.

? Yep! I can see where the BBC public are coming from and if I had to pay a licence fee up front like that - given the amount it is? - Well I don't think I'd be too happy either.

The TV license costs ?156 GBP a year now. That is a heck of a lot of money and even if you never watch the BBC, only watch ITV or Sky, you still have to pay it.

The visually impaired get a 50% discount and pensioners over the age of 75 get a free license now. But all the same, it's hard for those on low incomes to manage.

If you're caught license-dodging, (and yes, they can detect unlicensed TV sets), you're up for a 3 thousand Pounds fine.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 20:16:02 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:16:02 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <294C0C0D-41FF-4690-B5CF-66533EEBF2D6@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
	<44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<294C0C0D-41FF-4690-B5CF-66533EEBF2D6@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <C49DC362-E4ED-46AB-842C-F0DA41D4AC88@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 18 May 2010, at 19:46, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? I'm not saying newspapers are right 100% but let's face it, there must be some truth in the stories about DAB because I've read it in a few rags, the topic has come up in parliament and so forth, I put it to you that those who remain ignorant of newspapers are just - or perhaps more - ill informed than I am <smile>.

And I put it to you that we live here, you don't. It's a little like us telling you about Melbourne's politics.

Yes, of course there are some things the papers get right. But you seem to be treating them like the gospel. Well actually you probably could get away with that; because the gospel is probably a bit shaky in places too. :-)

But seriously, I think you insinuation is slightly unfare. You say it's come up in Parliament; well possibly it has. But remember Dane, our MP's have been proven to b less than reliable recently as well. So again, if you take them seriously then you're somewhat gullible.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 20:19:28 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 05:19:28 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
	<43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8D1A18BC-3E50-4B1B-8537-EEF110155A9D@internode.on.net>

Fine thanks for clarifying the licence amount and I think that amount is an outrage! myself but that's just my opinion.

In Australia, we once had a licence fee for the ABC which was structure along the same lines it seems as the BBC licence fee is however our system was more flexible, it allowed all pensioners and the unemployed exemptions to the fee altogether, the idea being that the disadvantaged relied on radio to get information, to find a job or whatever.  Our licence fee was abolished altogether in 1974.

Our ABC is - like the BBC - supposed ti be independent of Government control.

The ABC in Australia gets less than 9 hundred million dollars a year and - given the services they offer - I'm surprised that we can get such value for money, the ABC did a calculation not so long ago in which they worked out that it cost every Australian tax pay 8 cents per day to keep the organisation running, and that's amazing value.


On 19/05/2010, at 5:10 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 19:38, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Okay, well other list members may be able to help here, I did use some BBC Radio widgets some time ago to play their streams, are they still being actively developed? If so perhaps they may help?
> 
> Gillian has been looking for those but we cannot find them now.
> 
> ? Yep! I can see where the BBC public are coming from and if I had to pay a licence fee up front like that - given the amount it is? - Well I don't think I'd be too happy either.
> 
> The TV license costs ?156 GBP a year now. That is a heck of a lot of money and even if you never watch the BBC, only watch ITV or Sky, you still have to pay it.
> 
> The visually impaired get a 50% discount and pensioners over the age of 75 get a free license now. But all the same, it's hard for those on low incomes to manage.
> 
> If you're caught license-dodging, (and yes, they can detect unlicensed TV sets), you're up for a 3 thousand Pounds fine.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 20:20:39 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 05:20:39 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <C49DC362-E4ED-46AB-842C-F0DA41D4AC88@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
	<44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<294C0C0D-41FF-4690-B5CF-66533EEBF2D6@internode.on.net>
	<C49DC362-E4ED-46AB-842C-F0DA41D4AC88@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E8080D1F-3942-40AA-9383-DE98E905FD0E@internode.on.net>

You'd be amazed at the number of people who live in a country and don't know anything about what's going on, not saying you don't of course <smile>.


On 19/05/2010, at 5:16 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 19:46, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? I'm not saying newspapers are right 100% but let's face it, there must be some truth in the stories about DAB because I've read it in a few rags, the topic has come up in parliament and so forth, I put it to you that those who remain ignorant of newspapers are just - or perhaps more - ill informed than I am <smile>.
> 
> And I put it to you that we live here, you don't. It's a little like us telling you about Melbourne's politics.
> 
> Yes, of course there are some things the papers get right. But you seem to be treating them like the gospel. Well actually you probably could get away with that; because the gospel is probably a bit shaky in places too. :-)
> 
> But seriously, I think you insinuation is slightly unfare. You say it's come up in Parliament; well possibly it has. But remember Dane, our MP's have been proven to b less than reliable recently as well. So again, if you take them seriously then you're somewhat gullible.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue May 18 20:49:00 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:49:00 -0500
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
Message-ID: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>

Gordon Smith writes:
> Actually, I'd prefer to see, indeed, I'd love to see the BBC get rid of 
> that ridiculous World Servide organisation.  Why should we have to fund 
> that heap of crap?  It does us no favours, and costs millions each year 
> for the benefit of those overseas.

	That is an interesting observation. There are people in
the United States who say exactly the same thing about the Voice
of America. This is actually some of the cheapest advertising
for our way of life that there is. Oklahoma State University has
had an active outreach program to recruit international students
for many years and some of my instructors commented on the
number of their students who said they wanted to come here and
study based on what they had heard over the radio. The same can
be said for the BBC World Service and Radio Netherlands.

	The VOA and BBC were held in high regards during the
Iron Curtain days of the Soviet Union. If you think the
government spends Millions to broadcast in all those languages,
think of spending millions to do nothing but spew noise in to
the air which is what the Soviet te Block countries did to try to
jam BBC and VOA broadcasts. Even so, people in totalitarian
countries such as North Korea risk all kinds of trouble to
listen to news which may not be perfect, but is still better
than what they get forced down their throats by the local thugs
who happen to have the biggest clubs right now.

	What I am trying to say is that the dangerous times we
live in might be even worse without this advertising.

	I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am saying that
broadcasting ideas about how a free society, warts and all,
works to the rest of the world is cheaper than dealing with the
consequences of not doing this.

	I am not a bleeding heart, but more of a pragmatist in
that I agree with Thomas Jefferson who I believe said that
democracy can only survive with a well-informed public. So, if
some of it sticks somewhere else, that may be one less trouble
spot down the road.

Martin McCormick

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue May 18 21:23:47 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 06:23:47 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <D98F9A73-0687-42C2-A23A-7E14ABABD77D@internode.on.net>

As I understand it, the BBC World Service has nothing whatever to do with the licence fee structure of the BBC? That is to say the BBC World Service is funded by the Government entirely rather than from any of the licence fee charged, could be wrong about this.  I can see where people come from when they say that the British Government shouldn't be funding the World Service - or Curled Service as i prefer to call it <smile> - but then gain its the same argument I suppose the ABC uses, you want world input to your local radio then the World Service is I have to admit one extremely useful and cheap way to get it.

The BBC as far as I'm aware are spending much less on the World Service than they used to thanks to the help of the Internet and satelite which allows them to do away with most of the shortwave transmitters they used to use, allows for localised content for various regions etc.


On 19/05/2010, at 5:49 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Gordon Smith writes:
>> Actually, I'd prefer to see, indeed, I'd love to see the BBC get rid of 
>> that ridiculous World Servide organisation.  Why should we have to fund 
>> that heap of crap?  It does us no favours, and costs millions each year 
>> for the benefit of those overseas.
> 
> 	That is an interesting observation. There are people in
> the United States who say exactly the same thing about the Voice
> of America. This is actually some of the cheapest advertising
> for our way of life that there is. Oklahoma State University has
> had an active outreach program to recruit international students
> for many years and some of my instructors commented on the
> number of their students who said they wanted to come here and
> study based on what they had heard over the radio. The same can
> be said for the BBC World Service and Radio Netherlands.
> 
> 	The VOA and BBC were held in high regards during the
> Iron Curtain days of the Soviet Union. If you think the
> government spends Millions to broadcast in all those languages,
> think of spending millions to do nothing but spew noise in to
> the air which is what the Soviet te Block countries did to try to
> jam BBC and VOA broadcasts. Even so, people in totalitarian
> countries such as North Korea risk all kinds of trouble to
> listen to news which may not be perfect, but is still better
> than what they get forced down their throats by the local thugs
> who happen to have the biggest clubs right now.
> 
> 	What I am trying to say is that the dangerous times we
> live in might be even worse without this advertising.
> 
> 	I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am saying that
> broadcasting ideas about how a free society, warts and all,
> works to the rest of the world is cheaper than dealing with the
> consequences of not doing this.
> 
> 	I am not a bleeding heart, but more of a pragmatist in
> that I agree with Thomas Jefferson who I believe said that
> democracy can only survive with a well-informed public. So, if
> some of it sticks somewhere else, that may be one less trouble
> spot down the road.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 21:47:11 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:47:11 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <8D1A18BC-3E50-4B1B-8537-EEF110155A9D@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
	<43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8D1A18BC-3E50-4B1B-8537-EEF110155A9D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <7D63B2C6-F926-438B-8DAF-604D2BD2225D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

I have several comments here so I hope you won't take any of this personally.

On 18 May 2010, at 20:19, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Fine thanks for clarifying the licence amount and I think that amount is an outrage! myself but that's just my opinion.

I don't know of anybody, apart from those outside government and the BBCC itself who doesn't think that.

Tell me; what's the difference between a 74-year-old pensioner and a 75-year-old pensioner in terms of his or her income? Answer; absolutely nothing. I don't want to be political here. But the restrictions they've placed on this are ridiculous.

? In Australia, we once had a licence fee for the ABC which was structure along the same lines it seems as the BBC licence fee is however our system was more flexible, it allowed all pensioners and the unemployed exemptions to the fee altogether, the idea being that the disadvantaged relied on radio to get information, to find a job or whatever.  Our licence fee was abolished altogether in 1974.

The BBC license fee does not include radio. The license is only for the use of a television.

? Our ABC is - like the BBC - supposed ti be independent of Government control.

The BBC is independent, not supposed to be independent. Indeed they got into hot water with the government over their coverage of our joke of a general election a couple of weeks ago.

? The ABC in Australia gets less than 9 hundred million dollars a year and - given the services they offer - I'm surprised that we can get such value for money, the ABC did a calculation not so long ago in which they worked out that it cost every Australian tax pay 8 cents per day to keep the organisation running, and that's amazing value.

Yes; but the ABC relies a lot on overseas media for its news coverage from what I have heard of 
it. I've listened to new radio on the Internet and I have to say that in comparison to Five Live, it's a bit of a joke.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 21:49:22 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:49:22 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes
In-Reply-To: <E8080D1F-3942-40AA-9383-DE98E905FD0E@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181646.o4IGkomK079650@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<3B2FB285-295B-4C7D-8127-AE448E9FF1AA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8645F259-E463-465A-86CF-A894F2089684@internode.on.net>
	<A4014C44-19AE-4A9C-8EBB-10901001929E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E29E4BD-F028-420D-BE25-E859A3C9540F@internode.on.net>
	<44FE67AD-7626-4E93-9052-BFF97F871572@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<294C0C0D-41FF-4690-B5CF-66533EEBF2D6@internode.on.net>
	<C49DC362-E4ED-46AB-842C-F0DA41D4AC88@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E8080D1F-3942-40AA-9383-DE98E905FD0E@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <7EEA0427-3B5C-4BAE-9471-CC0FF90B0846@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 18 May 2010, at 20:20, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? You'd be amazed at the number of people who live in a country and don't know anything about what's going on, not saying you don't of course <smile>.

That's not true, I wouldn't be amazed. But, conversely, you'd be amazed perhaps, (perhaps being the operative term here), by just how many people don't live in this country; yet think they know what's going on. :-)

Lynne


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 22:12:44 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:12:44 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <F43A9B55-9741-4AE8-9717-A7D8E58852B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin.  Let me take this point by point and I'm going to have to try hard not to cross the threshold of being off topic. <smile>

On 18 May 2010, at 20:49, Martin McCormick wrote:

That is an interesting observation. There are people in
the United States who say exactly the same thing about the Voice
of America. This is actually some of the cheapest advertising
for our way of life that there is. Oklahoma State University has
had an active outreach program to recruit international students
for many years and some of my instructors commented on the
number of their students who said they wanted to come here and
study based on what they had heard over the radio. The same can
be said for the BBC World Service and Radio Netherlands.

That's the exact thing we want to discourage Martin, immigration.  This isn't the place to discuss sociological issues.  But you're not a member of our other chat list unfortunately.  But our tiny island is bursting full of foreign nationals as it is.  We simply don't need any more of them, students or whatever they claim to be.

No, the World Service is a huge drain on resources because they also have a television service which runs in parallel to it; certainly in Africa they do. I know that, my better half used to work out there and she's seen it.

The VOA and BBC were held in high regards during the
Iron Curtain days of the Soviet Union. If you think the
government spends Millions to broadcast in all those languages,
think of spending millions to do nothing but spew noise in to
the air which is what the Soviet te Block countries did to try to
jam BBC and VOA broadcasts. Even so, people in totalitarian
countries such as North Korea risk all kinds of trouble to
listen to news which may not be perfect, but is still better
than what they get forced down their throats by the local thugs
who happen to have the biggest clubs right now.

But Martin, the point is it isn't the government spending the money. It's the BBC spending our license payer's money. Why should we be concerned with entertaining and informing those overseas? That's not our responsibility.

Quite aside from the social issues, there are all the expenses of maintain studios in most major cities of the world, paying staff to work in those countries, lots of things which make it completely overkill and a millstone around our necks.

What I am trying to say is that the dangerous times we live in might be even worse without this advertising.

It's not our job to child-mind the rest of the world, whatever the US government might believe. They dragged us kicking and screaming, against the will of the majority of the UK population, into Iraq and Afghanistan. Thanks to Bush and his poodle Blaire, we're all the worse off. But again that's outside the scope of this list.

The simple fact is that the expense cannot be justified and we should at least be given the option of whether or not we want to pay it. By we, I mean the UK paying public.

I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am saying that
broadcasting ideas about how a free society, warts and all,
works to the rest of the world is cheaper than dealing with the
consequences of not doing this.

I'm all for helping the poor of the world. But there are better ways to do it than that, I think.

I am not a bleeding heart, but more of a pragmatist in
that I agree with Thomas Jefferson who I believe said that
democracy can only survive with a well-informed public. So, if
some of it sticks somewhere else, that may be one less trouble
spot down the road.

It's not our business to enforce our ideas, our concepts of right and wrong on to other countries. That's exactly why we're in the mess we're in. Terrorism all over the place because we stuck our proverbial noses into other people's business.

No!  The sooner we get out of there the better and the sooner we ditch the BBC World Service, the better it will be for all residents of the UK who are afflicted by the annual burden of having to pay what are, to some, vast amounts of money for a TV license.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue May 18 22:19:01 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:19:01 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <D98F9A73-0687-42C2-A23A-7E14ABABD77D@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181949.o4IJn0U6081022@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D98F9A73-0687-42C2-A23A-7E14ABABD77D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <93DFEA38-8E93-49B3-B85E-ACBF8A2F8E72@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Dane

On 18 May 2010, at 21:23, Dane Trethowan wrote:

As I understand it, the BBC World Service has nothing whatever to do with the licence fee structure of the BBC? That is to say the BBC World Service is funded by the Government entirely rather than from any of the licence fee charged, could be wrong about this.  I can see where people come from when they say that the British Government shouldn't be funding the World Service - or Curled Service as i prefer to call it <smile> - but then gain its the same argument I suppose the ABC uses, you want world input to your local radio then the World Service is I have to admit one extremely useful and cheap way to get it.

Really.  So explain to me then how it is that the BBC uses the same journalists for its overseas services.  If it's separate, then how can it be called a BBC service?

In theory it may be e claimed that that's the case.  But I can tell you that you're very wrong about the government funding the service.

So let me correct you.  It's funded by the BBC's commercial arm, as opposed to its broadcasting arm.  But all the same, resources are still used which are common to the UK broadcast network.  Even were it true that the government provided the funding, that changes nothing because the government gets if funds from the British public, the tax-payer.  Ergo, the public foots the bill, irrespective.

The BBC as far as I'm aware are spending much less on the World Service than they used to thanks to the help of the Internet and satelite which allows them to do away with most of the shortwave transmitters they used to use, allows for localised content for various regions etc.

Makes no difference.  Even spending the millions a year that it costs even by today's standards to run the service is too high a price to pay.

Gordon


From gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk  Wed May 19 01:01:30 2010
From: gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk (Gillian Hadley)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 01:01:30 +0100
Subject: Horray horray itunes works properly at last
Message-ID: <FBBE3701-5D41-4DBB-A54D-E278157EE87E@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>

Hello group

I am playing with itunes for Windows with Window eyes 7.2 I think it is, the latest version.

Finally at long long long last it looks like that company has got their fingers out and fixed the annoyinbg problems where accexs mode or whatever its called would not turn on when it should have so that links were not properly spoke by the proramme. Finally it lworks right and it is usable. Took them long enough to do it but now its right at ast/.

Gillian



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed May 19 01:37:39 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:37:39 +1000
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <7D63B2C6-F926-438B-8DAF-604D2BD2225D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
	<43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8D1A18BC-3E50-4B1B-8537-EEF110155A9D@internode.on.net>
	<7D63B2C6-F926-438B-8DAF-604D2BD2225D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A128AF70-68BA-448D-8231-19B69000BE3B@internode.on.net>

Okay to your last point and it gives me great pleasure! to tell me that you're very ill informed here.

Yep, ABC News radio does take a lot of overseas programmes and why? Because that's what the listeners want, not necessarely what I want but that's what listeners want.

Comparing aBC News Radio to 5 Live is like comparing apples to oranges, two different services I'm afraid.

The ABC - as does the BBC - has its own correspondents across the world, whether they're network of correspondents is as great as the BBC'S I don't know, you certainly see the ABC'S correspondents hard at work with our ABC 24-7 news channel, I'm not sure whether that's available on the net as yet.

As for News Radio again? There are particular times when they take overseas feeds and reports and they are at night time and on the weekends when things are generally quiet.

As I say, I don't agree with what they do as it sounds totally unprofessional but there we are, if the listeners want overseas content as part of the programming then who am I to argue, they're helping to pay for it <smile>


On 19/05/2010, at 6:47 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> I have several comments here so I hope you won't take any of this personally.
> 
> On 18 May 2010, at 20:19, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Fine thanks for clarifying the licence amount and I think that amount is an outrage! myself but that's just my opinion.
> 
> I don't know of anybody, apart from those outside government and the BBCC itself who doesn't think that.
> 
> Tell me; what's the difference between a 74-year-old pensioner and a 75-year-old pensioner in terms of his or her income? Answer; absolutely nothing. I don't want to be political here. But the restrictions they've placed on this are ridiculous.
> 
> ? In Australia, we once had a licence fee for the ABC which was structure along the same lines it seems as the BBC licence fee is however our system was more flexible, it allowed all pensioners and the unemployed exemptions to the fee altogether, the idea being that the disadvantaged relied on radio to get information, to find a job or whatever.  Our licence fee was abolished altogether in 1974.
> 
> The BBC license fee does not include radio. The license is only for the use of a television.
> 
> ? Our ABC is - like the BBC - supposed ti be independent of Government control.
> 
> The BBC is independent, not supposed to be independent. Indeed they got into hot water with the government over their coverage of our joke of a general election a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> ? The ABC in Australia gets less than 9 hundred million dollars a year and - given the services they offer - I'm surprised that we can get such value for money, the ABC did a calculation not so long ago in which they worked out that it cost every Australian tax pay 8 cents per day to keep the organisation running, and that's amazing value.
> 
> Yes; but the ABC relies a lot on overseas media for its news coverage from what I have heard of 
> it. I've listened to new radio on the Internet and I have to say that in comparison to Five Live, it's a bit of a joke.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed May 19 02:02:06 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 02:02:06 +0100
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes 
In-Reply-To: <A128AF70-68BA-448D-8231-19B69000BE3B@internode.on.net>
References: <201005181834.o4IIY4QQ080391@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<D0745BEC-BE5B-49F4-8137-0EF06ED536B9@internode.on.net>
	<43DB87B3-93F7-4E10-AB53-94A856ABA10F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8D1A18BC-3E50-4B1B-8537-EEF110155A9D@internode.on.net>
	<7D63B2C6-F926-438B-8DAF-604D2BD2225D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A128AF70-68BA-448D-8231-19B69000BE3B@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <0F2D1C16-35DD-42FA-8EAA-A18E387FD6D2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 19 May 2010, at 01:37, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Okay to your last point and it gives me great pleasure! to tell me that you're very ill informed here.

Sorry? This leaves me wondering what I'm reading. What gives you great pleasure to tell you what and why? I'm totally confused by that sentence. :-)

? Yep, ABC News radio does take a lot of overseas programmes and why? Because that's what the listeners want, not necessarely what I want but that's what listeners want.

So why am I ill-informed?

? Comparing aBC News Radio to 5 Live is like comparing apples to oranges, two different services I'm afraid.

Why? BBC Five Live is a new and sport radio service. Not my cup of coffee, but there it is. ABC New Radio is a news and sport service is it not? Not my cup of coffee but there it is.

I've only listened to news radio briefly that is true. And what I heard left me feeling quite grateful actually that, poor though much of our media is, we don't have to put up with that. It was quite appalling presentation in my opinion.

I am no radio expert but I certainly wouldn't like to have to rely on that for my news and information.

? The ABC - as does the BBC - has its own correspondents across the world, whether they're network of correspondents is as great as the BBC'S I don't know, you certainly see the ABC'S correspondents hard at work with our ABC 24-7 news channel, I'm not sure whether that's available on the net as yet.

I'm commenting specifically on this one service Dane, not something I haven't heard.

? As for News Radio again? There are particular times when they take overseas feeds and reports and they are at night time and on the weekends when things are generally quiet.

As I say, I don't agree with what they do as it sounds totally unprofessional but there we are, if the listeners want overseas content as part of the programming then who am I to argue, they're helping to pay for it <smile>

Your last comment is perfectly valid. I was just expressing my personal opinion based on what I've heard. You, in your last few sentences, agreed with what I said in essence. So my question again; why and how am I ill-informed?

I'm perfectly happy to stand corrected if that should be appropriate. But as of this moment I'm not sure why it would be.

Lynne



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed May 19 13:57:10 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 07:57:10 -0500
Subject: Television License Fee Collection
Message-ID: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Many years ago, one of our Documentary programs such as
"60 Minutes" or similar did a segment on the efforts the British
government went to to collect the television license tax. They
had a van equipped with receivers designed to tune in the local
oscillators of television tuners in a building to see if there
were more sets on than paying customers. They also showed an
announcement shown on local television showing a couple of
fellows sharing a prison cell. One asks his cell mate what he is
in for and it is something terrible like murder or assault. The
violent cell mate asks "What are you in for." and the answer is
not paying the television license fee.

	They briefly interviewed one of the officers who drove
the van and he said that people caught red-handed had offered
all kinds of, shall we say, inducements to make the problem go
away. One lady even offered the oldest inducement known to man.
Think apples and the Garden of Eden. I don't remember if the guy
they interviewed was serpentine or not, but the whole thing
seemed so ridiculous.

Martin McCormick

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed May 19 18:45:14 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 03:45:14 +1000
Subject: Television License Fee Collection
In-Reply-To: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C5AF5B92-21BC-4B60-8E08-596539773E92@internode.on.net>

As a footnote to this and a bit of a change of subject, I was listening to BBC Radio II yesterday morning, where on earth did they dig that Chris Evans up from? I've heard some things on radio in my time but that jerk is about the absolute worst!


On 19/05/2010, at 10:57 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Many years ago, one of our Documentary programs such as
> "60 Minutes" or similar did a segment on the efforts the British
> government went to to collect the television license tax. They
> had a van equipped with receivers designed to tune in the local
> oscillators of television tuners in a building to see if there
> were more sets on than paying customers. They also showed an
> announcement shown on local television showing a couple of
> fellows sharing a prison cell. One asks his cell mate what he is
> in for and it is something terrible like murder or assault. The
> violent cell mate asks "What are you in for." and the answer is
> not paying the television license fee.
> 
> 	They briefly interviewed one of the officers who drove
> the van and he said that people caught red-handed had offered
> all kinds of, shall we say, inducements to make the problem go
> away. One lady even offered the oldest inducement known to man.
> Think apples and the Garden of Eden. I don't remember if the guy
> they interviewed was serpentine or not, but the whole thing
> seemed so ridiculous.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed May 19 22:13:53 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:13:53 +0100
Subject: Television License Fee Collection
In-Reply-To: <C5AF5B92-21BC-4B60-8E08-596539773E92@internode.on.net>
References: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<C5AF5B92-21BC-4B60-8E08-596539773E92@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <773C9CC7-F3DE-4BAA-AB35-9AF7684A5B67@tft-bbs.co.uk>

How does your opinion of Chris Evans qualify as technological chat? <smile>.

Actually, Chris Evans used to own Virgin Radio, believe it or not. In its early days, I mean, before Richard Branson won his legal battle over the use of the name.

Evans then moved to Radio 1, was subsequently dismissed for using fowl language on air and then, a couple of years later, he joined radio 2.  He's been there ever since and, although I could be wrong about this, I believe he's taken over from Terry Wogan who retired at the end of last year at the tender age of 85.

Gordon

On 19 May 2010, at 18:45, Dane Trethowan wrote:

As a footnote to this and a bit of a change of subject, I was listening to BBC Radio II yesterday morning, where on earth did they dig that Chris Evans up from? I've heard some things on radio in my time but that jerk is about the absolute worst!



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu May 20 00:41:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:41:11 +1000
Subject: Television License Fee Collection
In-Reply-To: <773C9CC7-F3DE-4BAA-AB35-9AF7684A5B67@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<C5AF5B92-21BC-4B60-8E08-596539773E92@internode.on.net>
	<773C9CC7-F3DE-4BAA-AB35-9AF7684A5B67@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BCB001F9-A442-4C34-B134-7F07FAF81672@internode.on.net>

Yep you're right about the replacement and you're also right! this chap doesn't even qualify for a mention on any forum <smile>.


On 20/05/2010, at 7:13 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> How does your opinion of Chris Evans qualify as technological chat? <smile>.
> 
> Actually, Chris Evans used to own Virgin Radio, believe it or not. In its early days, I mean, before Richard Branson won his legal battle over the use of the name.
> 
> Evans then moved to Radio 1, was subsequently dismissed for using fowl language on air and then, a couple of years later, he joined radio 2.  He's been there ever since and, although I could be wrong about this, I believe he's taken over from Terry Wogan who retired at the end of last year at the tender age of 85.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 19 May 2010, at 18:45, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> As a footnote to this and a bit of a change of subject, I was listening to BBC Radio II yesterday morning, where on earth did they dig that Chris Evans up from? I've heard some things on radio in my time but that jerk is about the absolute worst!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu May 20 17:08:28 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:08:28 -0500
Subject: Personal Radio Communications
Message-ID: <201005201608.o4KG8SbB095642@x.it.okstate.edu>

As an amateur radio operator, I am always interested in radio
communications even when it is not amateur, specifically. We
have had CB or Citizens Band radio in the United States since
1958. It was meant to enable small businesses to buy relatively
cheap two-way radios and for people, in general, to use it to
get help on the road or keep track of each other on a hike, etc.

	The signals on North American CB can either be AM or
single sideband. There are 40 channels which, if SSB is used
could theoretically support 80 conversations as 2 sets of
conversations could use the same channel if they used different
sidebands.

	In the United states, CB reached its peak activity in
the early to mid seventies and is slowly dying as far as I can
tell. A couple of things act as flies in the ointment.

	The 27 MHZ band is prime territory for a couple of
ionospheric phenomena which greatly reduce CB's ability to be
used in its intended manner.

	One is called the F2 layer. This is the highest layer of
our ionosphere and is around 300 miles high or so. It reflects
radio signals in this range of frequencies beautifully when it
becomes charged. It is not unheard of for a CB radio operator in
one part of the United State or Canada to suffer strong
interference from CB signals thousands of miles away. Another
ionospheric phenomenon is the E layer which is about 60 miles
above the earth. It also strongly reflects signals back to Earth
but at a shorter range. Sporadic E signals are usually in the
300 to 1,000 mile range and do not show selective fading
although they can fade from tremendously strong down to nothing
and back just like F2 signals. Sporadic E is common from May
through about August and there is a shorter and usually
less-intense Sporadic E season between late November and
February.

	Ham radio operators love it because we can talk to other
parts of the country or the world but CB users are forced to
just tough it out. It amounts to jamming by Mother Nature.

	Because of this skip, CB in North America has a deserved
reputation for basic lawlessness. People who do not want to
bother with studying for the amateur radio licenses will put
together illegal transmitters with high-power amplifiers and
simply over-power the 5-watt legal transmitters. Of course, this
makes the skip problems even worse.

	Today, what you see a lot of the time around public
events and construction sites are people carrying small portable
transceivers using what our Federal Communications Commission or
FCC refers to as FRS or Family Radio Service. This is 14 FM
channels in the mid UHF range. The first 7 channels are in the
462-462.7 or so range while the second group of 7 are in the 467
to 467.7 range.

	These walkie talkies are fairly sophisticated in that
they have subaudible tones that the users can select to minimize
interference and, frankly, 14 channels is good enough in many
instances. Basically, if you hear somebody else, find another
channel.

	Since these frequencies are UHF, there isn't the
incentive to attach illegal amplifiers as they do not really
achieve that much. Hight is what really gets out.

	This type of communication makes since to me for work
site coordination or similar activity by a group of hikers or
campers.

	I know that there is a similar CB service in the UK. It
uses the 27 MHZ band but also uses FM instead of AM. I wonder if
British CB suffers from the same interference and abuse that
plagues CB in the US and Canada?

	I would think that the next World Radio Administrative
conference might do well to return the 27 MHZ band to amateur
use as it was before 1958 and expand the FRS-type service, maybe
using some of the old television spectrum which got freed when
analog broadcasts went off.

	I never got in to the CB
world other than to listen to see what kind of skip is out there
today and marvel at the blatant misuse of those frequencies
while feeling sorry for those who wanted to use them properly.
In truth, the eleven-meter amateur band as it existed up to 1958
was shared as what is called ISM which stands for Industrial,
Scientific and Medical applications. These are applications that
use radio waves to heat things such as lumber that needs to dry
or sore muscles in someone's back. Microwave ovens use ISM
frequencies so there are ISM channels sprinkled throughout the
whole spectrum. Anyway, there used to be lots of buzzes and
whines on the eleven-meter ham band along with communication.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu May 20 17:33:30 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 02:33:30 +1000
Subject: Personal Radio Communications
In-Reply-To: <201005201608.o4KG8SbB095642@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005201608.o4KG8SbB095642@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <0547D906-6329-4F9A-956A-6D60658732DC@internode.on.net>

Interesting post, I thought Citizen's band radio had died a natural  
death in Australia, apparently not and the sales pitch these days is  
directed towards those people adventuring into the outback, venturing  
off the beaten track and so forth.



Sent from Dane's Ophone +61457756048

On 21/05/2010, at 2:08 AM, Martin McCormick <martin at x.it.okstate.edu>  
wrote:

> As an amateur radio operator, I am always interested in radio
> communications even when it is not amateur, specifically. We
> have had CB or Citizens Band radio in the United States since
> 1958. It was meant to enable small businesses to buy relatively
> cheap two-way radios and for people, in general, to use it to
> get help on the road or keep track of each other on a hike, etc.
>
>    The signals on North American CB can either be AM or
> single sideband. There are 40 channels which, if SSB is used
> could theoretically support 80 conversations as 2 sets of
> conversations could use the same channel if they used different
> sidebands.
>
>    In the United states, CB reached its peak activity in
> the early to mid seventies and is slowly dying as far as I can
> tell. A couple of things act as flies in the ointment.
>
>    The 27 MHZ band is prime territory for a couple of
> ionospheric phenomena which greatly reduce CB's ability to be
> used in its intended manner.
>
>    One is called the F2 layer. This is the highest layer of
> our ionosphere and is around 300 miles high or so. It reflects
> radio signals in this range of frequencies beautifully when it
> becomes charged. It is not unheard of for a CB radio operator in
> one part of the United State or Canada to suffer strong
> interference from CB signals thousands of miles away. Another
> ionospheric phenomenon is the E layer which is about 60 miles
> above the earth. It also strongly reflects signals back to Earth
> but at a shorter range. Sporadic E signals are usually in the
> 300 to 1,000 mile range and do not show selective fading
> although they can fade from tremendously strong down to nothing
> and back just like F2 signals. Sporadic E is common from May
> through about August and there is a shorter and usually
> less-intense Sporadic E season between late November and
> February.
>
>    Ham radio operators love it because we can talk to other
> parts of the country or the world but CB users are forced to
> just tough it out. It amounts to jamming by Mother Nature.
>
>    Because of this skip, CB in North America has a deserved
> reputation for basic lawlessness. People who do not want to
> bother with studying for the amateur radio licenses will put
> together illegal transmitters with high-power amplifiers and
> simply over-power the 5-watt legal transmitters. Of course, this
> makes the skip problems even worse.
>
>    Today, what you see a lot of the time around public
> events and construction sites are people carrying small portable
> transceivers using what our Federal Communications Commission or
> FCC refers to as FRS or Family Radio Service. This is 14 FM
> channels in the mid UHF range. The first 7 channels are in the
> 462-462.7 or so range while the second group of 7 are in the 467
> to 467.7 range.
>
>    These walkie talkies are fairly sophisticated in that
> they have subaudible tones that the users can select to minimize
> interference and, frankly, 14 channels is good enough in many
> instances. Basically, if you hear somebody else, find another
> channel.
>
>    Since these frequencies are UHF, there isn't the
> incentive to attach illegal amplifiers as they do not really
> achieve that much. Hight is what really gets out.
>
>    This type of communication makes since to me for work
> site coordination or similar activity by a group of hikers or
> campers.
>
>    I know that there is a similar CB service in the UK. It
> uses the 27 MHZ band but also uses FM instead of AM. I wonder if
> British CB suffers from the same interference and abuse that
> plagues CB in the US and Canada?
>
>    I would think that the next World Radio Administrative
> conference might do well to return the 27 MHZ band to amateur
> use as it was before 1958 and expand the FRS-type service, maybe
> using some of the old television spectrum which got freed when
> analog broadcasts went off.
>
>    I never got in to the CB
> world other than to listen to see what kind of skip is out there
> today and marvel at the blatant misuse of those frequencies
> while feeling sorry for those who wanted to use them properly.
> In truth, the eleven-meter amateur band as it existed up to 1958
> was shared as what is called ISM which stands for Industrial,
> Scientific and Medical applications. These are applications that
> use radio waves to heat things such as lumber that needs to dry
> or sore muscles in someone's back. Microwave ovens use ISM
> frequencies so there are ISM channels sprinkled throughout the
> whole spectrum. Anyway, there used to be lots of buzzes and
> whines on the eleven-meter ham band along with communication.
>
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services  
> Group
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,  
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's  
> dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat  
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri May 21 09:18:34 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 09:18:34 +0100
Subject: Personal Radio Communications
In-Reply-To: <201005201608.o4KG8SbB095642@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005201608.o4KG8SbB095642@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <22F9A3B0-9077-4DBE-B8CC-43A6BC345C41@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Ah, CB, the good old days!

Well, here in the UK citizens band radio wasn't legalised until November 1981, believe it or not.  And even then, the government opted for an unworkable unenforceable license system where one would simply go to the local post office, fill out a form and pay one's 10 Pounds for a license.

Then one would usually high-tail it down to the local CB emporium and grab one's self one of the latest all singing all dancing radios and, of course, a "cool antenna" to go with it.

The range of ineffective, inefficient antennaiu which were marketed back in those days you simply wouldn't believe.

UK CB radio is located just below the amateur 10 meter band, at the very top end of 27 MHZ finishing at 27.98125 MHZ, decrementing in 10 KHZ steps from that point until the 40 channels were used.

Because the signals were all FM, rather than AM as they were in the states and Europe, there were a lot of problems with adjacent signal interference (crudely referred too as "Bleed-over) and this resulted in many an argument which I personally witnessed and, to my shame, participated in.

It was and, I think, still is the law that no radio transmitter in that band shall exceed a maximum of 4 Watts RF output.  But, of course, there were no such rules governing the usage and design of antennae, with the exception that no antenna was to be mounted external to a building at a height in excess of 10 meters above the ground.  (10 meters being, of course, almost a full wavelength) which, I think, was significant in their thinking.

Naturally, therefore, the 0-DB di-pole antenna design which the law-makers envisaged being used were frequently not used.  Thus, the ERP of most transmissions equated to significantly more than the law-makers who, quite honestly and obviously, din't have much of a clue when it came to either antenna design or human honesty. :-)

Over here, the frequencies used by the rest of Europe and, of course, the UsA were used at that time for all kinds of things.  Hospital medical equipment, alarms, security systems, all sorts of stuff.

So, when CD radios appeared on the scene and the use of them really took off in the late 70s and early 80s, AM and SSB equipment flooded the market and created all kinds of problems for the slow to respond and inadequate in their response UK authorities.

UK CB seemed, for a while, as though it would succeed.  But people eventually started abusing it, of course.  Using it to create their own music radio stations, flooding it with those silly power-amplified and echo generating microphones which flooded the market from the US.

All this, couple with the total inability to use the equipment by a large majority of the CB-enabled UK public, resulted in the bursting of the CB bubble within a very short time.

The soul beneficiary of this, and perhaps this was a calculated decision by the authorities, I don't know, but the ones who gained the most from this ultimately were those who really wanted to take the hobby further and move into what was then serious amateur radio.

That number included myself, and I got my B-class license, (as it was then), in February 1984, having sat, and passed with distinction, the Radio Amateur Examination, (City & Guilds paper 765 parts A and B), in November 1983.  I soon became bored with the constraints of the B license, however.

In January 1985, the DTI (who then controlled radio communications in the uK), introduced legislation that allowed B-class licensees to use Morse Code on certain parts of the 144 MHZ band, with certain classes of emission.  I.e., it must be F2E, nothing else.

I took up the challenge in April, and on the 6th of June 1985, I sat my Morse examination at the UK Coast Guard station at a place called Colour Coats on the North East coast of England.
In those days, it was the responsibility of the coast guard to oversee all such tests.  As a disable person I had the right, if I chose, to do the test at home, under different conditions to that of the general public.

I refused to take this option however, as I didn't see it as fair that I should get in via the back door, so to speak, and I wanted to compete on the same level as anybody else.  I didn't want it said that I used my disability to gain an unfair advantage.  The same was true of the RAE itself, and I don't regret those decisions.

I passed the test first time, much to my embarrassment.  I say that because the friend with whom I went to the centre to sit the test failed his test on the day and it left me feeling very awkward on the hour-long homeward journey.

There was I longing to sing and shout that I'd achieved a pass but not daring to do so because my friend was feeling so down about failing.  He did take it again shortly afterwards and, I'm pleased to say, passed second time.

Anyway, I'm straying way off the point.  This all allowed me to use HF and, as I soon discovered, HF was not all it was cracked up to be.  I soon became bored with the rubber stamp type QSO.  You know the type Martin - "Your RST is 5/9, my QTH is bla bla bla, I'll send you a card via the bureau".  That sort of stuff.

I then discovered the joys of computers, and the way that the 2 hobbies could walk hand in hand.  And, eventually, my interest in computers began to usurp my interest in radio altogether.

I still enjoy the odd chat on VHF - although all my old sparring partners have gone their own ways now.  Thus, I don't use amateur radio all that much, if at all.

My HF equipment is currently out of service, and I have no antenna.  My VHF equipment is still hooked up, ready for use.  But I just don't have the interest any more, due probably to the lack of activity.

Frankly, I get very bored very quickly just listening to radio.  I always have.  I've never been one of these people who enjoy long-distance surfing the bands.  To be honest, I'd rather sit and watch paint dry!

Anyway, that' just a little jaunt through my own amateur radio history.  I also have a history in professional radio and broadcasting, but I won't bore the list further with that.

Suffice it to say that my days in local radio were the happiest days of my working life.  Those 9 years seemed to fly by, and I'll cherish their memory for as long as memory holds.
Gordon



On 20 May 2010, at 17:08, Martin McCormick wrote:

As an amateur radio operator, I am always interested in radio
communications even when it is not amateur, specifically. We
have had CB or Citizens Band radio in the United States since
1958. It was meant to enable small businesses to buy relatively
cheap two-way radios and for people, in general, to use it to
get help on the road or keep track of each other on a hike, etc.

	The signals on North American CB can either be AM or
single sideband. There are 40 channels which, if SSB is used
could theoretically support 80 conversations as 2 sets of
conversations could use the same channel if they used different
sidebands.

	In the United states, CB reached its peak activity in
the early to mid seventies and is slowly dying as far as I can
tell. A couple of things act as flies in the ointment.

	The 27 MHZ band is prime territory for a couple of
ionospheric phenomena which greatly reduce CB's ability to be
used in its intended manner.

	One is called the F2 layer. This is the highest layer of
our ionosphere and is around 300 miles high or so. It reflects
radio signals in this range of frequencies beautifully when it
becomes charged. It is not unheard of for a CB radio operator in
one part of the United State or Canada to suffer strong
interference from CB signals thousands of miles away. Another
ionospheric phenomenon is the E layer which is about 60 miles
above the earth. It also strongly reflects signals back to Earth
but at a shorter range. Sporadic E signals are usually in the
300 to 1,000 mile range and do not show selective fading
although they can fade from tremendously strong down to nothing
and back just like F2 signals. Sporadic E is common from May
through about August and there is a shorter and usually
less-intense Sporadic E season between late November and
February.

	Ham radio operators love it because we can talk to other
parts of the country or the world but CB users are forced to
just tough it out. It amounts to jamming by Mother Nature.

	Because of this skip, CB in North America has a deserved
reputation for basic lawlessness. People who do not want to
bother with studying for the amateur radio licenses will put
together illegal transmitters with high-power amplifiers and
simply over-power the 5-watt legal transmitters. Of course, this
makes the skip problems even worse.

	Today, what you see a lot of the time around public
events and construction sites are people carrying small portable
transceivers using what our Federal Communications Commission or
FCC refers to as FRS or Family Radio Service. This is 14 FM
channels in the mid UHF range. The first 7 channels are in the
462-462.7 or so range while the second group of 7 are in the 467
to 467.7 range.

	These walkie talkies are fairly sophisticated in that
they have subaudible tones that the users can select to minimize
interference and, frankly, 14 channels is good enough in many
instances. Basically, if you hear somebody else, find another
channel.

	Since these frequencies are UHF, there isn't the
incentive to attach illegal amplifiers as they do not really
achieve that much. Hight is what really gets out.

	This type of communication makes since to me for work
site coordination or similar activity by a group of hikers or
campers.

	I know that there is a similar CB service in the UK. It
uses the 27 MHZ band but also uses FM instead of AM. I wonder if
British CB suffers from the same interference and abuse that
plagues CB in the US and Canada?

	I would think that the next World Radio Administrative
conference might do well to return the 27 MHZ band to amateur
use as it was before 1958 and expand the FRS-type service, maybe
using some of the old television spectrum which got freed when
analog broadcasts went off.

	I never got in to the CB
world other than to listen to see what kind of skip is out there
today and marvel at the blatant misuse of those frequencies
while feeling sorry for those who wanted to use them properly.
In truth, the eleven-meter amateur band as it existed up to 1958
was shared as what is called ISM which stands for Industrial,
Scientific and Medical applications. These are applications that
use radio waves to heat things such as lumber that needs to dry
or sore muscles in someone's back. Microwave ovens use ISM
frequencies so there are ISM channels sprinkled throughout the
whole spectrum. Anyway, there used to be lots of buzzes and
whines on the eleven-meter ham band along with communication.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May 22 17:39:53 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 17:39:53 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
Message-ID: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Does anybody on this list still use Plextalk hardware or, for that matter, other DAISY players and or recorders?  If so, I would appreciate a discussion ... objectively I mean ...  not a "my toy's better than your toy" type discussion ... as to the relative merits and otherwise of each model.


From tvii at optonline.net  Sat May 22 17:54:24 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 12:54:24 -0400
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>

     I have experience using the VR Stream and MileStone 312 with limited use of the Plextalk Pocket.  Frankly, when you get down to it, they all basically do the same sorts of things.  I really couldn't get into any "what is better" discussions, as I find them all to be useful for what they set out to do.

     The MS312, at the moment, is my tool of choice as it is smaller than the others.  The only big reason I use these sorts of players is mainly for the Daisy NLS material.  Also, some text files as well, though I will often convert them on the Mac into audio formats.

     In any event, if there is anything specific that needs to be discussed, I'll give it a shot.

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On May 22, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> Does anybody on this list still use Plextalk hardware or, for that matter, other DAISY players and or recorders?  If so, I would appreciate a discussion ... objectively I mean ...  not a "my toy's better than your toy" type discussion ... as to the relative merits and otherwise of each model.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May 22 20:31:07 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 20:31:07 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi John

Specifically, I'm interested in DAISY navigability and usability.  The other formats are, in the context of this discussion, incidental.  What I'd like to know is whether users of one product or another, be it the Milestone, Plextalk PTR1, PTX1 (hardware or software version), or any other DAISY player, ((including software on any platform).

I personally use 3 players at the moment, and I'd dabbled with a fourth.  Namely the Plextalk PTX2, ReadHear Mac, Oleria Mac and Dolphin Computer Access EaseReader for Windows.

EaseReader didn't, to be honest, impress me much at all.  I found it restrictive and cumbersome to use and I really found the enforced speech guidance nauseating.

ReadHear Mac is very flexible and usable.  But there are aspects of that package which also irritate me.  The same is true of Oleria for Mac.

Plextalk PTX2 is an interesting device.  Although again there are aspects of it which irritate me.  I'm preparing a detailed podcast on that machine actually, but that's another matter.

Gordon

On 22 May 2010, at 17:54, John Panarese wrote:

    I have experience using the VR Stream and MileStone 312 with limited use of the Plextalk Pocket.  Frankly, when you get down to it, they all basically do the same sorts of things.  I really couldn't get into any "what is better" discussions, as I find them all to be useful for what they set out to do.

    The MS312, at the moment, is my tool of choice as it is smaller than the others.  The only big reason I use these sorts of players is mainly for the Daisy NLS material.  Also, some text files as well, though I will often convert them on the Mac into audio formats.

    In any event, if there is anything specific that needs to be discussed, I'll give it a shot.

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On May 22, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> Does anybody on this list still use Plextalk hardware or, for that matter, other DAISY players and or recorders?  If so, I would appreciate a discussion ... objectively I mean ...  not a "my toy's better than your toy" type discussion ... as to the relative merits and otherwise of each model.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From tvii at optonline.net  Sat May 22 23:05:11 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 18:05:11 -0400
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>

hi Gordon,
     Well, specifically in speaking about the Stream and the MS312, they seem to both offer flexible navigation.  I think the Stream might be "easier" to use for most people, but that is not to say that the MS312 is overly difficult.  If there is one thing HumanWare is good at, it is making their products pretty easy to operate.


Take Care

John Panarese

On May 22, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi John
> 
> Specifically, I'm interested in DAISY navigability and usability.  The other formats are, in the context of this discussion, incidental.  What I'd like to know is whether users of one product or another, be it the Milestone, Plextalk PTR1, PTX1 (hardware or software version), or any other DAISY player, ((including software on any platform).
> 
> I personally use 3 players at the moment, and I'd dabbled with a fourth.  Namely the Plextalk PTX2, ReadHear Mac, Oleria Mac and Dolphin Computer Access EaseReader for Windows.
> 
> EaseReader didn't, to be honest, impress me much at all.  I found it restrictive and cumbersome to use and I really found the enforced speech guidance nauseating.
> 
> ReadHear Mac is very flexible and usable.  But there are aspects of that package which also irritate me.  The same is true of Oleria for Mac.
> 
> Plextalk PTX2 is an interesting device.  Although again there are aspects of it which irritate me.  I'm preparing a detailed podcast on that machine actually, but that's another matter.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 22 May 2010, at 17:54, John Panarese wrote:
> 
>    I have experience using the VR Stream and MileStone 312 with limited use of the Plextalk Pocket.  Frankly, when you get down to it, they all basically do the same sorts of things.  I really couldn't get into any "what is better" discussions, as I find them all to be useful for what they set out to do.
> 
>    The MS312, at the moment, is my tool of choice as it is smaller than the others.  The only big reason I use these sorts of players is mainly for the Daisy NLS material.  Also, some text files as well, though I will often convert them on the Mac into audio formats.
> 
>    In any event, if there is anything specific that needs to be discussed, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Managing Director
> Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
> 9 Nolan Court
> Hauppauge, NY 11788
> Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
> Email, tvii at optonline.net
> Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com
> 
> AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED
> 
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> On May 22, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hi all
>> 
>> Does anybody on this list still use Plextalk hardware or, for that matter, other DAISY players and or recorders?  If so, I would appreciate a discussion ... objectively I mean ...  not a "my toy's better than your toy" type discussion ... as to the relative merits and otherwise of each model.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun May 23 09:04:34 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 09:04:34 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 22 May 2010, at 23:05, John Panarese wrote:

? Well, specifically in speaking about the Stream and the MS312, they seem to both offer flexible navigation.  I think the Stream might be "easier" to use for most people, but that is not to say that the MS312 is overly difficult.  If there is one thing HumanWare is good at, it is making their products pretty easy to operate.

I know Gordon has 3 available Braille displays that he uses in various places on the Mac. In my office at work, he uses a Connect 40. At his office at his own place of work, he uses the Connect 80. At home here, he uses the Brailliant 40. All of those devices are excellent, and I know Gordon's very pleased with them all.

The connect is ideal for him because he didn't want all the nonsense of notetakers just so he could use it as a Braille display and input device. Now I'd better qualify that before I have half the world jumping on me. Nonsense in his view, but not in other people's. Gordon soesn't have the need for a Windows device just to take notes and, quite honestly, we couldn't justify the expense or the inconvenience.

But the Connect devices are perfect for Gordon's needs and as I say they're excellent Humanware devices. Come September when iPnone 4 is released, he'll be able to use Bluetooth Braille there as well on his iPad, which he gets in the next few days.

But back to streaming devices. We have played with a VRS and we weren't that impresses with it as a device. But this line of enquiry relates specifically to the DAISY playback functionality and nothing more.

We have heard good reports from a friend of ours who uses the older Milestone 311 model; so it would be interesting to know what the differences are between that and the 312.

Gordon is working on a podcast detailing the functionality of the Plextalk PR2 and we'll let the list know when that's done if anybody is interested.

I gather there is now a new model of the VRS available called the VRS/CD.

Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Sun May 23 17:05:13 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 12:05:13 -0400
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>

    I never used a MS 311, so I cannot say anything about it.  I am just impressed with the MS312 overall.  Realistically, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, but if NLS enables iPods to ever play their content, I won't really have a need for any of these "blindness" solutions.  However, this is not to say that they don't have a place in the market.

    I have no complaints about the VR stream.  I have used it for quite some time, and it has done the job I've needed it to do.  As I said, though, I like the MS312 for its size and additional features.  I do have a PlexTalk Pocket that I really should try a bit more extensively, so if this is the model Gordon is going to do a Podcast about, I'd be interested in it.


Take Care

John Panarese

On May 23, 2010, at 4:04 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> On 22 May 2010, at 23:05, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? Well, specifically in speaking about the Stream and the MS312, they seem to both offer flexible navigation.  I think the Stream might be "easier" to use for most people, but that is not to say that the MS312 is overly difficult.  If there is one thing HumanWare is good at, it is making their products pretty easy to operate.
> 
> I know Gordon has 3 available Braille displays that he uses in various places on the Mac. In my office at work, he uses a Connect 40. At his office at his own place of work, he uses the Connect 80. At home here, he uses the Brailliant 40. All of those devices are excellent, and I know Gordon's very pleased with them all.
> 
> The connect is ideal for him because he didn't want all the nonsense of notetakers just so he could use it as a Braille display and input device. Now I'd better qualify that before I have half the world jumping on me. Nonsense in his view, but not in other people's. Gordon soesn't have the need for a Windows device just to take notes and, quite honestly, we couldn't justify the expense or the inconvenience.
> 
> But the Connect devices are perfect for Gordon's needs and as I say they're excellent Humanware devices. Come September when iPnone 4 is released, he'll be able to use Bluetooth Braille there as well on his iPad, which he gets in the next few days.
> 
> But back to streaming devices. We have played with a VRS and we weren't that impresses with it as a device. But this line of enquiry relates specifically to the DAISY playback functionality and nothing more.
> 
> We have heard good reports from a friend of ours who uses the older Milestone 311 model; so it would be interesting to know what the differences are between that and the 312.
> 
> Gordon is working on a podcast detailing the functionality of the Plextalk PR2 and we'll let the list know when that's done if anybody is interested.
> 
> I gather there is now a new model of the VRS available called the VRS/CD.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun May 23 18:51:07 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:51:07 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 23 May 2010, at 17:05, John Panarese wrote:

? I never used a MS 311, so I cannot say anything about it.  I am just impressed with the MS312 overall.  Realistically, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, but if NLS enables iPods to ever play their content, I won't really have a need for any of these "blindness" solutions.  However, this is not to say that they don't have a place in the market.

As we understand it, GH Accessibility is shortly going to release a DAISY player for iPhone, iPod and iPad. That will fill a very big hole I think.

? I have no complaints about the VR stream.  I have used it for quite some time, and it has done the job I've needed it to do.  As I said, though, I like the MS312 for its size and additional features.  I do have a PlexTalk Pocket that I really should try a bit more extensively, so if this is the model Gordon is going to do a Podcast about, I'd be interested in it.

We looked closely at the VRS and decided that it wasn't the player for us for a number of reasons. But that's fine; it suits others.

No, Gordon's podcast is about the Plextalk PTR2, which is the portable DAISY recorder and player.
Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Sun May 23 18:58:31 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 13:58:31 -0400
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
	<1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5D4DD015-9CF3-4FC8-8817-7955A2CD8B59@optonline.net>

      The only problem with a Daisy player is in the states, it sill will not be able to play the NLS books.  I really wish that those folks would get a grip on reality.  I hate  politics of any kind, and that subject is something that gets my blood bolting.

    Oh, ok.  Actually, I do own a PTR2, so I'd still like to hear it.  I used to use it a lot, but it's kind of been collecting dust on a shelf.

Take Care
John

Take Care

John Panarese

On May 23, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> On 23 May 2010, at 17:05, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? I never used a MS 311, so I cannot say anything about it.  I am just impressed with the MS312 overall.  Realistically, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, but if NLS enables iPods to ever play their content, I won't really have a need for any of these "blindness" solutions.  However, this is not to say that they don't have a place in the market.
> 
> As we understand it, GH Accessibility is shortly going to release a DAISY player for iPhone, iPod and iPad. That will fill a very big hole I think.
> 
> ? I have no complaints about the VR stream.  I have used it for quite some time, and it has done the job I've needed it to do.  As I said, though, I like the MS312 for its size and additional features.  I do have a PlexTalk Pocket that I really should try a bit more extensively, so if this is the model Gordon is going to do a Podcast about, I'd be interested in it.
> 
> We looked closely at the VRS and decided that it wasn't the player for us for a number of reasons. But that's fine; it suits others.
> 
> No, Gordon's podcast is about the Plextalk PTR2, which is the portable DAISY recorder and player.
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 24 05:55:05 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 05:55:05 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <5D4DD015-9CF3-4FC8-8817-7955A2CD8B59@optonline.net>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
	<1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<5D4DD015-9CF3-4FC8-8817-7955A2CD8B59@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <0748B301-4943-422C-924D-237BE0A0DCFD@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 23 May 2010, at 18:58, John Panarese wrote:

? The only problem with a Daisy player is in the states, it sill will not be able to play the NLS books.  I really wish that those folks would get a grip on reality.  I hate  politics of any kind, and that subject is something that gets my blood bolting.

By NLS format, (sorry to show my ignorance), do you mean what some people call the Digital Talking Book format? If so, Bordon's Plextalk PTR2 handles them fine.

GW Micro uses that format for its manuals (but they call it DAISY). And Gordon's Plextalk plays it no problem.

? Oh, ok.  Actually, I do own a PTR2, so I'd still like to hear it.  I used to use it a lot, but it's kind of been collecting dust on a shelf.

Gosh! What a waste! A powerful device like that gathering dust. :-)

Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Mon May 24 18:15:48 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:15:48 -0400
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <0748B301-4943-422C-924D-237BE0A0DCFD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
	<1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<5D4DD015-9CF3-4FC8-8817-7955A2CD8B59@optonline.net>
	<0748B301-4943-422C-924D-237BE0A0DCFD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6480F0CB-8265-4943-9032-37DE199C95AA@optonline.net>

Hi Lynne,
     NLS has their own copyright protection or DRM or whatever you want to call it.  You need to have an authorized player to listen to their books and get that player authorized with a software key.  From what I've read, they refuse to offer this to iPods and the like because they fear the books will be used by anyone.

     Don't get me wrong.  I like the PTR2 and have demonstrated it in the past.  I just never got comfortable utilizing it full time.  It's a bit complex and I honestly did not find a daily use for it.  If I had owned one of them back in college and grad school, however, I really would have put it through its paces.

Take Care

John Panarese

On May 24, 2010, at 12:55 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> On 23 May 2010, at 18:58, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? The only problem with a Daisy player is in the states, it sill will not be able to play the NLS books.  I really wish that those folks would get a grip on reality.  I hate  politics of any kind, and that subject is something that gets my blood bolting.
> 
> By NLS format, (sorry to show my ignorance), do you mean what some people call the Digital Talking Book format? If so, Bordon's Plextalk PTR2 handles them fine.
> 
> GW Micro uses that format for its manuals (but they call it DAISY). And Gordon's Plextalk plays it no problem.
> 
> ? Oh, ok.  Actually, I do own a PTR2, so I'd still like to hear it.  I used to use it a lot, but it's kind of been collecting dust on a shelf.
> 
> Gosh! What a waste! A powerful device like that gathering dust. :-)
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 24 18:56:00 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:56:00 +0100
Subject: Plextalk DAISY hardware
In-Reply-To: <6480F0CB-8265-4943-9032-37DE199C95AA@optonline.net>
References: <BBC4D9E3-B99F-4907-BA2B-42FE65B1EC52@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<08BF8209-DEDC-4786-AC68-F72322928BED@optonline.net>
	<372AC7D3-A3AD-4D58-8844-867776A6E7A9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<73A8EF35-E459-4F2B-80E5-B49645CEDC7B@optonline.net>
	<4C7F56DC-2084-49B1-BE9A-603DA82C9670@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<59691721-B3B4-461E-BB81-4861B056F574@optonline.net>
	<1C227930-9F24-4229-9D62-D4DFA2378473@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<5D4DD015-9CF3-4FC8-8817-7955A2CD8B59@optonline.net>
	<0748B301-4943-422C-924D-237BE0A0DCFD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6480F0CB-8265-4943-9032-37DE199C95AA@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <8908E66A-706D-4BD7-ADB9-E76FEF96520F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 24 May 2010, at 18:15, John Panarese wrote:

? NLS has their own copyright protection or DRM or whatever you want to call it.  You need to have an authorized player to listen to their books and get that player authorized with a software key.  From what I've read, they refuse to offer this to iPods and the like because they fear the books will be used by anyone.

I'm guessing then that this isn't what we have. I don't think Gordon would be too interested in going down that road.

? Don't get me wrong.  I like the PTR2 and have demonstrated it in the past.  I just never got comfortable utilizing it full time.  It's a bit complex and I honestly did not find a daily use for it.  If I had owned one of them back in college and grad school, however, I really would have put it through its paces.

As you will find if you listen to Gordon's podcast when it's done, it's as complex or as simple as you need it to be.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon May 24 20:30:59 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:30:59 -0500
Subject: BBC Radio 1 Changes I Found the new Link.
Message-ID: <201005241930.o4OJUxWO025467@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I went a bit more diligently through the BBC web site
again at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/listenonline

All the links appear to be starting about 8 screens down from
the top. I used lynx as in l y n x because I wanted to easily
capture the actual link. All the BBC radio#'s are there and
the confusion is also there because each link is just labeled
"listen" so you hear listen listen listen *See notes* listen.
The first listen links to more iplayer stuff. The next one
appears to be paydirt. It is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r1.asx

Lynx shows this as a video link, but mplayer plays the radio1
sound like it should.

Martin McCormick

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed May 26 02:59:33 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:59:33 -0500
Subject: Personal Radio Communications 
Message-ID: <201005260159.o4Q1xXwZ036309@x.it.okstate.edu>

	It sounds like the deviation on the UK CB sets is
probably less than 5 KHZ if the channels are 10 KHZ apart.
Either that or one is guaranteed serious interference if 2
conversations are on adjacent channels. I can imagine this being
a real problem in any large town as people could accidentally
cause this situation as they drove around or one could get
clobbered if they and whoever they were talking to got quiet for
awhile. Somebody else could innocently start up on one channel
above or below and I bet the excursions of the FM signal would
shred reception of weak signals.

	Did the British CB's have subaudible tones or CTCSS as
it is technically known? Those little UHF portables in the
Family Radio Service do have that and the channels are 25 KHZ
apart.

	One other observation on CB. In the Americas, there is a
huge amount of purely illegal single sideband activity just
below ten meters. It is fair to say that they pretty much ran
off all the legal users. There used to be all sorts of AM and FM
business communications between CB and ten Meters. The highest
CB channel here is 27.405 so all that space between there and 28
mhz was full of pagers and two-way radios. The illegals with
their high power and disregard for anybody else probably made
those channels useless.

	Actually, if it was just talking, I probably wouldn't
have stayed interested in amateur radio but I love the technical
challenge and I like to build the occasional box to solve this
or that problem. One also meets a lot of really smart people so
there is always something new to learn.

	I first got my General Class license in October of 1969
but did not get on the air until March of 1970 on ten meters. We
were still close to the Solar peak so there was a lot of great
F2 skip in the Winter and E skip in Summer. I then upgraded to
Advanced in June or July of 1976 and then Extra in April of
1988.

	Extra is as far as one can go but it is humbling because
by then, you realize how much you don't know so only the arrogant
boast. At that time, one still had to do the 20 Word Morse
requirement. I had dug out a 13-WPM code practice tape and was
playing it at twice the correct speed and realized that I could
copy a lot of it. I was also taking a AC circuits theory class
at OSU and the instructor said he would raise anybody's grade by
1 letter if they got a General Class license. The only thing I
could do was upgrade to Extra since I had already done General
and Advanced.

	I passed the Morse the first time but failed the theory.
If one passed either one, one did get a certificate that could
be presented at the next exam and I believe I almost thought
about storing the CW certificate in a safe deposit box. Well,
not really, but I guarded it with my life and after getting a
more current study manual, I passed the theory in April of 1988.

	If I hadn't had the grade motivation, I probably would
have waited much later if at all.

	The exam in April of 1988 was in Tulsa which is about 60
miles away and our class instructor was in one of 2 cars our
group took. It was down-right fun to get on the VHF radio we had
and talk to my instructor in the other car to say that I finally
passed.

	Years later, there was a guy who was big in to astronomy
where I worked. He was interested in ham radio and went from
absolutely nothing to Extra in one sitting. To do that, you must
complete each exam element before you can go to the next. Now
that was impressive.


Gordon Smith writes:
> Hi Martin
> 
> Ah, CB, the good old days!
> 
> Well, here in the UK citizens band radio wasn't legalised until November 
> 1981, believe it or not.  And even then, the government opted for an 
> unworkable unenforceable license system where one would simply go to the 
> local post office, fill out a form and pay one's 10 Pounds for a license.
> 
> Then one would usually high-tail it down to the local CB emporium and 
> grab one's self one of the latest all singing all dancing radios and, of 
> course, a "cool antenna" to go with it.
> 
> The range of ineffective, inefficient antennaiu which were marketed back 
> in those days you simply wouldn't believe.
> 
> UK CB radio is located just below the amateur 10 meter band, at the very 
> top end of 27 MHZ finishing at 27.98125 MHZ, decrementing in 10 KHZ steps 
> from that point until the 40 channels were used.
> 
> Because the signals were all FM, rather than AM as they were in the 
> states and Europe, there were a lot of problems with adjacent signal 
> interference (crudely referred too as "Bleed-over) and this resulted in 
> many an argument which I personally witnessed and, to my shame, 
> participated in.
> 
> It was and, I think, still is the law that no radio transmitter in that 
> band shall exceed a maximum of 4 Watts RF output.  But, of course, there 
> were no such rules governing the usage and design of antennae, with the 
> exception that no antenna was to be mounted external to a building at a 
> height in excess of 10 meters above the ground.  (10 meters being, of 
> course, almost a full wavelength) which, I think, was significant in 
> their thinking.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed May 26 02:59:33 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:59:33 -0500
Subject: Personal Radio Communications 
Message-ID: <201005260159.o4Q1xXwZ036309@x.it.okstate.edu>

This came to me privately for some reason but, as the thread belongs here for all to comment on if they wish, I have re-directed it.


Martin McCormick Wrote:

	It sounds like the deviation on the UK CB sets is
probably less than 5 KHZ if the channels are 10 KHZ apart.
Either that or one is guaranteed serious interference if 2
conversations are on adjacent channels. I can imagine this being
a real problem in any large town as people could accidentally
cause this situation as they drove around or one could get
clobbered if they and whoever they were talking to got quiet for
awhile. Somebody else could innocently start up on one channel
above or below and I bet the excursions of the FM signal would
shred reception of weak signals.

	Did the British CB's have subaudible tones or CTCSS as
it is technically known? Those little UHF portables in the
Family Radio Service do have that and the channels are 25 KHZ
apart.

	One other observation on CB. In the Americas, there is a
huge amount of purely illegal single sideband activity just
below ten meters. It is fair to say that they pretty much ran
off all the legal users. There used to be all sorts of AM and FM
business communications between CB and ten Meters. The highest
CB channel here is 27.405 so all that space between there and 28
mhz was full of pagers and two-way radios. The illegals with
their high power and disregard for anybody else probably made
those channels useless.

	Actually, if it was just talking, I probably wouldn't
have stayed interested in amateur radio but I love the technical
challenge and I like to build the occasional box to solve this
or that problem. One also meets a lot of really smart people so
there is always something new to learn.

	I first got my General Class license in October of 1969
but did not get on the air until March of 1970 on ten meters. We
were still close to the Solar peak so there was a lot of great
F2 skip in the Winter and E skip in Summer. I then upgraded to
Advanced in June or July of 1976 and then Extra in April of
1988.

	Extra is as far as one can go but it is humbling because
by then, you realize how much you don't know so only the arrogant
boast. At that time, one still had to do the 20 Word Morse
requirement. I had dug out a 13-WPM code practice tape and was
playing it at twice the correct speed and realized that I could
copy a lot of it. I was also taking a AC circuits theory class
at OSU and the instructor said he would raise anybody's grade by
1 letter if they got a General Class license. The only thing I
could do was upgrade to Extra since I had already done General
and Advanced.

	I passed the Morse the first time but failed the theory.
If one passed either one, one did get a certificate that could
be presented at the next exam and I believe I almost thought
about storing the CW certificate in a safe deposit box. Well,
not really, but I guarded it with my life and after getting a
more current study manual, I passed the theory in April of 1988.

	If I hadn't had the grade motivation, I probably would
have waited much later if at all.

	The exam in April of 1988 was in Tulsa which is about 60
miles away and our class instructor was in one of 2 cars our
group took. It was down-right fun to get on the VHF radio we had
and talk to my instructor in the other car to say that I finally
passed.

	Years later, there was a guy who was big in to astronomy
where I worked. He was interested in ham radio and went from
absolutely nothing to Extra in one sitting. To do that, you must
complete each exam element before you can go to the next. Now
that was impressive.


Gordon Smith writes:
> Hi Martin
> 
> Ah, CB, the good old days!
> 
> Well, here in the UK citizens band radio wasn't legalised until November 
> 1981, believe it or not.  And even then, the government opted for an 
> unworkable unenforceable license system where one would simply go to the 
> local post office, fill out a form and pay one's 10 Pounds for a license.
> 
> Then one would usually high-tail it down to the local CB emporium and 
> grab one's self one of the latest all singing all dancing radios and, of 
> course, a "cool antenna" to go with it.
> 
> The range of ineffective, inefficient antennaiu which were marketed back 
> in those days you simply wouldn't believe.
> 
> UK CB radio is located just below the amateur 10 meter band, at the very 
> top end of 27 MHZ finishing at 27.98125 MHZ, decrementing in 10 KHZ steps 
> from that point until the 40 channels were used.
> 
> Because the signals were all FM, rather than AM as they were in the 
> states and Europe, there were a lot of problems with adjacent signal 
> interference (crudely referred too as "Bleed-over) and this resulted in 
> many an argument which I personally witnessed and, to my shame, 
> participated in.
> 
> It was and, I think, still is the law that no radio transmitter in that 
> band shall exceed a maximum of 4 Watts RF output.  But, of course, there 
> were no such rules governing the usage and design of antennae, with the 
> exception that no antenna was to be mounted external to a building at a 
> height in excess of 10 meters above the ground.  (10 meters being, of 
> course, almost a full wavelength) which, I think, was significant in 
> their thinking.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu May 27 16:09:17 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:09:17 +1000
Subject: Human Ware take us for a bunch of fools
Message-ID: <A9C43108-3907-4ABA-9632-50821D4AF2B0@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I received a message from Human Ware yesterday regarding the Victor Reader Stream and the 3.2 software upgrade.  If I had received this message a year or so ago then I would have been very excited but now? Well I have other devices here which do exactly what the Stream will do and I don't have to pay any extra for software kits and the like, Human Ware have a damn cheek! to charge top price for the Stream and yet to demand more money for fixes and functions which should have been put in place ages ago.

Having said that, the Victor Reader Stream is an impressive little Daisy Player and its a shame its speaker lets it down.

Read on!

> 
>  	 	 
>  	
> 
> Victor Reader Stream:  New version, New companion, New SoftPak!
> 
> Longueuil, May 26, 2010 -- Count them, not 1, not 2, but 3 important announcements for our Stream customers.
> 
> Firstly, HumanWare is pleased to announce a Version 3.2 Stream free software upgrade with support for Russian, Belgian Dutch and Brazilian Portuguese languages. Imagine the popularity of the Stream now extends worldwide from Australia and New Zealand, to the tropics of Brazil, to North America, more than a dozen countries in Europe and now even to the streets of Moscow. Stream supports 14 languages with more to come!
> 
> Secondly, HumanWare is also announcing a new version 3.2 of the Companion Software that is compatible with both the Stream and ClassMate. This newly updated free software now provides a backup and restores SD card features. Other new features include transfer of DOC and PDF files. For your convenience, Companion now converts MS Word DOC files to HTML and PDF to text files so you can access them on your Stream.
> 
> Finally, version 3.2 has hidden treasures that you should know about. In addition to new languages and general maintenance, we now have the underlying framework to support our long anticipated SoftPak. The Stream SoftPak is optional software that provides five features for which we have had many requests: support of the EPUB book format, ability to play Audible's Enhanced Audio books, playback of MP4 audio including iTunes, Support for MS Word DOCX and ability to record in MP3 or Wav file formats.
> 
> We are offering the version 3.2 Stream and Companion upgrades at no charge. For more information and to download visit www.humanware.com/stream_software. After installing 3.2 you may take advantage of the optional software features by purchasing the SoftPak for a nominal charge of $49. 
> 
> For more information about the Stream SoftPak visit www.humanware.com/softpak. You may also purchase SoftPak online from that page or by calling our customer service team toll free at 1-800-722-3393.
> 
> About HumanWare
> 
> HumanWare (www.humanware.com ) is the global leader in assistive technologies for the print disabled. HumanWare provides products to people who are blind or have low vision and students with learning disabilities. HumanWare offers a collection of innovative products, including BrailleNote, the leading productivity device for the blind in education, business and for personal use; the Victor Reader product line, the world's leading digital audiobook players; the SmartView family of handheld and desktop electronic magnifiers; and myReader2, HumanWare's unique "auto-reader". For more information about HumanWare, visit www.humanware.com .
> 
>   
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu May 27 18:29:58 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 18:29:58 +0100
Subject: Human Ware take us for a bunch of fools
In-Reply-To: <A9C43108-3907-4ABA-9632-50821D4AF2B0@internode.on.net>
References: <A9C43108-3907-4ABA-9632-50821D4AF2B0@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <3F6BCBE6-D904-4F9E-8239-157B197CDA45@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I can sum up my reaction to their so-called new features in just two words:  Big Deal!

And you're right, its speaker does indeed let it down.  That is exactly why we opted not to buy one of those things.  As for the ability to play MP4, Audible and ePub, wow, I'm so excited I can't contain my whoops of joy!

This really does sound like Humanware's attempt to catch up with the rest because they know they're being left behind.

I am not sure whether the Plaxtalk will handle any audio file format other than MP3, I'm going to have to test that.  And yes, I don't deny that would be a very big plus.  But I certainly wouldn't rush out and buy a stream just for that!  I'd far rather use an iPhone or even an iPod Touch.

The Touch's speaker, that having been said, is much much much worse than even the VRS speaker is.  But given the size of the device and the fact that really speaking it's designed for use with headphones or an external source, that's not really too much to moan about.

The iPhone's speaker, on the other hand, is absolutely amazing, given the size of that thing.  In fact, for speech it's more than passable and for music it isn't too bad.

The Plextalk portable series have incredible speakers given that they're mono.  Dane has stated on this and other lists before now that the quality is excellent.  I agree!

I think I've told the list that I am preparing a podcast demo of the PTR2 if anybody is interested.  The demo will walk the listener from beginning most basic basic of basic functions, describe the keypad layout, going all the way up to the most advanced advanced recording and editing features.

I'll advise the list when it's ready and the rest is up to you.  But again, the VRS, big deal!  And I agree about charging users although that $49 may be something to do with licensed components within the software, I don't know.  But you know, it's no worse than GW Micro, Freedom Scientifically Fictitious or Dolphin Computer Access charging their customers extortionate amounts of money for product upgrades.

Gordon

On 27 May 2010, at 16:09, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi!

I received a message from Human Ware yesterday regarding the Victor Reader Stream and the 3.2 software upgrade.  If I had received this message a year or so ago then I would have been very excited but now? Well I have other devices here which do exactly what the Stream will do and I don't have to pay any extra for software kits and the like, Human Ware have a damn cheek! to charge top price for the Stream and yet to demand more money for fixes and functions which should have been put in place ages ago.

Having said that, the Victor Reader Stream is an impressive little Daisy Player and its a shame its speaker lets it down.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu May 27 20:29:21 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:29:21 -0500
Subject: Human Ware take us for a bunch of fools 
Message-ID: <201005271929.o4RJTLQo051833@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Three people in my working group now have Iphones and I
have noticed that the sound is good for a physically small
device. The laws of physics dictate much of how small devices
sound so it does very well for its size. Is the screen, by
chance, the speaker? it is ever so slightly flexible since it
has to be in order for the touch screen to work. This would also
be true for the Ipad.

	I have never owned any Humanwear products and I do not
wish them any ill will, but their problem is shared by a number
of other access technology firms. It is called the economy of
scale and kills off a lot of innovative ideas. The basic idea is
that development costs are always high. If someone plans to sell
fifty-million machines, the development costs can be divided
across fifty-million byers. If only 5,000 people buy this
device, then the development costs are 1,000 times higher for
each bier.

	Even if it is something intangible like software, the
problem is the same. The programmers and testers have to eat.

	This basically means that nitch companies such as those
who sell assistive technology must charge high prices and Nickel
and Dime everybody to death. While it possible that some
companies may be a bit greedy, I suspect that market forces
limit this to some extent. It certainly is frustrating when
off-the-shelf technology won't work because it usually is so
much more affordable to the average person.

	This is why Apple's Voiceover technology is so welcome.
We all pay for it but it is amortized over the entire population
rather than like some other access technology I know of that is
an afterthought and always one update patch away from breaking.
Of course, they will happily sell you the next bug fix. Nothing
like job security.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> I can sum up my reaction to their so-called new features in just two 
> words:  Big Deal!

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu May 27 22:52:28 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:52:28 +0100
Subject: Human Ware take us for a bunch of fools 
In-Reply-To: <201005271929.o4RJTLQo051833@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201005271929.o4RJTLQo051833@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <CF0FDD0C-CA0E-4305-9656-6558EF57F3F4@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin\

No.  The speaker in the iPhone is on the bottom corner next to the dock connector.  It's absolutely tiny, which makes this all the more amazing.

Apple has taken full advantage of the resonances of the case, and I think that's what gives it its rich sound.

If only they could have made the iPod Touch just a little bit larger, it too might have had a decent speaker.  As it is, it's utterly dreadful.

Gordon

On 27 May 2010, at 20:29, Martin McCormick wrote:

	Three people in my working group now have Iphones and I
have noticed that the sound is good for a physically small
device. The laws of physics dictate much of how small devices
sound so it does very well for its size. Is the screen, by
chance, the speaker? it is ever so slightly flexible since it
has to be in order for the touch screen to work. This would also
be true for the Ipad.

	I have never owned any Humanwear products and I do not
wish them any ill will, but their problem is shared by a number
of other access technology firms. It is called the economy of
scale and kills off a lot of innovative ideas. The basic idea is
that development costs are always high. If someone plans to sell
fifty-million machines, the development costs can be divided
across fifty-million byers. If only 5,000 people buy this
device, then the development costs are 1,000 times higher for
each bier.

	Even if it is something intangible like software, the
problem is the same. The programmers and testers have to eat.

	This basically means that nitch companies such as those
who sell assistive technology must charge high prices and Nickel
and Dime everybody to death. While it possible that some
companies may be a bit greedy, I suspect that market forces
limit this to some extent. It certainly is frustrating when
off-the-shelf technology won't work because it usually is so
much more affordable to the average person.

	This is why Apple's Voiceover technology is so welcome.
We all pay for it but it is amortized over the entire population
rather than like some other access technology I know of that is
an afterthought and always one update patch away from breaking.
Of course, they will happily sell you the next bug fix. Nothing
like job security.

Martin McCormick

Gordon Smith writes:
> I can sum up my reaction to their so-called new features in just two 
> words:  Big Deal!
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat May 29 21:12:55 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:12:55 +0100
Subject: Television License Fee Collection
In-Reply-To: <BCB001F9-A442-4C34-B134-7F07FAF81672@internode.on.net>
References: <201005191257.o4JCvAUQ085872@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<C5AF5B92-21BC-4B60-8E08-596539773E92@internode.on.net>
	<773C9CC7-F3DE-4BAA-AB35-9AF7684A5B67@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BCB001F9-A442-4C34-B134-7F07FAF81672@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <12E6C2A5-403B-40C7-B9A9-6E59879DC5D7@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Going back to the original subject of this message, TV licenses.  The UK conservative & coalition government installed through the back door following the UK public's indecision which resulted in a hung parliament for the first time since 1931, is issuing an emergency budget statement on 22 June.

In that statement, along with other drastic public spending cuts, is expected to be the withdrawal of the pension's right to a free license for those over the age of 2
75, and also possibly the abolition, in full or in part, of the blind person's discount.  That's on top of the anticipated 4% raise in the license fee itself which goes to the BBC.

All of these measures are designed to raise revenue but, of course, they hit the most vulnerable members of our society the hardest.  That isn't a topic for discussion on this forum ... but is being discussed on our other forum currently.  Not just UK issues, of course, those of other countries also.

But again to get back to the point in question.  Many people each year are finding they simply cannot afford a television license and so, like it or not, they're being deprived of the right to a fundamental part of everyday life.  They must dispose of their TV sets lest they're accused of flouting the law and subject to a heavy fine.

Diversifying from the subject of license fees a little.  There are now problems occurring with the mass disposal of the old analog TV sets, video recorders and the first generation of DVD recorders; all of which will be virtually obsolete by the year 2012 nationally and, in some parts of the UK, even as early as later this year.

The transition to digital TV is already well underway, and several analogue transmitters have already been shut down.  The operators of those which remain are performing little or no maintenance on them because such work is expensive, and the remaining life cycle of the transmitters is extremely short anyway.

So it won't surprise me if, even in those areas whose official switch-off isn't until the middle of 2012, the viewers lose signal well before that time on the analogue platform.  In effect, therefore, the switch-over will take place well before the official date if the transmitter happens to break down.

A couple of years ago, the Bilsdale transmitter in North Yorkshire (which serves our own TV area) suffered a huge lightning strike.  It put the analogue transmitters of all of the TV networks out of commission for more than a week, and an interesting battle of wills ensued.

The operators of the transmitters, (at that time, NTL), rebutted the government's demand that they spent the money to service the transmitters and restore service to the over 2 million homes affected.  In view of the imminent switch-over and the vast cost of replacing the entire transmitter and antennae assemblies, all of which were completely destroyed by the lightning strike and resultant fire, the cost to the operators was substantial.  Their insurers refused, just as they do with domestic claims of that nature, to service the cost because it was, as they call it, and "act of god".

NTL did eventually agree to replace the damaged hardware as they were at the time subservient to the regulations and contractual obligations to which they signed up upon their initial purchase of the transmitter network.  Governmental will won the day in the end and NTL had to foot the hefty bill.  Shortly after that event, (although I'm not suggesting these two incidents were related), NTL got out of the broadcast transmission market in the UK, selling their network to a new company.

Actually, on the whole, that market is extremely lucrative for the owners of the transmitters.  Every radio and television network has to hire the use of the transmitters and they only have one option.  Thus, it is a closed market; so they set the market rates.

So really it seems churlish to me that the then operators refused to service the cost.  Given the vast profit these companies make, one would think it would be a worthwhile investment.

Gordon

On 20 May 2010, at 00:41, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Yep you're right about the replacement and you're also right! this chap doesn't even qualify for a mention on any forum <smile>.



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 31 16:49:41 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:49:41 +0100
Subject: iTunes Curiosity
In-Reply-To: <2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
References: <99A4D4C1-285F-48E5-8A62-E5D354CF117E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<12B5B0BB-9F31-46F9-957F-EB92D8F27930@internode.on.net>
	<F3CFCC72-322E-4953-B91E-319EABF6334D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>

For the benefit of those not subscribed to our other list, this thread started life on Mac-Access.

Hello Dane

On 31 May 2010, at 16:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Yes that technology is widely used over here, actually Vision australia - one of our biggest blindness agencies - are talking about doing the same thing with books on CD so they can cut costs, all they have to do is send the CD out in a special sealed package which are widely available as you've noted rather than spend extra money on special mailers etc 

The RNIB already use disposable disks but they don't expire. Why they do this, I have absolutely no idea.

For instance, Gordon gets CDs from their talking book library and the CDs come in a paper CD envelope with a window.

The address is printed on the front of the CD and, when he returns them, he just turns the disk around so that the shiny side faces the window.

The RNIB return address printed on the reverse side of the envelope is then the only visible address; so the envelope is returned to them and they dispose of the media.

Talk about a wast of money! Why on earth they do it that way is beyond me. They could just use disposable disks and have you return the envelope empty, or use time-expiring disks as we have discussed.

But the RNIB moves in mysterious ways it would seem, and they opted for the current system and seem unwilling to change.

When they get the CDs back from the subscriber, each CD is bar-code scanned and that's how they know where it came from. But I'll never understand why they print your address on the disk itself; what a security compromise! What happens to those CDs when they're disposed of I don't know. But that is how identity theft begins; people acquiring other people's personal data such as names and addresses.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon May 31 16:55:22 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 01:55:22 +1000
Subject: iTunes Curiosity
In-Reply-To: <58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <99A4D4C1-285F-48E5-8A62-E5D354CF117E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<12B5B0BB-9F31-46F9-957F-EB92D8F27930@internode.on.net>
	<F3CFCC72-322E-4953-B91E-319EABF6334D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
	<58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <845DC45B-29F8-4CAA-B8F2-624053A7AF11@internode.on.net>

That's not allowed here, the even Now the disc is sent out in a mailer with a card in it, your address is printed on the card.  To send the mailer with the disc back you remove the card and the Vision Australia address is visible through the mailer window, you destroy the card obviously.

Vision Australia use a thermal printer to print the cards on special thermal paper which is widely available, fax machines use it.  The paper doesn't last long but I don't think ink of any sort is used in the printing process.


On 01/06/2010, at 1:49 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> For the benefit of those not subscribed to our other list, this thread started life on Mac-Access.
> 
> Hello Dane
> 
> On 31 May 2010, at 16:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Yes that technology is widely used over here, actually Vision australia - one of our biggest blindness agencies - are talking about doing the same thing with books on CD so they can cut costs, all they have to do is send the CD out in a special sealed package which are widely available as you've noted rather than spend extra money on special mailers etc 
> 
> The RNIB already use disposable disks but they don't expire. Why they do this, I have absolutely no idea.
> 
> For instance, Gordon gets CDs from their talking book library and the CDs come in a paper CD envelope with a window.
> 
> The address is printed on the front of the CD and, when he returns them, he just turns the disk around so that the shiny side faces the window.
> 
> The RNIB return address printed on the reverse side of the envelope is then the only visible address; so the envelope is returned to them and they dispose of the media.
> 
> Talk about a wast of money! Why on earth they do it that way is beyond me. They could just use disposable disks and have you return the envelope empty, or use time-expiring disks as we have discussed.
> 
> But the RNIB moves in mysterious ways it would seem, and they opted for the current system and seem unwilling to change.
> 
> When they get the CDs back from the subscriber, each CD is bar-code scanned and that's how they know where it came from. But I'll never understand why they print your address on the disk itself; what a security compromise! What happens to those CDs when they're disposed of I don't know. But that is how identity theft begins; people acquiring other people's personal data such as names and addresses.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 31 18:27:00 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:27:00 +0100
Subject: iTunes Curiosity
In-Reply-To: <845DC45B-29F8-4CAA-B8F2-624053A7AF11@internode.on.net>
References: <99A4D4C1-285F-48E5-8A62-E5D354CF117E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<12B5B0BB-9F31-46F9-957F-EB92D8F27930@internode.on.net>
	<F3CFCC72-322E-4953-B91E-319EABF6334D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
	<58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<845DC45B-29F8-4CAA-B8F2-624053A7AF11@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <C340793C-D048-4DAA-9E8C-5BF6BC993DCB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

I am very confused; what's not allowed there?

Lynne

On 31 May 2010, at 16:55, Dane Trethowan wrote:

That's not allowed here, the even Now the disc is sent out in a mailer with a card in it, your address is printed on the card.  To send the mailer with the disc back you remove the card and the Vision Australia address is visible through the mailer window, you destroy the card obviously.

Vision Australia use a thermal printer to print the cards on special thermal paper which is widely available, fax machines use it.  The paper doesn't last long but I don't think ink of any sort is used in the printing process.


On 01/06/2010, at 1:49 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> For the benefit of those not subscribed to our other list, this thread started life on Mac-Access.
> 
> Hello Dane
> 
> On 31 May 2010, at 16:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Yes that technology is widely used over here, actually Vision australia - one of our biggest blindness agencies - are talking about doing the same thing with books on CD so they can cut costs, all they have to do is send the CD out in a special sealed package which are widely available as you've noted rather than spend extra money on special mailers etc 
> 
> The RNIB already use disposable disks but they don't expire. Why they do this, I have absolutely no idea.
> 
> For instance, Gordon gets CDs from their talking book library and the CDs come in a paper CD envelope with a window.
> 
> The address is printed on the front of the CD and, when he returns them, he just turns the disk around so that the shiny side faces the window.
> 
> The RNIB return address printed on the reverse side of the envelope is then the only visible address; so the envelope is returned to them and they dispose of the media.
> 
> Talk about a wast of money! Why on earth they do it that way is beyond me. They could just use disposable disks and have you return the envelope empty, or use time-expiring disks as we have discussed.
> 
> But the RNIB moves in mysterious ways it would seem, and they opted for the current system and seem unwilling to change.
> 
> When they get the CDs back from the subscriber, each CD is bar-code scanned and that's how they know where it came from. But I'll never understand why they print your address on the disk itself; what a security compromise! What happens to those CDs when they're disposed of I don't know. But that is how identity theft begins; people acquiring other people's personal data such as names and addresses.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon May 31 18:45:23 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 03:45:23 +1000
Subject: Disposable media and so on
In-Reply-To: <C340793C-D048-4DAA-9E8C-5BF6BC993DCB@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <99A4D4C1-285F-48E5-8A62-E5D354CF117E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<12B5B0BB-9F31-46F9-957F-EB92D8F27930@internode.on.net>
	<F3CFCC72-322E-4953-B91E-319EABF6334D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
	<58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<845DC45B-29F8-4CAA-B8F2-624053A7AF11@internode.on.net>
	<C340793C-D048-4DAA-9E8C-5BF6BC993DCB@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <81B661FB-55DC-4823-9E1A-731FB2D49A43@internode.on.net>

The printing of an address on a CD as you described but I did think my message would have made that clear, seems clear enough to me reading it back <smile>


On 01/06/2010, at 3:27 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> I am very confused; what's not allowed there?
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 31 May 2010, at 16:55, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> That's not allowed here, the even Now the disc is sent out in a mailer with a card in it, your address is printed on the card.  To send the mailer with the disc back you remove the card and the Vision Australia address is visible through the mailer window, you destroy the card obviously.
> 
> Vision Australia use a thermal printer to print the cards on special thermal paper which is widely available, fax machines use it.  The paper doesn't last long but I don't think ink of any sort is used in the printing process.
> 
> 
> On 01/06/2010, at 1:49 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> For the benefit of those not subscribed to our other list, this thread started life on Mac-Access.
>> 
>> Hello Dane
>> 
>> On 31 May 2010, at 16:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>> ? Yes that technology is widely used over here, actually Vision australia - one of our biggest blindness agencies - are talking about doing the same thing with books on CD so they can cut costs, all they have to do is send the CD out in a special sealed package which are widely available as you've noted rather than spend extra money on special mailers etc 
>> 
>> The RNIB already use disposable disks but they don't expire. Why they do this, I have absolutely no idea.
>> 
>> For instance, Gordon gets CDs from their talking book library and the CDs come in a paper CD envelope with a window.
>> 
>> The address is printed on the front of the CD and, when he returns them, he just turns the disk around so that the shiny side faces the window.
>> 
>> The RNIB return address printed on the reverse side of the envelope is then the only visible address; so the envelope is returned to them and they dispose of the media.
>> 
>> Talk about a wast of money! Why on earth they do it that way is beyond me. They could just use disposable disks and have you return the envelope empty, or use time-expiring disks as we have discussed.
>> 
>> But the RNIB moves in mysterious ways it would seem, and they opted for the current system and seem unwilling to change.
>> 
>> When they get the CDs back from the subscriber, each CD is bar-code scanned and that's how they know where it came from. But I'll never understand why they print your address on the disk itself; what a security compromise! What happens to those CDs when they're disposed of I don't know. But that is how identity theft begins; people acquiring other people's personal data such as names and addresses.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon May 31 19:30:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:30:51 +0100
Subject: Disposable media and so on
In-Reply-To: <81B661FB-55DC-4823-9E1A-731FB2D49A43@internode.on.net>
References: <99A4D4C1-285F-48E5-8A62-E5D354CF117E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<12B5B0BB-9F31-46F9-957F-EB92D8F27930@internode.on.net>
	<F3CFCC72-322E-4953-B91E-319EABF6334D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2C22A143-006A-44DC-9043-B4C8624FBAEC@internode.on.net>
	<58D2CE3F-55A4-414B-9409-0C0ED5513BAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<845DC45B-29F8-4CAA-B8F2-624053A7AF11@internode.on.net>
	<C340793C-D048-4DAA-9E8C-5BF6BC993DCB@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<81B661FB-55DC-4823-9E1A-731FB2D49A43@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <F1C9A1EA-093D-4D42-9998-798927B80989@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 31 May 2010, at 18:45, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? The printing of an address on a CD as you described but I did think my message would have made that clear, seems clear enough to me reading it back <smile>

Of course it does; you wrote it! :-)

Over here you can print the address on anything, as long as it is legible. As long as you meet any appropriate postage costs and don't start sending offensive mail, letter-bombs and that kind of thing. But I'm puzzled as to why it wouldn't be allowed.

We often get junk mail DVDs where the address is printed on the DVD in exactly the same way. The advertisers just ask you to complete an enclosed form or whatever is appropriate. We get these kind of ads for holidays, new cars, all sorts of things.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Jun  1 18:40:47 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 03:40:47 +1000
Subject: A Thunderbird Email question
Message-ID: <990797E9-9C8F-409B-B2EB-CFC7D7648295@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I'm reinstalling Thunderbird onto another system but what I knew has escaped my memory <smile>, can someone tell me how you select what email protocol you use for an account? That is how do you select Pop, Impa etc.

Thanks



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Jun  2 21:37:11 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:37:11 +0100
Subject: Plextalk PTR2 Podcast and written review
Message-ID: <154B49D1-F07B-46BF-B2AC-B29019887919@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

If anybody is interested, I have started work on the podcast and a comprehensive written review of the PTR2, (including all technical specifications), and I'll be making the review available shortly.

The podcast is already partially done and available from either Gordon's Playroom itself, located at http://podcast.gordon-smith.me.uk or if you just want the audio, you can get it via iTunes or any other Podcast receiver, such as Juice, the cross-platform receiver.

The podcast is available in the iTunes Store, just do do a search for Gordon's Playroom and you'll find it.

To use another podcast receiver, use this URL:
http://podcast.gordon-smith.me.uk/RSS/Gordons_Playroom.xml
There are currently only 2 episodes up ... describing the attributes of the machine and the control layout, plus a very brief walk-through of what you'd do as soon as you remove the PTR2 from its despatch carton.

I'm now working on the first real usage episode and hope to have that one up tomorrow.  But anybody is welcome to subscribe if they feel like doing so.

I'm quite pleased with the RSS interface I've built.  It also allows you to subscribe via Email.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Jun  2 23:28:44 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:28:44 +0100
Subject: PTR2 Review Is Up
Message-ID: <73744747-0D3E-45C3-A222-F143B438801C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

The written review of the Plextalk PTR2 is now up.  Well, I'm calling it a review; but actually it isn't because it doesn't relate any personal opinions.  I'm saving those for the podcast. :)

But there is a full list of changes since the PTR1 which I have compiled after having the opportunity to compare the 2 machines, (plus a PTX1 and a PTP1) side-by-side.

I have also compiled a very comprehensive list of technical specifications so that anybody interested in acquiring this machine can know exactly what it is and isn't capable of doing.

The review can be located here:
http://www.gordon-smith.me.uk/RSS/PTR2/01_Overview.html

If it helps one person, it was worth my while.

Gordon


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Jun  5 00:01:51 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 09:01:51 +1000
Subject: Billion ADSL Modem Router
Message-ID: <93D26DC8-D20A-425B-B0B7-4808F3EADD5D@internode.on.net>

Hi Everyone!

I just bought myself a new Billion ADSL Modem with a 4 port Internet switch.  Its laid out a little differently from what I'm used to with the Linksys products and I'm still finding my way around the interface which has so many more options to change and configure which leads me to a question about Port Mapping, I assume this function is the same as Port Forwarding on the Linksys.

I want to open port 5060 for VOIP communications so I filled in the necessary fields but I'm puzzled, the Router wants me to fill in values for external port which I've put down from 5060 to 5061 and there's also an edit box for an internal port, what should I set this as?  I've set both TCPIP and UDP to active and I assume this is correct.

A nice touch here I think is the ability to schedule times in which the port is mapped, I've not seen this on a router before.

By the way, just in case anyone' wants to know when replying to this message, my Linksys 3201 VOIP adapter is set to a static protocol of 192.168.1.30


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Jun  5 05:19:50 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 05:19:50 +0100
Subject: Billion ADSL Modem Router
In-Reply-To: <93D26DC8-D20A-425B-B0B7-4808F3EADD5D@internode.on.net>
References: <93D26DC8-D20A-425B-B0B7-4808F3EADD5D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <460E21F4-31EF-4849-A975-2908348D7DF8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

This is called "Port Translation". In other words, the internal port does not have to be the same as the external port.

For instance, you're running a web server. Port 80 is typically used by web browsers for http call. But port 80 on your network is in use by another machine. So, you set the external port to port 80 and the internal port to port 8000. Then, you set your web server to use port 8000 on your internal network. The router translates port 8000 into port 80 allowing external access.

In the case where no translation is necessary, set the values the same for internal and external ports. In your case, port 5060 in both instances.

See I did learn something from Gordon when he showed me how to set this stuff up. :)

Lynne

On 5 Jun 2010, at 00:01, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi Everyone!

I just bought myself a new Billion ADSL Modem with a 4 port Internet switch.  Its laid out a little differently from what I'm used to with the Linksys products and I'm still finding my way around the interface which has so many more options to change and configure which leads me to a question about Port Mapping, I assume this function is the same as Port Forwarding on the Linksys.

I want to open port 5060 for VOIP communications so I filled in the necessary fields but I'm puzzled, the Router wants me to fill in values for external port which I've put down from 5060 to 5061 and there's also an edit box for an internal port, what should I set this as?  I've set both TCPIP and UDP to active and I assume this is correct.

A nice touch here I think is the ability to schedule times in which the port is mapped, I've not seen this on a router before.

By the way, just in case anyone' wants to know when replying to this message, my Linksys 3201 VOIP adapter is set to a static protocol of 192.168.1.30


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12



_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jun  7 11:14:52 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 11:14:52 +0100
Subject: Malware Appears for Windows Mobile
Message-ID: <926F98AA-ED23-41C4-8D78-AAFD6657FABB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Glad I don't use these notetakers which rely on Windows Mobile.  I guess it was only a matter of time.  Visit the below link and do a search, once there, using whatever method your screen-reader or other accessibility aid, (if any) offers.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/06/04/expensive_malware_appears_for_microsofts_windows_mobile.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jun  7 13:01:58 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:01:58 +1000
Subject: Digital Radio facts
Message-ID: <5BD074C3-6B15-4F86-93BD-1C8E9B21522E@internode.on.net>

Hi Everyone!
We?ve discussed digital radio on this list many times so here?s a handy reference for those who want more information on all digital radio formats including DAB, DAB+, DRM and HD/Iboc
Go to the Silicon Chip magazine web site and look up the issues from February 2009 onwards.
These articles are for purchase so you?ll be able to see only parts of them but if you want to get to grips with the subject then I suggest that the purchase of the series would b a handy reference tool, around about $8.00 Australian per issue or if you like what you see in each issue then you may wish to take out a subscription and yep, International subscribers are most welcome.
Cheers!

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jun  7 13:26:07 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:26:07 +0100
Subject: Digital Radio facts
In-Reply-To: <5BD074C3-6B15-4F86-93BD-1C8E9B21522E@internode.on.net>
References: <5BD074C3-6B15-4F86-93BD-1C8E9B21522E@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <EDC6E39D-DDBC-4C40-A482-4E68EC263EC5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Were you paid for that advertisement, <snigger>?

Actually, joking aside, there are other sources which contain some extremely detailed technical information pertaining to DAB, DAB+ and VRM in the public domain.  I'm not sure about the HD/IBOC format but it's pretty likely available if you look hard enough.

Actually I seem to remember that before DAB was implemented here in the UK back in the early 90s, IBOC was tested extensively as well and rejected, for whatever reason.  I could be wrong about that, that's just from memory.

Google is your friend, Google is your helper!  No, I'm not disputing the below.  Just making the point that a little time taken could save you some money.

On 7 Jun 2010, at 13:01, Dane Trethowan wrote:

We?ve discussed digital radio on this list many times so here?s a handy reference for those who want more information on all digital radio formats including DAB, DAB+, DRM and HD/Iboc

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jun  7 13:38:26 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:38:26 +0100
Subject: Malware on Windows Mobile
Message-ID: <401B728B-6D01-48D9-8F77-1AEFEC126897@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Just occurred to me that I'd better qualify what I said earlier about notetakers and Windows Mobile because I'm sure somebody will make the point.

I'm aware that not all notetakers are created equal.  Those which don't incorporate a cellular phone module would obviously not be at risk of this particular problem.  I believe, although I haven't seen one, that some of the newer models of accessibility aids do incorporate cellular connectivity and so, consequently, they may qualify as at risk devices.

Me personally, I'm still glad I didn't opt to go that route.  I almost did at one time, I seriously considered buying a Braille Sense (I think they call them) when I got the Humanware device I now use.

But I opted for Humanware because I concluded that I didn't really want or need a notetaker and it certainly wasn't worth paying out double what we eventually did pay out for a Braille display, just to have the majority of its functions sitting idle.

As it has turned out, I feel vindicated in that decision because everything I do is now Mac-based, and if I need a notetaker, I have portable devices which serve the purpose excellently well.

Anyway, I digress.  I wonder whether anybody on list owns one of these notetakers?  If so, does it have a cellular connection and, if so, have you experienced any of these issues?

I remember the Way-back-when days when Malware like this first appeared for Windows.  At the time most people were using dial-up networking to connect to the Internet and it really did create a storm.

As a parting shot, I have to admit I sometimes wonder whether much of this stuff is caused by people in the industry itself, in order to drum up business.

By that, I mean do they create the problem themselves covertly, in order to sell products to unsuspecting individuals and IT users that will solve the problem which the company itself created.

Call me a cynic if you like, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

Gordon



From support at tft-bbs.com  Thu Jun 10 01:09:38 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:09:38 +0100
Subject: Short Maintenance OUtage
Message-ID: <C796DC32-AC0F-4ABC-A56A-2DBA1503B437@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

Owing to the need to perform a maintenance update on our server software, we are going to have to take the email server down for a short period of time. We do not anticipate any lengthy delays and expect everything to be back to normal after about 5 minutes.

We plan to do this work at around 00:30 UTC today We apologise for the short notice; but this work needs to be done as it implements an important server update.

Thank you as always for your understanding and rest assured we will be back on line as soon as possible. We only expect the server outage to last for around 5 minutes.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Jun 10 14:05:56 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:05:56 -0500
Subject: Australian School of the Air
Message-ID: <201006101305.o5AD5u36075864@x.it.okstate.edu>

First off, I have never been to Australia so I don't have any
first-hand experience but the concept always interested me as a
no-nonsense solution to a real problem.

	I remember seeing a television special in the sixties
about modern Australia in which they showed pictures of cities
and facilities that were much like ours in the US but one thing
really stood out as totally different than anything we have
here.

	There was a system that allowed children in remote areas
such as the Northern territory to attend school via two-way
radio.

	In one scene, the teacher asked a question and a bunch
of children's' voices plus the heterodyne of many carriers
poured forth from the speaker and the teacher had to call for
order and sort the answers out. I remember thinking that some
things don't change the world over.

	Years later, in Graduate School, I had to do a small
report for one of my classes about distance education in other
countries so I looked in to the School of the Air again. By that
time, it was 1976 or 1977 and the SOA's were still going strong.

	Something made me think of them recently so I got on
Google and typed in Australia + "Royal Flying Doctor" + School
of the air and immediately went to an article about those
schools. I imagined that the HF radios had given way to
satellite-based computer communication and I hit it right on the
head. The SOA's now use the Optus communications satellite and
kids can teleconference with each other and their teachers and I
am sure the sound and video are perfect.

	The old system was probably fine on some days but Solar
activity, thunder storms and changing signal propagation
throughout the day probably tried everyone's patience.

	The HF transceivers were elegant for their day. The
whole system had originally been set up to serve the Royal
Flying Doctors of Australia. They were the equivalent of being
able to call 911 or 999 if one got in to trouble on a distant
dairy farm or sheep station. The first systems were
pedal-powered transmitters. Someone would sit on something like
an exercise bicycle and pedal like mad to run a small generator
which would power a transmitter. There was no receiver so one
transmitted blind and hoped the signal got out. There was even a
keyboard on the system which mechanically generated Morse
characters when keys were pressed so the sender did not have to
know Morse to generate a message. According to a program on
Radio Australia, a good pedal pusher could get about 25 Watts out
of one of those transmitters.

	By the late 1940's, the one-way pedal-powered
contraptions had been replaced with two-way HF transceivers that
had microphones and speakers for more normal communications.

	It was about that time when an Australian educator had
the idea of the distance education system that would become the
schools of the air. She worked with the Royal Flying Doctor
Service to set up the first system. Fortunately, there is not a
medical emergency most of the time so the schools operated on a
secondary basis. If somebody got kicked by a horse or suffered
some other emergency, class would be suspended until the
situation was resolved.

	If anybody on this list ever went to a School of the Air
or has other comments, we would probably all like to hear them.
Today, distance learning is popular what with computers and the
Internet, but the Schools of the Air were unique as far as I can
tell, and way ahead of their time.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jun 10 14:24:57 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:24:57 +0100
Subject: Australian School of the Air
In-Reply-To: <201006101305.o5AD5u36075864@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006101305.o5AD5u36075864@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <BCDA3026-52B1-43DE-9E63-B40BD32252BA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

I won't quote all of your interesting post, it would bounce I think.  There's a limit on the size of a message to the list. :)

Interesting concept actually because I don't see why politicians and people like that couldn't use teleconference instead of all their expensive trips abroad and luxury hotels and five-course dinners, etc., all at the tax payer's expense.

They also take their partners with them and, sometimes, their children as well.  But hey, I digress.

Yes, it was certainly an innovative idea and whoever came up with that was clearly ahead of their time, as you say.

You can just imagine the heterodynes though, can't you, when all the kids tried to respond at once!  How about using something like Skype for that in the modern era, that would be fun as well.  Whether Skype could handle a conference between about 50 people at once is another matter entirely, of course.

But yes, interesting ideas.

Gordon

On 10 Jun 2010, at 14:05, Martin McCormick wrote:

	There was a system that allowed children in remote areas
such as the Northern territory to attend school via two-way
radio.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Jun 10 14:56:04 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:56:04 -0500
Subject: Australian School of the Air 
Message-ID: <201006101356.o5ADu4xf076392@x.it.okstate.edu>

Very true about polititions trips, etc. Business is already
shifting from travel to teleconferencing. While it is true that
actually being there to meet and greet and catch new cold
viruses that are sometimes good for a whole week of Sick leave
is a time-honored fixture of business travel, more and more
companies are either setting up teleconferences using their own
facilities or are hiring space in convention centers that have
lavish audio visual systems. It is still cheaper and less hassle
than planes, trains and hotels, etc.
Gordon Smith writes:
> Interesting concept actually because I don't see why politicians and 
> people like that couldn't use teleconference instead of all their 
> expensive trips abroad and luxury hotels and five-course dinners, etc., 
> all at the tax payer's expense.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jun 10 15:38:29 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:38:29 +0100
Subject: Australian School of the Air 
In-Reply-To: <201006101356.o5ADu4xf076392@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006101356.o5ADu4xf076392@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <0E8C7ECF-C780-4D0F-AC7B-ACB963DBBABD@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

In the words of the Seekers, "Times They are A-Changing" and the politicians and corporations need to change with them.

Teleconferences are very very secure now, or can be made so.  Bandwidth shouldn't be a problem even for high resolution video.  So there really is no excuse.

But to get back to the original point, it is good that these Australians made a constructive use of the available technologies and, by doing so, ensured that the children received their education which, had things been otherwise, they may not have.

Gordon

On 10 Jun 2010, at 14:56, Martin McCormick wrote:

Very true about polititions trips, etc. Business is already
shifting from travel to teleconferencing. While it is true that
actually being there to meet and greet and catch new cold
viruses that are sometimes good for a whole week of Sick leave
is a time-honored fixture of business travel, more and more
companies are either setting up teleconferences using their own
facilities or are hiring space in convention centers that have
lavish audio visual systems. It is still cheaper and less hassle
than planes, trains and hotels, etc.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Jun 10 16:31:20 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:31:20 -0500
Subject: Australian School of the Air 
Message-ID: <201006101531.o5AFVKXw077297@x.it.okstate.edu>

	There was a song once on Radio Australia about School of
the Air. It went something like, "my school yard is 750 square
miles."  It is written from the viewpoint of a small boy who
lives on a farm and has to go to school via radio. It was what
Radio Australia called "Country Music." We have country music
here but it is called "country and Western." It sounds a lot
different than Australian country music. Another good Australian
country song is the one about the redback spider. I really
laughed the first time I ever heard it.

	Back to technology, I always wondered how the School of
the Air and Flying Doctor Service dealt with those technical
glitches that are a part of radio. Most people are quite
intelligent enough, but I bet the frequencies had to be changed
at times during the day and they must have had some way to
simplify the process so that people who weren't radio savvy
didn't get lost. The frequencies were probably
channelized with numbers or letters and folks were probably told
to maybe go to channel 4 from 8 o'clock to 10 and then go to
channel 7 during the middle of the day, etc.

	The transceivers were probably similar to CB radios or
marine transceivers such as are used in maritime communications.

Gordon Smith writes:
> Hi Martin
> 
> In the words of the Seekers, "Times They are A-Changing" and the 
> politicians and corporations need to change with them.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Jun 11 14:55:20 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:55:20 -0500
Subject: Voiceover on the Iphone
Message-ID: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>

I notice that the Iphone voice in Voiceover is female rather
than the male Alex voice which you hear on the Mac. Both voices
are fine as far as I am concerned, but I have a curious
question. If you buy an Iphone in England, do you get a Brittish
Voiceover?

Martin

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Jun 11 14:59:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:59:03 +1000
Subject: Voiceover on the Iphone
In-Reply-To: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <0D538E8C-B19F-49D7-8B01-254C4361E19F@internode.on.net>

You certainly do along with Australia, you get Australian Karen.  Actually these aren't Apple voices I think they're Realspeak voices? Someone can correct me on that I'm sure.

Want to hear what the Australian voice or the British voice sounds like? You can do this by changing the Language, can't remember exactly where it is but its somewhere in General Settings.

Speaking of voice, does anyone know if you can control the rate of the voice on Iphone?


On 11/06/2010, at 11:55 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> I notice that the Iphone voice in Voiceover is female rather
> than the male Alex voice which you hear on the Mac. Both voices
> are fine as far as I am concerned, but I have a curious
> question. If you buy an Iphone in England, do you get a Brittish
> Voiceover?
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lomaswilliam at googlemail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:00:44 2010
From: lomaswilliam at googlemail.com (william lomas)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:00:44 +0100
Subject: Voiceover on the Iphone
In-Reply-To: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <065D82D4-5D8F-402C-8493-A026F0633D8C@googlemail.com>

it has all dialects for all supported languages

On Jun 11, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> I notice that the Iphone voice in Voiceover is female rather
> than the male Alex voice which you hear on the Mac. Both voices
> are fine as far as I am concerned, but I have a curious
> question. If you buy an Iphone in England, do you get a Brittish
> Voiceover?
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Jun 11 20:14:41 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:14:41 +0100
Subject: Nokia N82
Message-ID: <059C394B-957B-4A97-BBDB-164739622B15@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

This is just on the off chance, it's probably expecting too much for anybody to know if they don't own one of these things, but I'll give it a go anyway.

How do you set a Nokia N82 back to factory defaults?  Our phone is behaving really stupidly for some reason and I cannot figure out why.  It keeps jumping into the Bluetooth preferences and prompting me to select a device.  When I turn off Bluetooth, it keeps coming up with a dialogue prompting me to turn Bluetooth back on and I cannot get the phone to do anything else.

At the moment my tolerance of these things is quite low as I'm running on a bit of a short fuse for various reasons.  I'm on the point of taking a sledgehammer to the phone, that will solve the problem!

But really I'd like to be able to reset it as Lynne needs it.  But would that zap Talks and everything that's installed?

Gordon


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Jun 12 03:02:53 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 03:02:53 +0100
Subject: Voiceover on the Iphone
In-Reply-To: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006111355.o5BDtKkY088127@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <A82B56E5-06A3-4619-8DFA-C3499E39CF23@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

All iPhones contain all voices. It automatically changes depending on what language you have selected in your system settings.

Lynne

On 11 Jun 2010, at 14:55, Martin McCormick wrote:

I notice that the Iphone voice in Voiceover is female rather
than the male Alex voice which you hear on the Mac. Both voices
are fine as far as I am concerned, but I have a curious
question. If you buy an Iphone in England, do you get a Brittish
Voiceover?

Martin
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Jun 12 19:25:41 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 04:25:41 +1000
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_First_Talking_TV_Now_a_Reality?=
Message-ID: <7481E780-7370-4C9D-A9EB-8A57C252844F@internode.on.net>

Thought some of you may find this interesting, apologies if you've seen it already.

http://www.fredshead.info/2010/06/worlds-first-talking-tv-now-reality.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+FredsHeadCompanion+(Fred's+Head+from+APH)



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Jun 12 20:57:27 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 05:57:27 +1000
Subject: Editing the registry
Message-ID: <CFBFF5BA-BD35-42AE-B71A-E07FB090AF66@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I have a machine running Windows XP and I've encountered some problems some of which are to do with my current Anti Virus Software Eset Nod32 and a previous anti virus software package I was using causing conflicts with the Windows Security centre, obviously what's happened is that the uninstallation process of F-Secure - the previous anti virus/firewall/security suite I was using - didn't uninstall everything so I decided to take a look at the registry with Regedit.exe

As I thought entries for F-Secure are still in the registry large as life and they were easy enough to discover by doing a search but I can't remove them, every time I try pressing the delete key on one of these entries regedit comes up with an unable to remove error, does anyone know how I can get round this?

Just for those who are wondering, I have Rollback installed so I can get the machine up and running should I do something wrong.

Thanks In Advance


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Jun 13 13:23:11 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:23:11 +0100
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_World=92s_First_Talking_TV_Now_a_Reality?=
In-Reply-To: <7481E780-7370-4C9D-A9EB-8A57C252844F@internode.on.net>
References: <7481E780-7370-4C9D-A9EB-8A57C252844F@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <E27623B3-678C-4D09-9F71-B472F1595CA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 12 Jun 2010, at 19:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Thought some of you may find this interesting, apologies if you've seen it already.

I certainly did, and if it is available as a Sky satellite box I'll be getting one for Gordon. Thanks for the notice.

Lynne


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Jun 13 13:25:42 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:25:42 +0100
Subject: Editing the registry
In-Reply-To: <CFBFF5BA-BD35-42AE-B71A-E07FB090AF66@internode.on.net>
References: <CFBFF5BA-BD35-42AE-B71A-E07FB090AF66@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <041B1E90-F41C-4A4C-BC58-6D2A601B963F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Some keys are "locked" if you're using SP3 or later, that's a new undocumented feature add by MS.  Your only option is a reinstall.

On 12 Jun 2010, at 20:57, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Hi!

I have a machine running Windows XP and I've encountered some problems some of which are to do with my current Anti Virus Software Eset Nod32 and a previous anti virus software package I was using causing conflicts with the Windows Security centre, obviously what's happened is that the uninstallation process of F-Secure - the previous anti virus/firewall/security suite I was using - didn't uninstall everything so I decided to take a look at the registry with Regedit.exe

As I thought entries for F-Secure are still in the registry large as life and they were easy enough to discover by doing a search but I can't remove them, every time I try pressing the delete key on one of these entries regedit comes up with an unable to remove error, does anyone know how I can get round this?

Just for those who are wondering, I have Rollback installed so I can get the machine up and running should I do something wrong.

Thanks In Advance


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12



_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From lomaswilliam at googlemail.com  Sun Jun 13 14:10:42 2010
From: lomaswilliam at googlemail.com (william lomas)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:10:42 +0100
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_World=92s_First_Talking_TV_Now_a_Reality?=
In-Reply-To: <E27623B3-678C-4D09-9F71-B472F1595CA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <7481E780-7370-4C9D-A9EB-8A57C252844F@internode.on.net>
	<E27623B3-678C-4D09-9F71-B472F1595CA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BD6D4453-9890-4040-83A2-A4BB81802139@googlemail.com>

I think it is only freeview, or is it like a sky box?
if it is I will get one to 

On Jun 13, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 12 Jun 2010, at 19:25, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Thought some of you may find this interesting, apologies if you've seen it already.
> 
> I certainly did, and if it is available as a Sky satellite box I'll be getting one for Gordon. Thanks for the notice.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jun 14 18:34:06 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:34:06 +1000
Subject: New Microsoft tool helps developers create programs viewable by
	vision-impaired
Message-ID: <B0E00BB9-7D57-4FA6-A278-82B024E0BEA8@internode.on.net>

Make of this what you will, sounds more trouble than its worth but anyway, well at least you know that the Microsoft dollars are going to pay someone even if it means more software and more work for a lot of people <smile>

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/new-microsoft-tool-helps-developers-create-programs-viewable-by-vision-impaired/6530?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+zdnet/microsoft+(ZDNet+All+About+Microsoft)



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jun 14 21:05:37 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:05:37 -0500
Subject: Ipad Fever, So to Speak
Message-ID: <201006142005.o5EK5bw3019958@x.it.okstate.edu>

	The touch screen on the Ipads is apparently hospitable
to microbes. Someone went to an Apple store and swabbed the
screens of several display models and picked up more than a few
samples of the type of bacteria that live on all our hands.

The NPR broadcast "Wait Wait! Don't Tell Me" is a humorous news
quiz in which callers are asked about current events and the
subject of the germy screens came up.

	Their advice to everybody was to look at tablet
computers using Microsoft Windows instead. "Nobody touches
them."

	My wife and I roared with laughter after hearing that
bit of sage advice.

	In all seriousness, Ipads and Iphones probably have no
particular affinity for collecting germs and viruses, but since
they are built to be touched like keyboards and telephones, one
should probably at least sanitize one's hands after using one
which has been used by several others such as a display model.

Martin McCormick

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jun 15 04:35:03 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 04:35:03 +0100
Subject: Ipad Fever, So to Speak
In-Reply-To: <201006142005.o5EK5bw3019958@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006142005.o5EK5bw3019958@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2304E990-8AA1-42E2-BE39-12566C80BE36@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Excellent; this is really funny.  But on a serious note, I guess the best advice one can give is to employ a screen protector.  The other one is, and I guess it's the most basic of basic advice, wash your filthy hands! ;-)

Actually, it's something I do routinely before using my tech equipment ... Braille display in particular.

We always keep a supply of hand swabs which come pre-soaked in disinfectant around the place at all times.  The type they use in hospitals.

On a different though related note, there was a broadcast on the BBC TV network the other night which revealed some startling statistics.

Apparently, and we found this pretty revolting, 4 out of 10 women surveyed for this poll admitted that, after going to the toilet, they don't wash their hands.

2 Out of 10 even admitted to not washing their hands after going to the toilet, and then preparing food.

I can't think of anything more likely to spread germs than that, and I'm glad that it doesn't happen here.  If Lynne were one such person, I'd be filing for divorce, <LOL>.

Gordon


Gordon

On 14 Jun 2010, at 21:05, Martin McCormick wrote:

	The touch screen on the Ipads is apparently hospitable
to microbes. Someone went to an Apple store and swabbed the
screens of several display models and picked up more than a few
samples of the type of bacteria that live on all our hands.

The NPR broadcast "Wait Wait! Don't Tell Me" is a humorous news
quiz in which callers are asked about current events and the
subject of the germy screens came up.

	Their advice to everybody was to look at tablet
computers using Microsoft Windows instead. "Nobody touches
them."

	My wife and I roared with laughter after hearing that
bit of sage advice.

	In all seriousness, Ipads and Iphones probably have no
particular affinity for collecting germs and viruses, but since
they are built to be touched like keyboards and telephones, one
should probably at least sanitize one's hands after using one
which has been used by several others such as a display model.

Martin McCormick
_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Jun 15 15:07:42 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:07:42 -0500
Subject: Ipad Fever, So to Speak 
Message-ID: <201006151407.o5FE7gkW028037@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Absolutely! The survey you mentioned or one like it has
appeared in media here in the United states. There was also a
study done in the UK and possibly here in which posters were
displayed in the hand-washing areas of public toilets
encouraging hygiene. It turned out that men responded to a much
coarser message than did women. A simple picture of a woman
washing her hands was successful in reminding more visitors to
the loo to do so.

	A similar picture in the men's rooms was not effective
but what was effective was a sign that said,

"You can soap it off now or eat it later."

	That sign had no effect other than disgust in the
women's rooms.

	I am not sure what the statistics are here in the United
States, but I believe our hygiene factor is probably very similar
to the UK studies. We range all the way from people who wear
gloves and masks in public to, shall we say, those who are much
less diligent. 

	There have been attempts at technological solutions to
all but force people who work in sensitive areas such as food
service and health care to wash their hands and I am not sure
anything has proved to be the magic bullet.

	I could imagine workers in a restaurant wearing a badge
that contains a transponder which is set one way when one visits
the loo and then will set off some sort of alarm if you try to
leave without washing your hands. When you are the the sink
washing, maybe pressing the soap button would reset the badge so
as to kill the alarm.

	These could probably be made relatively cheaply these
days and most people just need a reminder. We are not talking
about some high-security alarm system that protects money; just
a system to remind people to do the right thing and wash.

Gordon Smith writes:
> Excellent; this is really funny.  But on a serious note, I guess the best 
> advice one can give is to employ a screen protector.  The other one is, 
> and I guess it's the most basic of basic advice, wash your filthy hands! 
> ;-)

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Jun 15 16:35:06 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:35:06 -0500
Subject: Our Greasy Hands
Message-ID: <201006151535.o5FFZ6K8028812@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I really learned what even clean hands can do when I
worked as a repair technician with OSU's Audio Visual center
during the eighties. We fixed lots of projectors of all kinds
from slide projectors up to 16-millimeter sound projectors used
in classrooms and auditoriums. Projectors have what is called a
projection lamp which is a very bright and very hot light source
that shines through a set of lenses plus the film and ultimately
ends up as the picture people see on the screen.

	These lamps are like trying to contain the Sun in a
bottle in that they generate tremendous light and heat in a very
small space.

	They are so hot that movie film melts in about a second
if it should stop still for that long in front of the lamp.

	Because of all that, projection lamps must be kept
immaculately clean of human finger prints. While a finger print
doesn't do much bad to a 100-Watt light bulb, it will ruin a
projector bulb.

	Even a clean finger will leave a trace of skin oil and a
few dead skin cells on surfaces such as glass. Normally, this
doesn't cause much of an issue but if you get that finger print
hot enough, the oil scorches and bakes or burns on to the
glass, becoming a little darker.

	It then absorbs that blazing light from the lamp and
gets even hotter. The melting point of glass is around 1000
degrees Fahrenheit or between 500 and 600 degrees Celsius.

	The glass starts to melt and sag and forms a welt in
some cases or a big bubble in worst cases. Anyway, the bulb is
optically ruined or the bubble may touch the next part of the
light path which is sometimes a thick heat-absorbing lens that
reduces the infrared output of the bulb so that it doesn't cook
the film and parts of the rest of the light path. Anyway you
look at it, it is not good.

	We used to get projectors in all the time where somebody
had handled the bulb and then it melted later. The secret is to
use a proper glass cleaner if you touch the bulb and avoid
touching the glass as much as possible.


	It was really amazing what damage that little spot of
finger oil could do.

	By the way; The melting glass sure showed those germs a
thing or two.

	Not all lamps that need special handling are projector
lamps. Some of the bulbs used in automotive service or the
halogen bulbs used in some room lighting have warnings about
not touching the glass. They do really mean it.

Martin McCormick

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jun 15 17:53:40 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:53:40 +0100
Subject: Ipad Fever, So to Speak 
In-Reply-To: <201006151407.o5FE7gkW028037@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006151407.o5FE7gkW028037@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <8744B6DE-C574-4866-A253-56FE2BDD81CC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Martin; are you a member of Just-Chat? I think this topic should be moved to that list as it no longer has anything to do with technology.

Therefore I am moving it there before I reply to your points.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jun 15 18:09:53 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:09:53 +0100
Subject: Our Greasy Hands
In-Reply-To: <201006151535.o5FFZ6K8028812@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006151535.o5FFZ6K8028812@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <66F94F8B-5BDB-45EF-9567-206578950420@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

I didn't move this message, because it is technology related. :)

On 15 Jun 2010, at 16:35, Martin McCormick wrote:

? 	I really learned what even clean hands can do when I
worked as a repair technician with OSU's Audio Visual center
during the eighties. We fixed lots of projectors of all kinds
from slide projectors up to 16-millimeter sound projectors used
in classrooms and auditoriums. Projectors have what is called a
projection lamp which is a very bright and very hot light source
that shines through a set of lenses plus the film and ultimately
ends up as the picture people see on the screen.

Do they still use that technique? I thought it was all digital now.

? These lamps are like trying to contain the Sun in a
bottle in that they generate tremendous light and heat in a very
small space.

I can imagine.

? They are so hot that movie film melts in about a second
if it should stop still for that long in front of the lamp.

? Because of all that, projection lamps must be kept
immaculately clean of human finger prints. While a finger print
doesn't do much bad to a 100-Watt light bulb, it will ruin a
projector bulb.

? Even a clean finger will leave a trace of skin oil and a
few dead skin cells on surfaces such as glass. Normally, this
doesn't cause much of an issue but if you get that finger print
hot enough, the oil scorches and bakes or burns on to the
glass, becoming a little darker.

If you touch something I don't think you can really avoid leaving a microscopic amount of skin cells on the surface of whatever you touch.

If you look closely at a touch screen after a while of use, you can actually see a very thin film start to form on the screen's surface.

? It then absorbs that blazing light from the lamp and
gets even hotter. The melting point of glass is around 1000
degrees Fahrenheit or between 500 and 600 degrees Celsius.

The glass starts to melt and sag and forms a welt in
some cases or a big bubble in worst cases. Anyway, the bulb is
optically ruined or the bubble may touch the next part of the
light path which is sometimes a thick heat-absorbing lens that
reduces the infrared output of the bulb so that it doesn't cook
the film and parts of the rest of the light path. Anyway you
look at it, it is not good.

	We used to get projectors in all the time where somebody
had handled the bulb and then it melted later. The secret is to
use a proper glass cleaner if you touch the bulb and avoid
touching the glass as much as possible.

I'd have thought there would be some form of shielding to prevent people from handling the bulb.

? It was really amazing what damage that little spot of
finger oil could do.

Yes, I can understand that when one is dealing with such low tolerance equipment.

? By the way; The melting glass sure showed those germs a
thing or two.

I would imagine they didn't like it too much. ;-)

? Not all lamps that need special handling are projector
lamps. Some of the bulbs used in automotive service or the
halogen bulbs used in some room lighting have warnings about
not touching the glass. They do really mean it.

An interesting post Martin, thank you.

Lynne


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Jun 16 18:11:28 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:11:28 +0100
Subject: New Podcast Avaiable
Message-ID: <241889B6-FF50-41E1-A3B3-505D2AF570B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

There's a new podcast available if anybody is interested in it.

It should, by now, have appeared in the iTunes store, but I'm not sure it has.  So I need to investigate that one.

In the meantime if you want to subscribe to it, or if you're interested in contributing any Apple related audio articles to the feed, please feel free.

You don't need to do any HTML work to contribute, just send us a description of what the article is about, (as detailed as you like), and I'll do all the work this end.  We want to make it as simple for people as possible.

All we need is your MP3, M4a or m4b file and your description.

If you're using MP3 I suggest formatting at either 32KB PS, 56kBPS or 64kBPS so that it doesn't take much downloading for subscribers.

Please contact me on gordon at mac-access.net or contact Lynne on lynne at mac-access.net if you'd like to contribute.

To subscribe, please use the following URL:
http://podcast.mac-access.net/RSS/Mac-Access.Net.xml
please note that is case sensitive.

Gordon


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Jun 16 20:28:24 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:28:24 -0500
Subject: Our Greasy Hands 
Message-ID: <201006161928.o5GJSODe011291@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" quotes me and then writes:
>> in classrooms and auditoriums. Projectors have what is called a
>> projection lamp which is a very bright and very hot light source
>> that shines through a set of lenses plus the film and ultimately
>> ends up as the picture people see on the screen.
> 
> Do they still use that technique? I thought it was all digital now.

	It is mostly electronic now, but this was almost 30
years ago. Any films that one might want to show in a classroom
today are more often than not electronic media such as DVD's or
even video tapes of the original films.

	To transfer film stock to electronic media, one needs a
special projector made to interface movie film to television
such as what television stations have.

	It is often-times a standard 16-millimeter film
projector with the projection lamp and all but instead of a
projection lens assembly which throws the picture on a screen
or your nearest wall, there is some optics that reduces the
light level and focuses the picture in to a television camera.

	So, somewhere in time, somebody transferred that
16-millimeter film to a video tape or a computer hard drive.

	Television stations used to have what they called a
"film chain" in their facilities in which they would have a pair
of 35-millimeter slide projectors, a pair of 16-millimeter film
projectors and maybe even at least 1 8-millimeter film
projector.

	The 16-millimeter machines needed to be in a pair so
that multi-reeled movies could be shown on television without a
break between reels. Most reels were 33 minutes long.

	The slide projectors were, once again, standard slide
projectors with appropriate optics stuck in where the lens went
to feed the picture to a camera instead of a screen.

	I actually once had to fix a 16-millimeter projector
that was used to do film transfers and it was no different
than working on a regular projector. We even stuck a lens in to
the opening so that it worked like a normal projector.

	One final thing, however. Sound movie film runs at 24
frames per second. Silent film runs at 18 frames per second. TV
in North America and Japan, mostly, runs at roughly 30 frames
per second. Film projectors have a whirling shutter that
normally shows each frame 3 times or 72 pictures per second.
This reduces flicker.

	If a film is to be shown on TV, a suitable projector
shows one frame 3 times and then the next one 2 times if my
memory serves me right. Believe it or not, it all comes out
right so there is no glitch.

	In the UK and many other parts of the world, you use a
frame-rate of 25 frames per second. Film chains there use the
same principle but they have different ratios of how many times
each frame is actually shown in order to make a glitch-free
picture.

	Of course, the sound is no problem at all and is handled
like any other audio input.

Back to the lamps;

>> ? They are so hot that movie film melts in about a second
> if it should stop still for that long in front of the lamp.

	Many 16-millimeter projectors have a way to let you show
a single frame on the screen but they do that by dropping a
heavy glass filter in the way of the searing light if you stop
the transport. The bad stuff happens when the transport is still
running but the film stops due to damage to the sprocket holes
along the edge. The damage gets much worse very fast.

	It is kind of interesting to think that this knowledge
is basically useless now, but a number of people probably do not
know how much went in to keeping 16-millimeter film projectors
alive and well.

	If you wonder about people who are blind working on
16-millimeter projectors, I can tell you that most mechanical
failures that effect the picture also either make funny noises
or disrupt the sound. A couple of things that one who is blind
can not do are focus the lens or adjust the framing. The framing
is the synchronization between the actual pictures on the film
and the movement of the film, itself. When it is wrong, you see
a horizontal black line somewhere in the picture and worst of
all, above the line is the bottom of the previous frame so it is
really wrong. The framing is an adjustment that the
projectionist always makes as he or she shows the film so it is
not something that the technician sets and everybody else leaves
alone.

Actually, once, I even went to a building and acted as the
projectionist when we were short-handed. I showed someone the
Framing and Focus controls and said, "Move this until it looks
right." It worked out okay anyway.

	I had no trouble adjusting the sound optics. It is
basically a case where you move the sound optics package while
running a film and adjust it until the sound is nice and crisp
and then you tighten the set screw.

	You are probably tired of this by now so I will close.

Martin McCormick

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Jun 16 22:49:54 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:49:54 -0500
Subject: Our Greasy Hands 
Message-ID: <201006162149.o5GLnskh012505@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> I'd have thought there would be some form of shielding to prevent people 
> from handling the bulb.

	Sorry. I almost missed that question. One can  touch
parts of the bulb. There are a great number of different shapes,
some with little reflectors around them and others shaped in
such a way as to let you grab their bases and some have an
opaque coating over some of the glass where the light is not
supposed to go and you can touch that.

	I never had much trouble about that because if the bulb
was burned out, one could examine the old one and thus know how
to safely handle the replacement or one could put a rag or glove
over one's fingers and safely handle it. That's a very good
thing to do if it was recently on and still hot.

From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat Jun 19 07:33:31 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:33:31 +0100
Subject: Brief Server Outage
Message-ID: <6C7CC208-82A0-4D90-8957-9F20920B01A4@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

I am writing to all of our groups to try to ensure that everybody, especially those directly affected, is aware of this small issue.

Yesterday evening; between around 22:00 and 23:00 we experienced a local power outage. This was unexpected as apparently somebody towards the top of our street somehow managed to short out the hub supplying us with power and took out all of this side of our street, plus all of the our side of the adjoining street.

We don't yet know what happened, but the police were soon on the scene in force as well as electrical engineers and a police helicopter circled overhead for a while with search lights blazing.

Anyway, we apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you. It did, of course, take our servers down for a time. We use UPS units but when the batteries run down they shut down.

Obviously this was a temporary problem beyond our control. But all should be back to normal now.


Lynne




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Sat Jun 19 17:48:38 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:48:38 -0500
Subject: Brief Server Outage 
Message-ID: <201006191648.o5JGmcWt038940@x.it.okstate.edu>

	It sounds like the authorities must have suspected some
foul play. Our power is fairly constant here but we will have
outages during thunderstorms as one might expect and then there
is the wildlife factor. We have a lot of  squirrels who scurry
along wires and find power poles and transformers inviting.
Transformers are warm in Winter and are frequently at the ends of
those wires so squirrels probably see them as nice high trees to
scamper around on. We will be going about life as usual and then
the power goes cleanly off punctuated by a raucous BOOM!
At that millisecond, one of the
squirrels changes from
carbon-based life form to just plain carbon.

	The primary voltages on the distribution side of the
neighborhood transformers are about 7600 volts between each
phase and Earth so a poor squirrel or any other living thing
that contacts a phase and something else probably never feels a
thing it is so fast.

	The city work crew usually comes out within half an hour
or so or a little longer on a holiday and replaces a fuse on the
power pole and everybody but the squirrel gets back to normal.

	I don't think the squirrels are the problem they used to
be because there are squirrel guards that the technicians can
place on transformers to make it more difficult for animals to
self-enolate.

Gordon & Lynne Smith writes:

> Yesterday evening; between around 22:00 and 23:00 we experienced a local 
> power outage. This was unexpected as apparently somebody towards the top 
> of our street somehow managed to short out the hub supplying us with 
> power and took out all of this side of our street, plus all of the our 
> side of the adjoining street.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Jun 19 20:25:10 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:25:10 +0100
Subject: Brief Server Outage 
In-Reply-To: <201006191648.o5JGmcWt038940@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006191648.o5JGmcWt038940@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <0E0FD0B6-7C33-4FB7-AA77-FE8757F1E750@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 19 Jun 2010, at 17:48, Martin McCormick wrote:

	It sounds like the authorities must have suspected some
foul play.

Two youths were arrested this morning following three of these incidents in 24 hours. Apparently they've been doing it deliberately in various parts of the town.

They have also caused small fires and called out the fire brigade on hoax calls over the last few weeks.

Two very mischievous young individuals who need to be squashed.

Lynne


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat Jun 19 20:32:16 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:32:16 +0100
Subject: Temporary List Moderator Change
Message-ID: <D9E5FD4D-DA28-4255-AF7A-AFA4C32DB987@tft-bbs.com>

Hello all

i haven't received a response from her yet; I guess she must be busy. But I need to post this now as Gordon and I will be leaving for London in the early hours of the morning on Sunday, 20 June 2010.  In other words, tomorrow.

I have asked Mary to assume temporary control of these lists; Just-Chat and Techno-Chat at tft-bbs.com, as Mary is our stand-in moderator.

We will be able to monitor the group while we're away; but definitive action won't be possible I don't think. Therefore, in the event that Mary cannot assume control, we'll belying on your good conduct to continue.

In recent tines the conduct of everybody on all of our lists has been exemplary. Long may that continue; and thank you all for that.

We could do without another Steven Taylor, (Graham Rowen, or whatever he's calling himself these days).

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Jun 20 01:14:28 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:14:28 +1000
Subject: Shortwave 'will continue to play major role' in Pacific
Message-ID: <553F83D2-F74D-4987-9CEE-99E0038CE6BA@internode.on.net>

Hi!

The subject of radio comes up here from time to time so thought list members may find the following of interest.

http://www.abu.org.my/abu/index.cfm/elementid/61486/Shortwave-will-continue-to-play-major-role-in-Pacific



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Jun 20 19:32:57 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:32:57 +1000
Subject: Apple onslaught catches Nokia napping
Message-ID: <CE7EFED9-76D3-4013-B84F-7629C46CA0A7@internode.on.net>

Hi everyone!

I was interested to read the article at the following link which talks about how Nokia are losing market dominance to Apple in the race for the Smart Phone.

Its good to have competition of course but my personal feelings on the matter run a little deeper than that.

Firstly I think it an outrage! that a visually impaired person has to pay extra for a third party software application to get a Nokia Smart Phone to talk but even more of an outrage is the fact that the software you get with your Nokia phone for the transfer of music, synching of contacts and so on is completely unaccessible to the totally blind user with a Screen Reader.

These last 2 points clearly illustrate how far Apple has come in the world of accessibility whereas Nokia have seen fit to sit on their hands it seems letting others do the work wherever possible.  These facts have been brought home to me very clearly given that I've had no choice but to stop using my Iphones as they're not compatible with my hearing instruments, believe it or not the Nokia I have is indeed compatible but that's hardly a consoling thought given my statements above <smile>.
Anyway read on and see what you think.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/apple-onslaught-catches-nokia-napping/story-e6frg8zx-1225882023199



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jun 21 14:46:26 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:46:26 -0500
Subject: Apple onslaught catches Nokia napping 
Message-ID: <201006211346.o5LDkQAd049438@x.it.okstate.edu>

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Its good to have competition of course but my personal feelings on the 
> matter run a little deeper than that.
> 
> Firstly I think it an outrage! that a visually impaired person has to pay 
> extra for a third party software application to get a Nokia Smart Phone 
> to talk but even more of an outrage is the fact that the software you get 
> with your Nokia phone for the transfer of music, synching of contacts and 
> so on is completely unaccessible to the totally blind user with a Screen 
> Reader.

	I agree 100%. That is one of several reasons why I will
not even consider using a Microsoft platform.

> These last 2 points clearly illustrate how far Apple has come in the 
> world of accessibility whereas Nokia have seen fit to sit on their hands 
> it seems letting others do the work wherever possible.  These facts have 
> been brought home to me very clearly given that I've had no choice but to 
> stop using my Iphones as they're not compatible with my hearing 
> instruments, believe it or not the Nokia I have is indeed compatible but 
> that's hardly a consoling thought given my statements above <smile>.

	I know that is a problem with various telephone designs.
Most hearing instruments switch to a magnetic pickup which
intercepts the weak magnetic fields that leak out of the little
voice coil in the earpiece of the telephone. Telephones with
piezoelectric transducers generate no magnetic fields. I can
also imagine that the radio frequency transmitter for the Iphone
might generate a very annoying buzzing sound when held near a
hearing instrument. The radio frequencies for WiFi and
Bluetooth, especially, are excellent for getting in to the
sensitive circuits of an audio amplifier. Think of the sounds
you get when your cell phone is close to your computer speakers
or to a microphone.

  While this is not exactly twenty-first-century elegance, I wonder if
one could fashion a stethoscope-like device to pickup the Iphone
sound from the speaker and get it close to one's ear or ears?

	I have a mechanic's stethoscope and it is much like a
medical stethoscope but the bell is slightly different. It is
used to locate mechanical noises in machinery such as squeaky
bearings and air leaks.

	It is basically a small funnel connected to a hose of
surgical rubber tubing that splits in to a Y with each side of
the Y going to an ear. One could have the tubing going to just
one ear. There is nothing magic about the Y configuration except
that the two earpieces block out other background noises. Just a
thought.

Martin McCormick

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jun 21 15:24:49 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:24:49 +1000
Subject: Apple onslaught catches Nokia napping 
In-Reply-To: <201006211346.o5LDkQAd049438@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201006211346.o5LDkQAd049438@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <DE550258-BF81-455D-B413-DA360CBD6596@internode.on.net>

Okay, some further explanation required.

My hearing instruments don't use the technology you described below to connect to my mobile phone, they use bluetooth through a remote controller but as I've found out, there's no standard way for manufacturers to use bluetooth, for example the Nokia phone will connect more easily to my hearing system than does the Iphone.

Now perhaps I'm too harsh a judge at this time and perhaps things will change in a very short time with the Iphone OS4 update which I believe is due to be released in a matter of hours!


On 21/06/2010, at 11:46 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Its good to have competition of course but my personal feelings on the 
>> matter run a little deeper than that.
>> 
>> Firstly I think it an outrage! that a visually impaired person has to pay 
>> extra for a third party software application to get a Nokia Smart Phone 
>> to talk but even more of an outrage is the fact that the software you get 
>> with your Nokia phone for the transfer of music, synching of contacts and 
>> so on is completely unaccessible to the totally blind user with a Screen 
>> Reader.
> 
> 	I agree 100%. That is one of several reasons why I will
> not even consider using a Microsoft platform.
> 
>> These last 2 points clearly illustrate how far Apple has come in the 
>> world of accessibility whereas Nokia have seen fit to sit on their hands 
>> it seems letting others do the work wherever possible.  These facts have 
>> been brought home to me very clearly given that I've had no choice but to 
>> stop using my Iphones as they're not compatible with my hearing 
>> instruments, believe it or not the Nokia I have is indeed compatible but 
>> that's hardly a consoling thought given my statements above <smile>.
> 
> 	I know that is a problem with various telephone designs.
> Most hearing instruments switch to a magnetic pickup which
> intercepts the weak magnetic fields that leak out of the little
> voice coil in the earpiece of the telephone. Telephones with
> piezoelectric transducers generate no magnetic fields. I can
> also imagine that the radio frequency transmitter for the Iphone
> might generate a very annoying buzzing sound when held near a
> hearing instrument. The radio frequencies for WiFi and
> Bluetooth, especially, are excellent for getting in to the
> sensitive circuits of an audio amplifier. Think of the sounds
> you get when your cell phone is close to your computer speakers
> or to a microphone.
> 
>  While this is not exactly twenty-first-century elegance, I wonder if
> one could fashion a stethoscope-like device to pickup the Iphone
> sound from the speaker and get it close to one's ear or ears?
> 
> 	I have a mechanic's stethoscope and it is much like a
> medical stethoscope but the bell is slightly different. It is
> used to locate mechanical noises in machinery such as squeaky
> bearings and air leaks.
> 
> 	It is basically a small funnel connected to a hose of
> surgical rubber tubing that splits in to a Y with each side of
> the Y going to an ear. One could have the tubing going to just
> one ear. There is nothing magic about the Y configuration except
> that the two earpieces block out other background noises. Just a
> thought.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Jun 22 04:03:08 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:03:08 -0400
Subject: Temporary List Moderator Change
In-Reply-To: <D9E5FD4D-DA28-4255-AF7A-AFA4C32DB987@tft-bbs.com>
References: <D9E5FD4D-DA28-4255-AF7A-AFA4C32DB987@tft-bbs.com>
Message-ID: <20100621230308.kk0bm9cjk0gck8s0@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

I am happy to assume this responsibility. It has taken me a while to 
respond because I was attending a conference in Denver, Colorado. The 
conference was about Sakai, a learning management system that our 
university uses. It was very exciting because everyone wanted to know 
about accessibility and how to integrate it into the next version of 
Sakai. It was a very intense time, a week full of 12- to 14-hour days. 
There were people from all around the world, from South Africa, 
Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and all over the country. The hotel was 
awful, but I'd go to another conference. The good thing is that it 
rotates all over the world, the conference location that is. Next 
year's will be in Berlin. I'm not sure how I feel about that, because I 
definitely can't speak German.

Mary
Quoting Gordon & Lynne Smith <support at tft-bbs.com>:

> Hello all
>
> i haven't received a response from her yet; I guess she must be busy.
> But I need to post this now as Gordon and I will be leaving for
> London in the early hours of the morning on Sunday, 20 June 2010.  In
> other words, tomorrow.
>
> I have asked Mary to assume temporary control of these lists;
> Just-Chat and Techno-Chat at tft-bbs.com, as Mary is our stand-in
> moderator.
>
> We will be able to monitor the group while we're away; but definitive
> action won't be possible I don't think. Therefore, in the event that
> Mary cannot assume control, we'll belying on your good conduct to
> continue.
>
> In recent tines the conduct of everybody on all of our lists has been
> exemplary. Long may that continue; and thank you all for that.
>
> We could do without another Steven Taylor, (Graham Rowen, or whatever
> he's calling himself these days).
>
> Lynne
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Jun 22 16:25:40 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:25:40 -0500
Subject: Apple onslaught catches Nokia napping 
Message-ID: <201006221525.o5MFPexW060476@x.it.okstate.edu>

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Okay, some further explanation required.
> 
> My hearing instruments don't use the technology you described below to 
> connect to my mobile phone, they use bluetooth through a remote 
> controller but as I've found out, there's no standard way for 
> manufacturers to use bluetooth, for example the Nokia phone will connect 
> more easily to my hearing system than does the Iphone.

That is really madening, I am sure. I once heard someone say
that standards are wonderful. Everybody should have one.

> Now perhaps I'm too harsh a judge at this time and perhaps things will 
> change in a very short time with the Iphone OS4 update which I believe is 
> due to be released in a matter of hours!

	Let's hope Apple updated the Bluetooth module. The
release here has been delayed a few weeks. Iphones here are
forced by suit edict to belong to AT&T and can not be affiliated
with other cellular networks. Occasionally, someone will figure
out how to hack one so it can use other networks but Apple
doesn't appreciate that at all and they are making hacking
harder and harder.

	People have been reporting service problems that appear
to be related to AT&T's inability to provide enough bandwidth or
some other related resource so the rumor is that the delay was
to give AT&T time to clean up their house.

Martin

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jul  6 17:21:22 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 17:21:22 +0100
Subject: Infosound: Information about living with sight loss
In-Reply-To: <F7E173D9-B7DA-45B2-A069-EDA03772D7FC@googlemail.com>
References: <F7E173D9-B7DA-45B2-A069-EDA03772D7FC@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <EF928D74-3975-4FE6-876D-E3FD21764787@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Gordon

I've moved this from Just-Chat, as I think it's more appropriate here. :-)
Yes, this is something that's been going a while.

Actually I remember it from the days when they only sent audio cassettes.  I don't subscribe myself as to be honest, I find that I can get all the information they provide elsewhere and more rapidly as well.

But for some, it is a good service, no denying that.

Gordon

On 6 Jul 2010, at 14:28, Gordon Keen wrote:

Hi

I heard about this service via T.N.A.U.K. (Talking Newspapers Association of the United Kingdom) and is likely only of interest to U.K. residents.   If anyone remembers the tape magazine *Soundings) this sounds very similar.

http://www.infosound.org.uk/

_______________________________________________

The Just-Chat forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free.

Please don't forget to visit the list's website from time to time to ensure that your subscription settings are up to date, and manage your preferences.

You may do this at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/just-chat

You can find an archive of all list posts since 12 April 2010 at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/just-chat-index.html


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Jul  7 10:32:29 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 19:32:29 +1000
Subject: The Siemens Tek Remote Controller for Hearing Instruments
Message-ID: <0D1CAC77-4B28-4FB5-9E1D-57193C8BA073@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Just uploaded a review and demo of this device to Blind Cool Tech but it may not be published on the site for a while so if you wish to get a sneak preview then use the following link to download the review which is about 10MB in size.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xphgx1

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Jul  7 13:37:55 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 07:37:55 -0500
Subject: The Siemens Tek Remote Controller for Hearing Instruments 
Message-ID: <201007071237.o67CbtUQ068821@x.it.okstate.edu>

Dane,

	Were you able to get your Iphone to get along with your
hearing instrument?

Martin


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Jul  7 13:40:55 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:40:55 +1000
Subject: The Siemens Tek Remote Controller for Hearing Instruments 
In-Reply-To: <201007071237.o67CbtUQ068821@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007071237.o67CbtUQ068821@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <859AC04E-B7E4-4615-9B6A-77886279FC5B@internode.on.net>

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, thankfully it worked during the demo I did but the Tek Connect works far better with my Nokia N85 for some reason.


On 07/07/2010, at 10:37 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Dane,
> 
> 	Were you able to get your Iphone to get along with your
> hearing instrument?
> 
> Martin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 06:31:43 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 06:31:43 +0100
Subject: Sunrise Sunset app for Mac
In-Reply-To: <94E316F9-E4FA-4CD9-BFC2-3DD11579F12D@internode.on.net>
References: <F0B71BEB-FDB3-4A95-95E7-6143E927CC7A@internode.on.net>
	<9B7D6471-391B-498A-9709-FE47DEC1772C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<94E316F9-E4FA-4CD9-BFC2-3DD11579F12D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <5B4347EE-6E83-4F02-AAC3-F36918B4023B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

I have moved this from Mac Access as it's now straying a little off topic.

Firstly, I think I need to try and find some way of making it even more clear to people when a remark is intended humorously because it doesn't seem to be being picked up for some reason.

I mean this next comment tongue in cheek.  Here goes; I make a one-line observation and it results in a major essay in reply! <Lynne is laughingly commenting>.

Now, more seriously to reply to your comments.

On 8 Jul 2010, at 03:58, Dane Trethowan wrote:

? Just one of those things I'm interested in but the app does have practical use round here.  Firstly if you open your blinds during a Winters day to let the sun in its helpful to know when the sun rises and sets so you know when to open and clothes them.  Conversely, its handy to know this stuff during the Summer for obvious reasons, you want to work or do stuff when its cool and not hot.

I'm still skeptical but as you insist on attributing the quote to Gordon, whatever floats your boat says Lynne, laughingly again.

Surely, if you open your blinds or curtains or windows, even just to peek out, you can feel whether the sun is up without having to have a computer tell you so?

? Secondly, I would think that those with limited vision may find this useful particularly if they're mobile.

I don't get it.  I mean yes, maybe they need to know it's light. But hey, that's why we who have vision open our eyes, so that we can see it's light.

That's why people wear glasses, to help them detect various visual attributes; light being one such example for some people.

? Anyway regardless of how interested or disinterested I or anyone else is I think its a damn good app, just purchased the Pro version which gives me access to the database of world-wide locations and this is extremely detailed, there are over 1500 town listings for The United Kingdom for instance and you can make your own.

Again though, why? Honestly I'm not being difficult; I'm genuinely interested in, for example, why you need to know the sun is up 12000 miles away from where you are. Surely it isn't difficult to arrive at a rough approximation based on time zone.

For instance, if you're 11 hours ahead of us, and it's 9 in the morning where you are, it's pretty safe to assume it 8 PM where we are.

At 8 PM it's pretty safe to assume the sun is passed is peak for the day, and it either soon will or already has set.

I guess I'm obviously missing something pretty fundamental here. For the benefit of those not on mac Access, Dane has just bought himself a little programme for the iPhone that tells him the time of sunrise and sunset in his own back yard and across the world.

I'm trying to figure out why it is so useful. But Dane, I had better make myself clear again here. Just so that, as so often seems to happen these days, people don't get my meaning in a twisted sort of way.

I'm not picking holes; I'm not criticising; I'm not poking fun at anybody. I'm genuinely interested and I just seem to be having trouble with your logic.

Not, of course, that it makes much difference to me either way. I'm just curious but if it's going to cause problems then just leave it and we'll live and let live. Lynne is smiling, I hope your screen-reader picked that up.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Jul  8 06:38:35 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 15:38:35 +1000
Subject: Sunrise Sunset app for Mac
In-Reply-To: <5B4347EE-6E83-4F02-AAC3-F36918B4023B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <F0B71BEB-FDB3-4A95-95E7-6143E927CC7A@internode.on.net>
	<9B7D6471-391B-498A-9709-FE47DEC1772C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<94E316F9-E4FA-4CD9-BFC2-3DD11579F12D@internode.on.net>
	<5B4347EE-6E83-4F02-AAC3-F36918B4023B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33B7CAB3-CADE-4F60-BF2C-0455C4E66BC7@internode.on.net>

as you say, whatever floats your boat and I'm actually more than astonished that you even bothered wasting your time in the first place to reply to my original message <smile< how useful is the App? well may be you would have been better off to download the app and try it yourself to determine how useful it may or may not be rather than waste time emailing a reply.


On 08/07/2010, at 3:31 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> I have moved this from Mac Access as it's now straying a little off topic.
> 
> Firstly, I think I need to try and find some way of making it even more clear to people when a remark is intended humorously because it doesn't seem to be being picked up for some reason.
> 
> I mean this next comment tongue in cheek.  Here goes; I make a one-line observation and it results in a major essay in reply! <Lynne is laughingly commenting>.
> 
> Now, more seriously to reply to your comments.
> 
> On 8 Jul 2010, at 03:58, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> ? Just one of those things I'm interested in but the app does have practical use round here.  Firstly if you open your blinds during a Winters day to let the sun in its helpful to know when the sun rises and sets so you know when to open and clothes them.  Conversely, its handy to know this stuff during the Summer for obvious reasons, you want to work or do stuff when its cool and not hot.
> 
> I'm still skeptical but as you insist on attributing the quote to Gordon, whatever floats your boat says Lynne, laughingly again.
> 
> Surely, if you open your blinds or curtains or windows, even just to peek out, you can feel whether the sun is up without having to have a computer tell you so?
> 
> ? Secondly, I would think that those with limited vision may find this useful particularly if they're mobile.
> 
> I don't get it.  I mean yes, maybe they need to know it's light. But hey, that's why we who have vision open our eyes, so that we can see it's light.
> 
> That's why people wear glasses, to help them detect various visual attributes; light being one such example for some people.
> 
> ? Anyway regardless of how interested or disinterested I or anyone else is I think its a damn good app, just purchased the Pro version which gives me access to the database of world-wide locations and this is extremely detailed, there are over 1500 town listings for The United Kingdom for instance and you can make your own.
> 
> Again though, why? Honestly I'm not being difficult; I'm genuinely interested in, for example, why you need to know the sun is up 12000 miles away from where you are. Surely it isn't difficult to arrive at a rough approximation based on time zone.
> 
> For instance, if you're 11 hours ahead of us, and it's 9 in the morning where you are, it's pretty safe to assume it 8 PM where we are.
> 
> At 8 PM it's pretty safe to assume the sun is passed is peak for the day, and it either soon will or already has set.
> 
> I guess I'm obviously missing something pretty fundamental here. For the benefit of those not on mac Access, Dane has just bought himself a little programme for the iPhone that tells him the time of sunrise and sunset in his own back yard and across the world.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out why it is so useful. But Dane, I had better make myself clear again here. Just so that, as so often seems to happen these days, people don't get my meaning in a twisted sort of way.
> 
> I'm not picking holes; I'm not criticising; I'm not poking fun at anybody. I'm genuinely interested and I just seem to be having trouble with your logic.
> 
> Not, of course, that it makes much difference to me either way. I'm just curious but if it's going to cause problems then just leave it and we'll live and let live. Lynne is smiling, I hope your screen-reader picked that up.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 13:19:30 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:19:30 +0100
Subject: BC iPlayer blog
Message-ID: <8788F04A-FFCB-4AAD-AABC-CC2BA8CE0543@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

I thought some might find this page of interest. It does contain some very interesting material and some stuff about DAB.

Lynne

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2010/06/bbc_iplayer_on_the_ipad_update.html


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Jul  9 12:18:26 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 06:18:26 -0500
Subject: Sunrise Sunset app for Mac 
Message-ID: <201007091118.o69BIQJ0085776@x.it.okstate.edu>

	One site I have had very good luck with is the mobile
edition of Weatherunderground.com. It is very screen-reader
friendly and it does give you Sunrise and Sunset times along
with current weather conditions and a forecast if you want to
read that far.

http://mobile.wunderground.com/auto/mobile_english

	Just enter the city and enough other geographic
information to describe the town you are interested in such as

london England

stillwater oklahoma

Christchurch new zealand

It does not even care about case and will give you Fahrenheit or
Celsius depending on what you select.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Jul 11 07:58:48 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:58:48 +1000
Subject: Surround-Sound for your computer,
	doing it cheap but doing a very reasonable job
Message-ID: <599912E2-EBEE-4DB6-8877-C18886F62F54@internode.on.net>

Hi Everyone!

For the last 16 years or so Surround-Sount and multi channel sound has been a bit of a hobby of mine and I started my interest in the topic when I purchased my Denon AVR-2000 Dolby Pro-Logic reciever in late 1994 and an old Akia quadrophonic amp some time before that, thankfully we've marched ahead in leaps and bounds on the subject of multi channel and surround sound to the point where you can pick up some truly reasonable gear for a song or even for a slice of the floor space of your automobile should you be in the right place at the right time as I just happened to be when I managed to pick up a Yamaha RX-v520 Surround-Sound receiver for the cost of $50.00, a true bargain!

This receiver is not the newest one around, actually the model as far as I can tell dates back 7 years but if you're just wanting to start out with surround-sound, you're wanting to run your computer through something half decent, you have some reasonable speakers lying about with the chance you may obtain more in the future and you don't give a damn about today's High Definition standards then this receiver is really something to look for if you can find one.

On the down side, my receiver has a problem with the display, a sighted person can see it but the back light doesn't work, no concern of mine of course since I can't see the thing anyway.  The next fault the unit had was that the FM aerial coaxual cable socket had broken but this was easily fixed by my local serviceman who obtained a Yamaha tuner module and replaced the old one with the new, again that wasn't a worry for me as I have enough radios round the place but it was nice to get the thing working for a reasonable fee <smile>.

Now onto a few great points about this amp, the sound from this amp is in my opinion some of the best I've heard, the amp is by no means Yamaha's top of the range receiver and I think at the time from what I've found out so far that it sold for under a thousand dollars so for what you hear you're getting a true bargain, I connected the amp digitally to my computer and other components and I discovered that the sound output was even better than if I'd used the analogue inputs, there is unfortunately a little hiss but its not too noticable and you'll still enjoy the reproduction that this receiver gives you.

Unlike the Pioneer surround-sound receiver I have, the Yamaha looks and feels more like your standard Hi-fi am with speaker a-b switches for the front speakers, a volume, balance, bass and treble control and so on, you can press a button to totally "bypass" the surround-sound processing and just have the amp work through your front speakers which may be desirable in some situations though you can get some really amazing effects when using the DSP with multiple speakers and music.

Unlike my Pioneer and my Denon, the Yamaha has multiple digital inputs which should suffice just about any situation I would think and heaps of possibilities with its multiple analogue inputs and outputs, even if you have an Iphone or an Ipod you'll love the AV inputs on the front which include yet another optical digital input as well as analogue, very convenient and easily accessible for those devices you wish to set up in a hurry.

Naturally this receiver has multiple analogue inputs for the various channels which you may find handy to use if you like me have quad channel devices such as a SACD player, quad 8-track cartridge player, and so on, multi channel material is fully supported through the digital inputs and I have no trouble with the DTS CD'S I have,  Audio Video CD'S and multi channel surround DVD's.

The manual for the receiver is available from Yamaha in a pdf format, its well detailed and easy to follow with plenty of explanations about what the functions do.  The receiver is easy to get around and some people may find the controls on the front panel easier to use than those on the remote control, DSP effects are controlled by an up/down rocker, the rocker cycles through them and each input of the receiver can be set separately.

The weak part of this receiver is its tuner, you really need both an outside AM and FM aerial but once you have that then you'll enjoy a nice wide band on AM and reasonable sound from FM.

Note that the output wattage may vary depending on which country you purchase this receiver in, the Australian version is rated at 100RMS per channel whilst the north American version is rated at 80RMS per channel, not sure why this is but I wonder if it may have something to do with the different AC mains voltages each country uses?


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jul 12 00:40:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 00:40:51 +0100
Subject: RAR for Windows
Message-ID: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello technology world.

Does anybody know, if I may ask, is there a freeware RAR expander for Windows?Looks like that's going to be a necessary tool for me or rather for my clients from now on.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 12 04:39:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:39:11 +1000
Subject: RAR for Windows
In-Reply-To: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>

I don't know of one myself but I have a suggestion, could you not make self-extracting RAR archives so that way your clients could just run the archive? Naturally this would of course mean that you'd have to use a Windows machine to produce the archive or a virtual machine on your Mac.

I know someone who's into this stuff and I'll run your question past him.


On 12/07/2010, at 9:40 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello technology world.
> 
> Does anybody know, if I may ask, is there a freeware RAR expander for Windows?Looks like that's going to be a necessary tool for me or rather for my clients from now on.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jul 12 07:44:50 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:44:50 +0100
Subject: RAR for Windows
In-Reply-To: <ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>
References: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

No.  This approach won't work because of the nature of the archives.

They are for client distribution and not everybody runs Macs, not everybody runs Windows.  We need cross-latform compatibility and SFX archives or volumes would not give us that option.

On 12 Jul 2010, at 04:39, Dane Trethowan wrote:

I don't know of one myself but I have a suggestion, could you not make self-extracting RAR archives so that way your clients could just run the archive? Naturally this would of course mean that you'd have to use a Windows machine to produce the archive or a virtual machine on your Mac.

I know someone who's into this stuff and I'll run your question past him.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 12 07:57:10 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:57:10 +1000
Subject: RAR for Windows
In-Reply-To: <A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>
	<A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <72730C92-F727-46E0-9ED3-67FB7CFB63BC@internode.on.net>

Okay, well the only other thing I can think of doing at this time is getting them to install Winrar and giving them some basic instructions, telling them to use the "Extract Here" command from the context menu etc.


On 12/07/2010, at 4:44 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> No.  This approach won't work because of the nature of the archives.
> 
> They are for client distribution and not everybody runs Macs, not everybody runs Windows.  We need cross-latform compatibility and SFX archives or volumes would not give us that option.
> 
> On 12 Jul 2010, at 04:39, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I don't know of one myself but I have a suggestion, could you not make self-extracting RAR archives so that way your clients could just run the archive? Naturally this would of course mean that you'd have to use a Windows machine to produce the archive or a virtual machine on your Mac.
> 
> I know someone who's into this stuff and I'll run your question past him.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 12 08:09:48 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:09:48 +1000
Subject: RAR for Windows
In-Reply-To: <A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>
	<A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2ADC16B9-0305-4338-968E-7530D59F0D45@internode.on.net>

Okay, I've not looked at this page but perhaps this Windows Rar Expander may help you.
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/rar-expander-xp.html

On 12/07/2010, at 4:44 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> No.  This approach won't work because of the nature of the archives.
> 
> They are for client distribution and not everybody runs Macs, not everybody runs Windows.  We need cross-latform compatibility and SFX archives or volumes would not give us that option.
> 
> On 12 Jul 2010, at 04:39, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I don't know of one myself but I have a suggestion, could you not make self-extracting RAR archives so that way your clients could just run the archive? Naturally this would of course mean that you'd have to use a Windows machine to produce the archive or a virtual machine on your Mac.
> 
> I know someone who's into this stuff and I'll run your question past him.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jul 12 08:12:34 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:12:34 +0100
Subject: RAR problem solved
Message-ID: <AA9007AE-2291-4095-8100-1D3560BBC100@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I've found the answer to the RAR issue.

I now have the de-archive tools I need for both Mac Windows and, if it comes to that, LINUX that will let us do what we want without seriously inconveniencing our clients.  Problem solved.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jul 12 08:18:36 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:18:36 +0100
Subject: RAR for Windows
In-Reply-To: <2ADC16B9-0305-4338-968E-7530D59F0D45@internode.on.net>
References: <D59D8A40-C89E-432B-AAC5-A5B964A35C1D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ABEBF9DB-7D72-4CBA-879A-A3FDC36BF113@internode.on.net>
	<A99CAA91-974A-4D03-BD1D-483AF8B388A6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2ADC16B9-0305-4338-968E-7530D59F0D45@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <8AF0F41F-2FBE-4C46-8E01-9DD15B80664C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I did actually look at that page yesterday.  I'm pretty sure it is the same one.  But not to worry, I've just found a better option if it's the one I'm thinking of because it handles all kinds of archives, it's new and it's free.

In fact it creates archives as well I think, which is even better because it's very very small and lightweight.  Now I can make a start on the Applescript I'm going to use to do that job and it's out of the way.


On 12 Jul 2010, at 08:09, Dane Trethowan wrote:

Okay, I've not looked at this page but perhaps this Windows Rar Expander may help you.
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/rar-expander-xp.html

On 12/07/2010, at 4:44 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> No.  This approach won't work because of the nature of the archives.
> 
> They are for client distribution and not everybody runs Macs, not everybody runs Windows.  We need cross-latform compatibility and SFX archives or volumes would not give us that option.
> 
> On 12 Jul 2010, at 04:39, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I don't know of one myself but I have a suggestion, could you not make self-extracting RAR archives so that way your clients could just run the archive? Naturally this would of course mean that you'd have to use a Windows machine to produce the archive or a virtual machine on your Mac.
> 
> I know someone who's into this stuff and I'll run your question past him.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12



_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From support at tft-bbs.com  Mon Jul 12 08:32:34 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:32:34 +0100
Subject: Softeware Access Revised
Message-ID: <A0CA5630-FC94-48DA-A7C4-1431DB0825B5@tft-bbs.com>

Hello all

Following discussions regarding the decision to remove access yesterday to group members to our software collection, we have revised this again but this time made it more generic and, we hope, convenient for all including us.

Basically, it is there and if you don't want to use it that's your business.

If anybody is looking for software that they think we might have, log into the following URL with the user ID: software and password your E-Mail address.

That will allow limited download access to the software collection, and nothing else.  This way nobody is committed but everybody has the option.

The URL is https://files.tft-bbs.co.uk
using either a standard browser, WebDAV (from the Mac's Finder) or similar WebDAV client.

If you want to use FTP you may do so at ftp://ftp.tft-bbs.co.uk
We will shortly be adding FTTPS support with TLS but for now we only handle FTTPS support with implicit SSL on port 990.

Just a quick work-around that we hope will satisfy those who contacted us off list with requests for access.  The web pages are now mostly text-only and should render much more quickly.

Gordon


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 12 09:20:41 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:20:41 +1000
Subject: Plextalk PTX1 Pro
Message-ID: <96942A4E-CF86-4541-96BE-458254E5EE4C@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I have one of these machines, as people will know it has an ethernet and Wi-Fi connection for your local network but as yet not enabled, I also accidentally discovered that this device has bluetooth facilities and yet they also seem disabled though my Apple Mac can see the Plextalk when I look for bluetooth devices.

I'm trying to get more details about this and when I find out more I let the list know.  If I can have bluetooth enabled then it may be very handy indeed, at least I may be able to have a direct connection between the Plextalk and my hearing aids for example which would make the listening to audio books and the like so much better.

Not that I'm complaining too much now, one of the nice features of the PTX1 is the truly excellent sounding internal speaker.


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jul 12 12:31:37 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:31:37 -0500
Subject: Surround-Sound for your computer,
	doing it cheap but doing a very reasonable job 
Message-ID: <201007121131.o6CBVbBO009990@x.it.okstate.edu>

These are educated gueses but a couple of things are possible.
There was some discussion in the United States several years ago
as to how amplifier specifications should be written to be
honest and represent real world conditions such as in your
living room. Some amplifiers can deliver thunderous power for a
brief moment until the filter capacitors drain to a point that
the power supply is just keeping up. That could be several Watts
less than that original burst. Assuming all is working properly,
that might be the difference between 100 Watts and 80 Watts. I
don't remember what was actually done about the spec wars, but
the manufacturers several years ago all had various paper tweaks
that made their products appear to have more horsepower than
they really did. I wouldn't actually call these tweaks blatant
fraud, but the fraise "pushing it a little" comes to mind.

	While the different mains voltages in the US and those
used in much of the rest of the world do effect such things as
the turns ratios in power transformers and the design details of
various other electrical devices, I don't think it matters much
in the actual amplifier's ability to deliver energy to the
speakers because the power supply is going to look pretty much
the same after the transformer. I even have a small power
transformer that came out of a piece of Telex audio equipment
from the seventies era. The secondary is a center-tapped winding
that should deliver 20 or 30 volts to the electronics. The
primary is a double or bi-filer winding that in the United
States had both pairs of wires soldered together. If I sent you
that transformer in Australia, you would get the same output
from it by simply connecting the two pairs in series. The only
difference you would see is that the low voltage side would now
be running at 50 HZ instead of 60.

	If you open a lot of gear, one tends to find power
supplies that can be made to run on either 120 or 240 volts. If
anything, the 60-HZ frequency used here helps the filter
capacitors replenish a wee bit faster but, again, this is
negligible.

Martin

Dane writes:
> Note that the output wattage may vary depending on which country you 
> purchase this receiver in, the Australian version is rated at 100RMS per 
> channel whilst the north American version is rated at 80RMS per channel, 
> not sure why this is but I wonder if it may have something to do with the 
> different AC mains voltages each country uses?
> 
> 
> Dane Trethowan
> grtdane at internode.on.net
> 
> Mobile:/SMS +614571201
> Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
> MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
> skype: grtdane12
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group 
> since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Jul 15 19:17:34 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 04:17:34 +1000
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
Message-ID: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>

Hi!

If you like your Daisy books and you're interested in all the material that the Gutenberg project has to offer in Daisy format then take a look at 
http://www.guidedogswa.org/library/openbiblio/opac/index.php



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jul 15 21:40:36 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:40:36 +0100
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
In-Reply-To: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
References: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

What the heck is Gutenberg?

On 15 Jul 2010, at 19:17, Dane Trethowan wrote:

If you like your Daisy books and you're interested in all the material that the Gutenberg project has to offer in Daisy format then take a look at 
http://www.guidedogswa.org/library/openbiblio/opac/index.php


From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Jul 15 21:58:08 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:58:08 -0400
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
In-Reply-To: <CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
	<CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100715165808.21vep6tecc0c4s8g@webmail.iu.edu>

Project Gutenberg provides free e-books in the public domain. 
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page There are titles such as Black 
Beauty and Les Miserables, just as an example.

Mary

Quoting Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> What the heck is Gutenberg?
>



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jul 15 22:21:05 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:21:05 +0100
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
In-Reply-To: <20100715165808.21vep6tecc0c4s8g@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
	<CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100715165808.21vep6tecc0c4s8g@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <36E018D6-4487-49DA-9866-442036E4DD1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

Yup, just did a google and found that site.  Sadly, I think most of the content is in eBook format, is that not right?  I had a brief glance at their catalogue, (meeeeeeeow), (I thin I prefer dogalogues).  Maybe then I could find woofly what I'm looking for!  Oh, sorry!  Sorry!  I'll behave myself!

Just out of interest though, how do you download books from them? I kept seeing links to mirror sites and that was all.

Gordon

On 15 Jul 2010, at 21:58, Mary Stores wrote:

Project Gutenberg provides free e-books in the public domain. http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page There are titles such as Black Beauty and Les Miserables, just as an example.

Mary

Quoting Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> What the heck is Gutenberg?
> 


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Jul 16 00:37:05 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:37:05 +1000
Subject: Daisy Titles readily available?
Message-ID: <0514D54A-EA4F-4E4E-95F0-A55ADB5743B0@internode.on.net>

This is interesting, I've just received my shipment of books for the month from my local public library and one is a commercially available daisy title, don't know how good the production is yet but at least I can navigate the thing.

The book came on a CD ROM and works well on the Plextalk PTX1 Pro.


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Jul 16 00:50:52 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 00:50:52 +0100
Subject: Daisy Titles readily available?
In-Reply-To: <0514D54A-EA4F-4E4E-95F0-A55ADB5743B0@internode.on.net>
References: <0514D54A-EA4F-4E4E-95F0-A55ADB5743B0@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <9B1EAB83-6610-478A-A652-73D2503CE15E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I must be missing something here.  What's interesting, the fact that you got your books?

On 16 Jul 2010, at 00:37, Dane Trethowan wrote:

This is interesting, I've just received my shipment of books for the month from my local public library and one is a commercially available daisy title, don't know how good the production is yet but at least I can navigate the thing.

The book came on a CD ROM and works well on the Plextalk PTX1 Pro.



From mstores at indiana.edu  Fri Jul 16 01:08:49 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:08:49 -0400
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
In-Reply-To: <36E018D6-4487-49DA-9866-442036E4DD1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
	<CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100715165808.21vep6tecc0c4s8g@webmail.iu.edu>
	<36E018D6-4487-49DA-9866-442036E4DD1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100715200849.69xhdgr2a88ossso@webmail.iu.edu>

Gordon,

f you find a book, the format you want, then there are links to either 
the main site or mirror sites. If you can't find the main site links, 
maybe I can download whatever you want for you and send it to you?

Mary



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Jul 16 01:40:30 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:40:30 +0100
Subject: Beyond Books, Beyond Barriers
In-Reply-To: <20100715200849.69xhdgr2a88ossso@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <26B36CE0-4C10-4D39-BE42-5FDD0F90ECC9@internode.on.net>
	<CC838BA4-CC3F-43AC-96D9-0D86831C365D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100715165808.21vep6tecc0c4s8g@webmail.iu.edu>
	<36E018D6-4487-49DA-9866-442036E4DD1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100715200849.69xhdgr2a88ossso@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <F16E3032-11A3-4550-A133-EE260E2EFA2B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

Let me write you off list about this.

Gordon


On 16 Jul 2010, at 01:08, Mary Stores wrote:

Gordon,

f you find a book, the format you want, then there are links to either the main site or mirror sites. If you can't find the main site links, maybe I can download whatever you want for you and send it to you?

Mary


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From lomaswilliam at googlemail.com  Sat Jul 17 10:54:07 2010
From: lomaswilliam at googlemail.com (william lomas)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:54:07 +0100
Subject: openbook
Message-ID: <8F6381E4-66CF-41BC-A2E5-D41A61B95F3F@googlemail.com>

	hi does anyone know why for some reason my openbook demo on my netbook is refusing to start? one minute it works next, no response. Maybe I need to recover my nc10 as something may be corrupt?
I do like openbook 8 it is very accurate

Incidentally does anyone know how you recover an nc10 from the keyboard back to its factory defaults


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Jul 17 11:11:49 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 20:11:49 +1000
Subject: openbook
In-Reply-To: <8F6381E4-66CF-41BC-A2E5-D41A61B95F3F@googlemail.com>
References: <8F6381E4-66CF-41BC-A2E5-D41A61B95F3F@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <233BA4DE-5CEA-4151-8A69-7ECC6ECE1E65@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I registered Open book some 15 years ago but I've never bothered to upgrade it.  Have you thought about sending a message to Freedom Scientific tech support? Not that you're going to get an answer straight away but its probably still worth a try.


On 17/07/2010, at 7:54 PM, william lomas wrote:

> 	hi does anyone know why for some reason my openbook demo on my netbook is refusing to start? one minute it works next, no response. Maybe I need to recover my nc10 as something may be corrupt?
> I do like openbook 8 it is very accurate
> 
> Incidentally does anyone know how you recover an nc10 from the keyboard back to its factory defaults
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From lomaswilliam at googlemail.com  Sat Jul 17 14:25:27 2010
From: lomaswilliam at googlemail.com (william lomas)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:25:27 +0100
Subject: recover nc10
Message-ID: <69FA8410-12CF-42A9-A95C-A735387420B2@googlemail.com>

	hi does anyone know how i recover nc10 without sight?


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Jul 18 11:39:18 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:39:18 +1000
Subject: Daisy Titles readily available?
In-Reply-To: <9B1EAB83-6610-478A-A652-73D2503CE15E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <0514D54A-EA4F-4E4E-95F0-A55ADB5743B0@internode.on.net>
	<9B1EAB83-6610-478A-A652-73D2503CE15E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4C42D9D6.8060804@internode.on.net>

Yep probably <smile>, I borrowed a Daisy title from my local library 
this morning.  Firstly this is your standard-type public Library so I 
was pleasantly surprised that they had Daisy titles to borrow.  
Secondly, this title is commercially avaialbe and can be purchased from 
wherever one purchases audio books, your local department store and so 
on and this is a great move as the publica now have access to Daisy 
material should they want it,.

On 16/07/2010 9:50 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> I must be missing something here.  What's interesting, the fact that you got your books?
>
> On 16 Jul 2010, at 00:37, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>
> This is interesting, I've just received my shipment of books for the month from my local public library and one is a commercially available daisy title, don't know how good the production is yet but at least I can navigate the thing.
>
> The book came on a CD ROM and works well on the Plextalk PTX1 Pro.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>    


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Jul 18 23:01:36 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 23:01:36 +0100
Subject: Senneiser MCW1 Wireless Earphones System
Message-ID: <ACFC99F7-8D12-4F9F-9641-D42AF40ACC16@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi

I just got my hands on one of these.  If anybody is interested I'll post a review.

It's interesting because Apple, for instance, markets these things as iPod/iPhone 3G compatible earphones.  Selective advertising I would suggest.  In fact, it's bordering on the false information.  But anyway, if anybody is interested in hearing more about these amazing little beasts, I'll write an in-depth review, based on experience, not advertising.

Gordon


From nigel.rhodes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 16:02:56 2010
From: nigel.rhodes at gmail.com (Nigel Rhodes)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:02:56 -0400
Subject: Senneiser MCW1 Wireless Earphones System
In-Reply-To: <ACFC99F7-8D12-4F9F-9641-D42AF40ACC16@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <ACFC99F7-8D12-4F9F-9641-D42AF40ACC16@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <159E25CF-FF17-4EB0-8956-9161030F1EC0@gmail.com>

Gordon, I'd love to hear your review.
Regards,
Nigel Rhodes
nigel.rhodes at gmail.com



On Jul 18, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi
>
> I just got my hands on one of these.  If anybody is interested I'll  
> post a review.
>
> It's interesting because Apple, for instance, markets these things  
> as iPod/iPhone 3G compatible earphones.  Selective advertising I  
> would suggest.  In fact, it's bordering on the false information.   
> But anyway, if anybody is interested in hearing more about these  
> amazing little beasts, I'll write an in-depth review, based on  
> experience, not advertising.
>
> Gordon
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,  
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's  
> dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat  
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Jul 21 16:55:38 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:55:38 -0500
Subject: Remember Apollo
Message-ID: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Yesterday, I was thinking about the fact that it had
been 41 years since Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. I was 17 that
Summer and about to be a Senior in high school so it seemed to
me that the space race between us and the Russians had been
going on forever when, in fact, it lasted only about 12 years
starting with the Soviet launch of Sputnik in October of 1957. I
was a first-grader that year and even then interested in science
so I thought it was exciting but at that age, I wasn't sure why
all the adults were so upset about it.

	Needless to say, it didn't take but a couple of years to
begin to understand why this was not a good thing for the
Western world or was it?

	I am not praising the Russians, here, but that little
24-inch aluminum ball with 4 antennas that produced a pulsating
signal that amateur radio operators and other observers received
the world over, scared the living daylights out of the West and
spurred the United states to pledge to land a man on the Moon by
1970.

	Grant it, that pledge came from John F. Kennedy in 1961
or 1962, but our space program had been, to use a racing
analogy, burning rubber, to get started since 1957.

	Of course, we did it, but that is not my point.

	All through the sixties, people of every level of
knowledge and educational background said it could not be done
for this or that reason, but we found a way, and that is my
point.

	Just look what a bunch of smart people can accomplish
when given a goal and when worried enough about the consequences
of not reaching that goal.

	If we want to improve the condition of man kind, we are
going to have to have more big science projects with definable
goals, not less.

	That crime against humanity known as the Gulf oil spill
accentuates the fact that it is getting more and more difficult
to find the energy sources that keep our present world running.

	I think that is far more frightening than some country
across the sea telling us they will bury us as the Russian
leader said in the late fifties.

	Communism collapsed as a form of government but running
out of gas is a physical fact that no amount of political
activity can fix on its own. Yes, there is lots of oil still in
the ground and yes, we need to devise ways to get it, but one of
these days, we really will run out or it will be so difficult to
get out that it will cost more than the energy value recovered
from it.

	I have always thought of fossil fuel as sort of a
present from God or, one could say that it is like getting a bag
of money from one's parents. Either way, once it is gone, it is
gone. The only way to make it pay off is to invest it in
something that makes more money so we are assured of a perpetual
income.

	Right now, there is enough oil, gas and coal to give us
breathing room while we work on renewable sources of energy but
it will only get harder as fossil fuel gets harder and harder
to find.

	Energy research with a goal of exporting the surplus
should be our next man-on-the-Moon level project.

	It is probably too big and expensive for even the United
States to go it alone, but many countries together should be up
to the task.

	When I mentioned the word nuclear, several of you may
have gasped but there really is nuclear energy that is safe but
we aren't even sort of close to being able to use it yet.

	If you want to see it in action, look at the Sunlight or
feel its heat. So far, the only nuclear fusion that works in a
controlled manner is that which takes place in a star like our
Sun. Unfortunately, we have figured out how to make nuclear
fusion in an uncontrolled manner and that is called the hydrogen
bomb. If we ever figure out how to sustain fusion in a power
plant-style setting, we will have a source of energy that
doesn't produce nuclear waste that is hot for hundreds of
thousands of years and controlled fusion reactions just go out if something
goes wrong either by accident or on purpose.

	Projects like this and better ways to use Solar and
other forms of renewable energy will be astronomically expensive
but continuing as we are will be even more dangerous. If you
look at what appears to have happened to a few great
civilizations which flourished and then died in the past,
several of them appeared to have died because they could not
feed themselves any longer. The water dried up so farmers
couldn't grow food or they ran out of wood to burn. The end
usually saw the civilization end in disorder and military
conflict in which the survivors fought to the death over the
scraps and others just wandered off in to the jungle to who
knows what fate.

	The Apollo mission of 41 years ago was expensive and
controversial but we are still reaping the benefits of much of
that research in more ways than one can count. We know what we
can do if we put our minds and energy to a big project. It's
time for another one and this time, the goal is to figure out
something that works before we freeze, starve or blow each other
to kingdom come trying to get possession of the remaining oil wells.

Martin

From tvii at optonline.net  Wed Jul 21 18:03:48 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:03:48 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>

     It's funny because that crossed my mind as well yesterday.  Last year, I listened to parts of the rebroadcast of the mission from the NASA website.  I was only 2 years old at the time of the landing, so hearing the actual transmissions was quite interesting and impressive.

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Yesterday, I was thinking about the fact that it had
> been 41 years since Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. I was 17 that
> Summer and about to be a Senior in high school so it seemed to
> me that the space race between us and the Russians had been
> going on forever when, in fact, it lasted only about 12 years
> starting with the Soviet launch of Sputnik in October of 1957. I
> was a first-grader that year and even then interested in science
> so I thought it was exciting but at that age, I wasn't sure why
> all the adults were so upset about it.
> 
> 	Needless to say, it didn't take but a couple of years to
> begin to understand why this was not a good thing for the
> Western world or was it?
> 
> 	I am not praising the Russians, here, but that little
> 24-inch aluminum ball with 4 antennas that produced a pulsating
> signal that amateur radio operators and other observers received
> the world over, scared the living daylights out of the West and
> spurred the United states to pledge to land a man on the Moon by
> 1970.
> 
> 	Grant it, that pledge came from John F. Kennedy in 1961
> or 1962, but our space program had been, to use a racing
> analogy, burning rubber, to get started since 1957.
> 
> 	Of course, we did it, but that is not my point.
> 
> 	All through the sixties, people of every level of
> knowledge and educational background said it could not be done
> for this or that reason, but we found a way, and that is my
> point.
> 
> 	Just look what a bunch of smart people can accomplish
> when given a goal and when worried enough about the consequences
> of not reaching that goal.
> 
> 	If we want to improve the condition of man kind, we are
> going to have to have more big science projects with definable
> goals, not less.
> 
> 	That crime against humanity known as the Gulf oil spill
> accentuates the fact that it is getting more and more difficult
> to find the energy sources that keep our present world running.
> 
> 	I think that is far more frightening than some country
> across the sea telling us they will bury us as the Russian
> leader said in the late fifties.
> 
> 	Communism collapsed as a form of government but running
> out of gas is a physical fact that no amount of political
> activity can fix on its own. Yes, there is lots of oil still in
> the ground and yes, we need to devise ways to get it, but one of
> these days, we really will run out or it will be so difficult to
> get out that it will cost more than the energy value recovered
> from it.
> 
> 	I have always thought of fossil fuel as sort of a
> present from God or, one could say that it is like getting a bag
> of money from one's parents. Either way, once it is gone, it is
> gone. The only way to make it pay off is to invest it in
> something that makes more money so we are assured of a perpetual
> income.
> 
> 	Right now, there is enough oil, gas and coal to give us
> breathing room while we work on renewable sources of energy but
> it will only get harder as fossil fuel gets harder and harder
> to find.
> 
> 	Energy research with a goal of exporting the surplus
> should be our next man-on-the-Moon level project.
> 
> 	It is probably too big and expensive for even the United
> States to go it alone, but many countries together should be up
> to the task.
> 
> 	When I mentioned the word nuclear, several of you may
> have gasped but there really is nuclear energy that is safe but
> we aren't even sort of close to being able to use it yet.
> 
> 	If you want to see it in action, look at the Sunlight or
> feel its heat. So far, the only nuclear fusion that works in a
> controlled manner is that which takes place in a star like our
> Sun. Unfortunately, we have figured out how to make nuclear
> fusion in an uncontrolled manner and that is called the hydrogen
> bomb. If we ever figure out how to sustain fusion in a power
> plant-style setting, we will have a source of energy that
> doesn't produce nuclear waste that is hot for hundreds of
> thousands of years and controlled fusion reactions just go out if something
> goes wrong either by accident or on purpose.
> 
> 	Projects like this and better ways to use Solar and
> other forms of renewable energy will be astronomically expensive
> but continuing as we are will be even more dangerous. If you
> look at what appears to have happened to a few great
> civilizations which flourished and then died in the past,
> several of them appeared to have died because they could not
> feed themselves any longer. The water dried up so farmers
> couldn't grow food or they ran out of wood to burn. The end
> usually saw the civilization end in disorder and military
> conflict in which the survivors fought to the death over the
> scraps and others just wandered off in to the jungle to who
> knows what fate.
> 
> 	The Apollo mission of 41 years ago was expensive and
> controversial but we are still reaping the benefits of much of
> that research in more ways than one can count. We know what we
> can do if we put our minds and energy to a big project. It's
> time for another one and this time, the goal is to figure out
> something that works before we freeze, starve or blow each other
> to kingdom come trying to get possession of the remaining oil wells.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Jul 21 19:34:10 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:34:10 -0500
Subject: Remember Apollo 
Message-ID: <201007211834.o6LIYAjb072659@x.it.okstate.edu>

	In July of 1969, I had not yet taken the test for an
amateur radio license but I had a Halicrafter's SX100 general
coverage receiver which tuned from the start of the AM broadcast
band up to 34 MHZ. Most all the world's long-range wireless
communication was done between 3 and 30 MHZ, also known as HF so
there was a lot of things to hear.

	When there was a manned space flight, one could listen
to the NASA network which consisted of several short wave single
sideband transmitters that relayed voice and data to all the
tracking stations and ships that were involved in supporting the
flight.

	Average citizens were not really encouraged to listen to
those frequencies but they were not scrambled or encrypted so
the challenge was to find the frequency being used at the time.
NASA had numerous possible frequencies and kept changing them
frequently, not as some sinister plot, but because radio
conditions change as the Earth turns. Radio signals travel much
differently at night than during the day and during different
seasons of the year and at different times in the eleven-year
Solar cycle. This meant that if one finally found a frequency
carrying the voice communications to and from the space craft, it
would go away without warning some time later and we would have
to search some more.

	When things were going well, there really wasn't much
talk as everybody was busy doing his or her assigned task. One
could hear a droning sound which was telemetry data being sent
on the opposite sideband from that used by the voice traffic.
When they changed frequency, the drone and the voices would go
away or sometimes, the signal would just fade out as the day
progressed so it was a cat and mouse game.

	Another interesting thing to hear was RCA Communications
which was a company back then that handled broadcast feeds for
hire. They would station a reporter on the aircraft carrier that
was going to retrieve the astronauts from the water after
landing. The ship and RCA Communications's headquarters in New
York talked via single sideband and even used the sideband link
from the ship to send news reports and slow-scan television
stills back to New York.

	RCA was much easier to listen to as they tended to stay
on one pair of frequencies for longer periods of time and, if
you were listening, they would even say in plain English what
frequency they would next be on. Again, this was not meant for
the general public as broadcasting but we could all hear it just
fine.

	One of the most interesting RCA transmissions I heard
was around the time of the landing of Apollo 7 or so in the Fall
of 1968. I was waiting for the school bus to begin another day
of high school but was listening to the signal from the ship in
the mean time. New York asked the reporter on the ship to feed
general ship sounds back to them and he did. You could hear
activity on one of the flight decks, the voices of sailors doing
their work and occasional announcements over the public address
system for the ship. That's the closes I have ever been to a
working aircraft carrier so it was really neat to listen to. I
was really annoyed when the bus came down our street and it was
back to school for another day.

John Panarese writes:
>      It's funny because that crossed my mind as well yesterday.  Last 
> year, I listened to parts of the rebroadcast of the mission from the NASA 
> website.  I was only 2 years old at the time of the landing, so hearing 
> the actual transmissions was quite interesting and impressive.
> 
> Take Care

From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 21 20:20:25 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:20:25 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <20100721152025.ycni6gcs0o0w8g4w@webmail.iu.edu>

Martin, Amen to that!

Thank you for this message. I really liked what you have to say because 
it's ell thought out.

Mary

Quoting Martin McCormick <martin at x.it.okstate.edu>:

> 	Yesterday, I was thinking about the fact that it had
> been 41 years since Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. I was 17 that
> Summer and about to be a Senior in high school so it seemed to
> me that the space race between us and the Russians had been
> going on forever when, in fact, it lasted only about 12 years
> starting with the Soviet launch of Sputnik in October of 1957. I
> was a first-grader that year and even then interested in science
> so I thought it was exciting but at that age, I wasn't sure why
> all the adults were so upset about it.
>
> 	Needless to say, it didn't take but a couple of years to
> begin to understand why this was not a good thing for the
> Western world or was it?
>
> 	I am not praising the Russians, here, but that little
> 24-inch aluminum ball with 4 antennas that produced a pulsating
> signal that amateur radio operators and other observers received
> the world over, scared the living daylights out of the West and
> spurred the United states to pledge to land a man on the Moon by
> 1970.
>
> 	Grant it, that pledge came from John F. Kennedy in 1961
> or 1962, but our space program had been, to use a racing
> analogy, burning rubber, to get started since 1957.
>
> 	Of course, we did it, but that is not my point.
>
> 	All through the sixties, people of every level of
> knowledge and educational background said it could not be done
> for this or that reason, but we found a way, and that is my
> point.
>
> 	Just look what a bunch of smart people can accomplish
> when given a goal and when worried enough about the consequences
> of not reaching that goal.
>
> 	If we want to improve the condition of man kind, we are
> going to have to have more big science projects with definable
> goals, not less.
>
> 	That crime against humanity known as the Gulf oil spill
> accentuates the fact that it is getting more and more difficult
> to find the energy sources that keep our present world running.
>
> 	I think that is far more frightening than some country
> across the sea telling us they will bury us as the Russian
> leader said in the late fifties.
>
> 	Communism collapsed as a form of government but running
> out of gas is a physical fact that no amount of political
> activity can fix on its own. Yes, there is lots of oil still in
> the ground and yes, we need to devise ways to get it, but one of
> these days, we really will run out or it will be so difficult to
> get out that it will cost more than the energy value recovered
> from it.
>
> 	I have always thought of fossil fuel as sort of a
> present from God or, one could say that it is like getting a bag
> of money from one's parents. Either way, once it is gone, it is
> gone. The only way to make it pay off is to invest it in
> something that makes more money so we are assured of a perpetual
> income.
>
> 	Right now, there is enough oil, gas and coal to give us
> breathing room while we work on renewable sources of energy but
> it will only get harder as fossil fuel gets harder and harder
> to find.
>
> 	Energy research with a goal of exporting the surplus
> should be our next man-on-the-Moon level project.
>
> 	It is probably too big and expensive for even the United
> States to go it alone, but many countries together should be up
> to the task.
>
> 	When I mentioned the word nuclear, several of you may
> have gasped but there really is nuclear energy that is safe but
> we aren't even sort of close to being able to use it yet.
>
> 	If you want to see it in action, look at the Sunlight or
> feel its heat. So far, the only nuclear fusion that works in a
> controlled manner is that which takes place in a star like our
> Sun. Unfortunately, we have figured out how to make nuclear
> fusion in an uncontrolled manner and that is called the hydrogen
> bomb. If we ever figure out how to sustain fusion in a power
> plant-style setting, we will have a source of energy that
> doesn't produce nuclear waste that is hot for hundreds of
> thousands of years and controlled fusion reactions just go out if something
> goes wrong either by accident or on purpose.
>
> 	Projects like this and better ways to use Solar and
> other forms of renewable energy will be astronomically expensive
> but continuing as we are will be even more dangerous. If you
> look at what appears to have happened to a few great
> civilizations which flourished and then died in the past,
> several of them appeared to have died because they could not
> feed themselves any longer. The water dried up so farmers
> couldn't grow food or they ran out of wood to burn. The end
> usually saw the civilization end in disorder and military
> conflict in which the survivors fought to the death over the
> scraps and others just wandered off in to the jungle to who
> knows what fate.
>
> 	The Apollo mission of 41 years ago was expensive and
> controversial but we are still reaping the benefits of much of
> that research in more ways than one can count. We know what we
> can do if we put our minds and energy to a big project. It's
> time for another one and this time, the goal is to figure out
> something that works before we freeze, starve or blow each other
> to kingdom come trying to get possession of the remaining oil wells.
>
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From tvii at optonline.net  Wed Jul 21 21:20:57 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:20:57 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <201007211834.o6LIYAjb072659@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007211834.o6LIYAjb072659@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C8D9D337-EA96-4F5C-B13C-D49F67B70420@optonline.net>

Hi Martin,
      Thanks for that.  That is interesting stuff.  I really wish I had been old enough to have enjoyed all of that.  Undoubtedly, I would have found a way to catch some of the transmissions.

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On Jul 21, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	In July of 1969, I had not yet taken the test for an
> amateur radio license but I had a Halicrafter's SX100 general
> coverage receiver which tuned from the start of the AM broadcast
> band up to 34 MHZ. Most all the world's long-range wireless
> communication was done between 3 and 30 MHZ, also known as HF so
> there was a lot of things to hear.
> 
> 	When there was a manned space flight, one could listen
> to the NASA network which consisted of several short wave single
> sideband transmitters that relayed voice and data to all the
> tracking stations and ships that were involved in supporting the
> flight.
> 
> 	Average citizens were not really encouraged to listen to
> those frequencies but they were not scrambled or encrypted so
> the challenge was to find the frequency being used at the time.
> NASA had numerous possible frequencies and kept changing them
> frequently, not as some sinister plot, but because radio
> conditions change as the Earth turns. Radio signals travel much
> differently at night than during the day and during different
> seasons of the year and at different times in the eleven-year
> Solar cycle. This meant that if one finally found a frequency
> carrying the voice communications to and from the space craft, it
> would go away without warning some time later and we would have
> to search some more.
> 
> 	When things were going well, there really wasn't much
> talk as everybody was busy doing his or her assigned task. One
> could hear a droning sound which was telemetry data being sent
> on the opposite sideband from that used by the voice traffic.
> When they changed frequency, the drone and the voices would go
> away or sometimes, the signal would just fade out as the day
> progressed so it was a cat and mouse game.
> 
> 	Another interesting thing to hear was RCA Communications
> which was a company back then that handled broadcast feeds for
> hire. They would station a reporter on the aircraft carrier that
> was going to retrieve the astronauts from the water after
> landing. The ship and RCA Communications's headquarters in New
> York talked via single sideband and even used the sideband link
> from the ship to send news reports and slow-scan television
> stills back to New York.
> 
> 	RCA was much easier to listen to as they tended to stay
> on one pair of frequencies for longer periods of time and, if
> you were listening, they would even say in plain English what
> frequency they would next be on. Again, this was not meant for
> the general public as broadcasting but we could all hear it just
> fine.
> 
> 	One of the most interesting RCA transmissions I heard
> was around the time of the landing of Apollo 7 or so in the Fall
> of 1968. I was waiting for the school bus to begin another day
> of high school but was listening to the signal from the ship in
> the mean time. New York asked the reporter on the ship to feed
> general ship sounds back to them and he did. You could hear
> activity on one of the flight decks, the voices of sailors doing
> their work and occasional announcements over the public address
> system for the ship. That's the closes I have ever been to a
> working aircraft carrier so it was really neat to listen to. I
> was really annoyed when the bus came down our street and it was
> back to school for another day.
> 
> John Panarese writes:
>>     It's funny because that crossed my mind as well yesterday.  Last 
>> year, I listened to parts of the rebroadcast of the mission from the NASA 
>> website.  I was only 2 years old at the time of the landing, so hearing 
>> the actual transmissions was quite interesting and impressive.
>> 
>> Take Care
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Jul 21 22:07:18 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:07:18 +0100
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

I'm sorry to be a killjoy and all that. But I don't think that the waste of billions of Dollars of US tax-payer's money is much to be proud of.

On 21 Jul 2010, at 18:03, John Panarese wrote:

? It's funny because that crossed my mind as well yesterday.  Last year, I listened to parts of the rebroadcast of the mission from the NASA website.  I was only 2 years old at the time of the landing, so hearing the actual transmissions was quite interesting and impressive.

I think that we should be concentrating on solving our earthbound problems before we waste money on the exploration of space.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic and all that.  But other countries, (including the UK and Australia) are putting billions into international aid.  Sure, i don't dispute the US is making a contribution.  But my point here is that so many of even the US's own citizens are in hardship.

The US government is always shouting and screaming about how they are the world leaders, the world's most dominant super-opower.  OK, perhaps they are.  Then it's time they got their own house in order before venturing out into space.

Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Wed Jul 21 22:47:37 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:47:37 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
	<7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3DE7B18B-2E01-428D-AC88-BE20BD210CCF@optonline.net>

    All things considered on what the U.S. government wastes tax payer money on, the  moon landing missions and space exploration is the least of our problems.  I'd rather see the money spent on that than the wasteful health care and social programs that have proven time and time again not to work and cost far more to the economy than they are supposed to help.  At least, the space program has led to countless technological advances that have impacted all facets of every day life.  

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> I'm sorry to be a killjoy and all that. But I don't think that the waste of billions of Dollars of US tax-payer's money is much to be proud of.
> 
> On 21 Jul 2010, at 18:03, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? It's funny because that crossed my mind as well yesterday.  Last year, I listened to parts of the rebroadcast of the mission from the NASA website.  I was only 2 years old at the time of the landing, so hearing the actual transmissions was quite interesting and impressive.
> 
> I think that we should be concentrating on solving our earthbound problems before we waste money on the exploration of space.
> 
> Sorry to sound so pessimistic and all that.  But other countries, (including the UK and Australia) are putting billions into international aid.  Sure, i don't dispute the US is making a contribution.  But my point here is that so many of even the US's own citizens are in hardship.
> 
> The US government is always shouting and screaming about how they are the world leaders, the world's most dominant super-opower.  OK, perhaps they are.  Then it's time they got their own house in order before venturing out into space.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Jul 21 23:14:14 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:14:14 +0100
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <3DE7B18B-2E01-428D-AC88-BE20BD210CCF@optonline.net>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
	<7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3DE7B18B-2E01-428D-AC88-BE20BD210CCF@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <592184B9-744D-4933-B336-ACF7BA451FDF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 21 Jul 2010, at 22:47, John Panarese wrote:

? All things considered on what the U.S. government wastes tax payer money on, the  moon landing missions and space exploration is the least of our problems.  I'd rather see the money spent on that than the wasteful health care and social programs that have proven time and time again not to work and cost far more to the economy than they are supposed to help.  At least, the space program has led to countless technological advances that have impacted all facets of every day life.  

I don't want to get into an ideology debate here; this isn't the place. ;-) But with all due respect, administered properly which, clearly, yours haven't been in the past as I understand things, social programmes can be made to work.

You naturally perceive them projects doomed to failure from the start based on experience. And I understand that.

But you know, the British model works; whether you believe it or not.

If you'd like to continue this discussion off list I'd be more than happy to do so. But we're in serious danger of breeching policy rules here and I might get banned by the list owner. (just let him dare! ;-)).

But seriously, the space programme is a waste of money which should be spent on humanity, not the conquest of a realm which we would, ultimately, ruin in the same way as we are destroying our own little part of the universe.

Until we get our own house in order, and I'm talking on a global scale here, we have a darn nerve trying to conquer space.

I shan't comment further on list but if you want to continue this discussion, even though we're clearly opposites in terms of our very polarised views, feel free to email me. It's high time we caught up privately anyway as it's been centuries. :)

Lynne


From gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk  Wed Jul 21 23:50:20 2010
From: gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk (Gillian Hadley)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:50:20 +0100
Subject: Scanner programme for Win
Message-ID: <88627E40-68FE-4EA8-ACCB-78F76BDD994D@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>

Hello group

Does anybody know of a good way to scan print for Windows apart from K1000?

I like K1000 but I just cannot affordd the prioce of over 1000 pound for the programme.

I would use the Mac if I could. But I have the same scanner as the 1 ht Gordon had gtil the other day and I cannot afford t replace it just now.

it is so difficult for me beomhg bnlind and having problems with my fingers as well. K1000 was great but I only had a demo. Why do firms have to put a really high price on things?

I am writing this from Gordon and Lynnes ut I am going home now. I might see your messages when I get home.

Gillian


From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Jul 22 14:32:26 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:32:26 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <592184B9-744D-4933-B336-ACF7BA451FDF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
	<7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3DE7B18B-2E01-428D-AC88-BE20BD210CCF@optonline.net>
	<592184B9-744D-4933-B336-ACF7BA451FDF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100722093226.oygte8qx5ww4owow@webmail.iu.edu>

You know, Lynne, I do have to agree with John here. If we did find some 
health care or social reform programs that worked, it wouldn't be a 
waste of money. But as I visited space camp when I was a kid and am 
interested in this sort of thing, I do have to agree that if ti weren't 
for the space program, a lot of discoveries we have made to help 
humanity would not have been possible.

Here are some examples from an article I found, along with a link to 
that article:

DIGITAL IMAGING BREAST BIOPSY SYSTEM - The LORAD Stereo Guide Breast 
Biopsy system incorporates advanced Charge Coupled Devices (CCDs) as 
part of a digital camera system. The resulting device images breast 
tissue more clearly and efficiently. Known as stereotactic large-core 
needle biopsy, this nonsurgical system developed with Space Telescope 
Technology is less traumatic and greatly reduces the pain, scarring, 
radiation exposure, time, and money associated with surgical biopsies.

BREAST CANCER DETECTION - A solar cell sensor is positioned directly 
beneath x-ray film, and determines exactly when film has received 
sufficient radiation and has been exposed to optimum density. 
Associated electronic equipment then sends a signal to cut off the 
x-ray source. Reduction of mammography x-ray exposure reduces radiation 
hazard and doubles the number of patient exams per machine.

LASER ANGIOPLASTY - Laser angioplasty with a "cool" type of laser, 
caller an excimer laser, does not damage blood vessel walls and offers 
precise non-surgical cleanings of clogged arteries with extraordinary 
precision and fewer complications than in balloon angioplasty.

ULTRASOUND SKIN DAMAGE ASSESSMENT - Advanced instrument using NASA 
ultrasound technology enables immediate assessment of burn damage 
depth, improving patient treatment, and may save lives in serious burn 
cases.


http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

The article also makes good points about what else US consumers can 
waste their money on, and a lot more of it, too.

Another source is http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello John
>
> On 21 Jul 2010, at 22:47, John Panarese wrote:
>
> ? All things considered on what the U.S. government wastes tax payer
> money on, the  moon landing missions and space exploration is the
> least of our problems.  I'd rather see the money spent on that than
> the wasteful health care and social programs that have proven time
> and time again not to work and cost far more to the economy than they
> are supposed to help.  At least, the space program has led to
> countless technological advances that have impacted all facets of
> every day life.
>
> I don't want to get into an ideology debate here; this isn't the
> place. ;-) But with all due respect, administered properly which,
> clearly, yours haven't been in the past as I understand things,
> social programmes can be made to work.
>
> You naturally perceive them projects doomed to failure from the start
> based on experience. And I understand that.
>
> But you know, the British model works; whether you believe it or not.
>
> If you'd like to continue this discussion off list I'd be more than
> happy to do so. But we're in serious danger of breeching policy rules
> here and I might get banned by the list owner. (just let him dare!
> ;-)).
>



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Jul 22 15:24:01 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:24:01 +0100
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <20100722093226.oygte8qx5ww4owow@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <201007211555.o6LFtcdb071353@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2E055F16-7524-441E-8F33-3F42B38D3010@optonline.net>
	<7EAC54CD-1F73-4553-A531-2FC3487F2F34@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3DE7B18B-2E01-428D-AC88-BE20BD210CCF@optonline.net>
	<592184B9-744D-4933-B336-ACF7BA451FDF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100722093226.oygte8qx5ww4owow@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <8D6FAFF5-B7BA-467A-B1BD-67DFC74074B9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

I can sort of see both sides of this.  As Americans, I know that socialism is basically alien to your way of thinking. Hence John's opposition to it.  I understand that, and I respect his views as, I'm sure, does Lynne.

On the flip side, I also see the scientific side and the usefulness of the space project.  It's used for scientific experimentation as much as anything else.

But there is a commercial side to this as well and, as I pointed out to Lynne last night, were it not for space programmes, we wouldn't be watching satellite television as we do almost every night.  Something has to be used to get those birds up into orbit and space crafts would seem to be the only way of doing it.

When Lynne and I discussed this last night, she ended the conversation as she went into the bathroom before bed, by saying that the only reason the American government wants to continue the space race, which is what it is even now, is prestige.  The Russians and, nowadays, the Chinese are both also spending money on their own space programmes.

I also see where Lynne is coming from when she talks about the poor, the needy and the deprived here on earth.

As she also said, this is not the place to get into a social or ideological debate.  But it seems to me, having experienced severe health issues myself and having seen others in my family do so that, before we start throwing money at space programmes, planet earth's inhabitants should be the number 1 priority.

Again, I understand why the Americans on list are so against socialism.  It's alien to American culture and, therefore, it's always going to be something that you don't agree with in principle.

But let me just ask you this as a parting question.  Other than the prestige of being able to sing about how the Americans were the first to put a man on the moon back in 1969, what actual benefit has that landing on the moon brought to humanity?  I for one can't think of a single one just at the moment other than it may have increased our understanding of how the solar system is evolving and how conditions on our only natural satellite are changing.

Gordon

On 22 Jul 2010, at 14:32, Mary Stores wrote:

You know, Lynne, I do have to agree with John here. If we did find some health care or social reform programs that worked, it wouldn't be a waste of money. But as I visited space camp when I was a kid and am interested in this sort of thing, I do have to agree that if ti weren't for the space program, a lot of discoveries we have made to help humanity would not have been possible.

Here are some examples from an article I found, along with a link to that article:

DIGITAL IMAGING BREAST BIOPSY SYSTEM - The LORAD Stereo Guide Breast Biopsy system incorporates advanced Charge Coupled Devices (CCDs) as part of a digital camera system. The resulting device images breast tissue more clearly and efficiently. Known as stereotactic large-core needle biopsy, this nonsurgical system developed with Space Telescope Technology is less traumatic and greatly reduces the pain, scarring, radiation exposure, time, and money associated with surgical biopsies.

BREAST CANCER DETECTION - A solar cell sensor is positioned directly beneath x-ray film, and determines exactly when film has received sufficient radiation and has been exposed to optimum density. Associated electronic equipment then sends a signal to cut off the x-ray source. Reduction of mammography x-ray exposure reduces radiation hazard and doubles the number of patient exams per machine.

LASER ANGIOPLASTY - Laser angioplasty with a "cool" type of laser, caller an excimer laser, does not damage blood vessel walls and offers precise non-surgical cleanings of clogged arteries with extraordinary precision and fewer complications than in balloon angioplasty.

ULTRASOUND SKIN DAMAGE ASSESSMENT - Advanced instrument using NASA ultrasound technology enables immediate assessment of burn damage depth, improving patient treatment, and may save lives in serious burn cases.


http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

The article also makes good points about what else US consumers can waste their money on, and a lot more of it, too.

Another source is http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello John
> 
> On 21 Jul 2010, at 22:47, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? All things considered on what the U.S. government wastes tax payer
> money on, the  moon landing missions and space exploration is the
> least of our problems.  I'd rather see the money spent on that than
> the wasteful health care and social programs that have proven time
> and time again not to work and cost far more to the economy than they
> are supposed to help.  At least, the space program has led to
> countless technological advances that have impacted all facets of
> every day life.
> 
> I don't want to get into an ideology debate here; this isn't the
> place. ;-) But with all due respect, administered properly which,
> clearly, yours haven't been in the past as I understand things,
> social programmes can be made to work.
> 
> You naturally perceive them projects doomed to failure from the start
> based on experience. And I understand that.
> 
> But you know, the British model works; whether you believe it or not.
> 
> If you'd like to continue this discussion off list I'd be more than
> happy to do so. But we're in serious danger of breeching policy rules
> here and I might get banned by the list owner. (just let him dare!
> ;-)).
> 


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Jul 22 17:02:53 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:02:53 -0500
Subject: Remember Apollo 
Message-ID: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>

I am going to stick strictly to technology, here, but I must
respond.

	Other than word of mouth, how do we know that climate is
changing on Earth? We have weather satellites among many other
tools which send picture after picture in visible and infrared
light day after day and year after year. Other satellites can
measure the hight of the polar ice caps to the inch or
centimeter so we know if they are really shrinking and by how
much. How did we learn the way to launch those satellites in to
space in an almost routine manner?

	Weather forecasts are many times better today than ever
before because the satellites are like having observers in all
the out-of-the-way places at once, giving us an overview of the
Earth. All those data feed monster supercomputers which run
bamoth equations that are getting closer and closer to
correctly modeling weather behavior which makes forecasting more
accurate.

	We are all sitting, standing or lying here reading
these messages which come to each of us over the internet which
used to be called the arpanet. ARPA stood for Advanced Research
Projects Agency and later became the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency. That is about as military and expensive as
things get and look where it lead and is leading.

	One can not draw a straight line from knowledge learned
in space research to the Velcro fasteners on a back pack or
diaper or to the pinhead-sized hearing aid in one's ear, but a
lot of what we take for granted today came from that effort.
Those in-ear thermometers that read your temperature in a couple
of seconds use space technology to see right through your ear
drum and look at the millimeter-wave glow that radiates off the
corotted artery that brings blood to the brain. All warm objects
including us glow in the millimeter waves and the space program
made us learn how to use that technology.

	If you want to read a 200-year-old version of the space
race, read the book "Longitude" about an Englishman named John
Harrison who spent most of his adult life single-handedly
building a very accurate clock or actually a couple of very
accurate clocks in order to win a prize of ten-thousand Pounds
to anybody who first figured out how to calculate one's
longitude. It all came down to accurate time keeping and made
modern navigation possible. Now pick up your Iphone and activate
the GPS receiver. Every one of those 24 satellites contains an
atomic clock courtesy of space research and the ability to
pinpoint your location anywhere on Earth to less than ten meters
comes from those clocks and that research.

Martin

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Jul 22 17:24:05 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:24:05 -0500
Subject: Remember Apollo 
Message-ID: <201007221624.o6MGO5MC079444@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Excellent, Mary.

	An English gentleman once asked Ben Franklin what was
the use of some particular discovery he had made. His response
was, "Of what use is a new born baby?"

	I promise to take the rest of this to the just-chat
list.

Martin

Mary Stores writes:
> You know, Lynne, I do have to agree with John here. If we did find some
> health care or social reform programs that worked, it wouldn't be a waste
> of money. But as I visited space camp when I was a kid and am interested 
> in
> this sort of thing, I do have to agree that if ti weren't for the space
> program, a lot of discoveries we have made to help humanity would not have
> been possible.

From tvii at optonline.net  Thu Jul 22 18:28:57 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:28:57 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <0189A164-19C6-417B-858B-358D188CAABB@optonline.net>

Hi Martin,
     That was my original point, though I'm afraid I was a bit blunt.  Basically, I hear people talk about the "waste of money" the space program is and how it can be best spent on other things, yet they never stop to think exactly what society has gained because of NASA's efforts and military advances.  How it cascades down to all facets of life is something few people stop to consider.  Note that I can only speak of the U.S., though I know several people who live in the UK and other parts of Europe who have said the same things to me.  That is  I'd rather have the money spent on that than reckless social programs that have increased in tax payer amounts, but have continuously failed.  What is that expression about insanity being something you do over and over again and keep failing at?

Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On Jul 22, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> I am going to stick strictly to technology, here, but I must
> respond.
> 
> 	Other than word of mouth, how do we know that climate is
> changing on Earth? We have weather satellites among many other
> tools which send picture after picture in visible and infrared
> light day after day and year after year. Other satellites can
> measure the hight of the polar ice caps to the inch or
> centimeter so we know if they are really shrinking and by how
> much. How did we learn the way to launch those satellites in to
> space in an almost routine manner?
> 
> 	Weather forecasts are many times better today than ever
> before because the satellites are like having observers in all
> the out-of-the-way places at once, giving us an overview of the
> Earth. All those data feed monster supercomputers which run
> bamoth equations that are getting closer and closer to
> correctly modeling weather behavior which makes forecasting more
> accurate.
> 
> 	We are all sitting, standing or lying here reading
> these messages which come to each of us over the internet which
> used to be called the arpanet. ARPA stood for Advanced Research
> Projects Agency and later became the Defense Advanced Research
> Projects Agency. That is about as military and expensive as
> things get and look where it lead and is leading.
> 
> 	One can not draw a straight line from knowledge learned
> in space research to the Velcro fasteners on a back pack or
> diaper or to the pinhead-sized hearing aid in one's ear, but a
> lot of what we take for granted today came from that effort.
> Those in-ear thermometers that read your temperature in a couple
> of seconds use space technology to see right through your ear
> drum and look at the millimeter-wave glow that radiates off the
> corotted artery that brings blood to the brain. All warm objects
> including us glow in the millimeter waves and the space program
> made us learn how to use that technology.
> 
> 	If you want to read a 200-year-old version of the space
> race, read the book "Longitude" about an Englishman named John
> Harrison who spent most of his adult life single-handedly
> building a very accurate clock or actually a couple of very
> accurate clocks in order to win a prize of ten-thousand Pounds
> to anybody who first figured out how to calculate one's
> longitude. It all came down to accurate time keeping and made
> modern navigation possible. Now pick up your Iphone and activate
> the GPS receiver. Every one of those 24 satellites contains an
> atomic clock courtesy of space research and the ability to
> pinpoint your location anywhere on Earth to less than ten meters
> comes from those clocks and that research.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Jul 23 20:33:33 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:33:33 +0100
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <0189A164-19C6-417B-858B-358D188CAABB@optonline.net>
References: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<0189A164-19C6-417B-858B-358D188CAABB@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <993A0DBA-AA70-487C-9E48-C2F9EC6CCCBD@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello John

On 22 Jul 2010, at 18:28, John Panarese wrote:

? Basically, I hear people talk about the "waste of money" the space program is and how it can be best spent on other things, yet they never stop to think exactly what society has gained because of NASA's efforts and military advances.  How it cascades down to all facets of life is something few people stop to consider.  Note that I can only speak of the U.S., though I know several people who live in the UK and other parts of Europe who have said the same things to me.  That is  I'd rather have the money spent on that than reckless social programs that have increased in tax payer amounts, but have continuously failed.  What is that expression about insanity being something you do over and over again and keep failing at?

No, John. It's not the entire space programme I object too. Just the parts of it which really do have no purpose, such as putting men on the moon.

I did indeed stop to think, as you put it, of the benefits of other areas of the programme.

Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Fri Jul 23 21:11:06 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:11:06 -0400
Subject: Remember Apollo
In-Reply-To: <993A0DBA-AA70-487C-9E48-C2F9EC6CCCBD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<0189A164-19C6-417B-858B-358D188CAABB@optonline.net>
	<993A0DBA-AA70-487C-9E48-C2F9EC6CCCBD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AC7175B7-1B1F-4E80-8ABB-5EFC5A359569@optonline.net>

    Unfortunately, , you are looking at a  a catch 22.  Without the program to land men on the moon, NASA would not have gotten the funding.  Without the desire for space travel, there would be no technological advances.  Basically, NASA's primary mission has been space exploration, despite the holding pattern it has been in over the last 30 years.  How much information we glean about the solar system and beyond directly effects our knowledge about this planet.

     So, you can't part and parcel what is "important" spending.  To me, and, of course, I preface this with the disclaimer that this is a matter of my personal opinion, it's all worth the money.  Again, I see far more benefits for the future and what it means to the world than tossing the money out the window as is happening all too often in current administrations on programs that have no impact and, in effect, causes government dependency and lack of personal responsibility and lack of motivation.  However, we now cross far astray from the purpose of this list, so I won't say any more on that topic.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, tvii at optonline.net
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com

AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED


AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT

On Jul 23, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> On 22 Jul 2010, at 18:28, John Panarese wrote:
> 
> ? Basically, I hear people talk about the "waste of money" the space program is and how it can be best spent on other things, yet they never stop to think exactly what society has gained because of NASA's efforts and military advances.  How it cascades down to all facets of life is something few people stop to consider.  Note that I can only speak of the U.S., though I know several people who live in the UK and other parts of Europe who have said the same things to me.  That is  I'd rather have the money spent on that than reckless social programs that have increased in tax payer amounts, but have continuously failed.  What is that expression about insanity being something you do over and over again and keep failing at?
> 
> No, John. It's not the entire space programme I object too. Just the parts of it which really do have no purpose, such as putting men on the moon.
> 
> I did indeed stop to think, as you put it, of the benefits of other areas of the programme.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Jul 23 22:52:20 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 22:52:20 +0100
Subject: Socialism Versus Conservatism;
	[off topic now] [Was Re: Remember Apollo]
In-Reply-To: <AC7175B7-1B1F-4E80-8ABB-5EFC5A359569@optonline.net>
References: <201007221602.o6MG2rN6079304@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<0189A164-19C6-417B-858B-358D188CAABB@optonline.net>
	<993A0DBA-AA70-487C-9E48-C2F9EC6CCCBD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<AC7175B7-1B1F-4E80-8ABB-5EFC5A359569@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <D2BE9830-BB33-4BC3-8027-C20B3F71B37B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi John

I'm not going to write in detail here because this discussion is now clearly way off the topic of this list.

I'm just going to add my voice to that of my wife, when I say I disagree with your perspective.

You are, it goes without saying, perfectly entitles to your view.  I'm sure you will equally respect our right to ours.

I'd be more than happy to discuss the moral and social ethics with you, but not here.

May I ask that we please move this thread off this list and discuss it, if you would like too, either privately or on the Just-Chat list.

But please be aware that, as I do everybody on this group, I respect your views.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Jul 24 13:10:35 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:10:35 +0100
Subject: Goodman's Smart-Talk Digital TV
Message-ID: <B4BB2385-FC6D-4154-A648-F7C081A7B402@tft-bbs.co.uk>

hello all

I will be taking delivery of my set-top box in early August.  So when it arrives I will do a podcast of the setup and walk through all the menus and guides with speech so that the listener, (if there are any), can get an idea of how it all fits together.

The price is quite reasonable as well actually, under a hundred quid.

Gordon



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Jul 25 14:10:52 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:10:52 +1000
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp
Message-ID: <454C3138-7B26-422F-98B6-5AB63A7E806C@internode.on.net>

Hi!

For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8

It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording goes for just under 6 minutes.

For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jul 26 15:53:21 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:53:21 -0500
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
Message-ID: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Very good recording. That is the first time I have ever heard
digital AM. 

	My own personal opinion is that AM radio in the United
States is dead. Oh, sure, you hear lots of signals from one end
of the AM broadcast band to the other and many of them have
digital feeds but one gets the impression that AM is now more or less
a back water. We have mostly "news talk," which, in the United
States, is synonymous with right-wing reactionary wacko talk.
Then there is sports talk which is endless chatter about, could
it be? YES! sports, but without the actual sports, just talking
about them. Then we do also have real honest-to-goodness sports
broadcasts such as actual games from whatever sports season is
in effect at the time. This makes a certain degree of sense as
AM signals travel far at night so ex patriots or just fans of a
given college or pro team can get their game right from the
source at least at night.

	Still, AM in North America is awful during the day and
down-right useless after Sundown as so many stations share each
channel that one just hears a cacophony of racket on each
frequency. 

	A few die-hard AM stations are still playing music, but
not many any more.

	North American countries which basically means the
United States, Canada and Mexico have agreements which
coordinate frequencies and power levels so as to minimize
harmful interference but you can only do so much to cram so
many stations in to a finite amount of spectrum space.

	The United State had several AM frequencies designated
as "clear channel" frequencies, not to be confused with the
company named Clear Channel Communications.

	The clear channel frequencies were to be free of sharing
by stations that would cause interference so that people all
across the US could hear, say, WLS in Chicago on 890 KHZ or KOMA
on 1520 from Oklahoma City. There were several other clear
channel frequencies such as 1120 for KMOX in St. Louis and many
more.

	During the eighties, the Reagan administration modified
the clear channel rules to cram in a few more stations so that
nowadays, most AM frequencies are just full of confused jumbled
signals after dark.

	We probably don't need AM like we used to and the
profusion of switching power supplies such as are in computers
and lots of other things these days has put lots of growls and
whistles in to the AM band so it is a pretty second-rate
experience. Except for nostalgia, I don't think anybody here
would really miss it that much.

Martin

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Hi!
> 
> For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this 
> at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8
> 
> It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so 
> quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording 
> goes for just under 6 minutes.
> 
> For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP 
> and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 26 16:05:59 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:05:59 +1000
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
In-Reply-To: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <E3169261-4704-4B9E-BCDC-4FFE527CACA2@internode.on.net>

Thanks for this informative post.

Its one of my hobbies AM DX radio listening and I know that others on this list despise me for it <smile>.  In Australia we have still a fairly good AM band and I'll rant about that in a moment but first a few comments on your AM band.

From what I've heard any DX listening has ben pretty much ruined once and for all in your country by HD Radio which uses data streams as part of the AM signal so that when you're tuning around the band you get the sound similar to a 56K modem all around the place is that right? If that's the case then that would absolutely infuriate me when I was trying to listen to something long distance.  In Australia we're using the DAB+ digital standard which has nothing whatever to do with the AM broadcast band though there is talk of using DRM in the future, DRM is similar to HD Radio but its an open source standard.  The theory behind DRM as part of an AM transmission is that if the digital signal becomes weak then the receiver can drop back to the standard AM broadcast signal, fair enough I suppose given that people travel long distances in cars and so on, we'll just have to wait to see what happens on that one.

Don't give your AM broadcast band up for dead quite yet though, sometimes at night I receive the best Newstalk station in the whole of the universe, that being KNX, I think its a 50KW transmitter is that right? Most of the AM stations out here are 2,000, 5,000 or 10,000KW though some are required to turn their power down after sunset, I know of a 10,000KW station in Brisbane Queensland about a thousand miles away from me, the transmitter power is 10,000KW during the day but that's halved at nighttime but yet I can still receive it if I play with my aerial tuner, I can completely null out the local station transmitting on the same frequency and the transmitter is only a matter of miles up the road, pretty impressive.


On 27/07/2010, at 12:53 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Very good recording. That is the first time I have ever heard
> digital AM. 
> 
> 	My own personal opinion is that AM radio in the United
> States is dead. Oh, sure, you hear lots of signals from one end
> of the AM broadcast band to the other and many of them have
> digital feeds but one gets the impression that AM is now more or less
> a back water. We have mostly "news talk," which, in the United
> States, is synonymous with right-wing reactionary wacko talk.
> Then there is sports talk which is endless chatter about, could
> it be? YES! sports, but without the actual sports, just talking
> about them. Then we do also have real honest-to-goodness sports
> broadcasts such as actual games from whatever sports season is
> in effect at the time. This makes a certain degree of sense as
> AM signals travel far at night so ex patriots or just fans of a
> given college or pro team can get their game right from the
> source at least at night.
> 
> 	Still, AM in North America is awful during the day and
> down-right useless after Sundown as so many stations share each
> channel that one just hears a cacophony of racket on each
> frequency. 
> 
> 	A few die-hard AM stations are still playing music, but
> not many any more.
> 
> 	North American countries which basically means the
> United States, Canada and Mexico have agreements which
> coordinate frequencies and power levels so as to minimize
> harmful interference but you can only do so much to cram so
> many stations in to a finite amount of spectrum space.
> 
> 	The United State had several AM frequencies designated
> as "clear channel" frequencies, not to be confused with the
> company named Clear Channel Communications.
> 
> 	The clear channel frequencies were to be free of sharing
> by stations that would cause interference so that people all
> across the US could hear, say, WLS in Chicago on 890 KHZ or KOMA
> on 1520 from Oklahoma City. There were several other clear
> channel frequencies such as 1120 for KMOX in St. Louis and many
> more.
> 
> 	During the eighties, the Reagan administration modified
> the clear channel rules to cram in a few more stations so that
> nowadays, most AM frequencies are just full of confused jumbled
> signals after dark.
> 
> 	We probably don't need AM like we used to and the
> profusion of switching power supplies such as are in computers
> and lots of other things these days has put lots of growls and
> whistles in to the AM band so it is a pretty second-rate
> experience. Except for nostalgia, I don't think anybody here
> would really miss it that much.
> 
> Martin
> 
> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Hi!
>> 
>> For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this 
>> at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8
>> 
>> It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so 
>> quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording 
>> goes for just under 6 minutes.
>> 
>> For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP 
>> and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Jul 26 16:24:38 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:24:38 +0100
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
In-Reply-To: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <9EAF8F42-616E-4439-9485-1ED1EA4D2B0B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

Digital radio here, from memory, uses 174 through 210 MhZ rather than AM.  I'm not getting into the argument about which is best, or which format is best.  All I'm going to say here is that DAB broadcasts from those stations which use high sample rates can sound darn good if you have the right audio equipment to listen to them with.

I agree with you though about AM.  I don't think that's the place for music radio, digital or analog because of the propagation.

So many stations in different regions share frequencies, as you say.  And you can get a het affect or a fading affect which would, I would think, do nothing good for digital transmissions.

But again I'm not going to get into an argument.  There are still music stations over here broadcasting in AM between 1 KhZ and about 1.5 KhZ from memory.  I may be wrong about the top end.  But music stations there are becoming fewer and fewer as stations migrate to digital only.

Given that each transponder can handle several multiplexers, and each multiplexer can handle up to 6 DAB transmissions, I don't think they're likely to run short of space for some time.

On DAB over here we have music, new and sports stations.  People, some people are calling DAB a flop.  I wonder why because the take-up is higher than anybody expected.   One can pick up a DAB portable receiver now for under ?30.00 GBP.  So it baffles me as to why people are saying it's a flop.  The vast majority of households now has at least 1 digital receiver according to sources I've seen.  Televisions are most all digital now, well in advance of the 2012 switch-over.  VCR stand-alones are virtually gone now from the shelves of retailers.  You can still buy them if you really look around.  I believe one or two of the supermarkets are still selling them.  But they're probably just old stock and it seems a little pointless buying them now anyway as analogue transmitters are being switched off gradually across the country.

Anyway I'm getting off topic.

Thinking back to when I was a kid, we only had 5 or 6 radio channels to choose from, and 3 TV channels.  Nowadays, thanks to the appearance of digital radio and TV, we have literally hundreds of each readily available.

What I do find odd though is that Sky TV have made it possible to listen to the BBC channels via their digibox without a viewing card inserted.  Bit many of the other supposedly free channels still require that an active current card be inserted.  So how they are free is beyond me.

Gordon

On 26 Jul 2010, at 15:53, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Very good recording. That is the first time I have ever heard
> digital AM. 
> 
> 	My own personal opinion is that AM radio in the United
> States is dead. Oh, sure, you hear lots of signals from one end
> of the AM broadcast band to the other and many of them have
> digital feeds but one gets the impression that AM is now more or less
> a back water. We have mostly "news talk," which, in the United
> States, is synonymous with right-wing reactionary wacko talk.
> Then there is sports talk which is endless chatter about, could
> it be? YES! sports, but without the actual sports, just talking
> about them. Then we do also have real honest-to-goodness sports
> broadcasts such as actual games from whatever sports season is
> in effect at the time. This makes a certain degree of sense as
> AM signals travel far at night so ex patriots or just fans of a
> given college or pro team can get their game right from the
> source at least at night.
> 
> 	Still, AM in North America is awful during the day and
> down-right useless after Sundown as so many stations share each
> channel that one just hears a cacophony of racket on each
> frequency. 
> 
> 	A few die-hard AM stations are still playing music, but
> not many any more.
> 
> 	North American countries which basically means the
> United States, Canada and Mexico have agreements which
> coordinate frequencies and power levels so as to minimize
> harmful interference but you can only do so much to cram so
> many stations in to a finite amount of spectrum space.
> 
> 	The United State had several AM frequencies designated
> as "clear channel" frequencies, not to be confused with the
> company named Clear Channel Communications.
> 
> 	The clear channel frequencies were to be free of sharing
> by stations that would cause interference so that people all
> across the US could hear, say, WLS in Chicago on 890 KHZ or KOMA
> on 1520 from Oklahoma City. There were several other clear
> channel frequencies such as 1120 for KMOX in St. Louis and many
> more.
> 
> 	During the eighties, the Reagan administration modified
> the clear channel rules to cram in a few more stations so that
> nowadays, most AM frequencies are just full of confused jumbled
> signals after dark.
> 
> 	We probably don't need AM like we used to and the
> profusion of switching power supplies such as are in computers
> and lots of other things these days has put lots of growls and
> whistles in to the AM band so it is a pretty second-rate
> experience. Except for nostalgia, I don't think anybody here
> would really miss it that much.
> 
> Martin
> 
> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Hi!
>> 
>> For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this 
>> at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8
>> 
>> It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so 
>> quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording 
>> goes for just under 6 minutes.
>> 
>> For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP 
>> and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 26 16:35:12 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:35:12 +1000
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
In-Reply-To: <9EAF8F42-616E-4439-9485-1ED1EA4D2B0B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<9EAF8F42-616E-4439-9485-1ED1EA4D2B0B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <41F7AF70-B85C-4346-8F0E-9FBAE47EC872@internode.on.net>

Was or is there an argument about which digital format was the best? If there is then I haven't heard it because it would seem to me at least that each has its own place or at least I think it does.  I've just been reading more about HD radio in the states, not only is it being used on the AM broadcast band but its also being used on the FM broadcast band, here HD radio is supposed to be able to give you high fidelity sound? Well only people who have heard it could answer that question <smile>.

I don't know about HD Radio on AM but I do know about DRM on the AM broadcast band having heard it for myself, music is fine though its not CD quality, I'd describe it as FM quality but given the fact that most AM stations even over here are talk then I don't think that's going to worry anyone.

What happens if the signal fades on a DRM receiver? The receiver switches to the analogue version until the digital signal is restored and I think the same thing happens with HD Radio receivers too for both FM and AM signals.


On 27/07/2010, at 1:24 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> Digital radio here, from memory, uses 174 through 210 MhZ rather than AM.  I'm not getting into the argument about which is best, or which format is best.  All I'm going to say here is that DAB broadcasts from those stations which use high sample rates can sound darn good if you have the right audio equipment to listen to them with.
> 
> I agree with you though about AM.  I don't think that's the place for music radio, digital or analog because of the propagation.
> 
> So many stations in different regions share frequencies, as you say.  And you can get a het affect or a fading affect which would, I would think, do nothing good for digital transmissions.
> 
> But again I'm not going to get into an argument.  There are still music stations over here broadcasting in AM between 1 KhZ and about 1.5 KhZ from memory.  I may be wrong about the top end.  But music stations there are becoming fewer and fewer as stations migrate to digital only.
> 
> Given that each transponder can handle several multiplexers, and each multiplexer can handle up to 6 DAB transmissions, I don't think they're likely to run short of space for some time.
> 
> On DAB over here we have music, new and sports stations.  People, some people are calling DAB a flop.  I wonder why because the take-up is higher than anybody expected.   One can pick up a DAB portable receiver now for under ?30.00 GBP.  So it baffles me as to why people are saying it's a flop.  The vast majority of households now has at least 1 digital receiver according to sources I've seen.  Televisions are most all digital now, well in advance of the 2012 switch-over.  VCR stand-alones are virtually gone now from the shelves of retailers.  You can still buy them if you really look around.  I believe one or two of the supermarkets are still selling them.  But they're probably just old stock and it seems a little pointless buying them now anyway as analogue transmitters are being switched off gradually across the country.
> 
> Anyway I'm getting off topic.
> 
> Thinking back to when I was a kid, we only had 5 or 6 radio channels to choose from, and 3 TV channels.  Nowadays, thanks to the appearance of digital radio and TV, we have literally hundreds of each readily available.
> 
> What I do find odd though is that Sky TV have made it possible to listen to the BBC channels via their digibox without a viewing card inserted.  Bit many of the other supposedly free channels still require that an active current card be inserted.  So how they are free is beyond me.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 26 Jul 2010, at 15:53, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> 	Very good recording. That is the first time I have ever heard
>> digital AM. 
>> 
>> 	My own personal opinion is that AM radio in the United
>> States is dead. Oh, sure, you hear lots of signals from one end
>> of the AM broadcast band to the other and many of them have
>> digital feeds but one gets the impression that AM is now more or less
>> a back water. We have mostly "news talk," which, in the United
>> States, is synonymous with right-wing reactionary wacko talk.
>> Then there is sports talk which is endless chatter about, could
>> it be? YES! sports, but without the actual sports, just talking
>> about them. Then we do also have real honest-to-goodness sports
>> broadcasts such as actual games from whatever sports season is
>> in effect at the time. This makes a certain degree of sense as
>> AM signals travel far at night so ex patriots or just fans of a
>> given college or pro team can get their game right from the
>> source at least at night.
>> 
>> 	Still, AM in North America is awful during the day and
>> down-right useless after Sundown as so many stations share each
>> channel that one just hears a cacophony of racket on each
>> frequency. 
>> 
>> 	A few die-hard AM stations are still playing music, but
>> not many any more.
>> 
>> 	North American countries which basically means the
>> United States, Canada and Mexico have agreements which
>> coordinate frequencies and power levels so as to minimize
>> harmful interference but you can only do so much to cram so
>> many stations in to a finite amount of spectrum space.
>> 
>> 	The United State had several AM frequencies designated
>> as "clear channel" frequencies, not to be confused with the
>> company named Clear Channel Communications.
>> 
>> 	The clear channel frequencies were to be free of sharing
>> by stations that would cause interference so that people all
>> across the US could hear, say, WLS in Chicago on 890 KHZ or KOMA
>> on 1520 from Oklahoma City. There were several other clear
>> channel frequencies such as 1120 for KMOX in St. Louis and many
>> more.
>> 
>> 	During the eighties, the Reagan administration modified
>> the clear channel rules to cram in a few more stations so that
>> nowadays, most AM frequencies are just full of confused jumbled
>> signals after dark.
>> 
>> 	We probably don't need AM like we used to and the
>> profusion of switching power supplies such as are in computers
>> and lots of other things these days has put lots of growls and
>> whistles in to the AM band so it is a pretty second-rate
>> experience. Except for nostalgia, I don't think anybody here
>> would really miss it that much.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan writes:
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this 
>>> at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8
>>> 
>>> It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so 
>>> quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording 
>>> goes for just under 6 minutes.
>>> 
>>> For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP 
>>> and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 26 16:59:41 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:59:41 +1000
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
In-Reply-To: <9EAF8F42-616E-4439-9485-1ED1EA4D2B0B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201007261453.o6QErLDA012458@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<9EAF8F42-616E-4439-9485-1ED1EA4D2B0B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <938BFD4B-D59F-45FE-9889-D2345A0A1A7E@internode.on.net>

As a footnote to digital radio in Australia, there are no plans to switch off the FM or AM broadcast bands at this time.  Digital Radio in the form of DAB+ has only been rolled out in the capital cities so you could say its a trial to see how people take to it, how digital radio performs and so on.

All our DAB+ stations are handled by 2 50KW transmitters on the top of Mount Dandenong, about 40 miles away from here.

As I understand it, there have been very few complaints in the capital city of Melbourne itself regarding DAB+ reception but as you'd expect reception becomes quite difficult when going out into the suburbs, some places receive it well whilst others you'd expect to receive it don't, some people can listen to it all the way from their work to the foot of their driveway at their home <smile> and even weather conditions seem to effect the reception.

I receive dAB+ well here though with my Roberts receiver I cannot go walking around my house and expect to get a constant signal, it keeps dropping out and that's the one problem with DAB+, if the signal's not strong then forget it, no sound so that's where DRM and HD Radio come into their own I guess <smile>.

Who knows what will happen because of the Federal Election here on 21 August but the plan was to have all the community stations up on DAB+ before the end of October.


On 27/07/2010, at 1:24 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Martin
> 
> Digital radio here, from memory, uses 174 through 210 MhZ rather than AM.  I'm not getting into the argument about which is best, or which format is best.  All I'm going to say here is that DAB broadcasts from those stations which use high sample rates can sound darn good if you have the right audio equipment to listen to them with.
> 
> I agree with you though about AM.  I don't think that's the place for music radio, digital or analog because of the propagation.
> 
> So many stations in different regions share frequencies, as you say.  And you can get a het affect or a fading affect which would, I would think, do nothing good for digital transmissions.
> 
> But again I'm not going to get into an argument.  There are still music stations over here broadcasting in AM between 1 KhZ and about 1.5 KhZ from memory.  I may be wrong about the top end.  But music stations there are becoming fewer and fewer as stations migrate to digital only.
> 
> Given that each transponder can handle several multiplexers, and each multiplexer can handle up to 6 DAB transmissions, I don't think they're likely to run short of space for some time.
> 
> On DAB over here we have music, new and sports stations.  People, some people are calling DAB a flop.  I wonder why because the take-up is higher than anybody expected.   One can pick up a DAB portable receiver now for under ?30.00 GBP.  So it baffles me as to why people are saying it's a flop.  The vast majority of households now has at least 1 digital receiver according to sources I've seen.  Televisions are most all digital now, well in advance of the 2012 switch-over.  VCR stand-alones are virtually gone now from the shelves of retailers.  You can still buy them if you really look around.  I believe one or two of the supermarkets are still selling them.  But they're probably just old stock and it seems a little pointless buying them now anyway as analogue transmitters are being switched off gradually across the country.
> 
> Anyway I'm getting off topic.
> 
> Thinking back to when I was a kid, we only had 5 or 6 radio channels to choose from, and 3 TV channels.  Nowadays, thanks to the appearance of digital radio and TV, we have literally hundreds of each readily available.
> 
> What I do find odd though is that Sky TV have made it possible to listen to the BBC channels via their digibox without a viewing card inserted.  Bit many of the other supposedly free channels still require that an active current card be inserted.  So how they are free is beyond me.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 26 Jul 2010, at 15:53, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> 	Very good recording. That is the first time I have ever heard
>> digital AM. 
>> 
>> 	My own personal opinion is that AM radio in the United
>> States is dead. Oh, sure, you hear lots of signals from one end
>> of the AM broadcast band to the other and many of them have
>> digital feeds but one gets the impression that AM is now more or less
>> a back water. We have mostly "news talk," which, in the United
>> States, is synonymous with right-wing reactionary wacko talk.
>> Then there is sports talk which is endless chatter about, could
>> it be? YES! sports, but without the actual sports, just talking
>> about them. Then we do also have real honest-to-goodness sports
>> broadcasts such as actual games from whatever sports season is
>> in effect at the time. This makes a certain degree of sense as
>> AM signals travel far at night so ex patriots or just fans of a
>> given college or pro team can get their game right from the
>> source at least at night.
>> 
>> 	Still, AM in North America is awful during the day and
>> down-right useless after Sundown as so many stations share each
>> channel that one just hears a cacophony of racket on each
>> frequency. 
>> 
>> 	A few die-hard AM stations are still playing music, but
>> not many any more.
>> 
>> 	North American countries which basically means the
>> United States, Canada and Mexico have agreements which
>> coordinate frequencies and power levels so as to minimize
>> harmful interference but you can only do so much to cram so
>> many stations in to a finite amount of spectrum space.
>> 
>> 	The United State had several AM frequencies designated
>> as "clear channel" frequencies, not to be confused with the
>> company named Clear Channel Communications.
>> 
>> 	The clear channel frequencies were to be free of sharing
>> by stations that would cause interference so that people all
>> across the US could hear, say, WLS in Chicago on 890 KHZ or KOMA
>> on 1520 from Oklahoma City. There were several other clear
>> channel frequencies such as 1120 for KMOX in St. Louis and many
>> more.
>> 
>> 	During the eighties, the Reagan administration modified
>> the clear channel rules to cram in a few more stations so that
>> nowadays, most AM frequencies are just full of confused jumbled
>> signals after dark.
>> 
>> 	We probably don't need AM like we used to and the
>> profusion of switching power supplies such as are in computers
>> and lots of other things these days has put lots of growls and
>> whistles in to the AM band so it is a pretty second-rate
>> experience. Except for nostalgia, I don't think anybody here
>> would really miss it that much.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan writes:
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> For those who are interested in radio history then you can download this 
>>> at http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/68mva8
>>> 
>>> It was recorded from a DAB+ tuner and its in FLAC lossless format so 
>>> quality should be good, file size is just under 29MB and the recording 
>>> goes for just under 6 minutes.
>>> 
>>> For those who want more? I have the last 24 hours of Melbourne Radio 3MP 
>>> and the first 24 hours of the station which replaced it, MTR1377
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jul 26 17:29:49 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:29:49 -0500
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
Message-ID: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Its one of my hobbies AM DX radio listening and I know that others on 
> this list despise me for it <smile>.  In Australia we have still a fairly 
> good AM band and I'll rant about that in a moment but first a few 
> comments on your AM band.
> 
> From what I've heard any DX listening has ben pretty much ruined once and 
> for all in your country by HD Radio which uses data streams as part of 
> the AM signal so that when you're tuning around the band you get the 
> sound similar to a 56K modem all around the place is that right? 

	It's not quite that bad. Where it is the worst is when
one is trying to hear a weak station that is one channel above
or below a very strong signal with the digital data. You hear a
hiss above and below the main carrier so one can tell there is
HD, but it only makes things slightly worse.

	The overcrowding ruins listening for DXing as well as
ordinary listening. The digital hiss is just the final nail in
the coffin.

	AM DX was very interesting again for a brief period a
few years ago when the AM broadcast band was expanded to 1700
KHZ. The navigation beacons went away and the first few AM
stations began populating the new frequencies between 1620 and
1700. One could hear low-powered AM stations with no competition
and I remember thinking that this is what it must have been like
in the early days of radio.

	Then, one soon discovered 2 and then 3 stations on the
same frequency and now the channels between 1620 and 1700 are
almost as congested as the rest of the band.

	Several years ago, there was a proposal to adopt the
same 9 KHZ channel separation in North America that the rest of
the world uses but the NAB or National Association of
Broadcasters shot down that idea.

	You may notice that I mention 1620 to 1700. The
frequency 1610 is kind of special in that this channel is used
for low-powered stations such as what one might find at public
events or special promotional situations. For a while, DFW
Airport in Dallas, TX had a transmitter that broadcast messages
to people who were visiting the airport telling them things they
needed to know about the bagage handling or mishandling system
and other services for travelers going through the airport.
Dallas is about 250 miles from Stillwater and I used to hear
that signal regularly.

	Real estate sales agencies have also used low-powered
transmitters on 1610 to broadcast loops of audio about a house
being shown. Members of the public are encouraged by signs to
listen to 1610 to hear the sales pitch.

	I still think that while AM DXing is interesting, the AM
broadcast band is kind of a relic of the past that is hard to
justify. Any time we have a line of thunderstorms here, the AM
band is so full of static that you can't hear a thing.

	Maybe the future of the AM band in North America might
look more like its past. Get rid of the thousands of low-power
stations that effectively jam each other in to unlistenability
and reestablish many more true clear-channel frequencies once
again with the idea, one day, of converting the whole band to
DRM.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Jul 26 18:12:38 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:12:38 -0500
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
Message-ID: <201007261712.o6QHCcaf013775@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I am sure not arguing about which digital format is
best. They all appear to work judging from what people around
the world say.

	Gordon Smith mentions the British digital radio at about
174 MHZ which is probably a very good frequency range for such
things. There was an idea floated in the US to use 76-83 MHZ for
a similar digital broadcasting service here to replace the AM
band but nobody seemed to get excited about the idea. To me, the
digital replacement for AM is fine, but 76-83 MHZ is still low
enough in frequency to suffer relatively frequent Sporadic E
events. I really expected the powers that be to make 174-216 MHZ
a digital radio band here but instead, they allowed the
television stations to use those channels for their digital
signals.

	The United States missed some golden opportunities when
we switched off analog television last year. We should not have
allowed a few television stations to still use 54-88 MHZ all be
it with digital signals, but that means that one can not as
easily reuse the frequencies for something else.

	Rather than trying to compromise an in-band, on-channel
digital radio solution as we did, it seems to me that we should
have started with a clean slate and developed the best digital
radio we could. It would eventually mean a more efficient use of
spectrum which is hard to come by in highly populated areas.

Martin

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 26 22:27:46 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:27:46 +1000
Subject: The last minutes of Melbourne Radio 3mp 
In-Reply-To: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C8E86397-A890-420D-A315-8B3AB057E4BB@internode.on.net>

Interesting about thunderstorm activity, I reckon that would send a DRM or HD Radio signal absolutely haywire <smile>.

We don't get all that much thunderstorm activity here but like you, when we get it and we try to listen to the AM band we know about it <smile>, pretty odd when you think about it because we're encouraged to listen to the radio for weather warnings and the like so thank Goodness for DAB+ in those situations <smile>.

Our extended broadcast band runs from 1602-1710KHZ and yes we use the 9KHZ system though a lot of engineers I've spoken to say we should go back to the 10KHZ system we used prior to late 1978.

Our "Event and information stations" are found at the bottom end of the FM broadcast band, from about 88.5 to 87.MHZ.


On 27/07/2010, at 2:29 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Its one of my hobbies AM DX radio listening and I know that others on 
>> this list despise me for it <smile>.  In Australia we have still a fairly 
>> good AM band and I'll rant about that in a moment but first a few 
>> comments on your AM band.
>> 
>> From what I've heard any DX listening has ben pretty much ruined once and 
>> for all in your country by HD Radio which uses data streams as part of 
>> the AM signal so that when you're tuning around the band you get the 
>> sound similar to a 56K modem all around the place is that right? 
> 
> 	It's not quite that bad. Where it is the worst is when
> one is trying to hear a weak station that is one channel above
> or below a very strong signal with the digital data. You hear a
> hiss above and below the main carrier so one can tell there is
> HD, but it only makes things slightly worse.
> 
> 	The overcrowding ruins listening for DXing as well as
> ordinary listening. The digital hiss is just the final nail in
> the coffin.
> 
> 	AM DX was very interesting again for a brief period a
> few years ago when the AM broadcast band was expanded to 1700
> KHZ. The navigation beacons went away and the first few AM
> stations began populating the new frequencies between 1620 and
> 1700. One could hear low-powered AM stations with no competition
> and I remember thinking that this is what it must have been like
> in the early days of radio.
> 
> 	Then, one soon discovered 2 and then 3 stations on the
> same frequency and now the channels between 1620 and 1700 are
> almost as congested as the rest of the band.
> 
> 	Several years ago, there was a proposal to adopt the
> same 9 KHZ channel separation in North America that the rest of
> the world uses but the NAB or National Association of
> Broadcasters shot down that idea.
> 
> 	You may notice that I mention 1620 to 1700. The
> frequency 1610 is kind of special in that this channel is used
> for low-powered stations such as what one might find at public
> events or special promotional situations. For a while, DFW
> Airport in Dallas, TX had a transmitter that broadcast messages
> to people who were visiting the airport telling them things they
> needed to know about the bagage handling or mishandling system
> and other services for travelers going through the airport.
> Dallas is about 250 miles from Stillwater and I used to hear
> that signal regularly.
> 
> 	Real estate sales agencies have also used low-powered
> transmitters on 1610 to broadcast loops of audio about a house
> being shown. Members of the public are encouraged by signs to
> listen to 1610 to hear the sales pitch.
> 
> 	I still think that while AM DXing is interesting, the AM
> broadcast band is kind of a relic of the past that is hard to
> justify. Any time we have a line of thunderstorms here, the AM
> band is so full of static that you can't hear a thing.
> 
> 	Maybe the future of the AM band in North America might
> look more like its past. Get rid of the thousands of low-power
> stations that effectively jam each other in to unlistenability
> and reestablish many more true clear-channel frequencies once
> again with the idea, one day, of converting the whole band to
> DRM.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Jul 26 22:32:32 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:32:32 +1000
Subject: Listening to long distance radio
In-Reply-To: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <B696B471-CBB4-4EED-A875-89F469CE08DC@internode.on.net>

We've discussed DRM a little? Its also being used on the Short Wave bands and I can see some potential here, assuming the signal is a strong one then we can say goodbye to fading and get reasonably good quality audio.

I still think there's a place for short wave broadcasting, you mark my words, the day will come when some major communications facility is knocked out and people will wonder how they can get a message from point A to point B over a large distance.

I was quite amazed to discover that there are still quite a few things to be heard on the short wave bands though nothing from the major broadcasters any more it seems such as the BBC and VOA, is that good? Well in a way it is yes because smaller broadcasters are popping up and I suspect that they'll probably do a far better job at serving their target listening audiences.

I also suspect that these short wave broadcasts are made available to those in developing countries as they probably cannot easily access the Internet and - even suppose they could - the band width would be too slow for audio streams.


On 27/07/2010, at 2:29 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> Its one of my hobbies AM DX radio listening and I know that others on 
>> this list despise me for it <smile>.  In Australia we have still a fairly 
>> good AM band and I'll rant about that in a moment but first a few 
>> comments on your AM band.
>> 
>> From what I've heard any DX listening has ben pretty much ruined once and 
>> for all in your country by HD Radio which uses data streams as part of 
>> the AM signal so that when you're tuning around the band you get the 
>> sound similar to a 56K modem all around the place is that right? 
> 
> 	It's not quite that bad. Where it is the worst is when
> one is trying to hear a weak station that is one channel above
> or below a very strong signal with the digital data. You hear a
> hiss above and below the main carrier so one can tell there is
> HD, but it only makes things slightly worse.
> 
> 	The overcrowding ruins listening for DXing as well as
> ordinary listening. The digital hiss is just the final nail in
> the coffin.
> 
> 	AM DX was very interesting again for a brief period a
> few years ago when the AM broadcast band was expanded to 1700
> KHZ. The navigation beacons went away and the first few AM
> stations began populating the new frequencies between 1620 and
> 1700. One could hear low-powered AM stations with no competition
> and I remember thinking that this is what it must have been like
> in the early days of radio.
> 
> 	Then, one soon discovered 2 and then 3 stations on the
> same frequency and now the channels between 1620 and 1700 are
> almost as congested as the rest of the band.
> 
> 	Several years ago, there was a proposal to adopt the
> same 9 KHZ channel separation in North America that the rest of
> the world uses but the NAB or National Association of
> Broadcasters shot down that idea.
> 
> 	You may notice that I mention 1620 to 1700. The
> frequency 1610 is kind of special in that this channel is used
> for low-powered stations such as what one might find at public
> events or special promotional situations. For a while, DFW
> Airport in Dallas, TX had a transmitter that broadcast messages
> to people who were visiting the airport telling them things they
> needed to know about the bagage handling or mishandling system
> and other services for travelers going through the airport.
> Dallas is about 250 miles from Stillwater and I used to hear
> that signal regularly.
> 
> 	Real estate sales agencies have also used low-powered
> transmitters on 1610 to broadcast loops of audio about a house
> being shown. Members of the public are encouraged by signs to
> listen to 1610 to hear the sales pitch.
> 
> 	I still think that while AM DXing is interesting, the AM
> broadcast band is kind of a relic of the past that is hard to
> justify. Any time we have a line of thunderstorms here, the AM
> band is so full of static that you can't hear a thing.
> 
> 	Maybe the future of the AM band in North America might
> look more like its past. Get rid of the thousands of low-power
> stations that effectively jam each other in to unlistenability
> and reestablish many more true clear-channel frequencies once
> again with the idea, one day, of converting the whole band to
> DRM.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 12:27:08 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 12:27:08 +0100
Subject: Listening to long distance radio
In-Reply-To: <B696B471-CBB4-4EED-A875-89F469CE08DC@internode.on.net>
References: <201007261629.o6QGTnYK013367@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<B696B471-CBB4-4EED-A875-89F469CE08DC@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <AB488291-AC4C-4319-A472-8A4691907916@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Amateur radio operators are still utilised, believe it or not Dane, when emergency situations come up.  Many earth quake disasters, plane crashes, weather-based disasters have been served for communications over long and short distance by amateur radio operators.

There is an international organisation called Raynet, (not sure if I spelled that right).  But it's members are all amateurs and they frequently conduct local and, occasionally, international exercises so that they are ready to deal with emergency situations when they arise.

Believe it or believe it not, amateurs have been found, on numerous occasions, to have the expertise and ability to quickly organise communication networks to facilitate good and effective communications where professionals have failed.  That's primarily because amateurs do that sort of thing day in, day out.  They use their equipment to communicate and experiment whereas the professionals just stick to hard and fast routines.

But sadly, the general public have a very misguided impression of amateur radio operators.  In many instances they see us as glorified CB operators.  Amateur radio is far far more than that.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if anybody interested in so-called "DX" were to get involved in, or learn some of the techniques that amateurs use, instead of just twiddling around and hoping for the best, they'd get far better results and much more enjoyment out of their hobby.

On 26 Jul 2010, at 22:32, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> We've discussed DRM a little? Its also being used on the Short Wave bands and I can see some potential here, assuming the signal is a strong one then we can say goodbye to fading and get reasonably good quality audio.
> 
> I still think there's a place for short wave broadcasting, you mark my words, the day will come when some major communications facility is knocked out and people will wonder how they can get a message from point A to point B over a large distance.
> 
> I was quite amazed to discover that there are still quite a few things to be heard on the short wave bands though nothing from the major broadcasters any more it seems such as the BBC and VOA, is that good? Well in a way it is yes because smaller broadcasters are popping up and I suspect that they'll probably do a far better job at serving their target listening audiences.
> 
> I also suspect that these short wave broadcasts are made available to those in developing countries as they probably cannot easily access the Internet and - even suppose they could - the band width would be too slow for audio streams.
> 
> 
> On 27/07/2010, at 2:29 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> Dane Trethowan writes:
>>> Its one of my hobbies AM DX radio listening and I know that others on 
>>> this list despise me for it <smile>.  In Australia we have still a fairly 
>>> good AM band and I'll rant about that in a moment but first a few 
>>> comments on your AM band.
>>> 
>>> From what I've heard any DX listening has ben pretty much ruined once and 
>>> for all in your country by HD Radio which uses data streams as part of 
>>> the AM signal so that when you're tuning around the band you get the 
>>> sound similar to a 56K modem all around the place is that right? 
>> 
>> 	It's not quite that bad. Where it is the worst is when
>> one is trying to hear a weak station that is one channel above
>> or below a very strong signal with the digital data. You hear a
>> hiss above and below the main carrier so one can tell there is
>> HD, but it only makes things slightly worse.
>> 
>> 	The overcrowding ruins listening for DXing as well as
>> ordinary listening. The digital hiss is just the final nail in
>> the coffin.
>> 
>> 	AM DX was very interesting again for a brief period a
>> few years ago when the AM broadcast band was expanded to 1700
>> KHZ. The navigation beacons went away and the first few AM
>> stations began populating the new frequencies between 1620 and
>> 1700. One could hear low-powered AM stations with no competition
>> and I remember thinking that this is what it must have been like
>> in the early days of radio.
>> 
>> 	Then, one soon discovered 2 and then 3 stations on the
>> same frequency and now the channels between 1620 and 1700 are
>> almost as congested as the rest of the band.
>> 
>> 	Several years ago, there was a proposal to adopt the
>> same 9 KHZ channel separation in North America that the rest of
>> the world uses but the NAB or National Association of
>> Broadcasters shot down that idea.
>> 
>> 	You may notice that I mention 1620 to 1700. The
>> frequency 1610 is kind of special in that this channel is used
>> for low-powered stations such as what one might find at public
>> events or special promotional situations. For a while, DFW
>> Airport in Dallas, TX had a transmitter that broadcast messages
>> to people who were visiting the airport telling them things they
>> needed to know about the bagage handling or mishandling system
>> and other services for travelers going through the airport.
>> Dallas is about 250 miles from Stillwater and I used to hear
>> that signal regularly.
>> 
>> 	Real estate sales agencies have also used low-powered
>> transmitters on 1610 to broadcast loops of audio about a house
>> being shown. Members of the public are encouraged by signs to
>> listen to 1610 to hear the sales pitch.
>> 
>> 	I still think that while AM DXing is interesting, the AM
>> broadcast band is kind of a relic of the past that is hard to
>> justify. Any time we have a line of thunderstorms here, the AM
>> band is so full of static that you can't hear a thing.
>> 
>> 	Maybe the future of the AM band in North America might
>> look more like its past. Get rid of the thousands of low-power
>> stations that effectively jam each other in to unlistenability
>> and reestablish many more true clear-channel frequencies once
>> again with the idea, one day, of converting the whole band to
>> DRM.
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> Dane Trethowan
> grtdane at internode.on.net
> 
> Mobile:/SMS +614571201
> Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
> MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
> skype: grtdane12
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 12:29:31 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 12:29:31 +0100
Subject: Goodman's Smart-Talk
Message-ID: <41558338-83CA-4F42-9C32-FA56E2A953F4@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

is anybody interested in this at all?  If so, I'll produce a podcast.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Jul 27 19:58:42 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:58:42 -0500
Subject: Goodman's Smart-Talk 
Message-ID: <201007271858.o6RIwgJv028841@x.it.okstate.edu>

What is it?

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Jul 27 20:41:47 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:41:47 -0500
Subject: Listening to long distance radio 
Message-ID: <201007271941.o6RJflj9029375@x.it.okstate.edu>

	The ARRL or American Radio Relay League has adopted the
slogan "When all else fails" to describe amateur radio's reason
to exist.

	Of course, we enjoy experimenting with technology or
as some would say just messing around with stuff to see what we
can get it to do, but the official justification for amateur
radio in all the countries that have it is to provide an
emergency communications network in times of natural or man-made
disaster.

	Most countries in the world do allow amateur radio
except for some bastions of enlightenment and free thought such
as the People's Republic of Korea and a few other places where
the rulers are afraid that people might think and start causing
trouble.

	Even during the hight of the Cold war, the Soviet Union
allowed lots of amateur radio activity. The Soviet Union did not
allow individual station setups in private homes, but amateur
radio or "Radio Sport," as it was called was quite a group
activity.

	During many disasters such as the terrorist attacks of
September 11 of 2001 and the bombing of the Federal office
building in Oklahoma City in 1995, cell phone service virtually
evaporated near the disaster sites. There probably was some
damage to infrastructure such as destroyed antennas or radio
equipment, but the biggest reason for the service interruptions
were the thousands of people all trying to use the network at
once.

	Amateur radio operations were set up at both disasters
and remained in operation until normal communications could
resume.

	The Oklahoma City bombing happened on April 19, 1995 and
the amateur radio presence did not stand down until some time in
June of that year.

	Amateur radio operators in China set up communications
equipment immediately after the Sech wan earthquake so this type
of response is not limited to Western nations by any means.

Martin

Gordon Smith writes:
> Amateur radio operators are still utilised, believe it or not Dane, when 
> emergency situations come up.  Many earth quake disasters, plane crashes, 
> weather-based disasters have been served for communications over long and 
> short distance by amateur radio operators.
> 
> There is an international organisation called Raynet, (not sure if I 
> spelled that right).  But it's members are all amateurs and they 
> frequently conduct local and, occasionally, international exercises so 
> that they are ready to deal with emergency situations when they arise.
> 
> Believe it or believe it not, amateurs have been found, on numerous 
> occasions, to have the expertise and ability to quickly organise 
> communication networks to facilitate good and effective communications 
> where professionals have failed.  That's primarily because amateurs do 
> that sort of thing day in, day out.  They use their equipment to 
> communicate and experiment whereas the professionals just stick to hard 
> and fast routines.
> 
> But sadly, the general public have a very misguided impression of amateur 
> radio operators.  In many instances they see us as glorified CB 
> operators.  Amateur radio is far far more than that.
> 
> In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if anybody interested in so-called 
> "DX" were to get involved in, or learn some of the techniques that 
> amateurs use, instead of just twiddling around and hoping for the best, 
> they'd get far better results and much more enjoyment out of their hobby.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 21:06:56 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:06:56 +0100
Subject: Goodman's Smart-Talk 
In-Reply-To: <201007271858.o6RIwgJv028841@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007271858.o6RIwgJv028841@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <477AF04C-085B-4F4C-9860-DC975EA609C2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

It's a talking digital set-top TV box.

On 27 Jul 2010, at 19:58, Martin McCormick wrote:

> What is it?
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 21:19:06 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:19:06 +0100
Subject: Listening to long distance radio 
In-Reply-To: <201007271941.o6RJflj9029375@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201007271941.o6RJflj9029375@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <520EA7C2-ADE8-4830-B086-31156DA6B3D8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

That's the beauty of amateur radio.  As well as bringing together people of different nationalities, it also helps in humanitarian situations such as you outline.  It is a most gratifying hobby to be involved in at times.

Listening to radio is something which always bored me silly.  Merely DX listening and glorying that I heard XYZ station just did nothing for me.  I'm the hands-on type of person, and sitting back listening just isn't any form of challenge.


I must get my HF equipment restored or replaced some time soon.  It is poorly, very much so.

I'm hoping it's just the silly ATU which has died, rather than the radio itself.

In terms of solid state equipment, it's quite a widely held view that the Kenwood TS850SD is amongst the finest pieces of radio design to be made commercially available.  That is a view I share.


On 27 Jul 2010, at 20:41, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	The ARRL or American Radio Relay League has adopted the
> slogan "When all else fails" to describe amateur radio's reason
> to exist.
> 
> 	Of course, we enjoy experimenting with technology or
> as some would say just messing around with stuff to see what we
> can get it to do, but the official justification for amateur
> radio in all the countries that have it is to provide an
> emergency communications network in times of natural or man-made
> disaster.
> 
> 	Most countries in the world do allow amateur radio
> except for some bastions of enlightenment and free thought such
> as the People's Republic of Korea and a few other places where
> the rulers are afraid that people might think and start causing
> trouble.
> 
> 	Even during the hight of the Cold war, the Soviet Union
> allowed lots of amateur radio activity. The Soviet Union did not
> allow individual station setups in private homes, but amateur
> radio or "Radio Sport," as it was called was quite a group
> activity.
> 
> 	During many disasters such as the terrorist attacks of
> September 11 of 2001 and the bombing of the Federal office
> building in Oklahoma City in 1995, cell phone service virtually
> evaporated near the disaster sites. There probably was some
> damage to infrastructure such as destroyed antennas or radio
> equipment, but the biggest reason for the service interruptions
> were the thousands of people all trying to use the network at
> once.
> 
> 	Amateur radio operations were set up at both disasters
> and remained in operation until normal communications could
> resume.
> 
> 	The Oklahoma City bombing happened on April 19, 1995 and
> the amateur radio presence did not stand down until some time in
> June of that year.
> 
> 	Amateur radio operators in China set up communications
> equipment immediately after the Sech wan earthquake so this type
> of response is not limited to Western nations by any means.
> 
> Martin
> 
> Gordon Smith writes:
>> Amateur radio operators are still utilised, believe it or not Dane, when 
>> emergency situations come up.  Many earth quake disasters, plane crashes, 
>> weather-based disasters have been served for communications over long and 
>> short distance by amateur radio operators.
>> 
>> There is an international organisation called Raynet, (not sure if I 
>> spelled that right).  But it's members are all amateurs and they 
>> frequently conduct local and, occasionally, international exercises so 
>> that they are ready to deal with emergency situations when they arise.
>> 
>> Believe it or believe it not, amateurs have been found, on numerous 
>> occasions, to have the expertise and ability to quickly organise 
>> communication networks to facilitate good and effective communications 
>> where professionals have failed.  That's primarily because amateurs do 
>> that sort of thing day in, day out.  They use their equipment to 
>> communicate and experiment whereas the professionals just stick to hard 
>> and fast routines.
>> 
>> But sadly, the general public have a very misguided impression of amateur 
>> radio operators.  In many instances they see us as glorified CB 
>> operators.  Amateur radio is far far more than that.
>> 
>> In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if anybody interested in so-called 
>> "DX" were to get involved in, or learn some of the techniques that 
>> amateurs use, instead of just twiddling around and hoping for the best, 
>> they'd get far better results and much more enjoyment out of their hobby.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From support at tft-bbs.com  Thu Jul 29 12:37:18 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:37:18 +0100
Subject: Quoting Messages in chains
Message-ID: <A08E7029-2AC6-4F36-9D98-434414D36D5F@tft-bbs.com>

Hello

We have just received notification that our business network provider is changing their terms and conditions.

They are now imposing a 100GB restriction on monthly traffic during what they call peak hours, 08:00 to 00:00 each day.

Therefore, may I ask that people please begin adhering a little more to list policy when it comes to quoting entire message chains.

So far, we have not rigidly enforced this.  But now, given this unfortunate change to our provider's package, this must be something we tighten up on.

So please all, just quote the most recent message in the thread when you're replying to something.  These little things all mount up, and you'll do everybody a favour by taking a little more care when you post.

This is in no way a reprimand for anybody, it is simply a request.

That request does exist in the list policy document which you were sent when you became a member of this group.

your cooperation will be very much appreciated.  I'm just as guilty as anybody, I too need to start tightening up a little.

Gordon


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Aug  4 18:54:52 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 03:54:52 +1000
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?=
Message-ID: <2C1984C3-095B-42EC-A7A3-E209B8CEF7EC@internode.on.net>

I've been waiting for more information on this subject for quite some time, I'm looking for different sorts of accessible mobile equipment and I personally think that the Android phones may be the way of the future mainly because of the price.  Nokia's s60 series of phones is next to dead and will be replaced within the next 12 months.  Windows Mobile, well need I even bring up the topic? <smile> Iphone? Yep very nice and I'm a proud owner of at least 1 but it would be nice to see the Iphone have some competition, as you can tell I'm one of those people who just don't go out and worship Iphone or anything else.

http://www.aisquared.com/blog/2010/07/android-accessibility-podcast/?utm_source=wordtwit



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Aug  4 21:58:17 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:58:17 -0500
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?= 
Message-ID: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>

The sense of the podcast is good in that this is promising but
not quite ready for prime time yet. I don't mind having to do
little tricks to get good things to happen but the problems that
exist with mail and simply turning on the screen reader as well
as the inability to install applications without sighted
assistance is a show stopper as far as I am concerned.

	Having said that, open source is potentially a torous
that will ultimately win the race but unless somebody
single-handedly fixes one of these big problems or there is a
university-sponsored project to fix them,  the Android screen
reader called talk back will be just a curiosity.

	It is interesting that the social networking
applications are somewhat accessible but mail and the web are
mostly not. This is probably due to several factors that are
nobody's fault but are maybe related to the difficulty of
putting hooks in to the applications or the OS to capture the
needed data.

	If I had gotten one of the phones, Email and web
browsing would have been my two most important uses so I would
have been out of luck.

	I am going to quote a couple of the top lines from
Dane's post and then cut. This is not in anyway an editorial
comment but a space-saving measure.

Dane Trethowan writes:
> I've been waiting for more information on this subject for quite some 
> time, I'm looking for different sorts of accessible mobile equipment and 

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Aug  4 22:04:16 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 07:04:16 +1000
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?_?=
In-Reply-To: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <B4A3026A-B466-4C99-94D7-158803CA79E7@internode.on.net>

The big hinderance here of course is that the developers are playing "Catch-up" with Google, they're the people who develop the Android system I think so it would be very nice if Google actually helped developers of accessible technology, one can only hope that the more this topic is discussed and the more feedback is sent to Google that this might eventuate.  By playing "Catch-up" I mean that Google don't tell anyone how any new versions of the Android operating system will change.

On the bright side - assuming that accessible technology keeps evolving for the Android - Motorolla will be bringing out an Android phone with buttons and a QWERTY keyboard towards the end of the year, Iphones and touch screen phones aren't for everyone <smile>.


On 05/08/2010, at 6:58 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> The sense of the podcast is good in that this is promising but
> not quite ready for prime time yet. I don't mind having to do
> little tricks to get good things to happen but the problems that
> exist with mail and simply turning on the screen reader as well
> as the inability to install applications without sighted
> assistance is a show stopper as far as I am concerned.
> 
> 	Having said that, open source is potentially a torous
> that will ultimately win the race but unless somebody
> single-handedly fixes one of these big problems or there is a
> university-sponsored project to fix them,  the Android screen
> reader called talk back will be just a curiosity.
> 
> 	It is interesting that the social networking
> applications are somewhat accessible but mail and the web are
> mostly not. This is probably due to several factors that are
> nobody's fault but are maybe related to the difficulty of
> putting hooks in to the applications or the OS to capture the
> needed data.
> 
> 	If I had gotten one of the phones, Email and web
> browsing would have been my two most important uses so I would
> have been out of luck.
> 
> 	I am going to quote a couple of the top lines from
> Dane's post and then cut. This is not in anyway an editorial
> comment but a space-saving measure.
> 
> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> I've been waiting for more information on this subject for quite some 
>> time, I'm looking for different sorts of accessible mobile equipment and 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 02:16:11 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 02:16:11 +0100
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?_?=
In-Reply-To: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <5E5F7B6D-ADD9-40F1-9D39-BA697F27F9AC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Recon I'll stick with what I have for the moment.  This shows promise, but it's going to be some time before it's on a par with iPhone.


On 4 Aug 2010, at 21:58, Martin McCormick wrote:

> The sense of the podcast is good in that this is promising but
> not quite ready for prime time yet. I don't mind having to do
> little tricks to get good things to happen but the problems that
> exist with mail and simply turning on the screen reader as well
> as the inability to install applications without sighted
> assistance is a show stopper as far as I am concerned.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 02:18:21 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 02:18:21 +0100
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?_?=
In-Reply-To: <B4A3026A-B466-4C99-94D7-158803CA79E7@internode.on.net>
References: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<B4A3026A-B466-4C99-94D7-158803CA79E7@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <734C6E38-8DA9-4954-8E07-6C79E6B14D33@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Google are too busy fighting Microsoft to worry about a minority such as us I think.  Just personal opinion.

On 4 Aug 2010, at 22:04, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> The big hinderance here of course is that the developers are playing "Catch-up" with Google, they're the people who develop the Android system I think so it would be very nice if Google actually helped developers of accessible technology, one can only hope that the more this topic is discussed and the more feedback is sent to Google that this might eventuate.  By playing "Catch-up" I mean that Google don't tell anyone how any new versions of the Android operating system will change.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug  5 07:51:19 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:51:19 +1000
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re:_Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=97_Zoomed_In?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?_?=
In-Reply-To: <734C6E38-8DA9-4954-8E07-6C79E6B14D33@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<B4A3026A-B466-4C99-94D7-158803CA79E7@internode.on.net>
	<734C6E38-8DA9-4954-8E07-6C79E6B14D33@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F30BBD95-012E-4D75-8A40-C0C8D524ADC5@internode.on.net>

Hmm, don't know about that one, an interesting point but Google have made some interesting noises in the area of accessibility with some of their other products.


On 05/08/2010, at 11:18 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Google are too busy fighting Microsoft to worry about a minority such as us I think.  Just personal opinion.
> 

Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 08:46:41 2010
From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon &Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 08:46:41 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Android_Accessibility_Podcast_=E2=80=94_Zoomed_In_?=
In-Reply-To: <F30BBD95-012E-4D75-8A40-C0C8D524ADC5@internode.on.net>
References: <201008042058.o74KwHes003249@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<B4A3026A-B466-4C99-94D7-158803CA79E7@internode.on.net>
	<734C6E38-8DA9-4954-8E07-6C79E6B14D33@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F30BBD95-012E-4D75-8A40-C0C8D524ADC5@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <87E600B1-BAAF-452E-B3A7-F7EE81BF86F9@tft-bbs.co.uk>



On 5 Aug 2010, at 07:51, Dane Trethowan <g

> Hmm, don't know about that one, an interesting point but Google have made some interesting noises in the area of accessibility with some of their other products.
> 
> 
There is a legal battle currently going on between Google and Microsoft.

I agree that those of you who are blind should be entitled to accessibility universally. But by the same token, sometime some blind people don't do themselves or all of those who are visually impaired by way of their attitudes.

Lynne


_______________________________________


Gordon & Lynne Smith;
gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk


VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971

We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug  5 17:55:09 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 02:55:09 +1000
Subject: Export and emboss Braille with Open Office
Message-ID: <1876A664-5B0E-4E5D-8485-C9E32B9A31AD@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Thought some may find this page interesting though the facilities and functions outlined here don't seem to be available in the Mac and LYNUX versions yet.

http://odt2braille.sourceforge.net/index.html



Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug  5 20:00:15 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 05:00:15 +1000
Subject: Accessibility of Openoffice.org under Windows
Message-ID: <8B160C07-CF00-4EF6-9701-4D6EDE3D39A5@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Since I posted my earlier message regarding exporting to and embossing Braille with Openoffice.org I've been playing with it using the NVDA screen reader - to my knowledge this Screen reader is the only one thus far which enables accessibility to Openoffice.org under windows? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong -.

So far I've played with little of this extensive suite but from what I've seen the accessibility is utterly superb, I've been using the Word Processor and the first thing I noticed is the excellent help tips which are spoken when you navigate through functions and options in the menu system, the process works a little like Voiceover on the Mac announcing help tips after an item has been spoken, I think somewhere you can control the behaviour of this function but I'm yet to discover that <smile>.

The responsiveness I get with Openoffice.org and NVDA is incredible and performance of Openoffice.org is a blast, operations complete with blinding speed.

No, haven't done much in the word processor yet but I was easily able to type a document and select a numbering style for a portion of text within that document.  Unfortunately at this time I've not been able to get the spell checking facility to announce the miss-spelt word but perhaps I need to have another cup of tea and a further read of the NVDA documentation, the suggestions list and the various buttons to manipulate the spell checker are easy to find and access.

Setting up accessibility for Openoffice.org is a little tricky, you first need to be sure you have the latest Java installed on your system - Java Runtime Environment -, you then need to install Openoffice.org itself which can be found at http://www.openoffice.org and then you need to install Java Access Bridge.

Finally you need to enable assistive accessibility from the accessibility options within Openoffice.org and you'll need sight or good skill with your mouse controls in your Screen Reader to get to this option but it can be done as I did it.  There's a registry patch available but I couldn't work out how to download it.

I found the NVDA web site extremely helpful, there's an article on Applications which you should read, it gives details on how to install Openoffice.org and the various components you'll need providing links to them so you can download them.

I'll post more as I continue to explore.


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 20:54:53 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:54:53 +0100
Subject: Export and emboss Braille with Open Office
In-Reply-To: <1876A664-5B0E-4E5D-8485-C9E32B9A31AD@internode.on.net>
References: <1876A664-5B0E-4E5D-8485-C9E32B9A31AD@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <1DB308B0-36C2-45A8-8FF4-33D875DFF7FB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

From our perspective, it is just so frustrating that we still cannot find a way to interface our embosser.  It's an old v2 Everest, only has serial and parallel.

We have a Keyspan USB adapter but the Mac doesn't even see the darn thing, let alone allow us to emboss.

If only there were a USB to parallel version, then at least we could use Duxberry in a VM which, unfortunately, it seems is going to be the only solution left to us.

We need to be able to emboss, and it's getting urgent.  So I have 2 choices.  Either I go out and buy us a cheap laptop running Windows, (maybe), or else I try the Keyspan under Fusion, see what happens.  I must say though that I find the MacBook Pro's 2 USB ports woefully inadequate.

Ah well, rant over.. :-)


Gordon

On 5 Aug 2010, at 17:55, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Thought some may find this page interesting though the facilities and functions outlined here don't seem to be available in the Mac and LYNUX versions yet.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug  5 21:18:42 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 06:18:42 +1000
Subject: Export and emboss Braille with Open Office
In-Reply-To: <1DB308B0-36C2-45A8-8FF4-33D875DFF7FB@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <1876A664-5B0E-4E5D-8485-C9E32B9A31AD@internode.on.net>
	<1DB308B0-36C2-45A8-8FF4-33D875DFF7FB@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4C5B1CA2.5050604@internode.on.net>

On 6/08/2010 5:54 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>  From our perspective, it is just so frustrating that we still cannot find a way to interface our embosser.  It's an old v2 Everest, only has serial and parallel.
>
> We have a Keyspan USB adapter but the Mac doesn't even see the darn thing, let alone allow us to emboss.
>
> If only there were a USB to parallel version, then at least we could use Duxberry in a VM which, unfortunately, it seems is going to be the only solution left to us.
>
> We need to be able to emboss, and it's getting urgent.  So I have 2 choices.  Either I go out and buy us a cheap laptop running Windows, (maybe), or else I try the Keyspan under Fusion, see what happens.  I must say though that I find the MacBook Pro's 2 USB ports woefully inadequate.
>
> Ah well, rant over.. :-)
>
>
> Gordon
>
> On 5 Aug 2010, at 17:55, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>
>    
>> Hi!
>>
>> Thought some may find this page interesting though the facilities and functions outlined here don't seem to be available in the Mac and LYNUX versions yet.
>>      
>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>    
Right, well the USB Keyspan Serial adapter works perfectly on my Imac so 
I'm stumped as to why it shouldn't be working with your system unless 
there's something in your hardware which is different to mine, if you'll 
recall I was one the one who started talking about these Keyspan USB to 
serial adapters, I use a Mountbatten Braille Writer here with my Mac for 
embossing, the Keyspan adapter allows me to connect the serial port of 
the Mountbatten to the Mac and I use both the Louis and Emboss 
applications to get my work to the Mountbatten with the above adapter.

Yes, Keyspan do make a parallel adapter according to my local 
comptuer/software/electronics store where I purchased my serial adapter.

If you're going to go the way of Windows then perhaps you should look at 
the open Office facility first before spending more money on Duxbury? 
I'm not an expert on this software but I know someone who jsut upgraded 
and it cost him an arm and a leg.



From lynne at mac-access.net  Sun Aug  8 23:06:19 2010
From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 23:06:19 +0100
Subject: For the benefit of any visually impaired person using MacSpeech.com
	MacSpeech Dictate [English Language Only]
Message-ID: <E6A9137A-45EC-46E2-8A13-2E8292061A4A@mac-access.net>

Hello everybody; in particular those who currently own Macs.

If any visually impaired person currently owns, or plans to become the owner of a copy of MacSpeech.com Mac Speech Dictate [English language only], I am currently in the process of transcribing the English version of the text which is used by the developers to "Voice Train" the software to your particular voice profile.

This is the only section of the software, (with the exception of the opening installation screen) which is not currently accessible to VoiceOver users. The reason for the inaccessibility is, I am speculating, that the text uses a scrolling font which VoiceOver doesn't seem to detect. Gordon has raised this issue with the developers who have agreed to investigate it as quickly as possible, in an effort to address it in a future maintenance update.

Since this text is quite lengthy, and the software intolerant of improvisation or error on the part of the reader, it is probably going to be somewhat problematic, if not impossible, for a blind person not fortunate enough to possess, or have access to, a Braille terminal to rapidly, accurately and dynamically read the text aloud into a microphone as the software requires.

During voice training, the background noise, (or lack thereof) is important to achieve the best optimisation. So, for example, a speech synthesiser in the background prompting the reader with input, even via headphones, is most likely going to result in poor recognition and, consequently, poor overall results when using the application. Therefore, I am transcribing into Braille the text which the programme displays on screen at the stage where it requires voice training in order to complete the profile creation steps.

Within the UK and overseas, (with the exception of those countries currently on the list of export restrictions posted by the UK Department of Trade and Industry and its equivalent department in the United States), we would be willing to send you a copy of the document in Braille if it would be of any help to you. Given that postage for Braille literature for individuals and non-profit organisations of Braille literature when despatched by UK residents, in the spirit of mutual cooperation, Gordon and I are prepared to do this at no cost to the recipient. Although should you feel disposed to make a donation via PayPl, that would be gratefully received. This group doesn't run without costs, and somebody has to pay them. ;-)

The document will be transcribed on single-side printed A4 paper, although I can try to use alternative paper and I would be willing to use double-sided format if really required. I estimate that it will probably turn out to be somewhere close to 30 pages in length, once transcribed into Braille; although I will know more shortly. I propose to wire-bind the document for the convenience of the reader.

I am doing this purely as a gesture to help any visually impaired person who might need it. I can, if required, also produce a large print version of the document, or a standard print version which I can send accompanying the Braille version.

Please be aware that this has been done with the consent of MacSpeech.com, the copyright holders. (See below for distribution restrictions).

If anybody is interested in any of this, or has constructive comment, questions or suggestions, please feel free to get back to me off list and I will be glad to discuss this further with you. You may contact me off list either using my normal address, or, as might be more appropriate for this particular issue, my Mac-Access address; lynne at mac-access.net at any time. within the next week or so.

Please be aware that, in order to respect the copyrights of the programme vendors, this is a first generation distribution project only.  In other words, you must agree not to pass the document to any third party without first consulting with either Gordon or myself, as we are responsible for the creation of the Braille document. You must also agree not to make second generation copies in full or in part either in the same or other formats.

Please also understand that I won't be holding this open for too long, as we have many projects on the burner at the moment and this is just a sudden inspiration which Gordon and I thought might be helpful to some, so we approached the developers; who agreed with the above stipulations.

Thank you for your time.

Lynne


From bobseed at tbaytel.net  Mon Aug  9 00:44:38 2010
From: bobseed at tbaytel.net (Bob Seed)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:44:38 -0400
Subject: H1 Handy Recorder: New Portable Stereo Recorder Announced
Message-ID: <BCE5396E36FE46B880D48BE6D984EC8A@rseed>

H1 Handy Recorder: New Portable Stereo Recorder Announced
June 20, 2010



At Summer NAMM 2010, Zoom introduced its new handy dandy portable recorder, the H1 Handy Recorder.

The H1 gets its stereo imaging from its onboard microphones configured in an X/Y pattern. According to Zoom, because both mics are arranged on the same axis, they are equidistant from the sound source for perfect localization and no phase shifting, resulting in great stereo recordings with natural depth and accurate imaging.

This handy recorder sports all of its functions on the surface so you don't have to scroll through any menus. Its backlit display features recording levels, file format, time elapsed, remaining battery life, and recording time. All the main controls are located on the side with no menus on the screen -- a large record button, playback and pause, marker, forward and rewind, volume, and so forth. The back of the unit has a single AA battery compartment, a tripod mount, low-cut filter, auto level setting, recording format selectable switches, and a mount for a strap or lanyard clip.

Likewise one side of the recorder sports a 1/8-inch stereo line input, USB port, Power On switch, and Hold switch. On the other side, you can replace your microSD card by folding down the rubberized door, or access a 1/8-inch stereo line / headphone output with adjustable volume control for monitoring playback.

Recording versatility in is order for the H1 as well; the H1 offers recording format flexibility from 16-bit, 44.1 kHz to 24-bit, 96 kHz WAV, or MP3 from 48 kbps to 320 kbps, plus enough onboard tools to make clear recordings out of the box without having to edit them much later.

The H1 records on microSD cards and comes with a 2 GB card. Using a 32 GB microSD card allows for over 50 hours of recording time at 16-bit, 44.1 kHz quality. With its high-speed USB 2.0 port, the H1 allows you to transfer audio files quickly to your computer. And what's more, the H1 includes a reference speaker to ensure your recordings are being captured correctly.

Zoom H1 features: 

 a.. Stereo X/Y mic configuration 
 b.. Same frequency and SPL handling as the Zoom H2 
 c.. Records Broadcast WAV (BWF) at 16-bit or 24-bit, 96 kHz / 48 kHz / 44.1 kHz 
 d.. Records MP3 from 48 to 320 kbps for maximum recording time 
 e.. High-speed USB 2.0 port 
 f.. Built-in reference speaker 
 g.. Includes 2 GB microSD card and 1 AA battery 
 h.. 1 AA size battery allows 10 hours operation 
 i.. Accommodates up to 32 GB microSDHC memory cards 
 j.. Track marker function 
 k.. Low-cut filter 
 l.. Built-in tripod mount 
 m.. 1/8-inch external mic input 
 n.. Stereo 1/8-inch line output 
 o.. Auto record level 
 p.. Optional accessory package (APH-1) includes windscreen, AC adapter (USB type), USB cable, adjustable tripod stand, padded-shell case, and mic clip adapter 

Use the H1 to get clean, clear stereo sound for every recording purpose, from musical performances, songwriting sessions and rehearsals to seminars, conferences, journalism, or capturing audio for video.

An H1 accessory package (APH-1) is also available separately and includes a windscreen, AC adapter (USB type), USB cable, adjustable tripod stand, padded-shell case, and a mic clip adapter.

To learn more about the new Zoom H1 Handy Recorder, please visit Samson's Web site at samson.com.


For more information, visit the official Samson Web site.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Aug 11 00:38:49 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:38:49 +1000
Subject: Reviw of the Tek Connect remote controller for Siemen's Hearing
	Instuments
Message-ID: <9A06D681-27D7-4DEB-89D7-33A95E3232C9@internode.on.net>

Hi!

My podcast on this subject is now available at http://www.blindcooltech.com


Dane Trethowan
grtdane at internode.on.net

Mobile:/SMS +614571201
Twitter: Http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
MSN: grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype: grtdane12




From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 10:45:41 2010
From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon &Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:45:41 +0100
Subject: Windows XP Unattended Installation
Message-ID: <6654F65D-EDE6-4999-B376-3590A724A9BF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody and good morning from a warm and sultry North-East England

I wonder whether anybody else has heard of this, because we have not.

Apparently, a programme exists which runs under Windows and permits you to create unattended installation routines for Windows XP based on a series of questions which the applications asks you.

It can, I am told, also gather drivers from your current machine's configuration and cause therm, including drivers for your sound and graphics hardware, plus other important things.

The only thing that the author of the message discussing this application does not talk about is, as seems to happen all too frequently these days, is where you can obtain the application to generate the scripts, what it is called, and how much, if anything at all, it costs.

You know, it really irritates me when people do that; it's a bit like that. What, I wonder, is the point in telling half-baked stories like that?

The author has not responded to my requests for further information and nor, as I understand it, has he done so for others.

Really irritating to be honest, why cannot these people keep their proverbial mouthes shut if they're only capable of telling half-baked tales.

If, however, anybody knows of this thing, information would be appreciated.

Incidentally, in the last few moments as I have been writing, we have a horrendous downpour.

Lynne



_______________________________________


Gordon & Lynne Smith;
gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk


VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971

We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!



From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 11:02:21 2010
From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon &Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:02:21 +0100
Subject: Duxbury Braille Translator For Windows [DBT Win] 10.6-SR4,
	10.7-SR1 & 11.1
Message-ID: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello again everybody

Does anybody happen to know what is new between these three releases of this application? In the absence of our ability to have our Index Everest series II embosser interface with our Mac, I just resigned myself to buying Gordon another update to this, as I believe it is the best available Windows translation and transcription software.

The people at Duxbury dangled the carrot by telling me of the imminent release of 11.1 but, although they talk about the "dozens of new features), nobody seems to either know or be willing to discuss the new features in detail.

So, if you're a transcriber or you just happen to know more, (not speculation, please), I would loe to hear from you.

Lynne



_______________________________________


Gordon & Lynne Smith;
gordon-and-lynne.mobile at tft-bbs.co.uk


VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971

We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!



From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Aug 12 17:25:07 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:25:07 -0400
Subject: Duxbury Braille Translator For Windows [DBT Win] 10.6-SR4,
	10.7-SR1 & 11.1
In-Reply-To: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100812122507.6rf2bjnn488k4ow8@webmail.iu.edu>

Lynne,

Are you asking about the difference between 10.6 and 10.7? Because if 
so, as a translator, I can tell you a couple of things. But I only have 
hopes and prayers for versioon 11.

Mary




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 21:43:31 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:43:31 +0100
Subject: Duxbury Braille Translator For Windows [DBT Win] 10.6-SR4,
	10.7-SR1 & 11.1
In-Reply-To: <20100812122507.6rf2bjnn488k4ow8@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100812122507.6rf2bjnn488k4ow8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <652F8B9F-872D-4605-B79C-7B1A59F034EA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

I'm sorry for the delay in my response; Gordon was hospitalised again late last week and we've been ever so busy since then sorting out one crisis after another.

On 12 Aug 2010, at 17:25, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? Are you asking about the difference between 10.6 and 10.7? Because if so, as a translator, I can tell you a couple of things. But I only have hopes and prayers for versioon 11.
> 
Yes, 10.6 to 10.7. We are told that 11.1 is due out in around October and contains dozens of improvements and enhancements.

Lynne


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 16 21:58:12 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:58:12 -0400
Subject: Duxbury Braille Translator For Windows [DBT Win] 10.6-SR4,
	10.7-SR1 & 11.1
In-Reply-To: <652F8B9F-872D-4605-B79C-7B1A59F034EA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100812122507.6rf2bjnn488k4ow8@webmail.iu.edu>
	<652F8B9F-872D-4605-B79C-7B1A59F034EA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100816165812.ce4h3h70qscs4g8k@webmail.iu.edu>

Lynne,

I'm sorry to hear Gordon was hospitalized again. That's awful!

10.7 now supports Braille templates for docx files, and if you 
transcribe Math, you can create Math calculations with MatyType which 
will be translated into Nemeth Code.

the Nemeth Code translation is buggy, though.

And I bet, using a Mac, you probably don't care much about Word 2007? I 
don't want to assume, but it's just a thought.

But those are the differences I've noticed between 10.6 and 10.7.

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Mary
>
> I'm sorry for the delay in my response; Gordon was hospitalised again
> late last week and we've been ever so busy since then sorting out one
> crisis after another.
>
> Yes, 10.6 to 10.7. We are told that 11.1 is due out in around October
> and contains dozens of improvements and enhancements.
>
> Lynne
>
>




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 23:14:35 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:14:35 +0100
Subject: Duxbury Braille Translator For Windows [DBT Win] 10.6-SR4,
	10.7-SR1 & 11.1
In-Reply-To: <20100816165812.ce4h3h70qscs4g8k@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <A9A0B5D1-75BF-4095-8491-C5EAB8C5949A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100812122507.6rf2bjnn488k4ow8@webmail.iu.edu>
	<652F8B9F-872D-4605-B79C-7B1A59F034EA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20100816165812.ce4h3h70qscs4g8k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <4757F765-399B-4A14-B7E2-E35967C44350@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

OK, thank you. In actual fact, not a one of those would impact on us in any way. We upgraded because we "had too". They wouldn't allow us to activate it on a new machine and the one we used to use is now in computer heaven.

Thanks for the info. Gordon is in recovery mode but I'll chat with you off list about that later.

Lynne



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Aug 17 16:03:23 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:03:23 -0500
Subject: Comments on Accessible Technology
Message-ID: <201008171503.o7HF3NhG015921@x.it.okstate.edu>

I am not totally sure what you meant, here, but I think I have a
fairly good idea.

	I am old enough to remember when print media were
universally inaccessible unless someone read them to us or put
them in Braille and electronic media and the operation of
electronic devices was generally accessible because the controls
on radios, televisions, phonographs, tape machines, etc, were
dedicated and clicked or had stops to let you know what you were
doing.

	Now, it is a whole new world. If you are like me, the
glass is maybe 3/4 full in that we can access a whole lot more
than we used to be able to. Then, there is that pesky 1/4  which
is incredibly frustrating at times because one never knows when
that monster will bite.

	I distinctly remember my first encounter with unworkable
technology.

	It must have been around 1981 or so because I visited
home after moving to the town I live in now and going to work.

	My parents were showing me their new electronic
telephone which, at the time, was wonderful except for one issue
which any blind person will appreciate.

	The place where the dial should be was a slick, glossy
pressure-sensitive pad like those horrid microwave oven panels
and a jillion other things these days.

	Instead of buttons, there were legends painted on that
had no tactile counterpart at all so one could not ever use the
dial by touch and there were other legends near by to re-dial or
ring up the emergency services who generally have better things
to do than responding to fat-finger mistakes.

	I think I said something like, "Wow! That's a nice
phone. I am glad it's not mine." Fortunately, there were other
phones in the house but what if that was the only one somewhere?

	It is a quandary as to what is the correct attitude to
take. I like to take care of the things I want to do as much as
possible and so much of the technology today just misses the
mark.

	Apple is one of the first companies to really get the
idea right in that the accessibility is eubicquitous. Millions of
people will never turn Voiceover on on purpose and will shut it
off as soon as they figured out what wrong keys they just hit,
but it's there for us any place at any time if needed. That's a
major "'at a boy!"

	The other side of the coin is what Microsoft does and
there is no way I can accept that as the right thing. Yes, I
know that I can buy and install software to make Windows on that
computer accessible. If the man or woman at the next work
station or down the hall has a problem, I am stuck up the creek
without a paddle as far as being able to directly help them. The
accessibility is tied to only those computers that someone
thought would be needed to be made accessible.

	I think it is right that the US Treasury has been forced
by a Federal court to make US currency tactilely identifiable.

	On the other hand, we should be flexible to accept
alternative methods for doing things when possible.

	I just bought a new scanning radio receiver that, on the
surface, is inaccessible because it has lots of menus in which
one can get lost, similar to many cell phones and other modern
devices.

	The one thing this receiver does have, though, is a
serial port and the ability to remotely control it from a
computer. Since I use Linux, I will not be able to really use it
until I master the remote control commands. This doesn't make me
angry at all. It is just a challenge.

Martin McCormick

Lynne Smith writes:
> There is a legal battle currently going on between Google and Microsoft.
> 
> I agree that those of you who are blind should be entitled to 
> accessibility universally. But by the same token, sometime some blind 
> people don't do themselves or all of those who are visually impaired by 
> way of their attitudes.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Aug 17 19:52:32 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:52:32 +0100
Subject: Comments on Accessible Technology
In-Reply-To: <201008171503.o7HF3NhG015921@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201008171503.o7HF3NhG015921@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <00548120-4A4A-4C2A-8ADF-2F54EAC9DEA0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

I am not going to quote all of your message; forgive the editing but now bandwidth is an issue for many people.

Accessibility is a right, not a privilege. But so, I have to say, is the manufacturer's right to choose what they produce and the consumer's choice of what they buy.

So what do you do to strike the right bnalance, I suppose that's the question. First you have to ask yourself if what you have is right for you. If it isn't, you simply don't buy it, end of story.

If, on the other hand, a manufacturer goes out of their way, (as Apple has) to help you, surely they deserve support even if you don't choose to use their equipment.

So why is it still the case, I wonder, that so many people on the accessibility forums are apparently still rubbishing Apple's efforts? Some, it seems, fear the change. Others, it seems, will never be satisfied unless something has Microsoft, Nokia or some other name they know stuck on the front.

Some, by the same token, insist on taking whatever they're told, shown or presented with way out of context. Twisting what they see, hear or what others say to suit their own meanings.
That applies not only to accessibility but sadly, it is the root of much of today's misconceptions.

I wouldn't for a second claim to be an "expert", whatever that might be in the field of accessibility. But I pride myself on my linguistic skills, and I understand the difference between the words "Fair" and "unfair".

It is indeed a shame that people won't live and let live,. In general as well as in the accessibility field, those who should be helping one another would all feel the benefit.

Sometimes, for instance, we have heard people commenting that a certain piece of equipment is not accessible when, in fact, with a little exploration they would find that it is.

I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest here. But sometimes, opinion gets in the way as does the misinterpretation of email.

Accessibility is discussed a lot via email and when people take things way out of context nobody wins.

Lynne

On 17 Aug 2010, at 16:03, Martin McCormick wrote:

> I am not totally sure what you meant, here, but I think I have a
> fairly good idea.

---------------------------------------

Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith ? lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk

Paediatric Care, Health Specialist & Parental Support Adviser.



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Aug 17 20:53:04 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:53:04 -0500
Subject: Comments on Accessible Technology 
Message-ID: <201008171953.o7HJr4qC032298@x.it.okstate.edu>

That is what I thought you meant. I once had the opacity to
state that if Microsoft did not want to develop a screen reader
to include in to Windows to simply be there when anybody ever
needs it, they should determine which commercial package does
the best job and negotiate with the manufacturers of it to
incorporate it in to every new instance of Windows so that it is
universally available. The manufacturer would get a fair royalty
and Windows would then be universally accessible.

	At the time I said that, Apple was years away from
Voiceover so nobody was making an OS that was accessible out of
the box. Nonetheless, you would have thought I was advocating
Bolshevik-style communism. One reply I remember started out,
"No, No, a thousand times No" I just basically dropped the
subject. You can't argue with people who are running a race
backwards to be the first to fall off the cliff. There are all
kinds of psychological studies about why people will
enthusiastically do things that go against their own best
interests. My interests are to solve problems with a minimum of
hassle and extra expense so lost opportunities hurt us all.

	I listened to the podcast about the Android telephone
and found it to be a good start but not quite ready for general
use due to technical issues. Still, people and organizations who
try to bring accessibility to the technology they produce are to
be praised and we can only hope that there will soon be a large
number of choices so we are not trying to jam Size 10 feet in to
Size 5 shoes because that is all we can find.

	It has been 31 years since I first touched a computer
which, by the way, was an Apple 2. I am presently happier than I
have ever been with a Linux P.C running Speakup and a Mac. Both
really shine at certain tasks so I can't say that one size fits
all, but I think things are truly better than ever when it comes
to accessibility but there is still tremendous work left to be
done.

Martin McCormick

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Aug 17 23:01:55 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:01:55 +0100
Subject: Comments on Accessible Technology 
In-Reply-To: <201008171953.o7HJr4qC032298@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201008171953.o7HJr4qC032298@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C7CF5294-281D-4B72-B2A4-00C6BD295FB5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

Yes, I agree with you totally. It's unfortunate though that Microsoft doesn't, and I doubt they ever will see it that way. To them, they don't want th hassle and some people are apparently now not so sure as they once were about Microsoft's commitment to access.

I don't want to start or become involved in yet another pointless and really rather boring "mine's better than yours" argument. Different people prefer different systems and that's fine. Just as those of us who can see prefer different cars, different colours, different most everything.

But There are times when the perceived communist or socialist approach is the most advantageous. Advantageous to the consumer, I mean. As an outsider looking in, you might say, it seems to me that the access world needs a darn good shake-up anyway. Apple started that ball rolling and I hope it continues, for all your sakes.

But there will always be those who resist; always those who make problems even where none exist. Some people, sadly, don't seem to be able to live without confrontation in their lives.

Perhaps they're sad, bored, lonely people I don't know. But there it is. Visually impaired and otherwise, there are always people looking to rock the boat until it tips over. Always companies who, in this instance would I'm sure, contest for years the decision that Microsoft would make, which ever way it went.

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot years ago it seems to me, and now it's too late. Access for all is a must, not something that's only desired but required.

Just as I have access to my car and the public roads. But again, you'll never please everybody. There are always the whingers and the whiners who would get in the way, on both sides of the fence.

Lynne

On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:53, Martin McCormick wrote:

> That is what I thought you meant. I once had the opacity to
> state that if Microsoft did not want to develop a screen reader
> to include in to Windows to simply be there when anybody ever
> needs it, they should determine which commercial package does
> the best job and negotiate with the manufacturers of it to
> incorporate it in to every new instance of Windows so that it is
> universally available. The manufacturer would get a fair royalty
> and Windows would then be universally accessible.

---------------------------------------

Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith ? lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk

Paediatric Care, Health Specialist & Parental Support Adviser.



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Aug 18 19:18:50 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:18:50 +0100
Subject: Goodman Smart-Talk 04 Talking Digital Freeview Set-Top Box Review
Message-ID: <D40EEBB8-8F42-4048-B05E-3C1001C5017D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

If anybody is interested, I've just finished recording, and am finalising the edit of my basic review of this machine.  I will be posting it on Gordon's Playroom shortly, please feel free if you wish, to listen or subscribe.

Just for the record, I have been asked for, and have decline, permission to post this on Blind Cool Tech.  If I find it has found its way there I will be very displeased.

I'll let the list know when the review is up, then it's your call.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 04:36:30 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:36:30 +0100
Subject: Audio Broadcasting Software
Message-ID: <70A6B1AF-D865-4FAE-9F10-24A481FE8C89@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

has anybody played around with a programme called Station Playlist Creator Professional for Windows and, if so, how recently?

My other half has been asked to assist in the configuration of an automated broadcast system and He's considering that as a possible option.

Given that the potential purchaser is a registered United Kingdom charity, we need to get this right. So it looks like a choice between Station Playlist Creator Professional, Spacial Audio Sam Broadcaster, (which Gordon has so can test), and OTS AV DJ Classic, as it is now called.

If anybody happens to have any experience in this field, we would welcome your input. In an ideal world we'd using something non-Windows. But I don't want to get into that argument again. It's a bit tedious as I'm sure the list will agree.

But given the existence of anything viable for OSX, LINUX or anything else, it looks like a choice between 3 competing applications.

OTS is powerful in many ways, and definitely has not only the edge but the whole race won as far as the sound processing it uses is concerned. Probably one of the only good things to come out of Australia in many years. :)

Sam Broadcaster is powerful, but very complex to use and, for the visually impaired user, it is apparently very fiddly to use because Spacial are using what Gordon calls "Non-Windows controls" That apparently is the correct name for them.

Station Playlist Creator I personally have never seen. Gordon has't played with it for the best part of 8 or 9 years.

Any constructive comment welcome and appreciated. He's getting ready for a broadcast right now actually on RNTG. But the temporary method of doing the job is not sustainable long term. I won't bore the group with details, but it involves using what he calls "real studio equipment".

Lynne




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug 26 17:21:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:21:03 +1000
Subject: Bookshare Australia
Message-ID: <BEC474B8-7EAA-4C58-939E-10084E6B87AC@internode.on.net>

sSubject line says it all doesn't it <smile>, thanks to the excellent work of Greg Kearny and others at the Association For The Blind in Western Australia for getting Australian's access to what we up until now have only dreamed of accessing, you can apply or read more about the service at the following link.

http://www.guidedogswa.org/bookshare/


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Aug 26 23:33:02 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:33:02 +1000
Subject: 1 Password for Windows
Message-ID: <2DA3E7A5-39DF-4067-9DB4-2546A7C932E4@internode.on.net>

Hi everyone!

I've been a fan of 1 Password for the Mac for quite some time so I was extremely interested to discover a few weeks back that 1 Password was now available for Windows and even more interested to discover that 1 Password had been available for the Iphone for quite some time.  The advantages of running 1 Password if you have multiple platforms are obvious, just 1 password database for your Iphone, Windows PC and Mac, no cookies on any machines and the ability to sync the database, save a new login or identidy on your Windows machine and it will be mirrored on your Iphone and Mac.

The Windows version is in beta mode right now though orders are being taken so I should think that an official release isn't too far away, the cost is $20.00 which is perfectly reasonable given what the software can do.

The Windows version seems totally accessible though I cannot bring it up in Firefox for some reason.  In Windows Internet Explorer the 1 Password menu option can be selected from the "tools" menu or you can use the ctrl-\ command to bring it up so if you're using Window-Eyes then you're going to have to re-dfine the Window-eyes menu shortcut, for some reason 1 Password overrides this completely.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Aug 31 22:30:16 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:30:16 +1000
Subject: Article: Braille Budy Helps Visually Impaired People Learning How To
	Read and Write
Message-ID: <E0A6FFC7-920A-42B3-9FF8-6C8EF9DDC150@internode.on.net>


http://www.tuvie.com/braille-budy-helps-visually-impaired-people-learning-how-to-read-and-write-braille/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Sep  3 16:34:33 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 16:34:33 +0100
Subject: A Long Long Shot
Message-ID: <B41ED963-8D71-44A7-9EED-E46A399619F8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

This is a long shot, and I'll be astounded if anybody replies to this with anything positive; but here we go anyway.

We have a Keyspan USA19HS serial to USB adapter, for use on a computer which doesn't have any serial ports.

Does anybody happen to know where or if there are any Windows XP Pro SP3 and Windows 7 compatible drivers for this type of device?

I've tried the Windows equivalent of what Apple calls their "Software Update", I can't remember what Microsoft calls their own version. So far, I've found nothing at all useful.

I've googled quite a lot of sites and trawled through the so-called Windows downloads sites. But although I can find lots of references to the drivers and to the adapter itself, I cannot locate a download.

This is creating huge problems for us as we need to set up DBTWin in a VM configuration under either Fusion or Parallels on our Mac, but there's absolutely no point if I cannot locate the appropriate drivers because Braille is the whole point of the VM.

Better still, does anybody happen to have the drivers that we need?

I confess I don't hold out much hope; as everywhere we've asked about this so far; despite, in a couple of cases, promises that turned out to be empty ones, we've had nothing.

I won't deny that I'm becoming very frustrated by this issue; and if it's difficult for me to locate things like this I can imagine what it's like for those with no vision.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Sep 15 20:41:02 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 05:41:02 +1000
Subject: The Zoom H1 digital recorder
Message-ID: <7975D5F5-FA4E-43C7-AB0E-1BC8CF72D3DA@internode.on.net>

The name Zoom will be very familiar to those who are in "the know" when it comes to the subject of portable digital recording equipment and these recorders have always enjoyed good reviews, the latest Zoom H1 is no exception.

You can hear a review of the new H1 recorder by visiting http://www.blindcooltech.com

So what's different abut the H1 as compared to other models? Firstly the H1 is 5 times lighter than the H4.

The other big change is that the H1 has direct buttons for many of its functions rather than having them locked away in complex nested menu structures, this not only means that you can access functions quickly and conveniently when you need them but it also means that the Zoom H1 is the most accessible recorder from this company that's yet been produced and even more accessible os the price of $99.00 U.S.

The recorder will record in a variety of formats including MP3 up to 320 K standard wave PCM and various audio formats used for broadcasting, even a multiple channel format is supported.

The recorder has a set of stereo microphones in a "Y" configuration to maximise any stereo effect.

A lot more to be said about this gem so take a listen to the podcast or look for Zoom H1 with google, I can't give you a specific web site as I only know the Australian distributor, I'm holding off buying one of these for a while as the price in Australia is about to fall dramatically.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Sep 16 19:07:00 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:07:00 +1000
Subject: The Zoom H1 audio recorder
Message-ID: <AF536F24-9619-4EB4-84EC-1DF9EEAA7DBC@internode.on.net>

Hi!

For those in Australia who are thinking about purchasing one of these superb recorders you may wish to hang fire for a week or two.  Dynamic Music - the Australian distributors - are undergoing a major price restructure for all the products they sell right now and are expected to announce new attractive pricing for the H1, it should be available for $120.00 Australian which includes warrantees and so on, I'd rather that than say purchasing internationally or through Ebay <smile>.

For full details consult yesterdays Age Newspaper, the Green Guide Section and the Bleeding Edge column.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Sep 20 00:14:40 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:14:40 +1000
Subject: Winamps audio playback capabilities
Message-ID: <10A7CF38-6E8E-460A-8B5F-FBE8F0983A57@internode.on.net>

Hi!

This message may e a little long-winded so please excuse and bare with me.

One thing I like about Itunes is the ability of Itunes to remember what songs I've played and how many times I've played them, you can using this memory create "favourite" playlists for example so those songs you play often are automatically added to that list so you can Sync it with your Iphone and no that when you're on the move you'll only hear those songs you like when you start playing the Ipod, so far so very good.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on a Yamaha TSX-130 clock radio on Thursday which includes amongst other things a multi-format audio CD player, an Ipod dock and a port for a USB memory stick so here's the question, I'd like to start using memory sticks with the Yamaha and I have Winamp on the Windows PC, is there a similar function in Winamp or a way using Winamp that I can have my most frequently play songs remembered and copied to the Memory stick in a similar way as illustrated in the above example with Itunes?

And finally,  for those wanting to know more about the Yamaha TSX-130? I plan to cover that in more detail in a future email and if you have one of these little beauties? Then may you be enjoying every minute of your listening experience <smile>.



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Sep 20 00:53:40 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 00:53:40 +0100
Subject: Winamps audio playback capabilities
In-Reply-To: <10A7CF38-6E8E-460A-8B5F-FBE8F0983A57@internode.on.net>
References: <10A7CF38-6E8E-460A-8B5F-FBE8F0983A57@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <7DBA8A34-3C1D-403F-9E8E-0C7D77248E13@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

I will top quote. I've just had a good look through Winamp, version 5.4 I think it is. I don't see a way to do what yu want. But how about installing iTunes for Windows? Wouldn't that solve your problem?

Lynne

On 20 Sep 2010, at 00:14, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> This message may e a little long-winded so please excuse and bare with me.
> 
> One thing I like about Itunes is the ability of Itunes to remember what songs I've played and how many times I've played them, you can using this memory create "favourite" playlists for example so those songs you play often are automatically added to that list so you can Sync it with your Iphone and no that when you're on the move you'll only hear those songs you like when you start playing the Ipod, so far so very good.
> 
> I was lucky enough to get my hands on a Yamaha TSX-130 clock radio on Thursday which includes amongst other things a multi-format audio CD player, an Ipod dock and a port for a USB memory stick so here's the question, I'd like to start using memory sticks with the Yamaha and I have Winamp on the Windows PC, is there a similar function in Winamp or a way using Winamp that I can have my most frequently play songs remembered and copied to the Memory stick in a similar way as illustrated in the above example with Itunes?
> 
> And finally,  for those wanting to know more about the Yamaha TSX-130? I plan to cover that in more detail in a future email and if you have one of these little beauties? Then may you be enjoying every minute of your listening experience <smile>.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Sep 20 01:08:17 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:08:17 +1000
Subject: Winamps audio playback capabilities
In-Reply-To: <7DBA8A34-3C1D-403F-9E8E-0C7D77248E13@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10A7CF38-6E8E-460A-8B5F-FBE8F0983A57@internode.on.net>
	<7DBA8A34-3C1D-403F-9E8E-0C7D77248E13@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E8F67E3F-FEC2-478B-B51B-C1B4F78F7F26@internode.on.net>

Problem is that I don't think Itunes is going to copy MP3 files directly to a memory stick to start with and secondly I have to be a little careful as the Yamaha won't handle M4A as far as I know, only MP3 and WMA but as most of my music collection is either in or can easily be converted to MP3 then this isn't a huge problem.


On 20/09/2010, at 9:53 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> I will top quote. I've just had a good look through Winamp, version 5.4 I think it is. I don't see a way to do what yu want. But how about installing iTunes for Windows? Wouldn't that solve your problem?
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 20 Sep 2010, at 00:14, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> This message may e a little long-winded so please excuse and bare with me.
>> 
>> One thing I like about Itunes is the ability of Itunes to remember what songs I've played and how many times I've played them, you can using this memory create "favourite" playlists for example so those songs you play often are automatically added to that list so you can Sync it with your Iphone and no that when you're on the move you'll only hear those songs you like when you start playing the Ipod, so far so very good.
>> 
>> I was lucky enough to get my hands on a Yamaha TSX-130 clock radio on Thursday which includes amongst other things a multi-format audio CD player, an Ipod dock and a port for a USB memory stick so here's the question, I'd like to start using memory sticks with the Yamaha and I have Winamp on the Windows PC, is there a similar function in Winamp or a way using Winamp that I can have my most frequently play songs remembered and copied to the Memory stick in a similar way as illustrated in the above example with Itunes?
>> 
>> And finally,  for those wanting to know more about the Yamaha TSX-130? I plan to cover that in more detail in a future email and if you have one of these little beauties? Then may you be enjoying every minute of your listening experience <smile>.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Sep 23 17:03:21 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 02:03:21 +1000
Subject: Yamaha TSX-130
Message-ID: <92475A1C-5A2E-4370-AC4E-C8DE7BB6EA59@internode.on.net>

The Yamaha TSX-130: Awaken Your Ears
This is a mini review I suppose you?d call it of the Yamaha TSX130 which Yamaha calls a clock radio? Well I wouldn?t as the set is bigger than any clock radio I?ve seen but yet small enough to be placed on a bedside table.
So to the first point about the unit and that?s cost, a considerable cost if you look at this beast in the scheme of things when compared to ?Clock Radio? systems so is extra cost warranted out of your pocket? I have no hesitation in answering yes if you?re after extremely good sound but the only way I believe you?re going to know how good one of these things sounds is to actually go and hear one for yourself if at all possible. If you and your ears are familiar with the Bose Wave Radio then the Yamaha TSX-130 sounds very similar and even more impressive is the fact that this rich sound can be reproduced through 2 3 inch drivers with a 15 watt per channel RMS amp.
You have a variety of audio sources to choose from: Ipod Dock, multi format audio CD player, Radio and Memory stick.
The radio is interesting, with the Australian model you?re able to select from 2 radio sources which are FM and DAB+ digital radio.  I?ve not been able to obtain specs for the U.K. model but I suspect that the same is true in that you can select between FM and DAB.  It would appear that the American model only allows the user to hear the FM broadcast band from the radio and yet I do know of an FM/AM version of this model.
Performance from DAB+ is what you?d expect from a quality unit as this, perhaps the radio isn?t as sensitive as it could be so I?d advise the use of an external aerial if you?re handy to one.  The Yamaha comes supplied with a wire aerial which does not do the set justice at all.
When the DAB+ band is activated for the first time the radio does a scan of the digital band and you?re then able to scroll through the channels the radio found, you can assign any of these to presets, 10 for DAB+
I?ve not been able to set the clock and alarms so I had to get sighted assistance here. The clock is set from the remote control whereas the alarms are set from the controls on the main unit. A variety of alarm tones are available and volume can be adjusted for each, note that volume can be adjusted to an extremely loud level.  You can programme in a playlist from your Ipod, Memory Stick or MP3 audio CD loaded in the CD player as an alarm if that?s what you prefer.
I use the Ipod dock more than anything else as I?m able to gain full access to the Iphone through it with the audio coming through the speakers of the TSX-130, I?ve been able to use the remote controller of the set to navigate menus in the Ipod of the iphone which is exactly what the remote controller is supposed to do. The yamaha doesn?t seem to have a problem with me using other audio players on the Iphone either such as Ootunes so here?s my fully accessible high quality Internet radio <smile>.
The TSX_130 is about the size of a sewing box. Yamaha make various models of Clock Radio, the model below the TSX-130 is the 120, it has everything the 130 has except the USB port for the memory stick and the CD player, instead it has an auxilary in jack. The TSX-80 is a cheaper model again though not nearly as powerful as the 120 or 130.
These clock radios run on AC mains power only and retain settings for a week if the power is switched off.
They?re presented in a wooden vaneer cabinet which is very pleasing to touch and I?d imagine looks very easy on the eye too!
The TSX-130 retails for $599.00 Australian dollars and the 120 is $100.00 cheaper.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Sep 25 18:42:56 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 03:42:56 +1000
Subject: Iamp Remote
Message-ID: <F7AA4899-4DBE-4403-8752-26724F0AA18C@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I'm posting this message to techno-chat as the topic strays away from the mac-access format a little <smile>.

For a while now I've been using an app on my Iphone called Iamp Remote, this app allows full remote control over Winamp running on your Windows PC, perhaps the best thing to compare Iamp to is the control you get over Itunes with your Iphone.

Iamp Remote is completely accessible and you can do everything you'd expect or want to do such as full manipulation of playlists and so on.

Iamp Remote comes in 2 parts, the Iamp Remote app itself which goes onto your Iphone and the Iamp Remote plug-in for Winamp which must be installed to allow communication between Iphone and Windows PC and the control of Winamp.

Had very few problems in setting the app up, Eset Smart Security on the PC complained a bit about the opening of ports but once that issue was easily solved it was smooth sailing from there.



From support at tft-bbs.com  Mon Sep 27 12:55:35 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:55:35 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <0EE9F212-12B4-4CB4-945D-145042E337FB@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional, when a new member joins the Techno-Chat group, for us to send a personal welcome to that member.

In keeping with that tradition, I'd like to welcome a friend of ours, Chris Moore, to our group.

Chris; we are small in number, and quite low in traffic. But I'm sure you can help change that latter problem. -)

Anything technology is fine here Chris; from how to make a telephone out of two baked bean tins and a piece of string, to how to design a talking android to do the washing up and general housework tasks.

I'm sure you won't have, but if you have any list queries, please send them to support at tft-bbs.com or to our very capable standby moderator Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll try to help.

Lynne


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Sep 27 16:38:51 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:38:51 -0400
Subject: New member welcomes
Message-ID: <20100927113851.pqqid2b7cgswgwsw@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

I would also like to chime in and say welcome to Chris Moore. I saw 
another person joined as well, Travis siegle IIf I am misspelling that 
last name I appologize. I don't actually have that e-mail open as I am 
typing).

Mary



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Sep 27 16:42:47 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:42:47 +0100
Subject: New member welcomes
In-Reply-To: <20100927113851.pqqid2b7cgswgwsw@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20100927113851.pqqid2b7cgswgwsw@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <4FC6250A-5501-4F03-A297-432E7D376622@blueyonder.co.uk>

Thank you Mary and thank you lynn  :)
On 27 Sep 2010, at 16:38, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I would also like to chime in and say welcome to Chris Moore. I saw another person joined as well, Travis siegle IIf I am misspelling that last name I appologize. I don't actually have that e-mail open as I am typing).
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From support at tft-bbs.com  Mon Sep 27 22:31:23 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:31:23 +0100
Subject: New Members Welcome
Message-ID: <B4D3D881-4E28-4ACE-A49B-7CEE34C6A9F0@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

First of all, our apologies for the oversight. We weren't notified of these new members joining our group; for reasons which my co-administrator is now investigating. I'm sure he will fix that problem in a flash.

Anyway, I'd like to welcome:
Travis Siegel, Nigel Rhodes, Jed Barton, Eddie Montanez and any other new members I have missed.

Although ow traffic, for the most part, I hope you find Techno-Chat an interesting place to be. Here, we welcome not only the visually impaired, (and that's an important point actually), but anybody who has a genuine interest in technologies.

We hope that you will; A, tell your friends and colleagues that this list is here. B. feel free to post any items you think may be of interest, as long as they relate to technologies.

As usual for our groups, if you wish to reference a web article, please do; but give the group members the opportunity of choosing whether or not to read the item; post links, rather than the article(s) it or themselves.

Once again, welcome to all and feel free to contact support at tft-bbs.com if you have any list-related queries. Alternatively, you may contact our very capable standby list controller, Mary Stores; mstores at indiana.edu who will be delighted to help you.

Lynne



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Sep 28 14:18:16 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:18:16 -0500
Subject: Modern Telephones
Message-ID: <201009281318.o8SDIGLo051024@x.it.okstate.edu>

I wish to address the issue touched on briefly in the welcome
message, that of making a telephone out of string and bean tins.
We are in the twenty-first century and such technology is
relegated to the dust bin. Here is how to make a modern
fiber-optic communications system.

	Idems needed:

One roll of fiber-optic cable. It can be a single strand as this
design is full-duplex.

Two 8-OZ aluminum soda cans which need to be empty.

Attach the base of each soda can to the end of the fiber-optic
cable and stretch tight.

	You can shout in to one soda can and listen in to the
other and it should work. The aluminum bottom of the can is the
same material with which high-end speaker manufacturers make
domed tweeters.

	If you use single-mode fiber, the audio takes on a
richness and timber that dazzles even the tin-est of ears. Your
friend can shine the flashlight down the fiber to give a visual
alert that a call is waiting. If you say, "Wait a minute," you
can then put the fiber in front of a blinking light bulb so that
the other person can see he is on hold.

	Multimode fiber is obsolete these days and the sound
would probably echo around in the fiber and cause nausea and
confusion on the other end so be careful.

Martin McCormick

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Sep 28 19:52:49 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:52:49 +0100
Subject: Modern Telephones
In-Reply-To: <201009281318.o8SDIGLo051024@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201009281318.o8SDIGLo051024@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <64C9407C-3B0F-4AA1-BC76-D5DC91CFBDCA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

No, No  You've got it all wrong here. :-)

You simply can't beat the old bean can and string solution.  All this fibre-optyic rubbish is way over-the-top. 

Just use a piece of string, save the phone bills and all the call charges.

Seriously, much of the UK's telephone infrastructure is still the old twisted pair copper cables which were in use 20 years ago. It's slowly being replaced and BT is now rolling out a fibre-optic network.  Virgin Media has a large network covering a very large part of the UK.  But all the same, their services for business Internet are appalling.

They provide their residential customers with a 50MB downlink yet the business service is only 10.


On 28 Sep 2010, at 14:18, Martin McCormick wrote:

> I wish to address the issue touched on briefly in the welcome
> message, that of making a telephone out of string and bean tins.
> We are in the twenty-first century and such technology is
> relegated to the dust bin. Here is how to make a modern
> fiber-optic communications system.
> 
> 	Idems needed:
> 
> One roll of fiber-optic cable. It can be a single strand as this
> design is full-duplex.
> 
> Two 8-OZ aluminum soda cans which need to be empty.
> 
> Attach the base of each soda can to the end of the fiber-optic
> cable and stretch tight.
> 
> 	You can shout in to one soda can and listen in to the
> other and it should work. The aluminum bottom of the can is the
> same material with which high-end speaker manufacturers make
> domed tweeters.
> 
> 	If you use single-mode fiber, the audio takes on a
> richness and timber that dazzles even the tin-est of ears. Your
> friend can shine the flashlight down the fiber to give a visual
> alert that a call is waiting. If you say, "Wait a minute," you
> can then put the fiber in front of a blinking light bulb so that
> the other person can see he is on hold.
> 
> 	Multimode fiber is obsolete these days and the sound
> would probably echo around in the fiber and cause nausea and
> confusion on the other end so be careful.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Sep 28 20:00:40 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:00:40 -0400
Subject: Modern Telephones
In-Reply-To: <64C9407C-3B0F-4AA1-BC76-D5DC91CFBDCA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201009281318.o8SDIGLo051024@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<64C9407C-3B0F-4AA1-BC76-D5DC91CFBDCA@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20100928150040.q8bvgc2w0gowgwg0@webmail.iu.edu>

My cat got sick, and it ruined my lovely Plantronic telephone. It only 
cost $20, but I am so sad. I actually burst into tears throwing it away.

I guess there's always Skype.

All that cable or string sounds like a lovely cat toy.

Mary



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Sep 29 14:11:01 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:11:01 -0500
Subject: Modern Telephones 
Message-ID: <201009291311.o8TDB1qa061091@x.it.okstate.edu>

Gordon Smith writes:
> No, No  You've got it all wrong here. :-)
> 
> You simply can't beat the old bean can and string solution.  All this 
> fibre-optyic rubbish is way over-the-top.

Well, one can even simulate the modern telephone experience more
authentically by just gluing the end of the fiber to the
blinking light so the other party is perpetually on hold and
it's just like the real thing.

	Some humorist once posed the question, "If you die while
on hold, does your little light go out on the other end?

	Our network here is all twisted coper to individual
subscribers and most small businesses. Our infrastructure,
however, has undergone quite a change over the last 30 or so
years as yours probably also has.

	Our local telephone office was what is called a cross
bar system and dated back to 1957. This was somewhat newer than
the older rotary stepper systems but still more
electromechanical than electronic.

	In 1987, we got a new electronic switch and entered the
modern era.

	The process of getting a new telephone exchange and
decommission ing the old one is actually quite spectacular and
irreversible.

	For months before what telephone people call, "the
cutover," technicians pains-takingly wire in the new switch
phone line by phone line on the very same wires that are
presently working. The secret is that the new switch isn't yet
live and there is this cardboard barrier separating thousands of
metal finger contacts on one side with corresponding contacts on
the other side. 

	When the big day or more correctly, the big night comes,
a notice has been posted in the local newspaper that telephones
will be unavailable for a few minutes around Midnight or later
and then it is time.

	Technicians weald ing huge bolt cutters then literally
sever the thousands of pairs going to the old switch as fast as
they can and, when the last bundle of wires is cut, someone
yanks the cardboard barrier out of those banks of springy
contacts and now all those lines are live on the new switch.

	Usually, it all goes well because the new switch has
been thoroughly tested and retested while it is still dead to
the world, but occasionally, so I've been told, it doesn't work
as expected. Ours did work just fine and we had dial tone a few
minutes later.

	Stillwater was like many smaller towns in that the
telephones up to 1957 were manually connected. One picked up the
handset and the operator asked something like, "number please?"
You've probably seen that in the movies. A person who lived here
back then told me that the telephone company had installed
rotary-dial telephones in everybody's house many months before
the system went live and there were all kinds of notices and
probably radio announcements as to how to use your new dial
telephone in the future. Until that day, the dial was just a
curiosity and did nothing.

	I can never remember anything but the rotary dial as our
family lived in Tulsa which, being a larger city, got dial
telephones much earlier.

	I had several relatives who worked for Southwestern Bell
Telephone who said that some parts of Tulsa had dial service as
far back as the 1920's.

	Well, I started this message earlier this morning and
many of you are probably tired of it by now but I thought you
might be interested in how we got to where we are today.

Martin

From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Sep 29 14:50:54 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:50:54 -0400
Subject: Modern Telephones
In-Reply-To: <201009291311.o8TDB1qa061091@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201009291311.o8TDB1qa061091@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <20100929095054.49f600lkuocw0w4c@webmail.iu.edu>

Actually, I auite enjoyed the read, Martin. It was a nifty historical 
technology lesson. *smiles*

Mary

Quoting Martin McCormick <martin at x.it.okstate.edu>:

> Well, one can even simulate the modern telephone experience more
> authentically by just gluing the end of the fiber to the
> blinking light so the other party is perpetually on hold and
> it's just like the real thing.
>
> 	Some humorist once posed the question, "If you die while
> on hold, does your little light go out on the other end?
>
> 	Our network here is all twisted coper to individual
> subscribers and most small businesses. Our infrastructure,
> however, has undergone quite a change over the last 30 or so
> years as yours probably also has.
>
> 	Our local telephone office was what is called a cross
> bar system and dated back to 1957. This was somewhat newer than
> the older rotary stepper systems but still more
> electromechanical than electronic.
>
> 	In 1987, we got a new electronic switch and entered the
> modern era.
>
> 	The process of getting a new telephone exchange and
> decommission ing the old one is actually quite spectacular and
> irreversible.
>
> 	For months before what telephone people call, "the
> cutover," technicians pains-takingly wire in the new switch
> phone line by phone line on the very same wires that are
> presently working. The secret is that the new switch isn't yet
> live and there is this cardboard barrier separating thousands of
> metal finger contacts on one side with corresponding contacts on
> the other side.
>
> 	When the big day or more correctly, the big night comes,
> a notice has been posted in the local newspaper that telephones
> will be unavailable for a few minutes around Midnight or later
> and then it is time.
>
> 	Technicians weald ing huge bolt cutters then literally
> sever the thousands of pairs going to the old switch as fast as
> they can and, when the last bundle of wires is cut, someone
> yanks the cardboard barrier out of those banks of springy
> contacts and now all those lines are live on the new switch.
>
> 	Usually, it all goes well because the new switch has
> been thoroughly tested and retested while it is still dead to
> the world, but occasionally, so I've been told, it doesn't work
> as expected. Ours did work just fine and we had dial tone a few
> minutes later.
>
> 	Stillwater was like many smaller towns in that the
> telephones up to 1957 were manually connected. One picked up the
> handset and the operator asked something like, "number please?"
> You've probably seen that in the movies. A person who lived here
> back then told me that the telephone company had installed
> rotary-dial telephones in everybody's house many months before
> the system went live and there were all kinds of notices and
> probably radio announcements as to how to use your new dial
> telephone in the future. Until that day, the dial was just a
> curiosity and did nothing.
>
> 	I can never remember anything but the rotary dial as our
> family lived in Tulsa which, being a larger city, got dial
> telephones much earlier.
>
> 	I had several relatives who worked for Southwestern Bell
> Telephone who said that some parts of Tulsa had dial service as
> far back as the 1920's.
>
> 	Well, I started this message earlier this morning and
> many of you are probably tired of it by now but I thought you
> might be interested in how we got to where we are today.
>
> Martin



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Sep 30 18:54:38 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 03:54:38 +1000
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR and
	Text-to-Speech Technology
Message-ID: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>

I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm


From lynne at mac-access.net  Thu Sep 30 20:06:30 2010
From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:06:30 +0100
Subject: Is anybody game for helping us with a test or two?
Message-ID: <A911A614-E09A-4123-9B33-C473A94F1950@mac-access.net>

Hello everybody

I'm looking for a volunteer or two. Ideally, somebody who runs OSX and somebody who runs Windows. Somebody who would be willing to install a piece of software and use it to access our Net TV via the Internet.

I think this "Somebody" would really best be somebody who has an alternative installation of OSX they can use for this, and a "Rollbad" version of Windows which could help them to get rid of the software, if they choose, once the tests are completed.

Basically we're looking for somebody who could access our TV networked box from outside our own local Intranet. It is a supported function and it would be a very interesting test, at least for us.

Anybody interested, perhaps you could contact us privately.

Lynne


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Oct  1 09:04:30 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:04:30 +0100
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR and
	Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>

Thanks for that Dane.

It appears to be the same price as my Humanware iPal SOlo, but has a couple of advantages over my Solo.  As this device has a built in rechargeable battery, can fold up and contains much more voices and languages.  Looks like a good investment, especially if it is as good as my iPal.  I wish they could get the price under ?1000 though.

Chris 
On 30 Sep 2010, at 18:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.
> 
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From lomaswilliam at googlemail.com  Fri Oct  1 09:05:40 2010
From: lomaswilliam at googlemail.com (william lomas)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:05:40 +0100
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR and
	Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8BF4128D-1E75-4B09-B3FD-4F466050862B@googlemail.com>

it 2000 quid though

On Oct 1, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Chris Moore wrote:

> Thanks for that Dane.
> 
> It appears to be the same price as my Humanware iPal SOlo, but has a couple of advantages over my Solo.  As this device has a built in rechargeable battery, can fold up and contains much more voices and languages.  Looks like a good investment, especially if it is as good as my iPal.  I wish they could get the price under ?1000 though.
> 
> Chris 
> On 30 Sep 2010, at 18:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.
>> 
>> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From support at tft-bbs.com  Fri Oct  1 13:54:18 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 13:54:18 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <6EAAC8C2-E521-4FAC-B62B-51604DB1A9C8@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody; or perhaps i should, on this occasions, say bon jour!

I'm delighted to welcome our first French member, Francois Schott to Techno-Chat.

As the introductory message you were sent will have told you, you're welcome to discuss anything technology-related in this list. All traffic, obviously, must be in English language.

If you have any list related queries, please contact either Gordon and myself on support at mac-access.net or our very capable assistant list controller, Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be happy to help you.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Oct  1 14:30:25 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 23:30:25 +1000
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR and
	Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>

In full agreement with that.  There are a few things I'm not sure of when it comes to this device though, for example it appears that there is no way of easily updating the machine when if updates are released etc and I would have liked to see some way of being able to transfer what you've scanned to a computer or at least a memory card but all that aside I think such portable units as this are going to be the way of the future.

Now this is only my personal view but I'm absolutely sick and tired of playing about with OCR packages on computers trying to get good OCR results, whilst OCR technology has come ahead in leaps and bounds in just a short while I consider it a very big handicap to have to base one's reading experiences on a computer and ponder this question to get to my point, why should a blind person have to sit at a computer to read a letter when a sighted person can read one anywhere? Yep, I suppose one could lug around a notebook and scanner but it makes sense to me at least to have everything one needs in one simple box and I think Freedom Scientific to there credit have done a pretty good job with there reader, reads everything from documents and books you scan to daisy titles, will even allow the user to burn stuff to CD-Rom.


On 01/10/2010, at 6:04 PM, Chris Moore wrote:

> Thanks for that Dane.
> 
> It appears to be the same price as my Humanware iPal SOlo, but has a couple of advantages over my Solo.  As this device has a built in rechargeable battery, can fold up and contains much more voices and languages.  Looks like a good investment, especially if it is as good as my iPal.  I wish they could get the price under ?1000 though.
> 
> Chris 
> On 30 Sep 2010, at 18:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.
>> 
>> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Oct  1 17:01:08 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:01:08 -0500
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR and
	Text-to-Speech Technology 
Message-ID: <201010011601.o91G18R8083032@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I had a Telesensory Systems OSCAR system in my office
for about 15 years and it did well with linear text which was
not too fancy. If there were lots of varying type faces used and
other graphical artifacts, it would struggle and print out lots
of typos but the print had to be really strange or mutilated for
it not to at least partly work.

	It did allow one to save the OCR output to disks and I
don't think I would ever want a reading system that couldn't do
that.

	I have many books I scanned on disk and I would hate to
have to re-scan something every time I wanted to read it.

Martin McCormick

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Oct  1 17:24:45 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 02:24:45 +1000
Subject: OCR systems
In-Reply-To: <201010011601.o91G18R8083032@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010011601.o91G18R8083032@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <CCAD7A33-BEB9-43B9-ACC1-7935757DD898@internode.on.net>

Points taken.  I'm not defending the machine we're talking about here, its obviously designed to fit a price and a market, a portable device which is supposed to recognise text quickly and thus give access to it quickly and easily and its no more than that but it should have at least some way of saving what you've scanned I agree.

I remember the Oscar system and I think in many ways it was ahead of its time, I think I used it about 15 years ago too! and I was suitably impressed! I remember Oscar being really quick off the mark when it came to recognition and I thought it at the time to be one of the most accurate OCR systems I'd ever used.


On 02/10/2010, at 2:01 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	I had a Telesensory Systems OSCAR system in my office
> for about 15 years and it did well with linear text which was
> not too fancy. If there were lots of varying type faces used and
> other graphical artifacts, it would struggle and print out lots
> of typos but the print had to be really strange or mutilated for
> it not to at least partly work.
> 
> 	It did allow one to save the OCR output to disks and I
> don't think I would ever want a reading system that couldn't do
> that.
> 
> 	I have many books I scanned on disk and I would hate to
> have to re-scan something every time I wanted to read it.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From djden at thejazzden.org.uk  Fri Oct  1 17:33:58 2010
From: djden at thejazzden.org.uk (Dennis Freedman)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:33:58 +0100
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+, an Intuitive Portable Reading System
	with Instant OCR and	Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>

Hi All
I'm sure I won't be the only one with this view. Why should we have to 
pay (through the nose) for 'specialist' equipment (hardware and/or 
software) when all the technology is available in mobile phones? I still 
use my Kurzweil 3000 when necessary; yes, it's a pain that you have to 
be at the computer, but my own OCR needs tends to be books rather than 
agendas at meetings, notices on noticeboards or menus in restaurants. 
But I believe that in a very short time all these accessibility 
companies with their expensive stand-alone solutions or high-priced 
software packages will be a thing of the past. I bow to them for doing 
all the early development, but I think we've all paid our dues time and 
time again with upgrades, more upgrades and more solutions. Sighted 
people are now realising that this technology has advantages to them 
and, as always, when market forces dictate, demand will rise, prices 
will fall.
Dennis Freedman.


Dane Trethowan wrote:
> In full agreement with that.  There are a few things I'm not sure of when it comes to this device though, for example it appears that there is no way of easily updating the machine when if updates are released etc and I would have liked to see some way of being able to transfer what you've scanned to a computer or at least a memory card but all that aside I think such portable units as this are going to be the way of the future.
>
> Now this is only my personal view but I'm absolutely sick and tired of playing about with OCR packages on computers trying to get good OCR results, whilst OCR technology has come ahead in leaps and bounds in just a short while I consider it a very big handicap to have to base one's reading experiences on a computer and ponder this question to get to my point, why should a blind person have to sit at a computer to read a letter when a sighted person can read one anywhere? Yep, I suppose one could lug around a notebook and scanner but it makes sense to me at least to have everything one needs in one simple box and I think Freedom Scientific to there credit have done a pretty good job with there reader, reads everything from documents and books you scan to daisy titles, will even allow the user to burn stuff to CD-Rom.
>
>
> On 01/10/2010, at 6:04 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>
>   
>> Thanks for that Dane.
>>
>> It appears to be the same price as my Humanware iPal SOlo, but has a couple of advantages over my Solo.  As this device has a built in rechargeable battery, can fold up and contains much more voices and languages.  Looks like a good investment, especially if it is as good as my iPal.  I wish they could get the price under ?1000 though.
>>
>> Chris 
>> On 30 Sep 2010, at 18:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.
>>>
>>> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>   


From mstores at indiana.edu  Fri Oct  1 17:42:53 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Fri,  1 Oct 2010 12:42:53 -0400
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+, an Intuitive Portable Reading
	System with Instant OCR and Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20101001124253.nl62q1u9ics8k44o@webmail.iu.edu>

I also believe that when a more accessible version of Blio comes out, 
it's supposed to be free, isn't it? It has the potential to be very 
nifty.

Mary

Quoting Dennis Freedman <djden at thejazzden.org.uk>:

> Hi All
> I'm sure I won't be the only one with this view. Why should we have
> to pay (through the nose) for 'specialist' equipment (hardware and/or
> software) when all the technology is available in mobile phones? I
> still use my Kurzweil 3000 when necessary; yes, it's a pain that you
> have to be at the computer, but my own OCR needs tends to be books
> rather than agendas at meetings, notices on noticeboards or menus in
> restaurants. But I believe that in a very short time all these
> accessibility companies with their expensive stand-alone solutions or
> high-priced software packages will be a thing of the past. I bow to
> them for doing all the early development, but I think we've all paid
> our dues time and time again with upgrades, more upgrades and more
> solutions. Sighted people are now realising that this technology has
> advantages to them and, as always, when market forces dictate, demand
> will rise, prices will fall.
> Dennis Freedman.
>



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Oct  1 18:10:51 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:10:51 -0500
Subject: Modern Telephones 
Message-ID: <201010011710.o91HAprc083718@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Here is a little more telephone history in case you like
things like that.

	The biggest change in telephones over the lat 50 years
has been in the infrastructure. Sure, our phones have gone from
those heavy black rotary dial sets of the fifties and early
sixties to small, light sets that have features people only
dreamed about 50 years ago, but the telephone offices all over
the world have mostly all gone from what are called step-by-step
or stepper offices to, you guessed it, computers that happen to
do telephone stuff.

	Some of this is not as recent as you think. In the time
around 1920, Dartmouth College built a calculating machine out
of telephone relays. I read a book once where someone described
the sound in the room as like hundreds of ladies with knitting
needles clicking them together.

	Other people have commented on how computers and
telephone switches did remarkably similar tasks but it was not
until the late sixties or so when the two disciplines began to
slowly merge.

	I have never been in a stepper office in a large city
exchange, but those who have tell me the noise was deafening at
peak hours of a business day. I did accidentally stumble across
our small stepper exchange at Oklahoma State University when I
was at school here in the early seventies. Many businesses and
universities had such systems in those days and they were baby
versions of what the public telephone systems had in much of the
world.

	I was walking down a hall looking for something else
when I walked past several closed and locked doors. Behind those
doors, was a lot of raucous pounding that sounded like a whole
room full of Perkins Braille writers being absolutely beaten to
death. It was that rhythmic rat-a-tat sound that somebody might
make if they were transcribing Braille flat out as fast as their
fingers could go. Actually, there were scores of these sounds
coming from many places and not synchronized so it was a whole
room full of that sort of racket.

	I stopped to listen for a minute or so and realized that
this was the click-click-click of telephone digits moving rotary
steppers around their rotation.

	Steppers work kind of like the platten roller on an old
manual typewriter. You hit the return and that lever advances
the paper roller one line. One hit, one line. A stepper has an
electromagnet that pulls an iron bar which moves a rotary switch
from the contact where it is now to the next contact. If you
dialed the number 5, a stepper somewhere clicked forward 5 times
and landed on a new contact.

	The noise was all those moving steppers connecting calls
for people.

	When you hung up at the end of a call, several rotary
steppers would release from the contacts they were holding just
for you and return to their starting position with a Bzzzzzip
sound.

	Back in the old days, police had to work fast to trace
calls from robbers or kidnappers or terrorists because if they
hung up, all the steppers would reset and, unless the call was a
toll call, there was no record anywhere. There were ways of
locking in the relays but agents had to work fast or all would
be lost if the call ended before they could find at least one
end of the call.

	The stepper offices began to be replaced by cross-bar
switches in the fifties. Those didn't have as much operating
noise and they were more energy efficient, but they were still
highly mechanical. They didn't break as often but dirt and wear
would sometimes cause the relays in the switch to hang or not
make connection. You either couldn't complete a call or you
couldn't get rid of one depending on what happened.

	I actually got to visit our central telephone office in
the Spring of 1987 just a month or so before it was converted
over to a computerized switch.

	A lady in the Apple 2 users group I belonged to was
married to the head switchman of the Stillwater office. I said
something about the coming conversion and she asked me if
Beverly and I would like to see the old system. I asked Bev if
she wanted to see it and she did so we all met on a Sunday
Afternoon on a nice clear day.

	We entered the switch room and our host explained that
there used to be an operator switchboard in an adjoining room
but that went away years ago and the operator was now in
Oklahoma City.

	The sound in the room was like a continuous heavy
drizzle of rain on a metal roof. He showed us where our
telephone line entered the building and there was our phone
number on a relay housing along with ten-thousand other people's
numbers on similar housings.

	I got to put my hands on the huge bundle of wires
entering the switch from town. There were bundles the size of a
man's thy, one after another. Each probably had 4800 pairs of
wires in it.

	On the night of the changeover or cutover from the old
system to the new one, I can imagine people slashing through
those huge bundles in seconds that had taken thirty years to
connect one by one. It kind of gives one pause for thought.

	John, our host had spent his entire working life taking
care of that switch and I think he retired soon after the new
system was activated.

	He offered to show me the new system and the
University's modern telephone exchange, but he said there was
really not much to look at, just a big box that humms a little
from the fans inside with lots of wire bundles connecting to it
and that was pretty much it.

	I have always been interested in technical history as it
is all around us and is a bigger part of our lives than we may
realize.

Martin

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Oct  1 20:32:44 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 05:32:44 +1000
Subject: Optelec Unveils ClearReader+,
	an Intuitive Portable Reading System with Instant OCR
	and	Text-to-Speech Technology
In-Reply-To: <4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
Message-ID: <A20EC07B-E854-4A25-8675-65006F7D654F@internode.on.net>

Yep points taken, I've not been reading them but I have been seeing messages about a new KNFB  reaer app for the Iphone.


On 02/10/2010, at 2:33 AM, Dennis Freedman wrote:

> Hi All
> I'm sure I won't be the only one with this view. Why should we have to pay (through the nose) for 'specialist' equipment (hardware and/or software) when all the technology is available in mobile phones? I still use my Kurzweil 3000 when necessary; yes, it's a pain that you have to be at the computer, but my own OCR needs tends to be books rather than agendas at meetings, notices on noticeboards or menus in restaurants. But I believe that in a very short time all these accessibility companies with their expensive stand-alone solutions or high-priced software packages will be a thing of the past. I bow to them for doing all the early development, but I think we've all paid our dues time and time again with upgrades, more upgrades and more solutions. Sighted people are now realising that this technology has advantages to them and, as always, when market forces dictate, demand will rise, prices will fall.
> Dennis Freedman.
> 
> 
> Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> In full agreement with that.  There are a few things I'm not sure of when it comes to this device though, for example it appears that there is no way of easily updating the machine when if updates are released etc and I would have liked to see some way of being able to transfer what you've scanned to a computer or at least a memory card but all that aside I think such portable units as this are going to be the way of the future.
>> 
>> Now this is only my personal view but I'm absolutely sick and tired of playing about with OCR packages on computers trying to get good OCR results, whilst OCR technology has come ahead in leaps and bounds in just a short while I consider it a very big handicap to have to base one's reading experiences on a computer and ponder this question to get to my point, why should a blind person have to sit at a computer to read a letter when a sighted person can read one anywhere? Yep, I suppose one could lug around a notebook and scanner but it makes sense to me at least to have everything one needs in one simple box and I think Freedom Scientific to there credit have done a pretty good job with there reader, reads everything from documents and books you scan to daisy titles, will even allow the user to burn stuff to CD-Rom.
>> 
>> 
>> On 01/10/2010, at 6:04 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> Thanks for that Dane.
>>> 
>>> It appears to be the same price as my Humanware iPal SOlo, but has a couple of advantages over my Solo.  As this device has a built in rechargeable battery, can fold up and contains much more voices and languages.  Looks like a good investment, especially if it is as good as my iPal.  I wish they could get the price under ?1000 though.
>>> 
>>> Chris On 30 Sep 2010, at 18:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>>> 
>>>    
>>>> I'll be interested to see reviews on this machine, if its accurate and at a reasonable price then I can't see any reason why people wouldn't want such a device, read the article at the link below.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4582774.htm
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>>>    
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
>>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat Oct  2 08:54:04 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 08:54:04 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome!
Message-ID: <451EEEB2-ED46-49CA-971A-7459B23BA617@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional, when a new member joins the Techno-Chat group, that Gordon and I try to welcome that new member personally. In keeping with that tradition, I would like to warmly welcome Sarah Alawami to our number.

Sarah is already a member of at least one of our other groups, and we know her to be a contributive, cooperative and intelligent individual and we are sure she will make a fine addition to the group.

Welcome Sarah, we hope that you find this group a friendly, enjoyable and pleasant place to be.

If you have any list-related queries, please feel free, and do not hesitate to contact Gordon and myself, (list owners), or our very capable assistant list controller, Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be happy to help you.

Lynne


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Oct  2 13:34:26 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:34:26 +0100
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
Message-ID: <3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Dennis

I totally agree with you here.  I think it's time these companies learned that the disabled, not only the vision-inpaired, won't tolerate being screwed for money any longer.

Unfortunately though, in the case of blind people, we're our own worst enemies.  Because we pay the price, and that makes these companies think "ah well, we can get away with it!"

If, and I know it will never happen because people need the equipment, but if we all took a stance and said "No, we're not paying those prices", they would soon realise they were in for trouble.

Everybody in this group, except the very new, knows that I am very firmly in Apple's corner. And I think that Apple needs to be given a lot of credit for what they have done for accessibility.  They've brought it to the masses, and made it a main stream component of their operating systems for desktop and mobile devices alike.

Even those, and I know there are some, who don't like Apple's systems, will benefit in the medium to long term I think. Because other developers are going to have to come to understand that they cannot get away with the rip-off culture we've all tolerated for years.

These companies, and I won't name them but a lot of the big accessibility boys, even now, are scrambling to try and persuade people to stay with them.

I remember when Apple first did this, and I was working closely at the time with one of the big developers.  When I switched to Apple, the president of that company said to me personally that, and I quote: "It's good to have an operating system which talks you through the installation.  But the problem is that you can't do anything with it afterwards", end of quote.

What a load of trash that is!  It just shows how frightened they all are of what Apple has done and is doing.

VoiceOver and Zoom will only get better.  Things are, even as I write, happening in the Apple world.  I know more than I can tell you, but let's just say wait and see.  The big cats are roaring loudly and they will soon be even better!

Gordon

On 1 Oct 2010, at 17:33, Dennis Freedman wrote:

> Hi All
> I'm sure I won't be the only one with this view. Why should we have to pay (through the nose) for 'specialist' equipment (hardware and/or software) when all the technology is available in mobile phones? I still use my Kurzweil 3000 when necessary; yes, it's a pain that you have to be at the computer, but my own OCR needs tends to be books rather than agendas at meetings, notices on noticeboards or menus in restaurants. But I believe that in a very short time all these accessibility companies with their expensive stand-alone solutions or high-priced software packages will be a thing of the past. I bow to them for doing all the early development, but I think we've all paid our dues time and time again with upgrades, more upgrades and more solutions. Sighted people are now realising that this technology has advantages to them and, as always, when market forces dictate, demand will rise, prices will fall.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  2 15:43:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 07:43:04 -0700
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>

It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.

Take care.
Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Dennis
> 
> I totally agree with you here.  I think it's time these companies learned that the disabled, not only the vision-inpaired, won't tolerate being screwed for money any longer.
> 
> Unfortunately though, in the case of blind people, we're our own worst enemies.  Because we pay the price, and that makes these companies think "ah well, we can get away with it!"
> 
> If, and I know it will never happen because people need the equipment, but if we all took a stance and said "No, we're not paying those prices", they would soon realise they were in for trouble.
> 
> Everybody in this group, except the very new, knows that I am very firmly in Apple's corner. And I think that Apple needs to be given a lot of credit for what they have done for accessibility.  They've brought it to the masses, and made it a main stream component of their operating systems for desktop and mobile devices alike.
> 
> Even those, and I know there are some, who don't like Apple's systems, will benefit in the medium to long term I think. Because other developers are going to have to come to understand that they cannot get away with the rip-off culture we've all tolerated for years.
> 
> These companies, and I won't name them but a lot of the big accessibility boys, even now, are scrambling to try and persuade people to stay with them.
> 
> I remember when Apple first did this, and I was working closely at the time with one of the big developers.  When I switched to Apple, the president of that company said to me personally that, and I quote: "It's good to have an operating system which talks you through the installation.  But the problem is that you can't do anything with it afterwards", end of quote.
> 
> What a load of trash that is!  It just shows how frightened they all are of what Apple has done and is doing.
> 
> VoiceOver and Zoom will only get better.  Things are, even as I write, happening in the Apple world.  I know more than I can tell you, but let's just say wait and see.  The big cats are roaring loudly and they will soon be even better!
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 1 Oct 2010, at 17:33, Dennis Freedman wrote:
> 
>> Hi All
>> I'm sure I won't be the only one with this view. Why should we have to pay (through the nose) for 'specialist' equipment (hardware and/or software) when all the technology is available in mobile phones? I still use my Kurzweil 3000 when necessary; yes, it's a pain that you have to be at the computer, but my own OCR needs tends to be books rather than agendas at meetings, notices on noticeboards or menus in restaurants. But I believe that in a very short time all these accessibility companies with their expensive stand-alone solutions or high-priced software packages will be a thing of the past. I bow to them for doing all the early development, but I think we've all paid our dues time and time again with upgrades, more upgrades and more solutions. Sighted people are now realising that this technology has advantages to them and, as always, when market forces dictate, demand will rise, prices will fall.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  2 17:04:43 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 09:04:43 -0700
Subject: Microsoft using anti-Linux tactic against Google's Android,
	in the lawsuit Microsoft filed against Motorola 
Message-ID: <8E79A3F2-8F9B-4806-8084-127F772685B9@gmail.com>

I usually post technology articles of all kinds. Let me know if I cannot do this and I won't. Here is the first one I came across.

http://bit.ly/bOM0qy

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  2 17:27:33 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 09:27:33 -0700
Subject: intro
Message-ID: <70C06FE0-076A-49F7-82FF-C06BEB89A3DC@gmail.com>

hello. My name is Sarah Alawami, or you can call me marrie, pronounced as marry not Marie. lol! Anyways I do a podcast called tffp and have been blind for all of my life. I don't chat much but I hope to take part where i can. I also own a macbook pro.

contact info follows.


Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  2 19:28:22 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 11:28:22 -0700
Subject: Shocking: Apple Approves BitTorrent App For App Store
Message-ID: <40FA8A4E-D620-49A8-9279-B79CF71D3189@gmail.com>

Hmm. I don't know what to think of this. Where's apple going with this.

read more:  http://bit.ly/cleVVr

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  2 19:27:01 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 11:27:01 -0700
Subject: Assessing the PlayBook's threat to the iPad 
Message-ID: <5E6701AD-D311-467D-8FA8-C5CC3A9D4E0E@gmail.com>

I never liked the name of the playbook. blackpad sounded better.

read more:

http://bit.ly/azqYGj

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 01:24:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 17:24:08 -0700
Subject: using advertisements as captchas? to do so or not to do so
Message-ID: <FD260C92-8341-42C7-AFBF-EDE0AEDD76E8@gmail.com>

This is an interesting approatch but i would email the devs of this and ask them what they are gooing to do?



TODAY'S MILLION-DOLLAR IDEA: Replacing Annoying CAPTCHA Codes With
Advertisements


Yesterday we introduced War Room <http://www.businessinsider.com/../warroom>
's newest feature, "Daily
<http://www.businessinsider.com/introducing-the-daily-million-dollar-idea-20
10-9> Million-Dollar Idea." In case you don't know the deal, here's what
we're doing:

Everyone has business ideas stashed away in their brains, but they're often
afraid to share them.  But if it's an idea you really want to go for, you
NEED outside opinions.

Submit your flash of brilliance to War Room.  We'll post the ones we think
are promising and you'll get other readers' opinions on whether your concept
is absolutely brilliant or a complete bomb.

And here is today's million-dollar idea:

The Idea: Solve  <http://www.solvemedia.com/> Media

<http://www.solvemedia.com/> Entrepreneur: Ari Jacoby, Founder and CEO,
Solve Media

What It Is:  You know those boxes of faded letters you sometimes have to
type in to access a site? Originally designed to prevent "malicious
programs" from invading website content, Solve Media has transformed them
into an ad unit.

solve media
<http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4ca3a28a7f8b9a5427320300/solve-medi
a.jpg> Instead of seeing randomly generated letters, you are given a phrase
that advertises a product or service. This way, you learn about a brand -
studies report that people remember phrases more when they repeat them - and
online content remains free.

At the very least, Mark Suster is impressed with it. He writes: "I think
we've all come to accept that "[ad] banner
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banner_blindness> blindness" is a real
phenomenon.  Sometimes you see solutions and immediately know they just make
sense.  Solve Media is that."

<http://www.vizu.com> Online Surveys &
<http://answers.vizu.com/market-research.htm> Market Research



Have a million dollar idea of your own? Send it to tips at businessinsider.com
and see if it stands up to our critical readers. Just be sure to include
your name and a photo of yourself, or your idea, in the email.

Join
<http://www.businessinsider.com/daily-million-dollar-idea-solve-media-2010-9
#comments> the conversation about this story >

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 19:03:20 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 11:03:20 -0700
Subject: Baseband 05.14.02 Crash Could Potentially Lead to Unlock for iOS 4.1
	on iPhone 3GS 
Message-ID: <F5D7470F-737E-4AE8-92EA-E2DEFBD93A19@gmail.com>

Video  http://bit.ly/a45qKc

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct  3 20:00:46 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:00:46 +0100
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

Are you saying that it's services and the government who buy your equipment? if so, the situation over here is very very different I can assure you.

Lynne

On 2 Oct 2010, at 15:43, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct  3 20:02:07 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:02:07 +0100
Subject: Microsoft using anti-Linux tactic against Google's Android,
	in the lawsuit Microsoft filed against Motorola 
In-Reply-To: <8E79A3F2-8F9B-4806-8084-127F772685B9@gmail.com>
References: <8E79A3F2-8F9B-4806-8084-127F772685B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2B45299D-1BF7-4A86-B621-04358075CE6A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah


On 2 Oct 2010, at 17:04, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I usually post technology articles of all kinds. Let me know if I cannot do this and I won't. Here is the first one I came across.

Primarily, this is a discussion list, but links to articles are alright.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct  3 20:16:15 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:16:15 +0100
Subject: Microsoft using anti-Linux tactic against Google's Android,
	in the lawsuit Microsoft filed against Motorola 
In-Reply-To: <2B45299D-1BF7-4A86-B621-04358075CE6A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <8E79A3F2-8F9B-4806-8084-127F772685B9@gmail.com>
	<2B45299D-1BF7-4A86-B621-04358075CE6A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <872AABE9-BC14-4BAA-961A-83E6855B2057@tft-bbs.co.uk>


> On 2 Oct 2010, at 17:04, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I usually post technology articles of all kinds. Let me know if I cannot do this and I won't. Here is the first one I came across.

OK, let me send this properly this time, using the proper email account.

Whilst links to articles are fine, it's preferred that they're limited.  Primarily this is a chat list, not a dumping ground, (and I mean that nicely Sarah, not in any way unkindly), for links to articles.

In general, the idea being that you post a link to an article in the hope to promote discussion, or as a part of a discussion.

Simply posting links purely for their own sake is not the purpose of this list. Hence, the name "Techno-Chat".

So we would ask you to use discretion when posting articles. If you think they are relevant and would promote discussion, please do post them. But keep in mind that the core here is technology.

I would also suggest that, since you're a member of our Apple list as well, cross-posting Apple-related content isn't really what we're looking for. I'm trying to be very diplomatic here because I fully accept that your intentions are good.

So I guess what I'm saying here Sarah is, be discrete, and there won't be a problem. Try and stay within reason when it comes to posting article links.

Of course, if the membership come back and tell us that's what they want, then fine; we'll think about being more flexible on that policy.

I hope you understand the position, and by all means do contact us at the support address if you have any comment to make which you'd like us to consider. Perhaps, on reflection, we could also create another sister list called "Techno-Links", where users could post links to their hearts' content. Any comment anybody? If there is a demand, we will do that willingly.

Lynne



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Oct  3 20:27:14 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:27:14 +0100
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
	<CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F6CF7B75-CE0E-4BFD-BE4C-71C6182CDABC@blueyonder.co.uk>

Not really Lynn,

In the civil service here, the only thing they seem to have on their approved list are all the expensive stuff from Humanware or Freedom Scientific.  For example the default screen reader is JAWS, second place is Super Nova and Zoomtext 9.1 as these are combined screen reader/magnification products.  You will not find the cheaper Windows Eyes or System Access.  But to be fair JAWS copes better with bespoke systems due to its scripting abilities.  It costs the Civil Service ?30,000 to test a new product before the green light can be given for it to be added to the approve list as they have to ensure the product is not a security risk or going to bring the network down.  The Civil Service tend to use a lot of expensive Humanware products too.  The same also applies to the NHS.  So combined the NHS and the Civil Service are the biggest employer in the UK and they pay those inflated prices.  If those organisations said no or decided to go with cheaper alternatives then this could drive down prices.  But sadly the established big boys have had it their way for about 20 years+ 

you will also find the people making the purchasing choices are not even blind, they have just been blanket sold the concept at an exhibition in Birmingham and think well its very expensive so therefore it must be the best.  There is no flexibility.  In the same way the default Operating System is Windows (we no longer have any Sun servers) the default office suite is Microsoft, IBM Symphony or OpenOffice have not been considered seriously.  We still use Microsoft IE 6!  How old is that ffs?  We are not allowed to use Firefox.  The default mobile phone is Nokia or Blackberry.

Money money money, so much waste.

Chris 
On 3 Oct 2010, at 20:00, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> Are you saying that it's services and the government who buy your equipment? if so, the situation over here is very very different I can assure you.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 2 Oct 2010, at 15:43, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 21:27:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:27:35 -0700
Subject: It's put-up or shut-up time for the FCC's net-neutrality advocates
Message-ID: <8AE8751D-7CA4-4C6E-A7A8-07422FCAB7B5@gmail.com>

  http://wapo.st/d4LTIz

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct  3 21:45:11 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:45:11 +0100
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <F6CF7B75-CE0E-4BFD-BE4C-71C6182CDABC@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
	<CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F6CF7B75-CE0E-4BFD-BE4C-71C6182CDABC@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <52173FD6-78E3-4641-A483-C7C005369186@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 3 Oct 2010, at 20:27, Chris Moore wrote:

> Not really Lynn,
> 
I stand corrected. But if that really is the case, the whole system needs to be looked at and radically overhauled.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 22:20:31 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:20:31 -0700
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
	<CA0F2079-B7CC-4102-999E-E0001699FAC2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FBB285A2-0BBC-4388-8B82-574552A90685@gmail.com>

yeah they do if you can justify  but if you cannot  or they don't want to you have to safe for it.
On Oct 3, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> Are you saying that it's services and the government who buy your equipment? if so, the situation over here is very very different I can assure you.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 2 Oct 2010, at 15:43, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 22:22:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:22:16 -0700
Subject: Microsoft using anti-Linux tactic against Google's Android,
	in the lawsuit Microsoft filed against Motorola
In-Reply-To: <872AABE9-BC14-4BAA-961A-83E6855B2057@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <8E79A3F2-8F9B-4806-8084-127F772685B9@gmail.com>
	<2B45299D-1BF7-4A86-B621-04358075CE6A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<872AABE9-BC14-4BAA-961A-83E6855B2057@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FDF996FE-21F8-494D-A2CD-FA1A04AFF709@gmail.com>

Yeah i want discussion coming out of these as they are very intestring topics I find. Some I find are, well, pretty sick. lol!
On Oct 3, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> 
>> On 2 Oct 2010, at 17:04, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> I usually post technology articles of all kinds. Let me know if I cannot do this and I won't. Here is the first one I came across.
> 
> OK, let me send this properly this time, using the proper email account.
> 
> Whilst links to articles are fine, it's preferred that they're limited.  Primarily this is a chat list, not a dumping ground, (and I mean that nicely Sarah, not in any way unkindly), for links to articles.
> 
> In general, the idea being that you post a link to an article in the hope to promote discussion, or as a part of a discussion.
> 
> Simply posting links purely for their own sake is not the purpose of this list. Hence, the name "Techno-Chat".
> 
> So we would ask you to use discretion when posting articles. If you think they are relevant and would promote discussion, please do post them. But keep in mind that the core here is technology.
> 
> I would also suggest that, since you're a member of our Apple list as well, cross-posting Apple-related content isn't really what we're looking for. I'm trying to be very diplomatic here because I fully accept that your intentions are good.
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying here Sarah is, be discrete, and there won't be a problem. Try and stay within reason when it comes to posting article links.
> 
> Of course, if the membership come back and tell us that's what they want, then fine; we'll think about being more flexible on that policy.
> 
> I hope you understand the position, and by all means do contact us at the support address if you have any comment to make which you'd like us to consider. Perhaps, on reflection, we could also create another sister list called "Techno-Links", where users could post links to their hearts' content. Any comment anybody? If there is a demand, we will do that willingly.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  3 22:26:40 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:26:40 -0700
Subject: Adidas Gives Up On Apple's iAds Because Steve Jobs Is Too Much Of A
	Control Freak
Message-ID: <11FC3423-0089-4FB6-86DA-19CD6B4FCF6C@gmail.com>

Apparently apple are being control freaks when it comes to posting adds. I'm not  surprised but they  have since lost a 10 million dollar campaign if I read this right. 

Read more.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  4 23:20:49 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:20:49 -0700
Subject: Handheld breath monitor could detect diseases 
Message-ID: <A425DAD5-91F2-4B54-A584-F52C69CA2E71@gmail.com>

Oh wow! it looks like  We can detect disease with an exhaled breath more efficiently. I hope this makes in to the family house hold or doctors offices.
read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20018463-247.html?part=rss&amp;subj=news&amp;tag=2547-1_3-0-20

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  4 23:28:53 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:28:53 -0700
Subject: Apple found liable in Cover Flow patent case
Message-ID: <A7E76289-DB4D-4C2D-956D-E25BD3A7A5A3@gmail.com>

Looks like everyone is getting sue happy again. The article is short but basically what i says is this. that apple is being sued for using someone's technology when presenting documents both on the iphone and on its macs. Read more:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20018431-56.html?part=rss&amp;subj=news&amp;tag=2547-1_3-0-20

I think this is the second or third thime they have been sued in the last few months.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  4 23:35:21 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:35:21 -0700
Subject: Verizon to refund $50 million in "mystery" data fees
Message-ID: <E49D0C61-970F-4AD6-AC66-092C153BB1AB@gmail.com>

I don't knwo how man of you guys use VZ but it looks like they got themselves in hot water. Weill they be able to get out? read more:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/fcc-calls-out-verizon-on-wireless-mystery-fee-snafu.ars

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 00:05:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:05:14 -0700
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
Message-ID: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>

Hello all. I'm thinking of saving for a braille desplay so as to use my computer more efficiently What you all recomend that is both reliable and easy to save up fore?

Thanks.

S.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Oct  5 12:56:25 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:56:25 +0100
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E79F71C4-0A3B-492A-946A-094C7BD9D485@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Just personal preference, but I'm in the Humanware corner.  I recommend the Connect series because they're good for both PC & Mac notebooks and desktops, and also PDA/Mobile phones.

Gordon

On 5 Oct 2010, at 00:05, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Hello all. I'm thinking of saving for a braille desplay so as to use my computer more efficiently What you all recomend that is both reliable and easy to save up fore?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> S.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Oct  5 14:45:20 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:45:20 -0500
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>

It's of course up to you, but honestly, I like the braille on the alva  
displays a whole lot better than anything I've seen anywhere else, the  
braille is crisper, and much easier to read.  Of course, it's all a  
matter of personal choice, and if you gotta buy it yourself (like I  
do) then buy what you can afford, and just deal with what you get. :)
If you have the chance to go to one of the conventions though, try out  
the various displays, and you'll have a much better idea of what  
you'll like, and what works best for you.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Oct  5 18:14:50 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 04:14:50 +1100
Subject: Article: UK firm launches army of laptop snoopers
Message-ID: <08DB2D5F-A9D7-4BEA-A4E1-44BFA95BFD22@internode.on.net>

An interesting idea but I wonder whether it will create more problems than it will solve?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/06/3030428.htm


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 19:09:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:09:35 -0700
Subject: Article: UK firm launches army of laptop snoopers
In-Reply-To: <08DB2D5F-A9D7-4BEA-A4E1-44BFA95BFD22@internode.on.net>
References: <08DB2D5F-A9D7-4BEA-A4E1-44BFA95BFD22@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <F51C9A04-2FED-4DB7-B15E-EFB9193B59C1@gmail.com>

I agree. I think some people might do it for greed perpuses alone and you never if you are beeing watched.

S
On Oct 5, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> An interesting idea but I wonder whether it will create more problems than it will solve?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/06/3030428.htm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 19:11:10 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:11:10 -0700
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>

I did and the one I liked is  no longer made, and costs about 4 grand? Ridiculous! It had bluetooth capabilities and you could also control  your computer using this display as well.

Tc
Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 

On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:45 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> It's of course up to you, but honestly, I like the braille on the alva displays a whole lot better than anything I've seen anywhere else, the braille is crisper, and much easier to read.  Of course, it's all a matter of personal choice, and if you gotta buy it yourself (like I do) then buy what you can afford, and just deal with what you get. :)
> If you have the chance to go to one of the conventions though, try out the various displays, and you'll have a much better idea of what you'll like, and what works best for you.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 19:20:03 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:20:03 -0700
Subject: Google: Oracle's Java patent suit invalid | Relevant Results
Message-ID: <720820DF-5F22-4612-8711-A9C36DAC30AD@gmail.com>

and the plot thickens! Will google win this suit against sun micro systems in regards to there use of java? read more:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20018596-265.html?part=rss&amp;subj=news&amp;tag=2547-1_3-0-20

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Oct  5 20:49:20 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:49:20 -0500
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
	<06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <868B089E-4433-46C4-BBBE-F67F64F1A12F@softcon.com>

Well, believe it or not, 4K is really the low-end of pricing on  
braille displays.
The one I'd really like to have is over 12K, and there's no way I'd  
ever have the funds to purchase such a beast, so guess I just have to  
keep dreaming. :)


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 20:58:53 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:58:53 -0700
Subject: How Apple plays the pricing game / Bloomberg Businessweek - msnbc.com
Message-ID: <4E28844C-1128-47FD-8F79-9BEEE77EF3B5@gmail.com>

HOpefully this link works but I'm sure other companies do this too.

S

http://bit.ly/dfcN2C

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Oct  5 21:27:09 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:27:09 -0500
Subject: How Apple plays the pricing game / Bloomberg Businessweek -
	msnbc.com
In-Reply-To: <4E28844C-1128-47FD-8F79-9BEEE77EF3B5@gmail.com>
References: <4E28844C-1128-47FD-8F79-9BEEE77EF3B5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31EB9B71-A273-4078-86D9-DD1B5FBC481E@softcon.com>

Wow, somebody who really doesn't like apple I see.
Admittedly, Apple does do some of these things, but so does google,  
verizon, motorola, and jut about everyone else.  Apple is a technology  
company, sure, but as the author of the piece points out, they're also  
a marketing company.  They've learned how to makret to the masses, and  
be thankful they have.  It's because of this marketing that we now  
have computers we can use right out of the box, and cell phones we  
don't need to purchase a separate screen reader for.  There's always  
going to be folks who need/want that latest gadget, whether it's  
Apple, Google, or Yahoo who puts it out, Apple has just learned how to  
push the gotta have buttons a lot harder, and get more follks to snap  
up those brand-new gadgets.  In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with  
that, especially since on the whole, when you buy an Apple gadget, you  
not only get the wow factor, but you also get a working product that  
actually is something worth using, something I can't always say for  
other companies who try to play the same market segments.
Plus, (although most folks don't seem to think so) Apple actually does  
care what their users think, and usually produce products that are  
right in line with what folks are hunting for, even if the folks don't  
realize it themselves at first.  It's easy to say I don't need  
something that has a built-in calendar, calculator, email program, and  
so on, because you've already got the same functionality in your pc,  
but when apple produces the iphone, and not only is it a phone, but  
it's basically a pda/minicomputer/cell phone/organizer/all sorts of  
other things, it's easy to see why so many folks jump at the chance to  
have one, because it just makes what they already doing so much  
easier.  That's what apple does very well, they make what you already  
do easier to do.  There's often times nothing spectacular about apple  
products, other than their spiffy new design, but the fact that they  
wrap what you need to do into such a small compact package, and make  
it simple to use is what gains them converts, and as long as they  
continue to inovate in this manner, they'll continue to gain converts.
Apple is a company that really gets it, and even though most of what  
they do is indeed for profit, I don't know any company that does it by  
producing better products with lower ease of use entry, and that my  
friends is the reason apple will continue to grow in the market.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 22:48:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:48:52 -0700
Subject: How Apple plays the pricing game / Bloomberg Businessweek -
	msnbc.com
In-Reply-To: <31EB9B71-A273-4078-86D9-DD1B5FBC481E@softcon.com>
References: <4E28844C-1128-47FD-8F79-9BEEE77EF3B5@gmail.com>
	<31EB9B71-A273-4078-86D9-DD1B5FBC481E@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <43F60C24-49D9-4A58-8966-5C74F4F3C3F2@gmail.com>

Oh I agree. I never thought I'd be using any apple products. My first computer in 1987 was an apple 2e. Remember those? but you are right. I am now using a macbook pro, an iphone and I'm trying to apply for a job at the apple store where II'll be moving.

I agree apple's products are a bit higher priced but I'll look at it like this.

I don't need to purchase a screenreader and that is the downfall of p.c. computers running jaws or other screen reading technology, except for nvda but I digress.

Take care all.
Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 

On Oct 5, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Wow, somebody who really doesn't like apple I see.
> Admittedly, Apple does do some of these things, but so does google, verizon, motorola, and jut about everyone else.  Apple is a technology company, sure, but as the author of the piece points out, they're also a marketing company.  They've learned how to makret to the masses, and be thankful they have.  It's because of this marketing that we now have computers we can use right out of the box, and cell phones we don't need to purchase a separate screen reader for.  There's always going to be folks who need/want that latest gadget, whether it's Apple, Google, or Yahoo who puts it out, Apple has just learned how to push the gotta have buttons a lot harder, and get more follks to snap up those brand-new gadgets.  In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with that, especially since on the whole, when you buy an Apple gadget, you not only get the wow factor, but you also get a working product that actually is something worth using, something I can't always say for other companies who try to play the same market segments.
> Plus, (although most folks don't seem to think so) Apple actually does care what their users think, and usually produce products that are right in line with what folks are hunting for, even if the folks don't realize it themselves at first.  It's easy to say I don't need something that has a built-in calendar, calculator, email program, and so on, because you've already got the same functionality in your pc, but when apple produces the iphone, and not only is it a phone, but it's basically a pda/minicomputer/cell phone/organizer/all sorts of other things, it's easy to see why so many folks jump at the chance to have one, because it just makes what they already doing so much easier.  That's what apple does very well, they make what you already do easier to do.  There's often times nothing spectacular about apple products, other than their spiffy new design, but the fact that they wrap what you need to do into such a small compact package, and make it simple to use is what gains them converts, and as long as they continue to inovate in this manner, they'll continue to gain converts.
> Apple is a company that really gets it, and even though most of what they do is indeed for profit, I don't know any company that does it by producing better products with lower ease of use entry, and that my friends is the reason apple will continue to grow in the market.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  5 22:49:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:49:38 -0700
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <868B089E-4433-46C4-BBBE-F67F64F1A12F@softcon.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
	<06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>
	<868B089E-4433-46C4-BBBE-F67F64F1A12F@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <3336BE6A-E88C-4E44-BF99-88DEA569FAEC@gmail.com>

Actually I believe ther is a bt braille desplay thats pretty small for about 1200 unless I was reading something wrong.

Take care.

s
On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Well, believe it or not, 4K is really the low-end of pricing on braille displays.
> The one I'd really like to have is over 12K, and there's no way I'd ever have the funds to purchase such a beast, so guess I just have to keep dreaming. :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Oct  6 00:39:13 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:39:13 -0500
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <3336BE6A-E88C-4E44-BF99-88DEA569FAEC@gmail.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
	<06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>
	<868B089E-4433-46C4-BBBE-F67F64F1A12F@softcon.com>
	<3336BE6A-E88C-4E44-BF99-88DEA569FAEC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95569466-BB78-4AFE-9130-3E7D96546DAA@softcon.com>

Hmm, must be one of those 20-cell devices.  Never saw one of those  
though.
I'd really love to have one of those bookworms though.  It's only 8 or  
10 cells, but my goodness, how cool would it be to have one of those  
to tote around and read my books with, man, I'd love it, and they're  
only around 1200 new, though I have seen them used for 400 or so, now  
only if I could come up with the funds at the same time I find one of  
those.
Unfortunately, they're not bluetooth or usb though, so it's not likely  
they'd work with osx, but if I could get my hands on one, I'd sure try  
my best to get it working.  That would just be fantastic.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 01:17:23 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 17:17:23 -0700
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <95569466-BB78-4AFE-9130-3E7D96546DAA@softcon.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
	<06BA9AB8-B065-48E4-9F94-DE2A4EB28C4D@gmail.com>
	<868B089E-4433-46C4-BBBE-F67F64F1A12F@softcon.com>
	<3336BE6A-E88C-4E44-BF99-88DEA569FAEC@gmail.com>
	<95569466-BB78-4AFE-9130-3E7D96546DAA@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <8544A3CF-6727-4429-9A44-4ED7A6677DEA@gmail.com>

It might have been but like I said it was a while ago. I don't know how I"d feel with a 12 sell braille display though. I'm used to reading a full line of text.

I'm hoping that with this new technology that's coming out that we will have inexpensive 1 page braille displays.

S
On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Hmm, must be one of those 20-cell devices.  Never saw one of those though.
> I'd really love to have one of those bookworms though.  It's only 8 or 10 cells, but my goodness, how cool would it be to have one of those to tote around and read my books with, man, I'd love it, and they're only around 1200 new, though I have seen them used for 400 or so, now only if I could come up with the funds at the same time I find one of those.
> Unfortunately, they're not bluetooth or usb though, so it's not likely they'd work with osx, but if I could get my hands on one, I'd sure try my best to get it working.  That would just be fantastic.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 03:55:25 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:55:25 -0700
Subject: Telepresence comes home, but it likely won't come cheap 
Message-ID: <42F737DB-0819-4A61-97CF-03D5A1E4F512@gmail.com>

I'm goad the technology is there but I'm not paying 38 a month for this stuff. I guess we'll see what happens. Read more.

http://bit.ly/9xtGUM

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Oct  6 11:25:08 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:25:08 +1100
Subject: Plextalk PTX1 further notes
Message-ID: <0D2A004D-9912-484D-9194-514FAB94355C@internode.on.net>

Hi all!

Playing about with the Plextalk PTX1 as I've been reading a lot of books lately, this device I have to admit has incredible potential for the future of its development.

So here's a case in point, today I used the device to play an audio CD of music, now the PTX1 using its internal speaker is not the best music player as the music is in mono however the mono sound from the speaker is superb so what about keeping your music? No problem, you can copy it from your audio CD to the internal memory of the machine or even to a USB memory stick or a SD card, I've no reason to think that you couldn't hook up a  fat 32 formatted hard drive to the USB port if you wanted for your storage.

The Plextalk PTX1 will then ask you what format you wish to copy your audio CD with and you have 3 choices here, wave 44.1KHZ stereo, MP3 128K and mp3 256K 44.1KHZ stereo respectively, not bad!

All plextalk has to do now is to allow the usage of a CD database facility such as Music Brains and the organisation of your CD collection could be accomplished by a portable "stand-alone" device rather than a computer.

for those who do not know, the Plextalk PTX1 has network connectivity built-in through the use of Wi-Fi and an ethernet port, there is also bluetooth connectivity available but this is still under development and is not expected to be switched on until next year.



From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct  6 14:48:30 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed,  6 Oct 2010 09:48:30 -0400
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101006094830.b4bwo4v0g0k0ssoc@webmail.iu.edu>

Sarah,

I think it already has started changing. If you look at the WebAim 
screen reader survey, you will see that Voiceover and NVDA have both 
very much gained in popularity. SA To Go also has.

Mary

Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:

> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the
> government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services
> nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do
> much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe
> me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.
>
> Take care.
> Sarah Alawami
> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
> aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:
>
> website: http://music.marrie.org
> face book: facebook.com/marrie
> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Oct  6 15:22:08 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:22:08 +0100
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <20101006094830.b4bwo4v0g0k0ssoc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
	<20101006094830.b4bwo4v0g0k0ssoc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FCC2FAD0-1AE5-4683-BEAD-ADD015AC7B80@blueyonder.co.uk>

If only my Employer would let me use a Mac at work all the time.  Maybe that will come when MS Office is accessible.

I imagine the popularity of NVDA and VoiceOver are in the consumer / domestic sector and not the commercial / business sector.

Many employers are attracted to the iPad which is a blessing on the accessibility front.  Now that RIM are about to launch the Playbook at the business community is a worry as it is not accessible out of the box unless you get the pricey humanware add on.  And why call a device a Playbook if it is aimed at businesses?  Strange, but I am moving off topic now.

Chris 
On 6 Oct 2010, at 14:48, Mary Stores wrote:

> Sarah,
> 
> I think it already has started changing. If you look at the WebAim screen reader survey, you will see that Voiceover and NVDA have both very much gained in popularity. SA To Go also has.
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:
> 
>> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the
>> government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services
>> nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do
>> much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe
>> me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.
>> 
>> Take care.
>> Sarah Alawami
>> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
>> aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:
>> 
>> website: http://music.marrie.org
>> face book: facebook.com/marrie
>> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
>> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
>> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct  6 15:38:23 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed,  6 Oct 2010 10:38:23 -0400
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <20101006103823.jmj17zx7k08kg8cc@webmail.iu.edu>

I also like the Alvas and agree with this message. I'd also say keep in 
mind why you're using the display. the one I have at work is a 65-cell, 
but since I do a lot of Braille transcribing, I need it to be that 
large. If I was using a display just for pleasure reading, I'd 
definitely go with something smaller.

Mary

Quoting Travis Siegel <tsiegel at softcon.com>:

> It's of course up to you, but honestly, I like the braille on the
> alva  displays a whole lot better than anything I've seen anywhere
> else, the  braille is crisper, and much easier to read.  Of course,
> it's all a  matter of personal choice, and if you gotta buy it
> yourself (like I  do) then buy what you can afford, and just deal
> with what you get. :)
> If you have the chance to go to one of the conventions though, try
> out  the various displays, and you'll have a much better idea of what
>  you'll like, and what works best for you.
> _______________________________________________
>



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 16:11:12 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:11:12 -0700
Subject: Youth jailed for not handing over encryption password
Message-ID: <A444EF19-CE3A-4BEF-BDCD-F71DE7B563B5@gmail.com>

Well it looks like this kid was in hot water but did they have the right to jail him? thoughts? would there be outcry in the USA if this happened? read more:  http://bit.ly/9EsPFC

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 16:21:13 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:21:13 -0700
Subject: braille desplays what would you recommend
In-Reply-To: <20101006103823.jmj17zx7k08kg8cc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <EBA6997A-DECA-4CD6-ADAC-7296EF00D963@gmail.com>
	<F2E5398B-89BC-4BEA-8BAA-FA4999BA41B9@softcon.com>
	<20101006103823.jmj17zx7k08kg8cc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <A8028BF0-ADBB-49AE-A909-06D148160F17@gmail.com>

I'll probaby use it for reading speach notes and stuff. I don't need it as of now but for me 12 cells is a bit small. lol!
On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> I also like the Alvas and agree with this message. I'd also say keep in mind why you're using the display. the one I have at work is a 65-cell, but since I do a lot of Braille transcribing, I need it to be that large. If I was using a display just for pleasure reading, I'd definitely go with something smaller.
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Travis Siegel <tsiegel at softcon.com>:
> 
>> It's of course up to you, but honestly, I like the braille on the
>> alva  displays a whole lot better than anything I've seen anywhere
>> else, the  braille is crisper, and much easier to read.  Of course,
>> it's all a  matter of personal choice, and if you gotta buy it
>> yourself (like I  do) then buy what you can afford, and just deal
>> with what you get. :)
>> If you have the chance to go to one of the conventions though, try
>> out  the various displays, and you'll have a much better idea of what
>> you'll like, and what works best for you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 16:22:59 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:22:59 -0700
Subject: Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <FCC2FAD0-1AE5-4683-BEAD-ADD015AC7B80@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9D4E3117-3775-47EF-A853-7B606D8A1588@internode.on.net>
	<77D423FB-E76D-428C-B7EE-49769D47E10B@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BCCC8869-9655-40C8-8234-6F10883DFFA8@internode.on.net>
	<4CA60D76.9010004@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<3541CB30-1225-4D3D-9164-90EF9DBC1D50@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B91C4D5E-A689-4D7C-8272-EA71D0D3DD9B@gmail.com>
	<20101006094830.b4bwo4v0g0k0ssoc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FCC2FAD0-1AE5-4683-BEAD-ADD015AC7B80@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E8815522-19F2-4A1A-B6F2-5EF7278CD1D4@gmail.com>

Why not use pages for mac? I don't know if it formats doc files well though. That according to a podcast I hear is accessibil.

System access is pretty good but I personally use nvda for my back up screen reader when flaws, Ur, jaws goes out the window, or won't read a dialogue and only show yes and no buttons.
On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Chris Moore wrote:

> If only my Employer would let me use a Mac at work all the time.  Maybe that will come when MS Office is accessible.
> 
> I imagine the popularity of NVDA and VoiceOver are in the consumer / domestic sector and not the commercial / business sector.
> 
> Many employers are attracted to the iPad which is a blessing on the accessibility front.  Now that RIM are about to launch the Playbook at the business community is a worry as it is not accessible out of the box unless you get the pricey humanware add on.  And why call a device a Playbook if it is aimed at businesses?  Strange, but I am moving off topic now.
> 
> Chris 
> On 6 Oct 2010, at 14:48, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> Sarah,
>> 
>> I think it already has started changing. If you look at the WebAim screen reader survey, you will see that Voiceover and NVDA have both very much gained in popularity. SA To Go also has.
>> 
>> Mary
>> 
>> Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:
>> 
>>> It's not normally us who pay the prices, it's services and the
>>> government that will help us do that and I've tried to show services
>>> nvda and simpler screen readers for those who are not gong to do
>>> much, or for those who are learning computers and they don't believe
>>> me. *frowns* so I don't think this trend will change.
>>> 
>>> Take care.
>>> Sarah Alawami
>>> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
>>> aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:
>>> 
>>> website: http://music.marrie.org
>>> face book: facebook.com/marrie
>>> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
>>> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
>>> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Oct  6 16:23:31 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:23:31 -0500
Subject: Youth jailed for not handing over encryption password
In-Reply-To: <A444EF19-CE3A-4BEF-BDCD-F71DE7B563B5@gmail.com>
References: <A444EF19-CE3A-4BEF-BDCD-F71DE7B563B5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D2A7E67-3A1F-4DF9-8E23-0B08F4FB5284@softcon.com>

Actually, I'm not sure he was in hot water to start with.  It said it  
was an investigation, not a sting or arrest.  That would seem to  
indicate they're hunting for info, and to be honest, I'd do the same  
thing, what's on my system isn't any of anybody's business, and  
especially if the police have it, I'd happily tell them which commands  
to run to gain access to my drive, (things like rm -f * from the root  
folder while logged in as root) rather than give them passwords to  
anything.
I'm wondering if they even had authority to take his computer in the  
first place.  In the us, without a warant, they'd not even get into my  
house, much less be allowed to carry away my computer(s).
I don't know how the uk is on these things, but it seems to me, that  
like the us, they like to use excuses, and claim they're investigating  
real bad stuff (such as porn or something similar) to justify their  
actions, even when said actions weren't strictly legal.  I hope this  
kid never does give them his password.  It's certainly possible he's  
guilty, but barging in, and forcing access to private files/ 
information isn't exactly the way to investigate in my opinion.
There was a similar case in the us a few months back (well, nearly a  
year at this point) where a network administrator refused to give  
passwords to the city of San Francisco.  Now, in that case, he was  
clearly in the wrong, but also in that case, I happen to know there's  
tools available to bypass such things, and the law enforcement didn't  
have a clue, and never did get the systems working w/o the passwords,  
something any reasonable systems administrator with even a bare  
minimum of knowledge of encryption could have done.  It really makes  
me irritated to see these sorts of things, especially when it's clear  
the law enforcement folks haven't got a clue.
Of course, in this case, the kid's lucky his password is so long, or  
it'd probably be cracked already, but still, there have been cases  
here in the us, where judges have said police may access unencrypted  
content, but had to get a separate warant for those items that were  
encrypted that they wanted to look at, since they (possibly) fall  
under different laws.  Of course, that's not usually the way it works,  
but some judges still adhere to the constitution, and freedoms it  
conveys.


On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:11 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Well it looks like this kid was in hot water but did they have the  
> right to jail him? thoughts? would there be outcry in the USA if  
> this happened? read more:  http://bit.ly/9EsPFC
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,  
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's  
> dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat  
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 17:31:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:31:08 -0700
Subject: Youth jailed for not handing over encryption password
In-Reply-To: <0D2A7E67-3A1F-4DF9-8E23-0B08F4FB5284@softcon.com>
References: <A444EF19-CE3A-4BEF-BDCD-F71DE7B563B5@gmail.com>
	<0D2A7E67-3A1F-4DF9-8E23-0B08F4FB5284@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <6D4CD181-3914-42F3-AEE7-F69F157876BC@gmail.com>

Oh in my case if they found out they were going to grab my computer I would put a magnet to that hard drive and take a sledge hammer to it. No one gets access to any of my stuff. I also even now shred stuff I don't want on the os and i have to really be sure I don't want it. I make sure that nothing can be retrieved once it's gone.

In my mind I think they are the wrong but this comes from someone in the US.

S
On Oct 6, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Actually, I'm not sure he was in hot water to start with.  It said it was an investigation, not a sting or arrest.  That would seem to indicate they're hunting for info, and to be honest, I'd do the same thing, what's on my system isn't any of anybody's business, and especially if the police have it, I'd happily tell them which commands to run to gain access to my drive, (things like rm -f * from the root folder while logged in as root) rather than give them passwords to anything.
> I'm wondering if they even had authority to take his computer in the first place.  In the us, without a warant, they'd not even get into my house, much less be allowed to carry away my computer(s).
> I don't know how the uk is on these things, but it seems to me, that like the us, they like to use excuses, and claim they're investigating real bad stuff (such as porn or something similar) to justify their actions, even when said actions weren't strictly legal.  I hope this kid never does give them his password.  It's certainly possible he's guilty, but barging in, and forcing access to private files/information isn't exactly the way to investigate in my opinion.
> There was a similar case in the us a few months back (well, nearly a year at this point) where a network administrator refused to give passwords to the city of San Francisco.  Now, in that case, he was clearly in the wrong, but also in that case, I happen to know there's tools available to bypass such things, and the law enforcement didn't have a clue, and never did get the systems working w/o the passwords, something any reasonable systems administrator with even a bare minimum of knowledge of encryption could have done.  It really makes me irritated to see these sorts of things, especially when it's clear the law enforcement folks haven't got a clue.
> Of course, in this case, the kid's lucky his password is so long, or it'd probably be cracked already, but still, there have been cases here in the us, where judges have said police may access unencrypted content, but had to get a separate warant for those items that were encrypted that they wanted to look at, since they (possibly) fall under different laws.  Of course, that's not usually the way it works, but some judges still adhere to the constitution, and freedoms it conveys.
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:11 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Well it looks like this kid was in hot water but did they have the right to jail him? thoughts? would there be outcry in the USA if this happened? read more:  http://bit.ly/9EsPFC
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct  6 21:25:09 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:25:09 +0100
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors
Message-ID: <CAA4C361-9A61-4B64-AFF5-4775938DE30C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

hi all

Does anybody happen to know whether the design of light detectors, (formerly known as light probes) has changed significantly in the last few years?

I'm in the market for one, but only if they are no longer marketing those crude photo-sensitive cells that activate a buzzer which increases in pitch depending on the intensity of the light source.

Those stupid pen-like things which first came out in the early 70s and which are so darn unreliable and cumbersome to use that they're not worth the money.

Gordon


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 21:52:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:52:16 -0700
Subject: AT&T says no one can stop our "paid prioritization". In regards to
	net neutrality 
Message-ID: <12EB061F-9A5B-463D-A449-12B67D15511B@gmail.com>

I just don't no what to think of this. Read more: http://bit.ly/bFQaMA

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 21:52:59 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:52:59 -0700
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors
In-Reply-To: <CAA4C361-9A61-4B64-AFF5-4775938DE30C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <CAA4C361-9A61-4B64-AFF5-4775938DE30C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5817DEC6-7D61-4B5C-9533-A95974A0083A@gmail.com>

No the buzzer is still there. My friend has one and uses it.

Take care.

S
On Oct 6, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> hi all
> 
> Does anybody happen to know whether the design of light detectors, (formerly known as light probes) has changed significantly in the last few years?
> 
> I'm in the market for one, but only if they are no longer marketing those crude photo-sensitive cells that activate a buzzer which increases in pitch depending on the intensity of the light source.
> 
> Those stupid pen-like things which first came out in the early 70s and which are so darn unreliable and cumbersome to use that they're not worth the money.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Oct  6 22:01:47 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:01:47 -0500
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors 
Message-ID: <201010062101.o96L1lJ4036120@x.it.okstate.edu>

	What sort of light detector do you need? I have used and
even built a few of the type you are describing and they are
very simple. I am not defending them. I am not making and
selling them, but what is wrong with that design?

	I used a led sulphide photo cell in one I built as the
variable resistance device and the only complaint I have is that
it is blind to red light. Led sulphide light-dependant resistors
see best at mid-range visible light which is yellow to green and
also do pretty well in blue but that particular photo cell is
very common in light detectors because it mirrors visible light
pretty well and doesn't prespond to infrared.

	You could make another light detector using a
silicon-based photo transistor and it would see red and infrared
really well but not do so well in the blue and violet end of the
spectrum so not all light probes are created equal.

Martin

Gordon Smith writes:
> hi all
> 
> Does anybody happen to know whether the design of light detectors, 
> (formerly known as light probes) has changed significantly in the last 
> few years?
> 
> I'm in the market for one, but only if they are no longer marketing those 
> crude photo-sensitive cells that activate a buzzer which increases in 
> pitch depending on the intensity of the light source.
> 
> Those stupid pen-like things which first came out in the early 70s and 
> which are so darn unreliable and cumbersome to use that they're not worth 
> the money.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, 
> virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated 
> web pages located at 
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group 
> since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 22:13:01 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:13:01 -0700
Subject: Libyan legal issue takes down URL-shortener 
Message-ID: <8DAAA9B1-CBB6-42DC-BC10-0135CA60C339@gmail.com>

Hmm is this a good idea? Will bit.ly be taken down as well? read more: http://bit.ly/9iVA3X

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 22:22:43 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:22:43 -0700
Subject: What did Facebook really just announce? 
Message-ID: <998DD54C-B8EE-4665-B5E6-1831A3EC8C12@gmail.com>

Will this have any effect on fb mobile? will be able to do any of this on fb mobile? I sure hope so. Read more: http://bit.ly/9NrzFW

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Oct  6 22:46:28 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 16:46:28 -0500
Subject: Libyan legal issue takes down URL-shortener 
In-Reply-To: <8DAAA9B1-CBB6-42DC-BC10-0135CA60C339@gmail.com>
References: <8DAAA9B1-CBB6-42DC-BC10-0135CA60C339@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4362606-9559-421C-B9C0-098A537D0634@softcon.com>

I don't know about bit.ly, but I personally have always used  
tinyurl.com.
Of course, nowadays, I just use a simple php script on one of my pages  
to redirect folks to longer urls.  It's actually quite simple to do,  
and only requires a single 3-line script be located at the url you  
send folks to, so I actually don't depend on these url shorteners any  
longer. :)


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 23:06:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:06:16 -0700
Subject: Libyan legal issue takes down URL-shortener
In-Reply-To: <D4362606-9559-421C-B9C0-098A537D0634@softcon.com>
References: <8DAAA9B1-CBB6-42DC-BC10-0135CA60C339@gmail.com>
	<D4362606-9559-421C-B9C0-098A537D0634@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <7ED6DA58-5D30-4CC4-8FA5-B97136E3F0AD@gmail.com>

Ah yeah I use bit.ly a lot and is.gd I think i got tha tone right. lol! I would not want bit.ly to go down at all as a lot of us do ue it.

Take care.
On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I don't know about bit.ly, but I personally have always used tinyurl.com.
> Of course, nowadays, I just use a simple php script on one of my pages to redirect folks to longer urls.  It's actually quite simple to do, and only requires a single 3-line script be located at the url you send folks to, so I actually don't depend on these url shorteners any longer. :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct  6 23:25:55 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 23:25:55 +0100
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors
In-Reply-To: <5817DEC6-7D61-4B5C-9533-A95974A0083A@gmail.com>
References: <CAA4C361-9A61-4B64-AFF5-4775938DE30C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<5817DEC6-7D61-4B5C-9533-A95974A0083A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <958AB1B7-8E71-40F1-8BAC-0759F2B1AF23@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 6 Oct 2010, at 21:52, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> No the buzzer is still there. My friend has one and uses it.
What Gordon was actually asking was whether the design has changed at all. If not, it's pretty amazing.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Oct  6 23:29:07 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:29:07 +1100
Subject: Jarte 4.1 now available!
Message-ID: <B71F8C02-163D-4FDA-8DAF-B57781E5B33F@internode.on.net>

For those who don't want to use Microsoft Office and who don't want to get a pilots licence to drive the thing anyway <smile> then Jarte is a great and cheap alternative, easy to use, straight to the point and completely accessible so you can find out more abut the new version with new features from the link below.

http://accessibleinsights.info/blog/2010/09/30/jarte-4-1-now-available-accessible-freeware-works-your-words/


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct  6 23:30:32 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 23:30:32 +0100
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors 
In-Reply-To: <201010062101.o96L1lJ4036120@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010062101.o96L1lJ4036120@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <BC40E020-917D-4D94-8227-5793B80112CF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 6 Oct 2010, at 22:01, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	What sort of light detector do you need? I have used and
> even built a few of the type you are describing and they are
> very simple. I am not defending them. I am not making and
> selling them, but what is wrong with that design?
> 
Are you really saying that an ascending and descending buzzer is adequate? I can see, and I know that I wouldn't be happy with that primitive level of information.

Why, for instance, couldn't your light detector give you a spoken read-out of how intense, what kind of light, maybe even colour where appropriate, you're focusing on?

I've seen what the RNIB once sold and, by the sounds of it still sell. They called it a "Light Probe". It sounds a bit like a strangled cat!

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 23:31:15 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:31:15 -0700
Subject: Jarte 4.1 now available!
In-Reply-To: <B71F8C02-163D-4FDA-8DAF-B57781E5B33F@internode.on.net>
References: <B71F8C02-163D-4FDA-8DAF-B57781E5B33F@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <F8F05CF5-8EDA-4162-9E1E-AEB301F8EFEC@gmail.com>

I heard about htis yesterday. A sighted friend told me about this some 5 years ago. Maybe I'll take a look.

Thanks for this.
On Oct 6, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> For those who don't want to use Microsoft Office and who don't want to get a pilots licence to drive the thing anyway <smile> then Jarte is a great and cheap alternative, easy to use, straight to the point and completely accessible so you can find out more abut the new version with new features from the link below.
> 
> http://accessibleinsights.info/blog/2010/09/30/jarte-4-1-now-available-accessible-freeware-works-your-words/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  6 23:31:48 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:31:48 -0700
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors
In-Reply-To: <958AB1B7-8E71-40F1-8BAC-0759F2B1AF23@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <CAA4C361-9A61-4B64-AFF5-4775938DE30C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<5817DEC6-7D61-4B5C-9533-A95974A0083A@gmail.com>
	<958AB1B7-8E71-40F1-8BAC-0759F2B1AF23@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <440638A3-DD40-4A87-B05F-6018FAB6E804@gmail.com>

I think it's grown more compact but I can't remember what his looked like.

S
On Oct 6, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 6 Oct 2010, at 21:52, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> No the buzzer is still there. My friend has one and uses it.
> What Gordon was actually asking was whether the design has changed at all. If not, it's pretty amazing.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Oct  6 23:33:21 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:33:21 +1100
Subject: Jarte 4.1 now available!
In-Reply-To: <F8F05CF5-8EDA-4162-9E1E-AEB301F8EFEC@gmail.com>
References: <B71F8C02-163D-4FDA-8DAF-B57781E5B33F@internode.on.net>
	<F8F05CF5-8EDA-4162-9E1E-AEB301F8EFEC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <289B4F43-E314-45A9-8952-FDC06FB85260@internode.on.net>

Certainly worth the look in my view, I've been using it on my Windows machine for the last 2 years or so though I'm using the paid version which is Jarte Plus.


On 07/10/2010, at 9:31 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I heard about htis yesterday. A sighted friend told me about this some 5 years ago. Maybe I'll take a look.
> 
> Thanks for this.
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> For those who don't want to use Microsoft Office and who don't want to get a pilots licence to drive the thing anyway <smile> then Jarte is a great and cheap alternative, easy to use, straight to the point and completely accessible so you can find out more abut the new version with new features from the link below.
>> 
>> http://accessibleinsights.info/blog/2010/09/30/jarte-4-1-now-available-accessible-freeware-works-your-words/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  7 02:18:18 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:18:18 -0700
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors
In-Reply-To: <BC40E020-917D-4D94-8227-5793B80112CF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201010062101.o96L1lJ4036120@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BC40E020-917D-4D94-8227-5793B80112CF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E3FE5833-C35E-4166-9386-73D926CC6C52@gmail.com>

lol. I can act quicker if it is a sound and the one my friend has he was able to tell by placing his hand over part of the sensor if a family membor turned out the lights like they  were asked too. It sounded like dalphins in the house. lol!
On Oct 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 6 Oct 2010, at 22:01, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> 	What sort of light detector do you need? I have used and
>> even built a few of the type you are describing and they are
>> very simple. I am not defending them. I am not making and
>> selling them, but what is wrong with that design?
>> 
> Are you really saying that an ascending and descending buzzer is adequate? I can see, and I know that I wouldn't be happy with that primitive level of information.
> 
> Why, for instance, couldn't your light detector give you a spoken read-out of how intense, what kind of light, maybe even colour where appropriate, you're focusing on?
> 
> I've seen what the RNIB once sold and, by the sounds of it still sell. They called it a "Light Probe". It sounds a bit like a strangled cat!
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  7 05:04:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:04:08 -0700
Subject: Facebook iPhone app uploads your entire address book for no apparent
	reason. (Cross-post from r/iPhone) 
Message-ID: <153D15A9-9D5F-4FD3-B66A-182EB7421B18@gmail.com>

All I have to say is this is a big oops! I had trouble finishing the article because of safari issues. Read more:http://bit.ly/ccHXSn

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  7 05:10:09 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:10:09 -0700
Subject: Apple Boots BitTorrent App From iPhone Store 
Message-ID: <BBFA636A-F75B-4245-A33D-4819FCDA2D6C@gmail.com>

Frankly I'm not  surprised. but I hope apple changes its mind as we use bit torrent on  the  mac so why not the iphone. and it might be easier to get let's say software updates and such that way. Read more: http://bit.ly/akatEK

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Oct  7 06:43:58 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:43:58 -0500
Subject: Apple Boots BitTorrent App From iPhone Store 
In-Reply-To: <BBFA636A-F75B-4245-A33D-4819FCDA2D6C@gmail.com>
References: <BBFA636A-F75B-4245-A33D-4819FCDA2D6C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B187FAE8-3F0F-4774-B7CA-028256E3DFA5@softcon.com>

A lot of corporations (and individuals too) have the idea that the  
only thing bit torrent is used for is downloading of illegal materials.
I assure you that this is of course not the case, but a lot of  
companies (apple included apparently) seem to think that because a lot  
of folks use it for this purpose, that it's the only thing it's used  
for.
Baen.com through their webscriptions service offers iso images of the  
cds that they include with some of their books that you purchase in  
the store.  However, if you buy a monthly bundle that contains a cd,  
the iso image is placed on the site for download as well.  A lot of  
folks put these iso images onto bit torrent sites, so folks can  
download the images which contain all sorts of materials, including  
several additional electronic titles that are usually part of the  
series the purchased book is part of.
This is perfectly legal, because Baen encourages folks to hand out  
these cds, because it encourages readers to coe back to the site and  
download more books, and even though it gives away some that baen does  
have up for pay on their webscriptions site, Baen has dicovered it  
also drives traffic to the author in general, and increases sales as a  
result.  I have all of the iso images, and on those occasions I do  
fire up bit torrent, I too become a download site for said iso images,  
which is something Baen loves, because it removes the additional  
bandwidth from their servers, which is something they pay for on a  
monthly basis.
So, although a lot of folks/companies frown on bit torrent, it's  
actually quite useful for legitimate services as well.  I've seen  
torrents for large disk images of software as well, where the author's  
site is too slow, or perhaps the site is down, or something similar,  
some kind user simply puts up a torrent, and others can still obtain  
the software for their machines, and the author doesn't loose as many  
trials as they otherwise might have if the torrent wasn't out there.
I know this lead directly (at least once) to me purchasing a license  
to a shareware program, and I can't be the only one.
It really is a shame that corporate can only see the bad side of things.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  7 08:04:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:04:02 -0700
Subject: Apple Boots BitTorrent App From iPhone Store
In-Reply-To: <B187FAE8-3F0F-4774-B7CA-028256E3DFA5@softcon.com>
References: <BBFA636A-F75B-4245-A33D-4819FCDA2D6C@gmail.com>
	<B187FAE8-3F0F-4774-B7CA-028256E3DFA5@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <B55B9DF1-10A9-45A3-A26C-2864C47691D1@gmail.com>

Oh yeah I gree. I remember a beta tester of something had to download a torrent of that beta as that was on the beta testor's site. but I guess we'll see what comes out of this.

S
On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> A lot of corporations (and individuals too) have the idea that the only thing bit torrent is used for is downloading of illegal materials.
> I assure you that this is of course not the case, but a lot of companies (apple included apparently) seem to think that because a lot of folks use it for this purpose, that it's the only thing it's used for.
> Baen.com through their webscriptions service offers iso images of the cds that they include with some of their books that you purchase in the store.  However, if you buy a monthly bundle that contains a cd, the iso image is placed on the site for download as well.  A lot of folks put these iso images onto bit torrent sites, so folks can download the images which contain all sorts of materials, including several additional electronic titles that are usually part of the series the purchased book is part of.
> This is perfectly legal, because Baen encourages folks to hand out these cds, because it encourages readers to coe back to the site and download more books, and even though it gives away some that baen does have up for pay on their webscriptions site, Baen has dicovered it also drives traffic to the author in general, and increases sales as a result.  I have all of the iso images, and on those occasions I do fire up bit torrent, I too become a download site for said iso images, which is something Baen loves, because it removes the additional bandwidth from their servers, which is something they pay for on a monthly basis.
> So, although a lot of folks/companies frown on bit torrent, it's actually quite useful for legitimate services as well.  I've seen torrents for large disk images of software as well, where the author's site is too slow, or perhaps the site is down, or something similar, some kind user simply puts up a torrent, and others can still obtain the software for their machines, and the author doesn't loose as many trials as they otherwise might have if the torrent wasn't out there.
> I know this lead directly (at least once) to me purchasing a license to a shareware program, and I can't be the only one.
> It really is a shame that corporate can only see the bad side of things.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  7 09:42:11 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 01:42:11 -0700
Subject: Verizon to release 4G by the end of the year
Message-ID: <8C7C3AAC-A407-45CF-993D-3C36D898844D@gmail.com>

I'm about to head to bed and I did not get a chance to look at this but hear ya go. Frankly I won't believe this until it happens. I'm sticking to at&t anyways.  Read more: http://bit.ly/9vF2f2

From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Oct  7 14:25:49 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu,  7 Oct 2010 09:25:49 -0400
Subject: What did Facebook really just announce?
In-Reply-To: <998DD54C-B8EE-4665-B5E6-1831A3EC8C12@gmail.com>
References: <998DD54C-B8EE-4665-B5E6-1831A3EC8C12@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101007092549.kgvx9vxyio00wscs@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello Sarah,

It would be good to be able to manage privacy when it comes to 
third-party apps. I don't participate in a lot of those because of that.

I don't know how much of this will effect Facebook Mobile. Presumably, 
you'd never want to download your profile pics or whatever to your cell 
phone.

Mary

Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:

> Will this have any effect on fb mobile? will be able to do any of
> this on fb mobile? I sure hope so. Read more: http://bit.ly/9NrzFW
> _______________________________________________
>



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Oct  7 15:16:20 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:16:20 -0500
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors 
Message-ID: <201010071416.o97EGKeS041561@x.it.okstate.edu>

	The concept of the varying pitch as an indicator of
light intensity is very old. The first light probes were built
in the fifties out of what was then a brand new technology,
namely the transistor. The technology has changed a lot making
the circuit very cheap and easy to build. The one I built
several years ago consisted of the sounder out of a musical
birthday card, a very cheap, common and long-lived chip called
the NE555 timer, a photo cell, resistor and capacitor, and
9-volt battery.

	In total darkness, it makes no sound at all. In early
dawn and late dusk, it begins to tick like a clock and tick
faster as the light gets brighter. In Sunlight, it has a high
whistle somewhat above High C.

	There is even an easier way to do this same job. Texas
Instruments sold a pair of components called "light to
frequency" converters. They were built for the computer and
instrumentation market, not the accessibility world. I tried to
buy some once to see how good they would be at the light probe
job, but could never locate a source of them. In bright light,
they would have not been suitable because their upper frequency
output is around 100 kilohertz which is way above even a dog's
hearing range.

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Are you really saying that an ascending and descending buzzer is 
> adequate? I can see, and I know that I wouldn't be happy with that 
> primitive level of information.
> 
> Why, for instance, couldn't your light detector give you a spoken 
> read-out of how intense, what kind of light, maybe even colour where 
> appropriate, you're focusing on?

	There is no technical reason in the world why that can not be done.
There are practical reasons why it isn't done, namely cost. If I
ever build the ultimate light probe, it would do all those
things. Color is the hardest thing to handle because a single
photo detector can't do that alone. What you need is one pixel
out of a TV camera. TV cameras see in color by putting red, blue
and green filters over their millions of individual photo
detectors. Each pixel is one red, one green and one blue sensor
arranged in a triangle. Your television screen or computer
display has LCD or LED dots on it that have the same color and
positional relationship as the sensors in the camera. You see
color because each pixel has the right proportion of red, blue
and green. The television or computer, itself doesn't even know
what color it is sending. It is just sending millions of little
pieces of information and your eyes and brain do the hard work
of deciding whether what you are looking at is sky, grass or
someone's face.

	Now for the sort of good news. Television cameras have
never been cheaper or easier to come by. If somebody sat down
with the development system for the Iphone and the desire to do
so, they could write an app that could do exactly what you are
asking for because the simple technology of the buzzer, photo
cell and 1 common chip just won't ever be up to all the things
that must happen to make anything talk or evaluate something
like color.

	To say that a light is green, you would read the red
sensor and remember that value, the green sensor and remember
that value, and then read the blue sensor and store that value.
You then would compare all 3 values and use some sort of
decision algorithm that comes down to something like:

Red = 2. Green = 123. Blue = 45. Let's call this green because
there is more of that than anything else.

	Imagine trying to figure out "the hunt." That is the
name of a reddish brown paint that my wife bought to paint a
shelf. Of course a color detector would probably just say that
it was dark reddish brown.

	Your observation as to what kind of information would be
good to know is reasonable. Making it happen demonstrates the
true wonder of the human brain and how it processes information.
Even our best high-tech computers today can't successfully run a
laun mower or do a thousand other tasks that we humans do
without even thinking much.

Martin

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Oct  7 22:24:30 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 08:24:30 +1100
Subject: Article: Microsoft and Adobe Chiefs Meet to Discuss Apple 
Message-ID: <75C48BD1-FBCA-42F1-9FE8-94956488C5DA@internode.on.net>

Hmm,, Could these talks have implications for accessibility?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/microsoft-and-adobe-chiefs-meet-to-discuss-partnerships/


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Oct  7 23:12:52 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:12:52 +1100
Subject: Accessibile open source software
Message-ID: <83BCADD1-F518-4B09-9269-8AF11E6DFF71@internode.on.net>

Here's a link to a list of Open source software which some may find helpful, some of it is cross platform but most works with Windows.

http://empowermentzone.com/OpenSourceProjects.htm


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 18:41:44 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:41:44 -0700
Subject: What did Facebook really just announce?
In-Reply-To: <20101007092549.kgvx9vxyio00wscs@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <998DD54C-B8EE-4665-B5E6-1831A3EC8C12@gmail.com>
	<20101007092549.kgvx9vxyio00wscs@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <9EF41957-CA53-4AED-995D-BCC0878ACFE3@gmail.com>

Actually the ability to manage apps int eh dash board has everything to do with the apps built by Facebook not the ones that are built by other companies. At least that's what a friend of mine thinks when were were discussing this.

S
On Oct 7, 2010, at 6:25 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello Sarah,
> 
> It would be good to be able to manage privacy when it comes to third-party apps. I don't participate in a lot of those because of that.
> 
> I don't know how much of this will effect Facebook Mobile. Presumably, you'd never want to download your profile pics or whatever to your cell phone.
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Will this have any effect on fb mobile? will be able to do any of
>> this on fb mobile? I sure hope so. Read more: http://bit.ly/9NrzFW
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 18:48:47 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:48:47 -0700
Subject: AT&T ups early upgrade fee to smartphones 
Message-ID: <1ED863DD-1152-464B-88AA-956DA1931749@gmail.com>

Is there no way we can put a stop to this? I mean we as the consumer? I've talked to several customer service people about this but they always seem a bit confused, or they to me pretend to care. Read more: http://bit.ly/cnKrJd

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 19:16:32 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 11:16:32 -0700
Subject: Article: Microsoft and Adobe Chiefs Meet to Discuss Apple
In-Reply-To: <75C48BD1-FBCA-42F1-9FE8-94956488C5DA@internode.on.net>
References: <75C48BD1-FBCA-42F1-9FE8-94956488C5DA@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <A8B11748-E3E0-46A8-9164-5D4B94085CF6@gmail.com>

All I see through my foggy Crystal ball is not good. adobe is not always accessible and Microsoft, we will not go there so to me it doesn't look  good, but I guess time will tell.

S
On Oct 7, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hmm,, Could these talks have implications for accessibility?
> 
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/microsoft-and-adobe-chiefs-meet-to-discuss-partnerships/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 20:01:23 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:01:23 -0700
Subject: Cases Might Shatter iPhone 4 Glass Due to Design Flaw
Message-ID: <550E9754-9173-4C24-AFCD-7A635942C955@gmail.com>

I'm not going  to say much here as I need to go eat but I have 1 word and for those who know me well you will know the word. Oops! Read more here:   http://is.gd/fRJ5T

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 23:14:46 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 15:14:46 -0700
Subject: A great day! President Obama signs into law the 21st Century
	Communications and Video Accessibility Act of 2010:
Message-ID: <F46DE296-A6C7-4DDB-AE67-48E6C0D9212E@gmail.com>

http://bit.ly/9jjTK9

From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat Oct  9 11:24:01 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 11:24:01 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <5E765F1F-01E4-477D-BFA9-85D23EE74540@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Carol Forester
to our number.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be.

if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne


From lynne at mac-access.net  Sun Oct 10 00:35:54 2010
From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 00:35:54 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>

Hello Dane

On 10 Oct 2010, at 00:29, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I'm working on an embossing project for someone here and I had to work with a MS Word 2010 document.
> 
I'm just curious. How long does it take you to emboss a page on the Mountbatten which, by the reports I've seen (including your own), is very slow and not a serious machine for embossing.

Lynne

> Nisus Writer Pro imported the document okay however Pages seemed to do a far better job at this with additional warnings about font changes and so forth, certainly the document as imported into Pages is easier to edit but I hate to think how I'd go at changing any of the styles? Well we'll wait and see on that one.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access at mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted since 12 April 2010 to the Mac-Access forum at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free!
> 
> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 00:42:25 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:42:25 +1100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>

Depends on how I set the machine, no the Mountbattin isn't a machine for heavy embossing production and was never designed as such, its designed for personal use as you'd expect from a portable Braille writing device.

By defaults the embossing is quite slow but fast enough for classroom work etc.  This can be changed to 25 characters a second which is pretty good given a portable device which can run on a battery.  When running on battery in fast mode you may only get about 20 pages embossed so its best to emboss with the heavy duty power supply connected.


On 10/10/2010, at 10:35 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 10 Oct 2010, at 00:29, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>> I'm working on an embossing project for someone here and I had to work with a MS Word 2010 document.
>> 
> I'm just curious. How long does it take you to emboss a page on the Mountbatten which, by the reports I've seen (including your own), is very slow and not a serious machine for embossing.
> 
> Lynne
> 
>> Nisus Writer Pro imported the document okay however Pages seemed to do a far better job at this with additional warnings about font changes and so forth, certainly the document as imported into Pages is easier to edit but I hate to think how I'd go at changing any of the styles? Well we'll wait and see on that one.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access at mac-access.net
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted since 12 April 2010 to the Mac-Access forum at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html
>> 
>> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free!
>> 
>> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 01:31:21 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 01:31:21 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

First, understand, please, I am not being critical. I'm just asking out of interest.

On 10 Oct 2010, at 00:42, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? Depends on how I set the machine, no the Mountbattin isn't a machine for heavy embossing production and was never designed as such, its designed for personal use as you'd expect from a portable Braille writing device.
> 
Yes, that's what I thought. But you said you were working on an embossing project for somebody. Hence, my query.

> ? By defaults the embossing is quite slow but fast enough for classroom work etc.  This can be changed to 25 characters a second which is pretty good given a portable device which can run on a battery.  When running on battery in fast mode you may only get about 20 pages embossed so its best to emboss with the heavy duty power supply connected.
> 
Don't you lose quality though if you speed things up?

I'm going to do some serious searching in a minute to sey if I can find somebody somewhere who has written up how to set up these Keyspan things for the Mac. Since I bought this for us we've had zero use out of it. Everybody encouraged us to buy it; but after doing so they went all quiet on the Western front with information as to how to configure the darn thing. Hence, we cannot emboss.

So looks like I'm on my own.

Lynne


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 10 01:42:21 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 19:42:21 -0500
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>

I've had to fall back on a blazie braille printer a time or two when  
we had a print job and our primary versapoint wasn't working.  Let me  
tell you, it was painful.
Although the blazie did work, it didn't allow us to use the 11-11-1/2  
paper, it only takes the 8.5x11 paper, and it's embossing speed is  
somewhere around 20-25 cps instead of the 60+ cps our versabraille  
gets.  I wasn't real happy with those results, especially since after  
about 10 pages or so, the blazie got overheated, and began missing  
lines/characters, we had to break the printing  tasks into several  
stages to get it done.  Since then, I've purchased a second  
versapoint, (now we have 3, though at the moment, 2 are nonfunctional)  
seems they have some rather delicate parts inside, and aren't all that  
simple to repair <sigh>
But, either way, it sure beats hand brailling things which I've had to  
do a time or two as well, let me tell you, that's not fun. :)


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 01:45:21 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:45:21 +1100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <95092C0E-89A1-4C02-B5BD-B158574BD32D@internode.on.net>

no quality loss whatever when you speed things up, the embossing head however works harder and thus the machine takes more power as I told you in the previous message.


On 10/10/2010, at 11:31 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> First, understand, please, I am not being critical. I'm just asking out of interest.
> 
> On 10 Oct 2010, at 00:42, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? Depends on how I set the machine, no the Mountbattin isn't a machine for heavy embossing production and was never designed as such, its designed for personal use as you'd expect from a portable Braille writing device.
>> 
> Yes, that's what I thought. But you said you were working on an embossing project for somebody. Hence, my query.
> 
>> ? By defaults the embossing is quite slow but fast enough for classroom work etc.  This can be changed to 25 characters a second which is pretty good given a portable device which can run on a battery.  When running on battery in fast mode you may only get about 20 pages embossed so its best to emboss with the heavy duty power supply connected.
>> 
> Don't you lose quality though if you speed things up?
> 
> I'm going to do some serious searching in a minute to sey if I can find somebody somewhere who has written up how to set up these Keyspan things for the Mac. Since I bought this for us we've had zero use out of it. Everybody encouraged us to buy it; but after doing so they went all quiet on the Western front with information as to how to configure the darn thing. Hence, we cannot emboss.
> 
> So looks like I'm on my own.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 01:54:55 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:54:55 +1100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D71F02C5-B30B-4531-B5BF-66F30E0E5B62@internode.on.net>

Depends on what you want I suppose, portability was my main concern when I bought the Moutbattin and connectivity was high on the list.  I wanted a device I could take notes on independent of any computer and thus I had to make a few sacrifices.

No, not the world's fastest embosser but fast enough for me to do a project or two and get a bit of icing on the cake.  No, I wouldn't want to publish volumes of Braille with it however a few pages or multiple copies of same is fine, I have the time.

And of course, the Mountbattin here works well with Greg Kearney's Louis and Emboss applications through the Keyspan usb to serial adapter, Greg was one of the people who gave me helpful information in setting the system up, the other person worked at a University in New South Whales where Macs are plentiful along with visually impaired students so they had to find a quick and affective way of embossing documents.

I posted a document to the list some time ago which outlined the procedures and steps used to set things up though I think it was long before archives of the list were kept.


On 10/10/2010, at 11:42 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I've had to fall back on a blazie braille printer a time or two when we had a print job and our primary versapoint wasn't working.  Let me tell you, it was painful.
> Although the blazie did work, it didn't allow us to use the 11-11-1/2 paper, it only takes the 8.5x11 paper, and it's embossing speed is somewhere around 20-25 cps instead of the 60+ cps our versabraille gets.  I wasn't real happy with those results, especially since after about 10 pages or so, the blazie got overheated, and began missing lines/characters, we had to break the printing  tasks into several stages to get it done.  Since then, I've purchased a second versapoint, (now we have 3, though at the moment, 2 are nonfunctional) seems they have some rather delicate parts inside, and aren't all that simple to repair <sigh>
> But, either way, it sure beats hand brailling things which I've had to do a time or two as well, let me tell you, that's not fun. :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 02:17:45 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:17:45 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

Actually, as somebody who has eyes, I would *love* to learn to hand-Braille. The first thing I ever did with Braille was sit down with a hand frame and stylus and write Gordon a very soppy birthday card for his birthday the first year we were together.

He had told us all nicely not to bother wasting money on birthday cards that he couldn't read. So I decided I'd waste my money on one he could read.

I sat down with a Braille prima which has printed characters above each Braille letter and I pain-stakingly worked out each letter of what I wanted to say and wrote it.

Gordon has an old 1973 vintage Perkins Brailler that he would love to get fixed. But we can't find anywhere to get it done. I would love to learn to use that.

We have an Index Everest embosser sitting here doing sweet fanny adams at the moment, because of the fact that our one and only PC broke down yesterday. It's a laptop and the chances of getting it fixed are less than a million in one.

It suddenly decided to display rainbow colours instead of what it should be displaying and it's not a software problem because it does it from the moment you power it up. So that's the end of that.

So now we have no option other than to try a bit harder to find somebody who will tell us what we need to know about this bleeping bleeping Keyspan.

Lynne

On 10 Oct 2010, at 01:42, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I've had to fall back on a blazie braille printer a time or two when we had a print job and our primary versapoint wasn't working.  Let me tell you, it was painful.
> Although the blazie did work, it didn't allow us to use the 11-11-1/2 paper, it only takes the 8.5x11 paper, and it's embossing speed is somewhere around 20-25 cps instead of the 60+ cps our versabraille gets.  I wasn't real happy with those results, especially since after about 10 pages or so, the blazie got overheated, and began missing lines/characters, we had to break the printing  tasks into several stages to get it done.  Since then, I've purchased a second versapoint, (now we have 3, though at the moment, 2 are nonfunctional) seems they have some rather delicate parts inside, and aren't all that simple to repair <sigh>
> But, either way, it sure beats hand brailling things which I've had to do a time or two as well, let me tell you, that's not fun. :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 02:20:40 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:20:40 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <D71F02C5-B30B-4531-B5BF-66F30E0E5B62@internode.on.net>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<D71F02C5-B30B-4531-B5BF-66F30E0E5B62@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <2E4874D3-CEF8-4334-B334-1734491A90B4@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 10 Oct 2010, at 01:54, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? I posted a document to the list some time ago which outlined the procedures and steps used to set things up though I think it was long before archives of the list were kept.
> 
It was probably long before Lynne came onto the scene.

> 
> On 10/10/2010, at 11:42 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:
> 
>> I've had to fall back on a blazie braille printer a time or two when we had a print job and our primary versapoint wasn't working.  Let me tell you, it was painful.
>> Although the blazie did work, it didn't allow us to use the 11-11-1/2 paper, it only takes the 8.5x11 paper, and it's embossing speed is somewhere around 20-25 cps instead of the 60+ cps our versabraille gets.  I wasn't real happy with those results, especially since after about 10 pages or so, the blazie got overheated, and began missing lines/characters, we had to break the printing  tasks into several stages to get it done.  Since then, I've purchased a second versapoint, (now we have 3, though at the moment, 2 are nonfunctional) seems they have some rather delicate parts inside, and aren't all that simple to repair <sigh>
>> But, either way, it sure beats hand brailling things which I've had to do a time or two as well, let me tell you, that's not fun. :)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 10 03:59:54 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 21:59:54 -0500
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E0D9E027-1153-496F-842B-A1FB2880C685@softcon.com>


On Oct 9, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> Gordon has an old 1973 vintage Perkins Brailler that he would love  
> to get fixed. But we can't find anywhere to get it done. I would  
> love to learn to use that.

I have no idea what year mine was made, but braillers haven't changed  
much over the past 30+ years.
When mine broke, here's what I did to fix it.

1. Flip the brailler upside down.
2. remove the dozen or so screws  holding the cardboard bottom on the  
brailler.
3. inspect the key connectors, and you'll notice that the ones that no  
longer work probably lost their rivets.  They're cheap pieces of junk,  
as are the arms used to connect them to the anchor points under the  
embossing head.
If the rivets are the only things broken, you can replace these with  
some heavy gauge wire.
I used bicycle wire, though since it was given to me many years ago,  
I'm not sure what gauge it is, or what part of the bicycle it comes  
from (brake cable maybe, though this stuff is smooth, not rough like  
the brake cables are when exposed)
Simply cut a half inch segment for each broken key, thread it through  
both the anchor point, and the flexible metal arm connecting the key  
to the embossing head, use pliers or (fingers if you're strong enough)  
and simply wrap the wires back around, and make them flat as possible,  
so you'll avoid poking into the cardboard when bottom cover is replaced.
Save the extra wire, and replace the cardboard cover, reinstall the  
screws, and you've got a 100 percent working brailler once again.
I would guess about half of my keys are patched using this method, and  
they are holding up nicely.
If the arms themselves are broken, you'll need to fabricate something  
(possibly using heavier gauge wire, molded plastic, or worse case  
scenario, apoxy).
Luckily, I've not had to do this, the arms inside the brailler are  
still functional, though some of them are slightly bent, but this  
doesn't seem to impair their functionality at all.
Don't know if this will help, but it should give you a starting point,  
and perhaps, it will give others the confidence to repair their own  
braillers. :)


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Oct 10 09:40:35 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:40:35 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <ABB5B1C9-4559-4B8C-B569-87C3A3925893@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat email forum that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Marvin Hunkin to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 10:37:26 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:37:26 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <E0D9E027-1153-496F-842B-A1FB2880C685@softcon.com>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E0D9E027-1153-496F-842B-A1FB2880C685@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <122F9D55-A032-4983-9D52-D8C0E297D3D4@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 10 Oct 2010, at 03:59, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? I have no idea what year mine was made, but braillers haven't changed much over the past 30+ years.

Gordon agrees with that. He says his has only been serviced once, back in 1976.

> ? When mine broke, here's what I did to fix it.
> 
Gordon's, (sorry, he says it is ours), is not broken in the same way as yours was. Ours has a broken transport mechanism which requires new components and total disassembly.

Gordon knows the inside of those things very well, and he could fix it himself if he had the spares.

Lynne


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Oct 10 11:29:25 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:29:25 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <F5E73EA3-7C59-458C-B4D7-962B4938AAF4@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Robert Peterson
to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 16:53:31 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:53:31 +0100
Subject: Bluetooth Cordless Telephones
Message-ID: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Does anybody by any chance have any experience with, and recommendations of, any bluetooth-enabled cordless telephones? We are currently in the process of switching landline providers, and we're also contemplating the possibility of changing our handsets. We currently use a Panasonic system; but it's just a very basic telephony solution with no additional audio outputs other than the basic handset with its digital answering machine.

I have looked briefly at, and have the user documentation for a Siemens SL765 bluetooth-enabled system. But before I do anything I'd like to sound out the various possibilities if anybody has any suggestions.

This time, we want to get it right; and I'm also looking at this from the perspective of usability for the visually impaired.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 17:04:51 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 03:04:51 +1100
Subject: Bluetooth Cordless Telephones
In-Reply-To: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B51753D6-CE17-4E29-91FE-C8A4DC404F6B@internode.on.net>

Howdy!

Strange you should mention those as I'm getting a Uniden cordless phone today and I hope it will be today, its been ordered and its in I just have to have it delivered but that's my problem.

Now by bluetooth enabled cordless telephones I take it you mean that the telephone can connect to bluetooth devices such as headphones, mobile phones etc, the advantages of these connections are obvious such as being able to copy contacts from mobile phone to handset, the use of bluetooth headphones etc but I doubt these phones would actually use bluetooth to communicate with each other or the base, if they did then range would hardly be affective <smile>.

I've given up on Panasonic phones long ago, I don't know whether its the case in the U.K. but it certainly was in Australia, models kept changing so frequently that dealers often had no idea what you were talking about.  For example you may see a model which looked appealing on the Panasonic web site only to discover that your local dealer knew nothing and neither did Panasonic.

Second reason I gave up on them was the flimbsy rubber membrane key pads, they started to get hard to press after a while.

I was recommended the Uniden phones 6 years ago and they're the phones I've been using ever since without a problem, my original cordless phone - a 2.4GHZ spread spectrum model - is still going strong though I'm going to have to replace it as the Time Capsule and the phone often have wrestling matches over who actually owns the 2.4GHZ spectrum in my house, its sorted after a little while when Time Capsule does its thing and moves to 5.8GHZ but the interveening time can be most entertaining, all sorts of background noise, other end not being able to hear what you say etc, lasts for about 2 minutes.

So these new Uniden phones I'm getting transmit well outside the 2.4GHZ or 5.8GHZ wireless bands and they use a technology called X-R-DECT, I don't know what this means but I do know that the phones are guaranteed not to interfere with any other wi-fi networks or wireless devices, quality of transmission and reception is supposed to be very good and the phones have repeaters in them to give them that extra range.

Another reason I chose Uniden over Panasonic was their commitment to those who are blind and visually impaired, these phones are "hearing aid compatible" and they're extra loud with their speakerphone capabilities just like my present phone is.  uniden have a phone with TTS functionality available in Australia which has extra loud volumes and rings for those who are hearing impaired.

Any way have fun.


On 11/10/2010, at 2:53 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> Does anybody by any chance have any experience with, and recommendations of, any bluetooth-enabled cordless telephones? We are currently in the process of switching landline providers, and we're also contemplating the possibility of changing our handsets. We currently use a Panasonic system; but it's just a very basic telephony solution with no additional audio outputs other than the basic handset with its digital answering machine.
> 
> I have looked briefly at, and have the user documentation for a Siemens SL765 bluetooth-enabled system. But before I do anything I'd like to sound out the various possibilities if anybody has any suggestions.
> 
> This time, we want to get it right; and I'm also looking at this from the perspective of usability for the visually impaired.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 10 17:18:54 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:18:54 -0500
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <122F9D55-A032-4983-9D52-D8C0E297D3D4@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E0D9E027-1153-496F-842B-A1FB2880C685@softcon.com>
	<122F9D55-A032-4983-9D52-D8C0E297D3D4@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4542823F-B49D-442D-9E3E-B425A9AAE0A9@softcon.com>


On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:37 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> Gordon's, (sorry, he says it is ours), is not broken in the same way  
> as yours was. Ours has a broken transport mechanism which requires  
> new components and total disassembly.
>
> Gordon knows the inside of those things very well, and he could fix  
> it himself if he had the spares.

Wow, that just bites.  I have no idea what the inside of the transport  
mechanism looks like, thankfully mine hasn't misbehaved that badly  
yet, and hopefully won't.  I don't use it much, except for brailling  
card games the kids decide we need to play, and very occassionally for  
manually brailling board books (if they're small enough) for blind  
children/parents.
I've brailled maybe 3 pages in the last 2 years, (besides the tastes  
like chicken card game) so that tells you how much use mine gets. :)
Other than a little grease needed on the bars that the embossing head  
slides along, mine is still working just as well as the day I got it  
(minus those useless rivets of course)
These things were built in an era when quality was at least a little  
bit important, though they were definitely built by the lowest bidder,  
as evidenced by the cheap quality of components used in them.   
Surprisingly though, even with such cheap parts, they seem to hold up  
surprisingly well.

When I was at the ACB convention a couple years ago, I ran into a  
company that had "redesigned" the brailler to make it easier to use.   
What did they do to it?
Almost nothing, put larger handles on the sides for rolling in/out the  
paper, and slightly increased the size of the tabs on top for  
unlocking/unlocking the paper after it was inserted, and made the  
embossing head out of plastic instead of metal.  Otherwise, the thing  
was identical to the one I have here.  Quite disappointing if you ask  
me.
What I had in mind was something that was perhaps an inch or two tall,  
completely flat (except for the keys on it's top) and a slot where you  
insert your paper, and it gets pulled through back to front, and (if  
so desired) it could be plugged into a usb port for direct interfacing  
to the computer for brailling materials.
It would be something akin to the blazie printer, extremely light use,  
smaller than current braillers, and just about the same price they've  
always been, and then nearly anyone could afford to purchase (or have  
purchased for them) a braille printer for nor normal daily-type  
individual use.
After I explained what I expected  to these folks, they got all  
excited, and said they could probably do that, if there was enough  
demand.
Enough demand? Are you kidding me?
What kind of nonsense is that?
It really goes to show these adaptive technology companies haven't got  
a clue what the folks they're supposed to be serving actually want.
<sigh>
If I knew some electric engineers, and perhaps a graphic designer, I'd  
build the damned things myself and sell them directly to the end users.
<sigh>
Ahh well, one of these days. :)

From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Oct 10 20:03:11 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:03:11 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <BE6329BC-6F3C-4EA9-8E00-396634F2800B@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Chris R. Johnson
to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Oct 10 22:51:18 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:51:18 +0100
Subject: Bluetooth Cordless Telephones
In-Reply-To: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2FE48510-1225-4213-8B3E-CBB5D1E5CB16@blueyonder.co.uk>

Lynn,

I have the Siemans SL565 handsets and the bluetooth works a treat, so I am sure the newer models will be fine too.  It will work with Gordon's iCom no problem.  However I did buy these handsets when I had vision.  They are not exactly blind friendly, but I can still use them to answer and make calls and access the answering machine.  Where I do struggle is accessing the built in address book and caller ID as there is no text to speech built in.  I am not aware of any DECT phones that support that.  But this is no major problem  as I keep all my phone numbers on my Mac / iPhone.  The handsets also have a vibrate facility which is useful, loud ringers, decent volume ear piece (when turned up) and good stands for the handsets to sit in. 

My only other gripe that I have because I am unable to see, is the fact there is no audio alert to indicate there is an answer phone message.  Instead the handset flashes red.  But you can pick up messages from any handset, and screen them from any handset and also transfer calls from handset to handset and there is a good internal comms system too.  The phones have been very reliable.

As these phones are very popular in business and retail, prepare to jump out of your seat next time you are at the NHS or local ASDA store or whatever and you hear the phone ring, you can bet your bottom dollar it is a Siemans handset and you will automatically think it is your home phone ringing!

Chris 
On 10 Oct 2010, at 16:53, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> Does anybody by any chance have any experience with, and recommendations of, any bluetooth-enabled cordless telephones? We are currently in the process of switching landline providers, and we're also contemplating the possibility of changing our handsets. We currently use a Panasonic system; but it's just a very basic telephony solution with no additional audio outputs other than the basic handset with its digital answering machine.
> 
> I have looked briefly at, and have the user documentation for a Siemens SL765 bluetooth-enabled system. But before I do anything I'd like to sound out the various possibilities if anybody has any suggestions.
> 
> This time, we want to get it right; and I'm also looking at this from the perspective of usability for the visually impaired.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From mstores at indiana.edu  Sun Oct 10 23:43:33 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 18:43:33 -0400
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101010184333.bs7v6fmk2ogsswcc@webmail.iu.edu>

I am shocked there's no place to repair Perkins braillers in the UK. I 
still have mine, and still use it from time to time. There are lots of 
Braille repair places in the States ranging from one person to 
businesses that do it. I sure hope you can find someone closer to you 
to do it.

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Travis
>
> Actually, as somebody who has eyes, I would *love* to learn to
> hand-Braille. The first thing I ever did with Braille was sit down
> with a hand frame and stylus and write Gordon a very soppy birthday
> card for his birthday the first year we were together.
>
> He had told us all nicely not to bother wasting money on birthday
> cards that he couldn't read. So I decided I'd waste my money on one
> he could read.
>
> I sat down with a Braille prima which has printed characters above
> each Braille letter and I pain-stakingly worked out each letter of
> what I wanted to say and wrote it.
>
> Gordon has an old 1973 vintage Perkins Brailler that he would love to
> get fixed. But we can't find anywhere to get it done. I would love to
> learn to use that.
>
> We have an Index Everest embosser sitting here doing sweet fanny
> adams at the moment, because of the fact that our one and only PC
> broke down yesterday. It's a laptop and the chances of getting it
> fixed are less than a million in one.
>
> It suddenly decided to display rainbow colours instead of what it
> should be displaying and it's not a software problem because it does
> it from the moment you power it up. So that's the end of that.
>
> So now we have no option other than to try a bit harder to find
> somebody who will tell us what we need to know about this bleeping
> bleeping Keyspan.
>
> Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 23:49:05 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:49:05 +1100
Subject: Braille Writer Repairs
In-Reply-To: <20101010184333.bs7v6fmk2ogsswcc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101010184333.bs7v6fmk2ogsswcc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <95070E7A-050A-4EC3-A0B3-4E813752E4A4@internode.on.net>

ep, we have quite a few repair places for Perkins Braille Writers now, they're run by individuals who have learnt to repair them over the years and they do a good job, still have one.


On 11/10/2010, at 9:43 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> I am shocked there's no place to repair Perkins braillers in the UK. I still have mine, and still use it from time to time. There are lots of Braille repair places in the States ranging from one person to businesses that do it. I sure hope you can find someone closer to you to do it.
> 
> Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:
> 
>> Hello Travis
>> 
>> Actually, as somebody who has eyes, I would *love* to learn to
>> hand-Braille. The first thing I ever did with Braille was sit down
>> with a hand frame and stylus and write Gordon a very soppy birthday
>> card for his birthday the first year we were together.
>> 
>> He had told us all nicely not to bother wasting money on birthday
>> cards that he couldn't read. So I decided I'd waste my money on one
>> he could read.
>> 
>> I sat down with a Braille prima which has printed characters above
>> each Braille letter and I pain-stakingly worked out each letter of
>> what I wanted to say and wrote it.
>> 
>> Gordon has an old 1973 vintage Perkins Brailler that he would love to
>> get fixed. But we can't find anywhere to get it done. I would love to
>> learn to use that.
>> 
>> We have an Index Everest embosser sitting here doing sweet fanny
>> adams at the moment, because of the fact that our one and only PC
>> broke down yesterday. It's a laptop and the chances of getting it
>> fixed are less than a million in one.
>> 
>> It suddenly decided to display rainbow colours instead of what it
>> should be displaying and it's not a software problem because it does
>> it from the moment you power it up. So that's the end of that.
>> 
>> So now we have no option other than to try a bit harder to find
>> somebody who will tell us what we need to know about this bleeping
>> bleeping Keyspan.
>> 
>> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 10 23:51:36 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:51:36 +1100
Subject: APH Braille Writer
Message-ID: <CFCDCB3E-0DA0-4CE8-BAC9-1467AF2CEB9E@internode.on.net>

Hi!

These aren't available out here yet, has anyone in the States had experience with one ? Its supposed to be one hell of a lot less noisy than the Perkins and that can only be a good thing <smile>.

I think the Electric Perkins must have ben about the most noisy  devices  ever invented by man <smile>.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 11 05:28:18 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:28:18 -0700
Subject: The Most Disruptive iPhone Yet # 
Message-ID: <C36187C3-04D8-4864-9AB2-93900B8C0A38@gmail.com>

All I'll say is we've been hearing this for months and VZ says no, then yes, then no and so forth. Read more: http://bit.ly/bX6qb8

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 11 13:28:54 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:28:54 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <4542823F-B49D-442D-9E3E-B425A9AAE0A9@softcon.com>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E0D9E027-1153-496F-842B-A1FB2880C685@softcon.com>
	<122F9D55-A032-4983-9D52-D8C0E297D3D4@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<4542823F-B49D-442D-9E3E-B425A9AAE0A9@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <F7320D54-E816-4B03-A070-6768FAF01C75@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 10 Oct 2010, at 17:18, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? Wow, that just bites.  I have no idea what the inside of the transport mechanism looks like, thankfully mine hasn't misbehaved that badly yet, and hopefully won't.  I don't use it much, except for brailling card games the kids decide we need to play, and very occassionally for manually brailling board books (if they're small enough) for blind children/parents.
> I've brailled maybe 3 pages in the last 2 years, (besides the tastes like chicken card game) so that tells you how much use mine gets. :)
> Other than a little grease needed on the bars that the embossing head slides along, mine is still working just as well as the day I got it (minus those useless rivets of course)
> These things were built in an era when quality was at least a little bit important, though they were definitely built by the lowest bidder, as evidenced by the cheap quality of components used in them.  Surprisingly though, even with such cheap parts, they seem to hold up surprisingly well.
> 
In ours, somehow the bar that secures the paper as the roller turns has bent. It's held in place by rivets so you need to replace the entire assembly in order to replace that one bar.

It is only a problem because there are time when we could do with being able to Braille some of the 3x6 inch self-adhesive labels used to label some items.

We do have 2 dymo machines, and those work fine. But their are times when the Perkis would be very useful.

> ? When I was at the ACB convention a couple years ago, I ran into a company that had "redesigned" the brailler to make it easier to use.  What did they do to it?

I've removed the rest of your post, but will respond to it.

That is just plain greed. The price of one of those machines is high enough as it is. Gordon's is in new condition externally, those things were built to last.

I will contact RNIB to see if they do repairs.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 11 13:31:46 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:31:46 +0100
Subject: Bluetooth Cordless Telephones
In-Reply-To: <2FE48510-1225-4213-8B3E-CBB5D1E5CB16@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2FE48510-1225-4213-8B3E-CBB5D1E5CB16@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <451786DF-6E21-4CDF-99A4-A8BE1F2F24E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 10 Oct 2010, at 22:51, Chris Moore wrote:

> ? I have the Siemans SL565 handsets and the bluetooth works a treat, so I am sure the newer models will be fine too.  It will work with Gordon's iCom no problem.  However I did buy these handsets when I had vision.  They are not exactly blind friendly, but I can still use them to answer and make calls and access the answering machine.  Where I do struggle is accessing the built in address book and caller ID as there is no text to speech built in.  I am not aware of any DECT phones that support that.  But this is no major problem  as I keep all my phone numbers on my Mac / iPhone.  The handsets also have a vibrate facility which is useful, loud ringers, decent volume ear piece (when turned up) and good stands for the handsets to sit in. 
> 
That's exactly the model I'm looking at. Where did you get it from? Perhaps off list would be better for this.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 11 13:33:43 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:33:43 +0100
Subject: Pges, I give credit where its due
In-Reply-To: <20101010184333.bs7v6fmk2ogsswcc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <BF53D893-D718-4723-82FA-F41BDAA9C1C8@internode.on.net>
	<DB055986-AD7B-4B4C-9E01-3871C5EC514A@mac-access.net>
	<04BF732D-0C9B-46ED-B9D3-E2DDF79A192D@internode.on.net>
	<ECA13969-0BFB-40CD-8B2B-7AC72899F8E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<432B9D7B-3947-4AE4-A5CC-2171BBC7B6D2@softcon.com>
	<F3398EA7-FD8E-4A59-ADC4-0D15385F370B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101010184333.bs7v6fmk2ogsswcc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <8991BC6A-6B19-48B8-BE45-9DA56AD2CDAC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 10 Oct 2010, at 23:43, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? I am shocked there's no place to repair Perkins braillers in the UK. I still have mine, and still use it from time to time. There are lots of Braille repair places in the States ranging from one person to businesses that do it. I sure hope you can find someone closer to you to do it.

I hope the RNIB will do the work; but it's not exactly proving easy to get info/

Lynne


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Oct 11 14:05:29 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:29 +0100
Subject: Bluetooth Cordless Telephones
In-Reply-To: <451786DF-6E21-4CDF-99A4-A8BE1F2F24E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <A1C07AB1-82E5-41E9-865E-5BC60A5C16DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2FE48510-1225-4213-8B3E-CBB5D1E5CB16@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<451786DF-6E21-4CDF-99A4-A8BE1F2F24E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1453970D-FB44-433D-90E1-60520009A18E@blueyonder.co.uk>

I bought mine about 2 years ago (maybe longer) from ebay at a very good price for the triple pack.  The products were brand new but half the retail price.

I think you can also get them from Amazon.
On 11 Oct 2010, at 13:31, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Chris
> 
> On 10 Oct 2010, at 22:51, Chris Moore wrote:
> 
>> ? I have the Siemans SL565 handsets and the bluetooth works a treat, so I am sure the newer models will be fine too.  It will work with Gordon's iCom no problem.  However I did buy these handsets when I had vision.  They are not exactly blind friendly, but I can still use them to answer and make calls and access the answering machine.  Where I do struggle is accessing the built in address book and caller ID as there is no text to speech built in.  I am not aware of any DECT phones that support that.  But this is no major problem  as I keep all my phone numbers on my Mac / iPhone.  The handsets also have a vibrate facility which is useful, loud ringers, decent volume ear piece (when turned up) and good stands for the handsets to sit in. 
>> 
> That's exactly the model I'm looking at. Where did you get it from? Perhaps off list would be better for this.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Oct 11 15:02:37 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:02:37 -0500
Subject: Braille Technology
Message-ID: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>

	A recent message on this list expressed a wish for a
Braille writer that was thin, relatively inexpensive and able to
interface to a computer. This is a topic near and dear to my
heart and I wish I had an answer that was better than what I am
about to say.

	The problem in getting affordable Braille embossers is
electromechanical. The electronics that could handle Braille and
Grade 2 translation have been with us in the main stream for
almost 40 years and definitely 30.

	What's keeping this stuff so expensive and difficult is
the mechanical energy it takes to make a dot. I am quite
serious.

	If you ever used a slate and stylus, you know it takes a
couple of pounds, maybe more, to push that stylus point hard
enough to make a dot.

	Electrical devices like Braille embossers have to push a
stylus-like device hard enough to accomplish the same thing and
that is harder than you might think.

	The most common way to turn electrical energy in to
physical force is a device called a magnetic solenoid and is a
coil of wire wound on a hollow core so it can magnetically pull
in an iron rod.

	A solenoid physically big enough to generate enough
force to make Braille dots is surprisingly large compared with
the dots.

	There haven't yet been any devices developed that do a
better job than solenoids and you can not fit 6 or 8 of them in
to a Braille cell so every Braille embosser today is a load of
clever mechanical compromises and precision machine work, more
like a modern conventional gasoline-powered car. It may have
computers under the hood, but the engine itself would not be
that foreign to Henry Ford.

	Refreshable Braille displays have somewhat the same
mechanical issues but at least they do not have to develop as
much mechanical force as embossers.

	Their reason for stellar price tags is that nobody has
figured out a way to make thousands of dots rise and fall
without having to handle each dot separately.

	Modern visual displays have a matrix of so many rows and
so many columns and one can light up any part of the display
just by energizing one row and one column. Braille displays may
certainly have rows and columns, but each dot is precisely
manufactured and installed one by one.

	Instead of solenoids, some display use piezo electric
reeds which are materials that slightly change shape when
electrically stimulated. Even still, somebody or some very
precise factory process must build each dot one at a time.
That is the most expensive way to build anything.

	There are some interesting technologies that may change
the game on at least Braille displays. There are fluids that
change consistency when electrically charged. A matrix full of one
of these fluids might be able to lift pins up that should be
dots while the rest would fall back down. Such a display would
be easier to manufacture and repair and thus cheaper to own.

Martin McCormick

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 11 17:14:59 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 03:14:59 +1100
Subject: Braille Technology
In-Reply-To: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2969A31C-FEBA-4714-9071-BE2DF2AB3844@internode.on.net>

Yep I appreciate where you're coming from here and it explains why the Mountbattin Braille Writer comes with an optional 10 amp switch mode power supply, that way the battery can be kept fully charged whilst the unit is embossing Braille, as I outlined in a previous message you'll only get 20 pages of embossing on batteries on high-speed mode and that's even less if you're using heavy card stock, Braille labels or other media which requires extra force.

For everyone's information, the replacement cost for an embossing head for a Mountbattin Braille Writer is $500.00 Australian and I don't think that too bad given the cost of the machine and the work that the embossing head has to do, I took out an extended warrantee on the head <smile>.


On 12/10/2010, at 1:02 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	A recent message on this list expressed a wish for a
> Braille writer that was thin, relatively inexpensive and able to
> interface to a computer. This is a topic near and dear to my
> heart and I wish I had an answer that was better than what I am
> about to say.
> 
> 	The problem in getting affordable Braille embossers is
> electromechanical. The electronics that could handle Braille and
> Grade 2 translation have been with us in the main stream for
> almost 40 years and definitely 30.
> 
> 	What's keeping this stuff so expensive and difficult is
> the mechanical energy it takes to make a dot. I am quite
> serious.
> 
> 	If you ever used a slate and stylus, you know it takes a
> couple of pounds, maybe more, to push that stylus point hard
> enough to make a dot.
> 
> 	Electrical devices like Braille embossers have to push a
> stylus-like device hard enough to accomplish the same thing and
> that is harder than you might think.
> 
> 	The most common way to turn electrical energy in to
> physical force is a device called a magnetic solenoid and is a
> coil of wire wound on a hollow core so it can magnetically pull
> in an iron rod.
> 
> 	A solenoid physically big enough to generate enough
> force to make Braille dots is surprisingly large compared with
> the dots.
> 
> 	There haven't yet been any devices developed that do a
> better job than solenoids and you can not fit 6 or 8 of them in
> to a Braille cell so every Braille embosser today is a load of
> clever mechanical compromises and precision machine work, more
> like a modern conventional gasoline-powered car. It may have
> computers under the hood, but the engine itself would not be
> that foreign to Henry Ford.
> 
> 	Refreshable Braille displays have somewhat the same
> mechanical issues but at least they do not have to develop as
> much mechanical force as embossers.
> 
> 	Their reason for stellar price tags is that nobody has
> figured out a way to make thousands of dots rise and fall
> without having to handle each dot separately.
> 
> 	Modern visual displays have a matrix of so many rows and
> so many columns and one can light up any part of the display
> just by energizing one row and one column. Braille displays may
> certainly have rows and columns, but each dot is precisely
> manufactured and installed one by one.
> 
> 	Instead of solenoids, some display use piezo electric
> reeds which are materials that slightly change shape when
> electrically stimulated. Even still, somebody or some very
> precise factory process must build each dot one at a time.
> That is the most expensive way to build anything.
> 
> 	There are some interesting technologies that may change
> the game on at least Braille displays. There are fluids that
> change consistency when electrically charged. A matrix full of one
> of these fluids might be able to lift pins up that should be
> dots while the rest would fall back down. Such a display would
> be easier to manufacture and repair and thus cheaper to own.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Oct 11 18:11:05 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:11:05 -0500
Subject: Braille Technology 
Message-ID: <201010111711.o9BHB5HU075208@x.it.okstate.edu>

	It is actually pretty impressive that it does 20 pages
before running out of steam.

	I suspect that any major change in Braille display or
Braille writer technology may involve non-linear processes.
There are some metals that suddenly change shape when you heat
or cool them past a critical temperature. Some substances like
water expand when cooled and do so with tremendous force. Think
burst pipes and structural failures due to freezing.

	No, I am not suggesting that we freeze ice and thaw it
to make Braille print heads, but other substances have similar
characteristics that trip at different temperatures.

	I always keep half an ear open when I hear about new
materials that do interesting things. The next leap forward in
Braille technology will probably be something that was meant for
some other purpose but also makes good Braille.

Dane Trethowan writes:
> Yep I appreciate where you're coming from here and it explains why the 
> Mountbattin Braille Writer comes with an optional 10 amp switch mode 
> power supply, that way the battery can be kept fully charged whilst the 
> unit is embossing Braille, as I outlined in a previous message you'll 
> only get 20 pages of embossing on batteries on high-speed mode and that's 
> even less if you're using heavy card stock, Braille labels or other media 
> which requires extra force.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 11 18:31:09 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 04:31:09 +1100
Subject: Braille Technology 
In-Reply-To: <201010111711.o9BHB5HU075208@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010111711.o9BHB5HU075208@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <DD22E105-B385-42A4-A349-B43B18FC1AD0@internode.on.net>

I understand that Quantum Technology who develop, design and manifacture the Mountbattin Braille Writer are indeed working on a quieter and more power efficient embossing head though I've no idea what they're experimenting with.  I know that quite a percentage of the profit on any Moutbattin Braille Writer goes to fund the research into this sort of thing so like you I hope this will bring good results in the not to distant future.

I think for the size the Moutbattin is, the machine being able to emboss anything at all is quite an achievement.

When the Moutbattin was first marketed some 22 years ago, the machine came standard with a 1 Amp plug pack, whilst this was more than sufficient to charge the internal lead acid battery when the machine was not in use it certainly could never produce the current required when embossing thus batteries went flat quickly and they took a while to charge them back to full capacity so you had to take a rather long break from embossing <smile>.

Now I'm not an expert on the subject of batteries but one thing I know about sealed lead-acid batteries is that they don't like being flattened and they work idealy when they're near to fully charged.

The 10 amp  Switch mode power supply was available as an extra option for the Moutbattin at the time but they were hugely expensive, I'm talking about $400.00 Australian so it just wasn't economical to include these with the standard Mountbattin package.

Now these switch mode supplies sell for less than a tenth of the price they were 22 years ago so the 1 amp plug pack  idea has been thrown on the scrap heap and a 10 amp switch mode supply included as standard with every Moutbattin Braille Writer.

It should be noted that the socket for the 1 amp plug pack is still on the side of the machine  if you should ever want to use one which is dead handy, if your switch mode supply should stop working for whatever reason then you can just go down to your local electronics store and buy a 12 volt centre positive 1 amp supply, plug it into your Mountbattin and keep the battery charged.

As well as the USB port the Mountbattin still has many of its original serial and paralel ports so the device can communicate with new and old devices along, from the PC to a small note taker to old machines that dump data out of their serial ports.


On 12/10/2010, at 4:11 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	It is actually pretty impressive that it does 20 pages
> before running out of steam.
> 
> 	I suspect that any major change in Braille display or
> Braille writer technology may involve non-linear processes.
> There are some metals that suddenly change shape when you heat
> or cool them past a critical temperature. Some substances like
> water expand when cooled and do so with tremendous force. Think
> burst pipes and structural failures due to freezing.
> 
> 	No, I am not suggesting that we freeze ice and thaw it
> to make Braille print heads, but other substances have similar
> characteristics that trip at different temperatures.
> 
> 	I always keep half an ear open when I hear about new
> materials that do interesting things. The next leap forward in
> Braille technology will probably be something that was meant for
> some other purpose but also makes good Braille.
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 11 18:37:51 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 04:37:51 +1100
Subject: Braille Technology 
In-Reply-To: <201010111711.o9BHB5HU075208@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010111711.o9BHB5HU075208@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <1F8CE5E5-0762-4FED-877A-77EF278CBB42@internode.on.net>

I understand that Quantum Technology who develop, design and manufacture the Mountbattin Braille Writer are indeed working on a quieter and more power efficient embossing head though I've no idea what they're experimenting with.  I know that quite a percentage of the profit on any Moutbattin Braille Writer goes to fund the research into this sort of thing so like you I hope this will bring good results in the not to distant future.

I think for the size the Moutbattin is, the machine being able to emboss anything at all is quite an achievement.

When the Moutbattin was first marketed some 22 years ago, the machine came standard with a 1 Amp plug pack, whilst this was more than sufficient to charge the internal lead acid battery when the machine was not in use it certainly could never produce the current required when embossing thus batteries went flat quickly and they took a while to charge them back to full capacity so you had to take a rather long break from embossing <smile>.

Now I'm not an expert on the subject of batteries but one thing I know about sealed lead-acid batteries is that they don't like being flattened and they work ideally when they're near to fully charged.

The 10 amp  Switch mode power supply was available as an extra option for the Moutbattin at the time but they were hugely expensive, I'm talking about $400.00 Australian so it just wasn't economical to include these with the standard Mountbattin package.

Now these switch mode supplies sell for less than a tenth of the price they were 22 years ago so the 1 amp plug pack  idea has been thrown on the scrap heap and a 10 amp switch mode supply included as standard with every Moutbattin Braille Writer.

It should be noted that the socket for the 1 amp plug pack is still on the side of the machine  if you should ever want to use one which is dead handy, if your switch mode supply should stop working for whatever reason then you can just go down to your local electronics store and buy a 12 volt centre positive 1 amp supply, plug it into your Mountbattin and keep the battery charged.

As well as the USB port the Mountbattin still has many of its original serial and parallel ports so the device can communicate with new and old devices along, from the PC to a small note taker to old machines that dump data out of their serial ports.


On 12/10/2010, at 4:11 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	It is actually pretty impressive that it does 20 pages
> before running out of steam.
> 
> 	I suspect that any major change in Braille display or
> Braille writer technology may involve non-linear processes.
> There are some metals that suddenly change shape when you heat
> or cool them past a critical temperature. Some substances like
> water expand when cooled and do so with tremendous force. Think
> burst pipes and structural failures due to freezing.
> 
> 	No, I am not suggesting that we freeze ice and thaw it
> to make Braille print heads, but other substances have similar
> characteristics that trip at different temperatures.
> 
> 	I always keep half an ear open when I hear about new
> materials that do interesting things. The next leap forward in
> Braille technology will probably be something that was meant for
> some other purpose but also makes good Braille.
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Oct 11 20:48:55 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:48:55 -0500
Subject: The design Of Light Detectors 
Message-ID: <201010111948.o9BJmtoi076634@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Here is a possible solution to those looking for a much
better light detector. I haven't tried it myself but I ran
across the URL to the article while looking at some other lists
I am on. I do not know if this application costs money or if so,
how much, but it sounds like just the kind of thing that Lynn
was looking for.

	A couple of things I wonder about are what does the
application do when it sees a complex picture with many colors.

	The article mentions that it reads the color in 6
hexadecimal digits as well as assigns a name to the color which
is a really neat idea. There is a system used in graphic design
called the PMS or Pantone Matching System. It is a method for
standardizing colors in paint and graphical design so that one
could send specifications to a factory in, say, China for a
particular shade of orange and you would get back exactly what
you ordered.

	I don't know if the Iphone app described here uses the
PMS method or if it just assigns relative values to the RGB
components it sees, but even if that is all it does, it is
useful. I wonder what it would do with wire colors? They would
be tricky for many reasons. Many wires have a predominant color
plus a secondary stripe called a tracer so the "red wire" might
be red with a black tracer while another red wire might be red
with a green or some other color tracer. Trust me. you don't
want to mix them up.

 Here is the url to the magazine article.

http://behindthecurtain.us/2010/06/12/my-first-week-with-the-iphone/

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Hello Martin
> 

> Are you really saying that an ascending and descending buzzer is 
> adequate? I can see, and I know that I wouldn't be happy with that 
> primitive level of information.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 11 22:29:28 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:29:28 -0700
Subject: MagSafe heading to iPad and iPhone? 
Message-ID: <97D3DBCB-CB1E-41BB-887B-7DC4D5A3AAAD@gmail.com>

This would be cool as all get out! yeah! except my portable battery pack would not be able to handle this as there is no magsafe tip. Read more: http://bit.ly/d1YFpS

From Eddie.montanez at verizon.net  Mon Oct 11 23:11:01 2010
From: Eddie.montanez at verizon.net (Eddie)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:11:01 -0400
Subject: Miniguide
In-Reply-To: <20101008105632.AC4D.225DF185@internode.on.net>
References: <20101008105632.AC4D.225DF185@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <003a01cb6991$309f9410$91debc30$@montanez@verizon.net>

Sorry for the cross posting.  Has anybody tried the Miniguide? I am thinking
of getting it and I am wondering if anybody has tried it and would care to
share there opinion or if anybody knows of a similar device which might be
better or sheeper then this unit.  Any information would be greatly
appreciatted.

Detect obstacles in the palm of your hand with the 2 ounce ultrasonic
Miniguide.

Augment information from other mobility aids, like the cane or dog
guide,with obstacle-detection by the Miniguide from 1.5 to 26 feet. 

The Miniguide is 3 inches long, 1.4 inches wide and .75 inches thick
including the single 123A battery. Two sensors covered by mesh at the front
of the unit send and receive the detection signals. Durable plastic casing
covers the rest of the unit. 

The Miniguide uses ultrasonic echo-location to detect objects up to 8 meters
away. The aid vibrates to indicate the distance to objects - the faster the
vibration rate the nearer the object. 

The aid utilizes the latest electronics to provide excellent robustness,
reliability and battery life. The batteries normally last for many months. 

A single push button* is used to switch the aid on or off and also change
settings. The aid has various modes and options. The main modes are: 

26 feet (8 meters) 
13 feet (4 meters) 
6.5 feet (2 meters) 
3 feet (1 meter) 
1.5 feet (half meter) 
* The double push button model, Miniguide US is available exclusively from
American Printing House for the Blind and can be purchased with school quota
funds. 

Cane and guide dog users have found that the Miniguide has assisted them in
many ways, including: 

Avoiding obstacles such as parked cars, poles and street furniture. 
Detecting overhanging obstacles such as tree branches. 
Locating a person at a sales counter. 
Locating the end of a line. 
Locating doorways, gaps and determining if elevator doors are open. 
Navigating around tables, chairs and office environments. 
Important Message
The Miniguide is only intended as an accessory to the more traditional aids
such as the white cane and guide dog. The Miniguide is not a replacement for
these primary aids, it should only be used as a secondary aid. 

The Miniguide can not detect drop offs. So please rely on your primary aid
in areas where drop offs might be present, for example, railway stations,
near stairs and so on. 

People should only use the Miniguide once they have read and understood the
instructions, as the instructions include important information and warnings
about its use. People who may have difficulty understanding the instructions
should only use the aid under expert supervision. Children should only use
the aid under adult supervision. 
 

 
C Sendero Group LLC, 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.
Sendero Group . 429 F Street, Suite 4 . Davis, CA 95616
Phone: 530-757-6800 . Fax: 530-757-6830
 




From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 11 23:51:42 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:51:42 -0700
Subject: Braille Technology
In-Reply-To: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2C8D2751-4793-48BE-AEBE-7C9E34A2710B@gmail.com>

 There is also haptics but I hve not looked in to that for a while. I had an article on it at one time but lost it in a mail crash. lol!

Just something else to chew on.

S
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	A recent message on this list expressed a wish for a
> Braille writer that was thin, relatively inexpensive and able to
> interface to a computer. This is a topic near and dear to my
> heart and I wish I had an answer that was better than what I am
> about to say.
> 
> 	The problem in getting affordable Braille embossers is
> electromechanical. The electronics that could handle Braille and
> Grade 2 translation have been with us in the main stream for
> almost 40 years and definitely 30.
> 
> 	What's keeping this stuff so expensive and difficult is
> the mechanical energy it takes to make a dot. I am quite
> serious.
> 
> 	If you ever used a slate and stylus, you know it takes a
> couple of pounds, maybe more, to push that stylus point hard
> enough to make a dot.
> 
> 	Electrical devices like Braille embossers have to push a
> stylus-like device hard enough to accomplish the same thing and
> that is harder than you might think.
> 
> 	The most common way to turn electrical energy in to
> physical force is a device called a magnetic solenoid and is a
> coil of wire wound on a hollow core so it can magnetically pull
> in an iron rod.
> 
> 	A solenoid physically big enough to generate enough
> force to make Braille dots is surprisingly large compared with
> the dots.
> 
> 	There haven't yet been any devices developed that do a
> better job than solenoids and you can not fit 6 or 8 of them in
> to a Braille cell so every Braille embosser today is a load of
> clever mechanical compromises and precision machine work, more
> like a modern conventional gasoline-powered car. It may have
> computers under the hood, but the engine itself would not be
> that foreign to Henry Ford.
> 
> 	Refreshable Braille displays have somewhat the same
> mechanical issues but at least they do not have to develop as
> much mechanical force as embossers.
> 
> 	Their reason for stellar price tags is that nobody has
> figured out a way to make thousands of dots rise and fall
> without having to handle each dot separately.
> 
> 	Modern visual displays have a matrix of so many rows and
> so many columns and one can light up any part of the display
> just by energizing one row and one column. Braille displays may
> certainly have rows and columns, but each dot is precisely
> manufactured and installed one by one.
> 
> 	Instead of solenoids, some display use piezo electric
> reeds which are materials that slightly change shape when
> electrically stimulated. Even still, somebody or some very
> precise factory process must build each dot one at a time.
> That is the most expensive way to build anything.
> 
> 	There are some interesting technologies that may change
> the game on at least Braille displays. There are fluids that
> change consistency when electrically charged. A matrix full of one
> of these fluids might be able to lift pins up that should be
> dots while the rest would fall back down. Such a display would
> be easier to manufacture and repair and thus cheaper to own.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Oct 12 01:46:30 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:46:30 -0500
Subject: Braille Technology
In-Reply-To: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010111402.o9BE2bC1073468@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <015AAFBE-9430-40FB-A3B8-598A2C59519D@softcon.com>

I apologize in advance, but I beg to differ with the  conventional  
wisdom that pushing dots up/down is expensive to replicate, and that's  
why braillers are expensive (especially when handled electronically.
The technology to do this has been around for literally hundreds of  
years.  In fact, the very first printing press did exactly this.  It  
was setup by hand instead of electronically, (placing the letters on  
the bar) and filling them with ink, but the actual dropping of the bar  
onto the paper process hasn't changed since Gutenburg invented the  
printing press.
There's nno reason in the world why the same techniques couldn't be  
adapted for modern-day use.
I swear, if I had an electrical/mechanical engineer contact somewhere,  
I would produce so many gadgets that folks say are impossible, I'd be  
a freaking millionaire.  Yes, punching holes in paper takes pressure,  
but gravity is your friend.
No reason whatsoever why you can't suspend the printing bar a inch or  
two above the paper, have electronic hole punch type pins pushed into  
the points of contact for the dots that need to be pressed into the  
paper (in reverse of course) and then just lock them into place, and  
drop the bar, adding additional pressure if necessary for thicker paper.
Honestly, I think that every since the computer age got ushered in,  
folks have completely forgotten there's cuch a thing as mechanical  
processes.  How in the world do you think the first computer programs  
were written.  It was done with punch cards.
Braille printing isn't a whole lot different from the old card  
punches, just a question of design to shape the pins doing the punching.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Oct 12 23:58:03 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:58:03 +1100
Subject: Making books for the blind - Late Night Live - 26 August 2010
Message-ID: <BBE54189-2D74-4C79-891A-189618F24FDE@internode.on.net>

An interview on Late Night Live concerning the Iphone app Daisy Worm and the narrating of out of copyright - freely available - books.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2994332.htm


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Oct 13 01:25:54 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:25:54 -0500
Subject: more ways to make braille printers cheaply
Message-ID: <5F70F613-5E98-463F-95B2-1D903E70B8A0@softcon.com>

Just thought I'd go ahead and post about the other methods I've been  
trying to get assistance with to build braille printers for the past  
20 years or so.
Problem is, I suck as a salesman, and that's really what you need to  
be to get funding for these kinds of things.
And, of course the big companies aren't interested, because if the  
printer only costs 3-500 bucks, they won't make their huge margins  
they do now, so they're not the least bit interested.

Anyhow, here's two methods I've considered for making braille printers  
cheaply.
The first one is something that used to be very common, but went out  
with the 80s, because it got replaced with something else.
But, I'm talking abut the daisy wheel printer.
To make braille with such a printer would be an exercise in simplicity  
itself.
The way these printers worked was to have every character you wanted  
to print embossed on a spherical ball (perhaps the early versions  
actually had a wheel, which is where the name came from) but the way  
this works is when you want to print a character, the ball spins  
around until the character you want to print is foremost on the ball,  
then simply press the ball against the printer ribbon.  Poof, instant  
letter.
In the case of a braille printer, the characters would have to be  
larger, thus the upscaled version of the ball (or in this case,  
perhaps a wheel really would work better), and all you'd do is press  
the wheel/sphere into the page, instead of just onto it.  This would  
make the imprint required to produce braille, and for the purpose of  
making grade 1 braille, you wouldn't even need a translator program  
since the braille characters would directly correspond to their print  
counterparts.  You of course could use a translator, since all of the  
other characters would be on the wheel too, so it would still be  
capable of producing other grades of braille.

Now, the second method.
There's no way anyone can convince me that braille printers have to be  
expensive to cover the cost of all that fancy hardware they put into  
them, and the reason is something each and every one of us should be  
familiar with, even those who only got into computers fairly recently.
Everyone here has heard of dot matrix printers right?
Well, the way they work is to use pins (the early versions only had 9,  
the later models had 24).  How they work, is to simply fire the pins  
onto the ribbon in front of the page, thereby making the letters in  
question.
This too would be an extremely simple adaptation to enlarge the pins,  
reduce their number, and make them punch through the paper instead of  
simply striking the surface.
The whole thing could be done simply by replacing the print head of  
any existing dot matrix printer with one that fits the proper profile,  
and again, you'd have braille for nearly free.  At the end of the dot  
matrix run, printers of excellent quality were selling for less than  
100 bucks, and any one of these printers could get a head replacement,  
and poof, instant braille printer, and it wouldn't cost anywhere near  
4K.  It could probably be done for just around 2 or 3 hundred dollars  
per printhead.

Of course, there's nothing preventing a company from using similar  
techniques and producing a braille printer that costs under a thousand  
bucks.  I tell you, if they could manufacture them in large enough  
quantity (like epson, hp, ibm, and others did with the real dot matrix  
printers) the cost could get as low as 500 or so per printer, and that  
would be something they sure would sell a whole lot of around here at  
least.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Oct 13 17:56:01 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:56:01 +1100
Subject: Uniden Cordless phone system model XDECT-R055+
Message-ID: <C68477CC-83A2-4139-B131-F434C40CB649@internode.on.net>

Hi!

My new cordless phone system was delivered on Monday and you'll find my experiences with the system thus far noted in my blog at http://www.grtdane.wordpress.com



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct 13 18:56:17 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:56:17 +0100
Subject: Finally got some sense out of RNIB
Message-ID: <77D34F0A-B108-43EB-819B-B88FEA882FF9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

A few days ago I started quite a discussion, it seems, regarding the repair and availability of Perkins Brailler services in the UK.

I have been phoning around and finally, after about 4 calls their way and being put through to people who clearly don't know their jobs, I got to speak to a very pleasant lady who gave me the information I have been seeking.

The RNIB in the UK does indeed repair Perkins Braillers. What's more, they've fixed their prices for standard service and repair at just ?39.00 all inclusive. So, given that, it seems a worthwhile exercise to package Gordon's machine up and send it off to the Perkins hospital.

Hopefully then, within a very short time, he should have a working machine back once again. You know, he's had this machine for a staggering 37 years, and their isn't a single scratch mark, dent, bump or even chip in the paint covering it.

It's in absolutely mint condition, he's looked after it incredibly well.

Although he doesn't use it an awful lot these days, it's always handy to have these things around and I can perfectly understand why he wants it repaired.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct 13 19:00:01 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:00:01 +0100
Subject: Siemens SL565 Cordless Telephone with Bluetooth
Message-ID: <C6CF12B4-D86E-4D04-BE3D-DCAFCA4A18CD@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

I believe that Chris at least is using one of these devices; so I'd be interested in discussing with you, Chris, if you're still on list, the pro's and cons of them from your point of view.

I ordered a twin pack unit this morning via a firm on Amazon Market Place.

Hopefully it should be with us either tomorrow or Friday as it's coming via express delivery.

Hopefully that should make life easier for us as we are also switching phone providers on 2 November. We're moving away from the over-expensive Virgin Media, whose customer support is poor and that's putting it kindly.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 13 23:16:01 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:16:01 -0700
Subject: FCC to present 'bill shock' rules 
Message-ID: <3A7CDC24-41C6-4029-B314-A006B63D26CB@gmail.com>

hopefully the fcc  can get something gong. I have not yet incurred overage fees but this would be a good idea.
http://bit.ly/b0iFii

From startrekcafe at gmail.com  Thu Oct 14 00:01:53 2010
From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:01:53 +1100
Subject: utube video jaws vs nvda wizard wars
Message-ID: <31B582236E63472685BC90D441D53D51@marvinPC>

?hi.
came across this on a another list.
had a good chuckle.
enjoy.
marvin.

http://goo.gl/nAOM

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 13 23:59:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:59:14 -0700
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? | Operating
	Systems | MacUser
Message-ID: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>

In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt

From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 03:25:57 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:25:57 +0100
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>

I would like to think they might release an update to iLife and iWork, but as previous trends have shown, Apple usually update these products in January or August.  But here's hoping.

Exciting to  know that we might see a glimpse of Lion's new features.  I always thought Lion would have been used for 10.9

What other cats are left for them to use?Lynx or Cougar maybe?

Chris 
On 13 Oct 2010, at 23:59, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 03:33:32 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:33:32 +0100
Subject: utube video jaws vs nvda wizard wars
In-Reply-To: <31B582236E63472685BC90D441D53D51@marvinPC>
References: <31B582236E63472685BC90D441D53D51@marvinPC>
Message-ID: <5869245D-1762-4007-93FD-28B76FBEF8A6@blueyonder.co.uk>

LOL some people really do have too much time on their hands.  Very amusing though and creative.

Now we just need to see I am a Mac and I am a PC where Alex Vs that nasty default voice that comes with JAWS (I can't stand that voice, some people actually like it!).

Chris 
On 14 Oct 2010, at 00:01, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

> ?hi.
> came across this on a another list.
> had a good chuckle.
> enjoy.
> marvin.
> 
> http://goo.gl/nAOM
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 03:56:44 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:56:44 +0100
Subject: Siemens SL565 Cordless Telephone with Bluetooth
In-Reply-To: <C6CF12B4-D86E-4D04-BE3D-DCAFCA4A18CD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C6CF12B4-D86E-4D04-BE3D-DCAFCA4A18CD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BB1C2C92-C1E1-47E8-844A-B6BFD55DE2AF@blueyonder.co.uk>

Hi Lynn,

These are nice handsets and my only gripe is that they do not have text to speech built in.  This would make life much easier.  Also if you are totally blind there is no audio alert when you have a voice message.  Instead a small icon lights up on the missed call/voice mail button in red.  

The phones do have that plastic feel, but I have had no problems and the keypad is easy to feel and use and much better than the rubber keys you get on a Panasonic.  There are a good selection of ring tones and in my opinion are pretty loud, and the handsets also vibrate.  In call volume is quite decent too, but I would recommend turning this up as i found the default volume a bit low.

The phone can be used in conjunction with a PC to sync address book and change wall papers etc via bluetooth.  Of course being a Mac user I have never done this.  You can also sync address book content from one handset to another.

Although there are many of the phone features I can't use because I can no longer see the screen, there are many features I can still use by memorising the menus and key strokes (not ideal I know) but in my opinion these phones perform really well and are a pleasure to use.  They also look cool and have one of the best cradles / dock I have come across for a DECT phone.  I have had handsets in the past where they have been a nightmare to get back into the cradle or dock.  These handsets even still sit in place nicely when the phone is vibrating.

I also tried this model of phone with a Phonak iCom and it worked flawlessly.

I might take a look at Siemens website again and see if there are any software updates or drop them a line as an audio cue to alert a blind user that voice mail is waiting would be very useful.

Let me know how you get on.

Chris 
On 13 Oct 2010, at 19:00, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> I believe that Chris at least is using one of these devices; so I'd be interested in discussing with you, Chris, if you're still on list, the pro's and cons of them from your point of view.
> 
> I ordered a twin pack unit this morning via a firm on Amazon Market Place.
> 
> Hopefully it should be with us either tomorrow or Friday as it's coming via express delivery.
> 
> Hopefully that should make life easier for us as we are also switching phone providers on 2 November. We're moving away from the over-expensive Virgin Media, whose customer support is poor and that's putting it kindly.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 04:17:47 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:17:47 +0100
Subject: Siemens SL565 Cordless Telephone with Bluetooth
In-Reply-To: <BB1C2C92-C1E1-47E8-844A-B6BFD55DE2AF@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <C6CF12B4-D86E-4D04-BE3D-DCAFCA4A18CD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BB1C2C92-C1E1-47E8-844A-B6BFD55DE2AF@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8A86E288-B0F7-4CA7-BAA1-8A952F7CC16D@blueyonder.co.uk>

Actually they now have the sync software for the Mac on their website, so you might want to take a look at that Lynn.

I have dropped Siemens an email asking if there is a way to have audio alerts for answer machine messages.

Chris 
On 14 Oct 2010, at 03:56, Chris Moore wrote:

> Hi Lynn,
> 
> These are nice handsets and my only gripe is that they do not have text to speech built in.  This would make life much easier.  Also if you are totally blind there is no audio alert when you have a voice message.  Instead a small icon lights up on the missed call/voice mail button in red.  
> 
> The phones do have that plastic feel, but I have had no problems and the keypad is easy to feel and use and much better than the rubber keys you get on a Panasonic.  There are a good selection of ring tones and in my opinion are pretty loud, and the handsets also vibrate.  In call volume is quite decent too, but I would recommend turning this up as i found the default volume a bit low.
> 
> The phone can be used in conjunction with a PC to sync address book and change wall papers etc via bluetooth.  Of course being a Mac user I have never done this.  You can also sync address book content from one handset to another.
> 
> Although there are many of the phone features I can't use because I can no longer see the screen, there are many features I can still use by memorising the menus and key strokes (not ideal I know) but in my opinion these phones perform really well and are a pleasure to use.  They also look cool and have one of the best cradles / dock I have come across for a DECT phone.  I have had handsets in the past where they have been a nightmare to get back into the cradle or dock.  These handsets even still sit in place nicely when the phone is vibrating.
> 
> I also tried this model of phone with a Phonak iCom and it worked flawlessly.
> 
> I might take a look at Siemens website again and see if there are any software updates or drop them a line as an audio cue to alert a blind user that voice mail is waiting would be very useful.
> 
> Let me know how you get on.
> 
> Chris 
> On 13 Oct 2010, at 19:00, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello everybody
>> 
>> I believe that Chris at least is using one of these devices; so I'd be interested in discussing with you, Chris, if you're still on list, the pro's and cons of them from your point of view.
>> 
>> I ordered a twin pack unit this morning via a firm on Amazon Market Place.
>> 
>> Hopefully it should be with us either tomorrow or Friday as it's coming via express delivery.
>> 
>> Hopefully that should make life easier for us as we are also switching phone providers on 2 November. We're moving away from the over-expensive Virgin Media, whose customer support is poor and that's putting it kindly.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 14 06:36:44 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:36:44 -0700
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
	<0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>

Let's see links, cougar, puma or how ever you spell that, Tom  cat? lol!
On Oct 13, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Chris Moore wrote:

> I would like to think they might release an update to iLife and iWork, but as previous trends have shown, Apple usually update these products in January or August.  But here's hoping.
> 
> Exciting to  know that we might see a glimpse of Lion's new features.  I always thought Lion would have been used for 10.9
> 
> What other cats are left for them to use?Lynx or Cougar maybe?
> 
> Chris 
> On 13 Oct 2010, at 23:59, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 07:59:18 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:59:18 +0100
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
	<0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>

Nah, Puma has already been used, it was way back at the beginning of OSX (it was awful and the interface was more Aqua and you got that beach ball all the time).  We could always go down the Alley Cat route (as you say Tom Cat!) Am guessing Lion is going to be a major upgrade though, Snow Leopard was only a small patch upgrade but a big step in regards of accessibility.  Let's hope they have assigned enough staff to work on the project as iOS seems to be getting all the attention lately.

Chris 
On 14 Oct 2010, at 06:36, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Let's see links, cougar, puma or how ever you spell that, Tom  cat? lol!
> On Oct 13, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
> 
>> I would like to think they might release an update to iLife and iWork, but as previous trends have shown, Apple usually update these products in January or August.  But here's hoping.
>> 
>> Exciting to  know that we might see a glimpse of Lion's new features.  I always thought Lion would have been used for 10.9
>> 
>> What other cats are left for them to use?Lynx or Cougar maybe?
>> 
>> Chris 
>> On 13 Oct 2010, at 23:59, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 13:24:05 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:24:05 +0100
Subject: Siemens SL565 Cordless Telephone with Bluetooth
In-Reply-To: <BB1C2C92-C1E1-47E8-844A-B6BFD55DE2AF@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <C6CF12B4-D86E-4D04-BE3D-DCAFCA4A18CD@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BB1C2C92-C1E1-47E8-844A-B6BFD55DE2AF@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00EA8CD9-AE1E-4A12-AFFC-7B6E5C3BD787@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Chris

I'd appreciate a chat with you off list about this. I'm expecting ours tomorrow.

Gordon

On 14 Oct 2010, at 03:56, Chris Moore wrote:

> Hi Lynn,
> 
> These are nice handsets and my only gripe is that they do not have text to speech built in.  This would make life much easier.  Also if you are totally blind there is no audio alert when you have a voice message.  Instead a small icon lights up on the missed call/voice mail button in red.  
> 
> The phones do have that plastic feel, but I have had no problems and the keypad is easy to feel and use and much better than the rubber keys you get on a Panasonic.  There are a good selection of ring tones and in my opinion are pretty loud, and the handsets also vibrate.  In call volume is quite decent too, but I would recommend turning this up as i found the default volume a bit low.
> 
> The phone can be used in conjunction with a PC to sync address book and change wall papers etc via bluetooth.  Of course being a Mac user I have never done this.  You can also sync address book content from one handset to another.
> 
> Although there are many of the phone features I can't use because I can no longer see the screen, there are many features I can still use by memorising the menus and key strokes (not ideal I know) but in my opinion these phones perform really well and are a pleasure to use.  They also look cool and have one of the best cradles / dock I have come across for a DECT phone.  I have had handsets in the past where they have been a nightmare to get back into the cradle or dock.  These handsets even still sit in place nicely when the phone is vibrating.
> 
> I also tried this model of phone with a Phonak iCom and it worked flawlessly.
> 
> I might take a look at Siemens website again and see if there are any software updates or drop them a line as an audio cue to alert a blind user that voice mail is waiting would be very useful.
> 
> Let me know how you get on.
> 
> Chris 
> On 13 Oct 2010, at 19:00, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello everybody
>> 
>> I believe that Chris at least is using one of these devices; so I'd be interested in discussing with you, Chris, if you're still on list, the pro's and cons of them from your point of view.
>> 
>> I ordered a twin pack unit this morning via a firm on Amazon Market Place.
>> 
>> Hopefully it should be with us either tomorrow or Friday as it's coming via express delivery.
>> 
>> Hopefully that should make life easier for us as we are also switching phone providers on 2 November. We're moving away from the over-expensive Virgin Media, whose customer support is poor and that's putting it kindly.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 13:25:55 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:25:55 +0100
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
	<0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>
	<B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7206042B-EE46-4F6F-A391-058E93C2F2FA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

They can't use Tomcat as it's already been used as an HTML browser product.

On 14 Oct 2010, at 07:59, Chris Moore wrote:

> Nah, Puma has already been used, it was way back at the beginning of OSX (it was awful and the interface was more Aqua and you got that beach ball all the time).  We could always go down the Alley Cat route (as you say Tom Cat!) Am guessing Lion is going to be a major upgrade though, Snow Leopard was only a small patch upgrade but a big step in regards of accessibility.  Let's hope they have assigned enough staff to work on the project as iOS seems to be getting all the attention lately.
> 
> Chris 
> On 14 Oct 2010, at 06:36, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Let's see links, cougar, puma or how ever you spell that, Tom  cat? lol!
>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>> 
>>> I would like to think they might release an update to iLife and iWork, but as previous trends have shown, Apple usually update these products in January or August.  But here's hoping.
>>> 
>>> Exciting to  know that we might see a glimpse of Lion's new features.  I always thought Lion would have been used for 10.9
>>> 
>>> What other cats are left for them to use?Lynx or Cougar maybe?
>>> 
>>> Chris 
>>> On 13 Oct 2010, at 23:59, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Oct 14 15:12:38 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:12:38 -0400
Subject: utube video jaws vs nvda wizard wars
In-Reply-To: <5869245D-1762-4007-93FD-28B76FBEF8A6@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <31B582236E63472685BC90D441D53D51@marvinPC>
	<5869245D-1762-4007-93FD-28B76FBEF8A6@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101014101238.ot9r02dzwwsssgw0@webmail.iu.edu>

Yeah, I'm one of those crazies who likes the default JAWS voice. Go figure. :)

I'm going to have the Harry Potter theme song stuck in my head now. I 
am glad, though, because it's better than "Heaven must be missing an 
angel," which is what I had to suffer through on the bus on the way to 
work.

Mary

Quoting Chris Moore <moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk>:

> LOL some people really do have too much time on their hands.  Very
> amusing though and creative.
>
> Now we just need to see I am a Mac and I am a PC where Alex Vs that
> nasty default voice that comes with JAWS (I can't stand that voice,
> some people actually like it!).
>
> Chris



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 14 18:55:23 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:55:23 -0700
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
	<0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>
	<B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4736603B-6BCC-4A0B-9595-FDD0F4FEA3F0@gmail.com>

I'm new to the mac. Will we be notified some how if we will be charged for this upgrade or no? I'm just planning ahead for the future. I can't wait though and hope that it will fix some bugs. lol! and maybe we might have an ILife 2011. I guess we'll see in 6 days eh?
On Oct 13, 2010, at 11:59 PM, Chris Moore wrote:

> Nah, Puma has already been used, it was way back at the beginning of OSX (it was awful and the interface was more Aqua and you got that beach ball all the time).  We could always go down the Alley Cat route (as you say Tom Cat!) Am guessing Lion is going to be a major upgrade though, Snow Leopard was only a small patch upgrade but a big step in regards of accessibility.  Let's hope they have assigned enough staff to work on the project as iOS seems to be getting all the attention lately.
> 
> Chris 
> On 14 Oct 2010, at 06:36, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Let's see links, cougar, puma or how ever you spell that, Tom  cat? lol!
>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>> 
>>> I would like to think they might release an update to iLife and iWork, but as previous trends have shown, Apple usually update these products in January or August.  But here's hoping.
>>> 
>>> Exciting to  know that we might see a glimpse of Lion's new features.  I always thought Lion would have been used for 10.9
>>> 
>>> What other cats are left for them to use?Lynx or Cougar maybe?
>>> 
>>> Chris 
>>> On 13 Oct 2010, at 23:59, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In interesting. I guess we'll have to wait until next wednesday but I hope they fix some bugs in os10.7. and I hope the upgrade wont; break my pocket book. Read more: http://www.macworld.com/article/154850/2010/10/backtothemac_preview.html?lsrc=twt
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Oct 14 20:24:03 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:24:03 +0100
Subject: What is Apple planning for its 'Back to the Mac' event? |
	Operating Systems | MacUser
In-Reply-To: <4736603B-6BCC-4A0B-9595-FDD0F4FEA3F0@gmail.com>
References: <68B48B13-A9F0-46B4-9FD3-18715B9EEE37@gmail.com>
	<0A9F2A04-50D5-4CC0-8B79-5C5BC7A5EA6A@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<2F0618CE-1E9A-4EBD-9F6A-64C612ED80A9@gmail.com>
	<B361018D-8CBF-4685-931A-23F20F12EA56@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<4736603B-6BCC-4A0B-9595-FDD0F4FEA3F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ED01CCB7-0859-479B-B9C8-562A692E8E06@tft-bbs.co.uk>

People.

Could we move this to the other list, Mac Access, if you're on there?

Lynne

On 14 Oct 2010, at 18:55, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I'm new to the mac. Will we be notified some how if we will be charged for this upgrade or no? I'm just planning ahead for the future. I can't wait though and hope that it will fix some bugs. lol! and maybe we might have an ILife 2011. I guess we'll see in 6 days eh?


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Oct 15 18:17:01 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:17:01 +0100
Subject: ADSL Modems
Message-ID: <D5CBBFDA-F8AD-41B3-805E-C6742FD9C87B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello

Just a quick note from work. Does anybody know anything about ADSL modems? We are shortly changing one of our ISPS, if not both. And we need to look at a modem.

They send us a router but we want to keep using our Apple Time Capsule which does not have a modem inbuilt.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 15 18:27:20 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:27:20 -0700
Subject: Verizon to offer 3GB, 5GB iPad data plans 
Message-ID: <1DA03D91-7C83-4C82-AAF6-C9F30E248C04@gmail.com>

In preparation for there release of the ipad it looks like VZ are offering higher data plans then at&t ever will for iphone. Read more: http://tinyurl.com/27p4wbo

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 15 18:43:40 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:43:40 -0700
Subject: White iPhone 4 exists, but you still can't have one 
Message-ID: <9ED66A27-1B4E-4A26-A4BB-F746CB6ACF5E@gmail.com>

Ok? the reasoning behind this does not make sense but you can decide. Read more: http://bit.ly/doeN2n

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Oct 15 20:32:59 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:32:59 -0500
Subject: ADSL Modems
In-Reply-To: <D5CBBFDA-F8AD-41B3-805E-C6742FD9C87B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D5CBBFDA-F8AD-41B3-805E-C6742FD9C87B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EC6290E5-D07C-4C03-B0FC-0A6DBA084360@softcon.com>

I haven't used a dsl modem for years, but in the past, I've used  
several brands.
Usually though, the only thing you need the dsl modem for is  
connecting to the dsl connection itself, you can still use any devices  
you already have on your internal networks, and this should include  
any time capsules, wireless routers, bridging hubs, and the like.   
Effectively, the dsl modem simply acts as your access point, nothing  
else.  You should have no issues keeping all of your current devices  
plugged in to what they're already plugged into, simply move the  
network plug from the current network device to the dsl modem, and you  
shouldn't have any troubles assuming they're all configured to pick up  
their configurations from a single access point, the only thing you'd  
need to do is alter the ip range your network hands out (unless you're  
using static ips, in which each machine/device needs reconfigured) but  
otherwise, there should be no issue at all.



On Oct 15, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello
>
> Just a quick note from work. Does anybody know anything about ADSL  
> modems? We are shortly changing one of our ISPS, if not both. And we  
> need to look at a modem.
>
> They send us a router but we want to keep using our Apple Time  
> Capsule which does not have a modem inbuilt.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 15 21:12:48 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:12:48 -0700
Subject: JetBlue Airways sued re their website & check-in kiosk
	inaccessibility 
Message-ID: <57363C74-BC9F-49DF-9996-D088C1580E3A@gmail.com>

Not sure where this one goes go but let's hope more airline websites and travel sites become more accessible.
http://goo.gl/Svbh HT @ppatel #etail #ecommerce #law #cio

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Oct 15 21:17:09 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:17:09 +0100
Subject: ADSL Modems
In-Reply-To: <EC6290E5-D07C-4C03-B0FC-0A6DBA084360@softcon.com>
References: <D5CBBFDA-F8AD-41B3-805E-C6742FD9C87B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<EC6290E5-D07C-4C03-B0FC-0A6DBA084360@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D6B80754-9A60-40DA-BDBE-737595E3BBC7@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

Yes, I know that!  :) That's exactly my point.  I just want to put the modem on the back of the TC, then the TC can handle all the rest of the network traffic.  Just as we do it at the moment with our cable modem which is going the journey shortly.

Gordon

On 15 Oct 2010, at 20:32, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I haven't used a dsl modem for years, but in the past, I've used several brands.
> Usually though, the only thing you need the dsl modem for is connecting to the dsl connection itself, you can still use any devices you already have on your internal networks, and this should include any time capsules, wireless routers, bridging hubs, and the like.  Effectively, the dsl modem simply acts as your access point, nothing else.  You should have no issues keeping all of your current devices plugged in to what they're already plugged into, simply move the network plug from the current network device to the dsl modem, and you shouldn't have any troubles assuming they're all configured to pick up their configurations from a single access point, the only thing you'd need to do is alter the ip range your network hands out (unless you're using static ips, in which each machine/device needs reconfigured) but otherwise, there should be no issue at all.
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Oct 15 21:39:00 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:39:00 -0500
Subject: ADSL Modems 
Message-ID: <201010152039.o9FKd0XS014118@x.it.okstate.edu>

	The IP addresses your new provider will have to give you
are in the public internet and a number of DSL systems use
something called PPPOE which stands for Point to Point Protocol
Over Ethernet. You will likely need to install a small router
such as are made by companies like Netgear or Linksys. It may
come bundled with a switch so the box will look like a switch
with 8 ports or so on it and a special port that you plug in to from
the ADSL modem. So, the telephone line plugs in to the modem and
an Ethernet whip runs from the modem to your switch/router, and
then all your other devices plug in to ports on the switch.

	The router part of the switch may even have a little
DHCP server built in to it which will automatically give IP
addresses to your home devices if it can. It will also contain
software to log you in to your service provider so that once
everything is set up, it looks pretty transparent.

	You will then use one of your computers to log in to
your new router and set up certain things that can not be
automatically determined. You may be asked to define an exposed
computer or similar technology. This means, "what one of your
home systems would you like to log in to from the outside, if
any.

	You make that determination and then fill in the box

	You will also need to fill in the password that you use
to log in to your provider's network. Once you have done that,
the router will always send that password and negociate your
login without you even seeing it. You will turn it on and your
network connection will just start to work a few seconds later.

	If you plan to have any VOIP telephones, you may have to
set a few rules in the router's firewall.

	We have ADSL at our house and it works very well most of
the time.

	Your new router/switch will allow anything on the home
side of the router to talk to anything else on the home side.

	You will be surprised how easy it all turns out to be.

	Sometimes, our router dies for no good reason and it is
necessary to power-cycle it but it usually comes back to life
after that.

	Also, any of the devices you plug in to the router can
go out on the Internet so all of them are basically connected to
the Internet at once.

	At our house, My wife's Mac has WiFi turned on so she
can use WiFi from her Iphone and the Mac relays it to the ADSL
modem, saving the 3G bit count for those times when we are away
from the house.

Martin McCormick

Travis Siegel writes:
> I haven't used a dsl modem for years, but in the past, I've used several
> brands. Usually though, the only thing you need the dsl modem for is
> connecting to the dsl connection itself, you can still use any devices you
> already have on your internal networks, and this should include any time
> capsules, wireless routers, bridging hubs, and the like. Effectively, the
> dsl modem simply acts as your access point, nothing else.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Oct 15 22:13:37 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:13:37 +0100
Subject: ADSL Modems 
In-Reply-To: <201010152039.o9FKd0XS014118@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010152039.o9FKd0XS014118@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C6C1B53F-EC93-44B5-B1E0-3B568AA2D696@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

I don't think we are being very clear here.

I know how to configure this.  I just wondered about anybody having experience with the modems themselves, as in which type might be best.

Sorry if I or if Lynne was less than clear.

Gordon

On 15 Oct 2010, at 21:39, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	The IP addresses your new provider will have to give you
> are in the public internet and a number of DSL systems use
> something called PPPOE which stands for Point to Point Protocol
> Over Ethernet. You will likely need to install a small router
> such as are made by companies like Netgear or Linksys. It may
> come bundled with a switch so the box will look like a switch
> with 8 ports or so on it and a special port that you plug in to from
> the ADSL modem. So, the telephone line plugs in to the modem and
> an Ethernet whip runs from the modem to your switch/router, and
> then all your other devices plug in to ports on the switch.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sat Oct 16 02:19:07 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 20:19:07 -0500
Subject: ADSL Modems 
In-Reply-To: <C6C1B53F-EC93-44B5-B1E0-3B568AA2D696@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201010152039.o9FKd0XS014118@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<C6C1B53F-EC93-44B5-B1E0-3B568AA2D696@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FFFABCA4-F043-478E-B84B-50E699AF9597@softcon.com>


On Oct 15, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>
> I know how to configure this.  I just wondered about anybody having  
> experience with the modems themselves, as in which type might be best.

Of the brands I've used in the past, I really liked the flowpoint 2200.
I would imagine there's newer versions of that particular modem these  
days, but as far as it goes, the one I had was an sdsl not an adsl, so  
it's likely that one wouldn't work for you anyhow, but I did find  
flowpoint as a whole to be very reliable.
The other brand I had was a covad special (don't remember the  
manufacturer though) and although it worked, I didn't particularly  
care for it all that much.

It helped that flowpoint had the manual for the modem on the cd that  
came with it, and the covad branded one didn't, but overall, the  
flowpoint was just a more solid piece of hardware, both in  
construction and functionality.
Come to think of it, I still have it around here somewhere.
And, come to think of it again, (hmm, really got to stop saying that)  
when we first moved here, we had dsl with verizon, and their dsl modem  
was kinda small, so you'd think it was a decent piece of equipment,  
but it was made cheap, had only two configuration options (ppoe or  
dirrect connect) and there wasn't a whole lot you could do to  
configure it differently from the way it came preinstalled.
Plus, it limited you to just one connection, something the flowpoint  
didn't do, it had a 4-port hub built directly into the router.
So, in summary, verizon (no) covad private label (no) flowpoint  
(definitely yes)
That's about all I can offer, other than to say a few friends I have  
also had verizon dsl modems, and had nothing but trouble with them.  I  
have no idea what brand verizon modems are, since they're probably the  
same private label oem type thing covad does.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 16 05:02:31 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:02:31 -0700
Subject: Motorola seeks to invalidate Apple phone patents  
Message-ID: <72EF73A3-B939-40B5-A38A-24EB461D78D7@gmail.com>

Well here we go again. I cant' remember who the first person or company was that tried to do this. Read more: http://bit.ly/cBafWW

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Oct 16 07:53:00 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:53:00 +0100
Subject: ADSL Modems 
In-Reply-To: <FFFABCA4-F043-478E-B84B-50E699AF9597@softcon.com>
References: <201010152039.o9FKd0XS014118@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<C6C1B53F-EC93-44B5-B1E0-3B568AA2D696@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<FFFABCA4-F043-478E-B84B-50E699AF9597@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <160AC305-C136-4A7A-86F5-BAC45118A297@tft-bbs.co.uk>

This is an interesting, if somewhat rambling post. :)  Thank you Travis, I will see if there is a modern-day version.  I'd imagine your version went out with the proverbial ark, in computing terms I mean. Don't get out that hair loss treatment or the grey remover just yet, Travis!;-)

Gordon

On 16 Oct 2010, at 02:19, Travis Siegel wrote:

> 
> On Oct 15, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>> 
>> I know how to configure this.  I just wondered about anybody having experience with the modems themselves, as in which type might be best.
> 
> Of the brands I've used in the past, I really liked the flowpoint 2200.
> I would imagine there's newer versions of that particular modem these days, but as far as it goes, the one I had was an sdsl not an adsl, so it's likely that one wouldn't work for you anyhow, but I did find flowpoint as a whole to be very reliable.
> The other brand I had was a covad special (don't remember the manufacturer though) and although it worked, I didn't particularly care for it all that much.
> 
> It helped that flowpoint had the manual for the modem on the cd that came with it, and the covad branded one didn't, but overall, the flowpoint was just a more solid piece of hardware, both in construction and functionality.
> Come to think of it, I still have it around here somewhere.
> And, come to think of it again, (hmm, really got to stop saying that) when we first moved here, we had dsl with verizon, and their dsl modem was kinda small, so you'd think it was a decent piece of equipment, but it was made cheap, had only two configuration options (ppoe or dirrect connect) and there wasn't a whole lot you could do to configure it differently from the way it came preinstalled.
> Plus, it limited you to just one connection, something the flowpoint didn't do, it had a 4-port hub built directly into the router.
> So, in summary, verizon (no) covad private label (no) flowpoint (definitely yes)
> That's about all I can offer, other than to say a few friends I have also had verizon dsl modems, and had nothing but trouble with them.  I have no idea what brand verizon modems are, since they're probably the same private label oem type thing covad does.


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sat Oct 16 08:09:39 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:09:39 +0100
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
Message-ID: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>

Hi all

First, before I start, I want it made clear that this is in no way a complaint, a moan, or an attempt to have anybody stop posting anything.  It's just a thought based on a private comment made to me by a member yesterday.

I should also add that it really doesn't matter to me either which way.  To do this or not to do it, it's all much of a muchness to me.

Ok, here goes.  Somebody has come forward with the suggesting of splitting Techno-Chat into two.  I.e., making a "Techno-Articles,", just as an example, list, and having Techno-Chat reserved purely for things like Q&a's, problem solving, discussions of our own making, that sort of thing.  Whereas the other side of this would be a links list, such as those which Sarah and others post.

Sarah, please don't get me wrong; I find your contributions most welcome, they're thought-provoking at times and often an interesting read.  So please don't stop. :)

As I say, this was only a suggestion which I thought I'd pass on.  If the list think it's worth doing, IO'll gladly do it.  If not, we'll keep the status quo as is.  After all, that famous old rock band hasn't given up, rolled over and laid down after over 40 years of strumming their old guitars ... so why should we? ;-)

No, this is just an idea.  Feel free to voice your views on or off list, at the support address if you please.

Gordon




From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 17 20:56:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:56:04 -0700
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
Message-ID: <A56F1D93-BA8B-4FF8-ADA1-EFC368D48B30@gmail.com>

lol. dunno which rock band you mean, but for me I like the 1 list as I'm subscribed to over 16 or more lists that having a branch would not make any sense. It is a good suggestion and something to consider.

Take care.
On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:09 AM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> First, before I start, I want it made clear that this is in no way a complaint, a moan, or an attempt to have anybody stop posting anything.  It's just a thought based on a private comment made to me by a member yesterday.
> 
> I should also add that it really doesn't matter to me either which way.  To do this or not to do it, it's all much of a muchness to me.
> 
> Ok, here goes.  Somebody has come forward with the suggesting of splitting Techno-Chat into two.  I.e., making a "Techno-Articles,", just as an example, list, and having Techno-Chat reserved purely for things like Q&a's, problem solving, discussions of our own making, that sort of thing.  Whereas the other side of this would be a links list, such as those which Sarah and others post.
> 
> Sarah, please don't get me wrong; I find your contributions most welcome, they're thought-provoking at times and often an interesting read.  So please don't stop. :)
> 
> As I say, this was only a suggestion which I thought I'd pass on.  If the list think it's worth doing, IO'll gladly do it.  If not, we'll keep the status quo as is.  After all, that famous old rock band hasn't given up, rolled over and laid down after over 40 years of strumming their old guitars ... so why should we? ;-)
> 
> No, this is just an idea.  Feel free to voice your views on or off list, at the support address if you please.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 17 21:04:24 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:04:24 +0100
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <A56F1D93-BA8B-4FF8-ADA1-EFC368D48B30@gmail.com>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
	<A56F1D93-BA8B-4FF8-ADA1-EFC368D48B30@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27DE2F47-50C4-4B0E-8EB3-41177E46609A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 17 Oct 2010, at 20:56, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? lol. dunno which rock band you mean, but for me I like the 1 list as I'm subscribed to over 16 or more lists that having a branch would not make any sense. It is a good suggestion and something to consider.

We have to go beyond the "what's good for me", and think in terms of all our members. But your view is just as important as anybody else's; and we have duly noted it. Thank you.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 17 21:14:47 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:14:47 -0700
Subject: Symantec responds to users complaining about an online tech support
	scam
Message-ID: <825BB99A-B3A9-4279-ADCC-9F1F6BEFBD21@gmail.com>

Oh my gosh! I listened to this and I earge you to do thre same. They give some good advise at the end. Just hang up the phone if this happens. Read more:   http://slidesha.re/9M73gj

From support at tft-bbs.com  Mon Oct 18 07:37:32 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:37:32 +0100
Subject: Anybody want to use this service, feel free
Message-ID: <63A38E14-9BAC-4D33-8C14-9034F828A0BB@tft-bbs.com>

Hi all

I just thought I'd drop a quick note because we have several new members who won't be aware that we are offering these services.  So please excuse me if you're an old hand, so to speak, and already know about this.

Firstly, if anybody is looking for a NTP time server which is either geographically closer or just more convenient for them, we are offering full NTP synchronisation via our own server.

Please feel free to point your computer's time synchronisation to:
ntp:.tft-bbs.co.uk
Using the standard NTP port of 123, just in case you're behind a firewall and need to know that.

It doesn't matter which time zone you're in, as the zone conversions are done by your own computer after it gains the NTP data from the server. We use a GPS synchronised server which has access to a minimum of 12 GPS satellites at any one time. We are accurate to within a tolerance of 200 micro-seconds which is close enough for any Ethernet device.

Secondly, if anybody is looking for a free unlimited and secure E-Mail address, we are offering them under the Mac-Access.Nert domain to anybody who wants them.  Please contact us on support at mac-access.net for further information.

Our servers use SSL encryption up to industry-standard and with fully authorised SSL certificates recognised by 99.9% of the world's browsers and other such clients.

Gordon


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Oct 18 10:57:57 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 05:57:57 -0400
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
Message-ID: <20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello

I honestly like the way Sarah is doing this. The thing is, usually it's 
not just a link that is sent. Usually Sarah comments on the article and 
sends the link. Then if people are interested, they can read it.

Since Sarah has joined the list, there has been a lot more discussion 
about a variety of things due to her posts.

I think if people want to save the links, that's why they have their 
internet browsing history or they can save it some other way. I would 
never subscribe to a list where links and only links are posted.

Mary
Quoting Gordon & Lynne Smith <support at tft-bbs.com>:

> Hi all
>
> First, before I start, I want it made clear that this is in no way a
> complaint, a moan, or an attempt to have anybody stop posting
> anything.  It's just a thought based on a private comment made to me
> by a member yesterday.
>
> I should also add that it really doesn't matter to me either which
> way.  To do this or not to do it, it's all much of a muchness to me.
>
> Ok, here goes.  Somebody has come forward with the suggesting of
> splitting Techno-Chat into two.  I.e., making a "Techno-Articles,",
> just as an example, list, and having Techno-Chat reserved purely for
> things like Q&a's, problem solving, discussions of our own making,
> that sort of thing.  Whereas the other side of this would be a links
> list, such as those which Sarah and others post.
>
> Sarah, please don't get me wrong; I find your contributions most
> welcome, they're thought-provoking at times and often an interesting
> read.  So please don't stop. :)
>
> As I say, this was only a suggestion which I thought I'd pass on.  If
> the list think it's worth doing, IO'll gladly do it.  If not, we'll
> keep the status quo as is.  After all, that famous old rock band
> hasn't given up, rolled over and laid down after over 40 years of
> strumming their old guitars ... so why should we? ;-)
>
> No, this is just an idea.  Feel free to voice your views on or off
> list, at the support address if you please.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 18 11:17:46 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:17:46 +0100
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
	<20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <001B2D5F-1281-4FBC-BC48-8CEFBCC8C160@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

This is exactly why we posted that message.  We've had private feedback since then and, based on that, we've decided to leave things as they are.

But for whatever it's worth, I personally agree with you.  Sarah is doing a good job and it's good for the group.  So if others want to do likewise, that is fine.

So, the possibility of starting another branch of this list is now no longer up for consideration.  Techno-Chat will remain in its current form, and we hope that Sarah and others will continue to post interesting things.

Gordon

On 18 Oct 2010, at 10:57, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello
> 
> I honestly like the way Sarah is doing this. The thing is, usually it's not just a link that is sent. Usually Sarah comments on the article and sends the link. Then if people are interested, they can read it.
> 
> Since Sarah has joined the list, there has been a lot more discussion about a variety of things due to her posts.
> 
> I think if people want to save the links, that's why they have their internet browsing history or they can save it some other way. I would never subscribe to a list where links and only links are posted.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Oct 18 13:47:49 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:47:49 -0500
Subject: A Few Disconnected Facts
Message-ID: <201010181247.o9IClnaL033447@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Our minor Earth trimmer last Wednesday made me more
aware of such things so the following facts might have
gone unnoticed:

	According to "The Science Show" on Radio Australia, The
British Geological Survey turned 175 years old last week.
Britain doesn't have many huge Earth Quakes but lots of little
ones like many other places. There was a fairly big one in 1580
that is even mentioned in one of Shakespear's plays.

	There is both a US Geological Survey and each state has
its own geological survey. The trimmer we had last week was said
to be a 5.1 by one of the surveys and a 4.1 by the other so the
official level was an average of the two. The Oklahoma
Geological Survey and the USGS both use slightly different
methods of measurement so neither one is right or wrong.

	Finally, the television news program "60 Minutes" showed
a remarkable film which was found to be taken from the front of
a San Francisco streetcar possibly days before the large Earth
Quake in 1906.

	The film was one of those dusty archives found that
nobody really knew when it was taken but it was thought to be
the Fall of 1905.

	Some very sharp-eyed researchers, though, noted that the
newspapers of the day complained that it was terribly dry during
the Fall of 1905 but the film shows rain puddles on the
streetcar tracks.

	There were lots of those new-fangled automobiles shown
in the picture along with horses and people, but the cars by
then had license plates on them and somebody even dug up old
registrations. One showed that a certain car had been registered
in January of 1906.

	The researchers then wen to 1906 newspapers and found
references to the film being made and also observations on how
much rain had been falling recently. It was thought that anyone
who had a motor car was encouraged to drive in to view of the
camera to be in the film.

	It turns out that the finished film was shipped to New
York from San Francisco by train on the night before the quake
which occurred on April 18, 1906.

	When they showed the film on "60 Minutes," descendants of
the brothers who had originally shot the film talked about it
and a couple of folks commented on the eerie fact that many of
the people shown in the frames of film probably had just days
left to live. Who did or did not survive is not known. The
footage is from Market Street and none of the buildings shown
survived.

	In 1906, motor cars, motion pictures and electric power
were equivalent to gene splicing, the internet and Ipads of
today.

	The people mugging for the camera and showing off their
new cars are timeless. The 8-horse drays and people driving on
which ever side of the road they felt like are from another
world.

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Mon Oct 18 17:50:44 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:50:44 -0500
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
	<20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <B0A49D0E-63B9-4889-A568-30C547F503F6@softcon.com>

I agree with Mary here.  A list for just links seems to be a bit  
silly.  If I want links, I would hit the search engines, or any number  
of technology sites around the web, (which I do now and then) but  
having the links on list (to me at least) are just fine.  There's a  
delete button, and I think folks are a little too hesitant to use said  
key when it comes to content they don't want to see.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 18 19:17:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:17:58 -0700
Subject: Chat versus Articlles
In-Reply-To: <20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <9BBB7A9A-520E-4A4D-9997-4AACEB678352@tft-bbs.com>
	<20101018055757.f0lixs7ascwsksw0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <8B879A78-5331-4C7D-BEED-9B162BEF8540@gmail.com>

lol. I get that idea from another list. but there summaries are more like 5 pages long. Mine try and be short as each person's attention span including mine is about 10 minutes. that's from a psych prof I had once.

Take care all and glad you like the stuff.
On Oct 18, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello
> 
> I honestly like the way Sarah is doing this. The thing is, usually it's not just a link that is sent. Usually Sarah comments on the article and sends the link. Then if people are interested, they can read it.
> 
> Since Sarah has joined the list, there has been a lot more discussion about a variety of things due to her posts.
> 
> I think if people want to save the links, that's why they have their internet browsing history or they can save it some other way. I would never subscribe to a list where links and only links are posted.
> 
> Mary
> Quoting Gordon & Lynne Smith <support at tft-bbs.com>:
> 
>> Hi all
>> 
>> First, before I start, I want it made clear that this is in no way a
>> complaint, a moan, or an attempt to have anybody stop posting
>> anything.  It's just a thought based on a private comment made to me
>> by a member yesterday.
>> 
>> I should also add that it really doesn't matter to me either which
>> way.  To do this or not to do it, it's all much of a muchness to me.
>> 
>> Ok, here goes.  Somebody has come forward with the suggesting of
>> splitting Techno-Chat into two.  I.e., making a "Techno-Articles,",
>> just as an example, list, and having Techno-Chat reserved purely for
>> things like Q&a's, problem solving, discussions of our own making,
>> that sort of thing.  Whereas the other side of this would be a links
>> list, such as those which Sarah and others post.
>> 
>> Sarah, please don't get me wrong; I find your contributions most
>> welcome, they're thought-provoking at times and often an interesting
>> read.  So please don't stop. :)
>> 
>> As I say, this was only a suggestion which I thought I'd pass on.  If
>> the list think it's worth doing, IO'll gladly do it.  If not, we'll
>> keep the status quo as is.  After all, that famous old rock band
>> hasn't given up, rolled over and laid down after over 40 years of
>> strumming their old guitars ... so why should we? ;-)
>> 
>> No, this is just an idea.  Feel free to voice your views on or off
>> list, at the support address if you please.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
>> virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
>> dedicated web pages located at
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
>> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 18 20:42:44 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:42:44 +0100
Subject: The worst user guide I've ever had the misfortune to encounter
Message-ID: <03763135-9B1E-4EE7-B335-4877E8C6B050@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Gordon and I have just received our new Siemens SL565 cordless phone quad pack.

The phones look great; very comprehensive in functionality judging by what I can determine from the menu systems.

The user guide, however, is another matter. Never, in all my life, have I ever encountered a user's guide which is as poorly written, badly laid out and dreadfully explained as this one is.

Gordon tried to read the PDF document, but gave up. I tried to read the hard copy, and I didn't even get as far as Gordon did before I gave up in disgust.

They talk about pressing this key, pressing that key and the other key, then they jump to another function and explain half of that. Then they move back to the original and explain a big more of it. That's how it goes on. and you have to jump from page to page in order to try and make sense of it.

I think this guide was written by a German to be honest, with a poor understanding of English.

The dreadful user guide may well inhibit our use of the phone. If we cannot figure out how it all works, and Gordon, of course, can't do that on this occasion because he cannot see the display.

I'm pretty hopeless at this sort of thing; I rely on Gordon. But he just got frustrated by the whole experience of the user's guide and gave up.

So where we go from here, I just don't know. We wanted to activate Bluetooth on the phone but I simply can't figure out how you do it.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 18 21:53:01 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:53:01 -0700
Subject: Facebook caught red-handed? 
Message-ID: <689DBE4B-0BC6-4A61-8BD8-39AE80D45BC1@gmail.com>

What happens when Facebook violates its own privacy act? Read more: http://bit.ly/cxTJUT

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 18 21:58:10 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:58:10 -0700
Subject: iPhone 4 glass cracking issues surface: What's behind the iPhone 4's
	higher risk of a cracked screen? 
Message-ID: <D2791283-97D6-4C76-938B-CC9AF1B68074@gmail.com>

Apple bans screen protecters from there stores while the breakage rate of iphone glass screens rises to 82 percent higher then iphone 3. A design flaw? read more: http://bit.ly/9yKgLs

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 18 22:00:21 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:00:21 -0700
Subject: Broadband quality increasing worldwide 
Message-ID: <79F67E55-2064-425D-A038-10162F595E22@gmail.com>

This is interesting. the broadband quality has gone up. the highest avg is not in the us though. Read more: http://bit.ly/dA5Qt7

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 19 02:28:37 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:28:37 -0700
Subject: 13-year-old South Korean girl sues Apple for not paying iPhone repair
	costs - 
Message-ID: <EFB5467C-DD45-468F-B95D-7E12651E79E1@gmail.com>

I don't know how to react to this one. and the article just ends so I have no summary to give. Sorry. Read more: http://bit.ly/deWk37

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Oct 19 16:52:32 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:52:32 -0500
Subject: iPhone 4 glass cracking issues surface: What's behind the iPhone
	4's higher risk of a cracked screen? 
Message-ID: <201010191552.o9JFqWpa045300@x.it.okstate.edu>

	This is truly in the category of "What were they
thinking?"

	Here you build a device that is meant to be carried
everywhere and then don't harden it against the obvious sorts of
mishaps that are almost guaranteed to happen such as dropping
it. If they made screens and batteries user replaceable, a large
number of issues would just go away. Sure people would still
drop their Iphones in mud puddles and toilets and we can't do a
whole lot about that or what happens if you step on them or run
over them with a car, but portable devices need to be tough so
that the normal wear and tare of daily life doesn't totally ruin
them.

Martin

Sarah Alawami writes:
> Apple bans screen protecters from there stores while the breakage rate of 
> iphone glass screens rises to 82 percent higher then iphone 3. A design 
> flaw

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 19 19:48:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:48:58 -0700
Subject: iPhone 4 glass cracking issues surface: What's behind the iPhone
	4's higher risk of a cracked screen?
In-Reply-To: <201010191552.o9JFqWpa045300@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201010191552.o9JFqWpa045300@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <20B99321-DACF-4C14-8FBE-9612A7B41798@gmail.com>

Oh yeah I agree. the iphone 3 was at least less prone to breakage due to that ring. I wonder why they did that with the 4, I mean  take the ring out?
On Oct 19, 2010, at 8:52 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	This is truly in the category of "What were they
> thinking?"
> 
> 	Here you build a device that is meant to be carried
> everywhere and then don't harden it against the obvious sorts of
> mishaps that are almost guaranteed to happen such as dropping
> it. If they made screens and batteries user replaceable, a large
> number of issues would just go away. Sure people would still
> drop their Iphones in mud puddles and toilets and we can't do a
> whole lot about that or what happens if you step on them or run
> over them with a car, but portable devices need to be tough so
> that the normal wear and tare of daily life doesn't totally ruin
> them.
> 
> Martin
> 
> Sarah Alawami writes:
>> Apple bans screen protecters from there stores while the breakage rate of 
>> iphone glass screens rises to 82 percent higher then iphone 3. A design 
>> flaw
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 20 04:03:05 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:03:05 -0700
Subject: AT&T applies lessons learned from iPad 
Message-ID: <AAD3FA43-2393-4332-A9A7-F7B2F3A1CA60@gmail.com>

So will at&t apply the 3g service no contract plan to iphone users? I guess not. Only to its ipad users. I'm guessing though. Read more: http://bit.ly/9X0hh1

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Oct 20 19:25:43 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 05:25:43 +1100
Subject: Article: BBC faces spending squeeze
Message-ID: <1DC0A27F-98AD-4C7D-9DD5-7FA662D41097@internode.on.net>

Hi!

The topic of the BBC and its World Service has been brought up on list at various times so here's an article which only confirms that what is already rubbish is going to be 10 fold most likely in the coming future.

The BBC will have to pay for the cost of the World Service and accept a funding freeze as part of widespread cuts in public sector spending due to be unveiled this week, its website reported.http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/20/3043215.htm

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 21 04:25:20 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:25:20 -0700
Subject: Pirate Parties Plan to Shoot Torrent Site Into Orbit
Message-ID: <A318C1B7-92D7-4E32-87F5-BF62FBEB7543@gmail.com>

Now this is interesting. Could this really work or will the law of the land shut if down? read more:   http://bit.ly/b5wErd

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 21 14:27:17 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 06:27:17 -0700
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed 
Message-ID: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>

Is this a good idea? Is flash really that unstable? Sure I've seen it crash. I guess this can be a good thing for those of us that know flash is not all that accessible. read more: http://bit.ly/d0u5wZ

From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Oct 21 15:51:08 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:51:08 -0400
Subject: MathML issues
Message-ID: <20101021105108.nxt6k6psw0s80wss@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

I have several questions...

So most of the people here at the university where I work use JAWS, and 
there's a group that has created some pages with MathML. The only 
solution I know about for reading math equasions this way is to use 
MathPlayer. It was last tested by me using JAWS 10 and IE7.

So I've upgraded since then, and the group has asked us some questions 
about their spry panels. In re-testing, I've upgraded to JAWS 11 and 
IE8. MathPlayer no longer seems to work. JAWS will tell me how many 
landmarks, links and headings there are, show the links list, etc., but 
not read any text.

The Known Issues page of Design Science, the people who created 
MathPlayer, was last updated in 2004.

The Freedom Science Fiction tech support person has never heard of the 
MathPlayer program and seemed unwilling to install it.

Since then, I have also become aware of a VoiceOver user on campus. I 
don't know how he would read these Math equasions. I am wondering about 
a more accessible solution for everyone.

Some sample Math equasions can be found at 
http://www.indiana.edu/~iuadapts/test/SpryAssets/01_ss1B_01.xhtml

If anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mary



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 21 17:08:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:08:02 -0700
Subject: Who does AT&T think they are? These prices are absolutely ridiculous!
Message-ID: <8837DC49-071D-481E-BA68-3E5AB0031ADA@gmail.com>

  I have to leave in a while so did not get time to look at this. I also don't like at&t's prices. I mean come on 25 for 2gb of data and 10 for each edition gig. 15 for 1500 text messages? that's ridiculous! Read more: http://bit.ly/ddy3cX 

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Oct 21 17:36:17 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:36:17 -0500
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed 
In-Reply-To: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>

This article is a bit misleading.
Saying the macbook air ships w/o flash installed isn't really saying  
anything.
Flash isn't installed on any computer by default, whether it be a mac  
or a windows pc.  If anyone wants flash, they gotta do the download  
and install first time they encounter flash content on the web.
Saying the computer ships w/o flash is the same as saying the machine  
ships w/o a printer.  Of course it does, but most folks want one, so th 
ey either get one at the time the computer is sold, or they attach one  
when they get home.
This is making a mountain out of a molehill (as usual)
This whole flash thing has gotten out of hand, and I don't know when/ 
if adobe and apple are going to settle their differences, but I sure  
wish it would happen soon, because all this public name calling over  
something that shouldn't even be an issue is irritating as all get out.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Oct 21 17:37:40 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:37:40 -0500
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed 
In-Reply-To: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9329674C-9C0F-4273-B254-75FC08A05745@softcon.com>

And to answer your question,
yes, flash really is that unstable.
I've had it crash my machine when it was practically the only thing  
running.
And, I didn't even load it on my last windows machine, because the  
previous one  had such a hard time with it, I figured it wasn't worth  
the hassle.

From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Oct 21 19:08:37 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:08:37 +0100
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed 
In-Reply-To: <5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>

Well Adobe Flash usually comes pre-installed with Mac OS, and has done so since os 9.2, but as Flash is not accessible, do we care?  If Adobe made their products accessible, then I would care.

But I agree, I wish Apple and Adobe would take their spat behind closed doors, totally unprofessional.
On 21 Oct 2010, at 17:36, Travis Siegel wrote:

> This article is a bit misleading.
> Saying the macbook air ships w/o flash installed isn't really saying anything.
> Flash isn't installed on any computer by default, whether it be a mac or a windows pc.  If anyone wants flash, they gotta do the download and install first time they encounter flash content on the web.
> Saying the computer ships w/o flash is the same as saying the machine ships w/o a printer.  Of course it does, but most folks want one, so they either get one at the time the computer is sold, or they attach one when they get home.
> This is making a mountain out of a molehill (as usual)
> This whole flash thing has gotten out of hand, and I don't know when/if adobe and apple are going to settle their differences, but I sure wish it would happen soon, because all this public name calling over something that shouldn't even be an issue is irritating as all get out.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Oct 21 21:21:57 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:21:57 -0500
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed 
In-Reply-To: <6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
	<6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>

If flash comes preinstalled, I've not seen it.
Every time I do a new install of the os, the first time I hit a page  
with flash content, I'm *always* prompted to download the flash plugins.
If it comes preinstalled, it does a pretty crappy job of letting folks  
know it's there.
This of course is my own personal experience, and may or may not match  
yours, but from what I've seen, someone somewhere is foisting a load  
onto the general populous.



On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Chris Moore wrote:

> Well Adobe Flash usually comes pre-installed with Mac OS, and has  
> done so since os 9.2, but as Flash is not accessible, do we care?   
> If Adobe made their products accessible, then I would care.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Oct 21 21:27:46 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:27:46 -0500
Subject: MathML issues
In-Reply-To: <20101021105108.nxt6k6psw0s80wss@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101021105108.nxt6k6psw0s80wss@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <55A6DB33-2152-4FF2-9BB0-7C2E2769B9F6@softcon.com>

Generally, latex is used for this sort of thing, it handles math  
equasions as well as other formatting issues just fine.
I personally have never used latex, but if you can hunt down greg  
Kearney, I know for fact he has, and may be able to give you some  
pointers.
However, I don't believe he is on this list, so you may need to hunt  
elsewhere for his email address.  I probably have it around here  
somewhere, but I'd have to go hunt it down, and I'd not want to post  
it on list anyhow, so if I do locate it, I'll ship it to you in  
private email.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 22 01:40:22 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:40:22 -0700
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed
In-Reply-To: <5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <7A374DE1-E508-49FE-80B3-004474B09301@gmail.com>

I don't ever remember installing flash on my mac via the web when I visited a site with flash content. I remember updating but that's all so I think mine came preinstalled.
On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> This article is a bit misleading.
> Saying the macbook air ships w/o flash installed isn't really saying anything.
> Flash isn't installed on any computer by default, whether it be a mac or a windows pc.  If anyone wants flash, they gotta do the download and install first time they encounter flash content on the web.
> Saying the computer ships w/o flash is the same as saying the machine ships w/o a printer.  Of course it does, but most folks want one, so they either get one at the time the computer is sold, or they attach one when they get home.
> This is making a mountain out of a molehill (as usual)
> This whole flash thing has gotten out of hand, and I don't know when/if adobe and apple are going to settle their differences, but I sure wish it would happen soon, because all this public name calling over something that shouldn't even be an issue is irritating as all get out.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 22 01:41:39 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:41:39 -0700
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed
In-Reply-To: <C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
	<6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <15AF65F4-AB65-4968-9EAB-14C5B2E319D3@gmail.com>

Yeha the first time I visted youtube I could just play the vids and the same wiht some stuff I was viewing on blackboard. they just played. I needed not to install flash.

Take care all.

S
On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> If flash comes preinstalled, I've not seen it.
> Every time I do a new install of the os, the first time I hit a page with flash content, I'm *always* prompted to download the flash plugins.
> If it comes preinstalled, it does a pretty crappy job of letting folks know it's there.
> This of course is my own personal experience, and may or may not match yours, but from what I've seen, someone somewhere is foisting a load onto the general populous.
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
> 
>> Well Adobe Flash usually comes pre-installed with Mac OS, and has done so since os 9.2, but as Flash is not accessible, do we care?  If Adobe made their products accessible, then I would care.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Oct 22 09:29:41 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:29:41 +0100
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed
In-Reply-To: <15AF65F4-AB65-4968-9EAB-14C5B2E319D3@gmail.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
	<6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>
	<15AF65F4-AB65-4968-9EAB-14C5B2E319D3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C776066-93B6-408F-8146-B55F7B449BB2@blueyonder.co.uk>

I have never had to install Flash either, just updates.  I don't use the Flash version of YouTuve now though, I have switched to the HTML 5 version which I much prefer as VO sees the video controls now which it did not see in Flash.
On 22 Oct 2010, at 01:41, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Yeha the first time I visted youtube I could just play the vids and the same wiht some stuff I was viewing on blackboard. they just played. I needed not to install flash.
> 
> Take care all.
> 
> S
> On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:
> 
>> If flash comes preinstalled, I've not seen it.
>> Every time I do a new install of the os, the first time I hit a page with flash content, I'm *always* prompted to download the flash plugins.
>> If it comes preinstalled, it does a pretty crappy job of letting folks know it's there.
>> This of course is my own personal experience, and may or may not match yours, but from what I've seen, someone somewhere is foisting a load onto the general populous.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>> 
>>> Well Adobe Flash usually comes pre-installed with Mac OS, and has done so since os 9.2, but as Flash is not accessible, do we care?  If Adobe made their products accessible, then I would care.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Oct 22 17:47:29 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:47:29 +0100
Subject: e-Accessibility Plan
Message-ID: <54C75873-3E94-49C2-B83C-4F72B424E62A@blueyonder.co.uk>

This will be of interest to UK disabled citizens. The document makes interesting reading and is currently only available in PDF but reads fine.  I have been assured a Word version will be available next week.

http://www.bis.gov.uk/news/speeches/ed-vaisey-e-accessibility-action-plan

I am excited by this and its about time.

Chris 

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 22 18:40:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:40:58 -0700
Subject: New MacBook Air ships without Flash installed
In-Reply-To: <4C776066-93B6-408F-8146-B55F7B449BB2@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
	<6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>
	<15AF65F4-AB65-4968-9EAB-14C5B2E319D3@gmail.com>
	<4C776066-93B6-408F-8146-B55F7B449BB2@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D719B590-AC09-4821-BB0C-345F44D91C0E@gmail.com>

Ah mine sees this tool bar thingy now whenI view some youtube vids. dunno what it is but I can control vids with that tool bar and the buttons are labeled. Tjat must be this html 5 thing right? if so that looks pretty cool and i don't even have that turned on in youtube I don't think.
On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Chris Moore wrote:

> I have never had to install Flash either, just updates.  I don't use the Flash version of YouTuve now though, I have switched to the HTML 5 version which I much prefer as VO sees the video controls now which it did not see in Flash.
> On 22 Oct 2010, at 01:41, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Yeha the first time I visted youtube I could just play the vids and the same wiht some stuff I was viewing on blackboard. they just played. I needed not to install flash.
>> 
>> Take care all.
>> 
>> S
>> On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:
>> 
>>> If flash comes preinstalled, I've not seen it.
>>> Every time I do a new install of the os, the first time I hit a page with flash content, I'm *always* prompted to download the flash plugins.
>>> If it comes preinstalled, it does a pretty crappy job of letting folks know it's there.
>>> This of course is my own personal experience, and may or may not match yours, but from what I've seen, someone somewhere is foisting a load onto the general populous.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Chris Moore wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Well Adobe Flash usually comes pre-installed with Mac OS, and has done so since os 9.2, but as Flash is not accessible, do we care?  If Adobe made their products accessible, then I would care.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 22 18:49:55 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:49:55 -0700
Subject: Apple promptly fixes Facetime for Mac beta security flaw: ... 
Message-ID: <9373F4A9-123B-466D-BB19-62888A33AB14@gmail.com>

Not much in the way of this article  other then the fact it lists the security flaw that has been fixed. but the beta does not have an update button. Will check the site. Read more. http://bit.ly/aaFByR

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 23 19:56:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 11:56:35 -0700
Subject: 4G defined: WiMax and LTE don't qualify
Message-ID: <A1F2BB7D-011E-4206-9FFF-8AE8A074AD09@gmail.com>

Well that's just wonderful. wimax and clear don't qualify for this in terms of vocabulary. and it will take a another 5 years for this stuff to actually role out. read more:   http://bit.ly/a1LyBc

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 24 12:30:23 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:30:23 +0100
Subject: Eset Security Centre
Message-ID: <E3942C48-AE15-4DF5-82A4-77B702CB637C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Just checking; have the recent developments to this suite in any way been to the detriment of accessibility?

Thank you

Lynne


From Eddie.montanez at verizon.net  Sun Oct 24 14:22:34 2010
From: Eddie.montanez at verizon.net (Eddie)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:22:34 -0400
Subject: HAS ANYONE TRIED THE screen reader COBRA
In-Reply-To: <D719B590-AC09-4821-BB0C-345F44D91C0E@gmail.com>
References: <D2A7B63F-52B9-41D5-9F0F-FD79BC6BD67D@gmail.com>
	<5FEA58B8-C159-46AB-A524-9D6D6B21CDFA@softcon.com>
	<6E1A1A88-906E-4832-AE49-83219C40DF42@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<C082C728-CC31-49CB-A175-288B09A86045@softcon.com>
	<15AF65F4-AB65-4968-9EAB-14C5B2E319D3@gmail.com>
	<4C776066-93B6-408F-8146-B55F7B449BB2@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<D719B590-AC09-4821-BB0C-345F44D91C0E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201cb737e$85b77f20$91267d60$@montanez@verizon.net>

Hi listers, I am just wondering if anybody has tried the screen reader COBRA
and what they think of it.
http://www.baum.de/cms/en/cobra/

Introducing the new screen reader COBRA 9.0 COBRA simplifies working
with Windows 7, Vista or Windows XP for blind and visually impaired
computer users. COBRA incorporates all standard functions of a modern
screen reader in an environment guaranteed for the future. COBRA
prioritizes on users? requirements and ouputs this important information
from the computer monitor into speech, Braille or into magnified form. 

Discover the new COBRA 9.0!

Free COBRA 9.1 RC3 for Microsoft Windows 7, Vista or XP (English, 186
MB)
 
Free COBRA 9.0 Demo for Microsoft Windows 7, Vista or XP (German, 190
MB)
 
(30 minute Demo)
What?s new?
COBRA 9.0 is consideraby faster as all it?s predecessors and offers a
brand new and easy to learn integrated tool to access the Internet (also
with Firefox). Moreover COBRA 9.0 fully supports Windows 7 (also 64-Bit)
and incorporates a powerful screen magnification feature (only COBRA
Zoom and COBRA Pro). Furthermore COBRA 9.0 includes many detail
improvements and it can work together with even more different Braille
displays as before. Also it even better supports Microsoft Office more
reliably and more extensively as COBRA 8.1 

 



A COBRA 9.0 version for everybody!
There are 3 versions of COBRA:

COBRA 9.0 Braille
COBRA 9.0 Zoom
COBRA 9.0 Pro
In COBRA 9.0 Braille there is both speech and Braille output. In COBRA
9.0 Zoom there is the screen magnification feature with speech output.
The COBRA 9.0 Pro version includes all 3 media (speech, Braille and
magnification).



Integrated screen magnification
Also available as of COBRA 9.0 is a powerful screen magnification
functionality with the following features:

Magnification from 1x to 32x
Full screen or split screen views of the computer screen Edge smoothing
with automatic recognition of foreground and background colours Optical
aids (highlighting of cursor, focus border and mouse pointer) Extra
large mouse pointer and in different colours Indication where the
magnification area is in relation to the full screen Inverse display
mode but also only grey-scales, single colour-mode and multi-colour-mode
Shortcuts for fast operation
Windows-key+z, direct call to magnification dialogue plus, magnification

Windows-key+increases one step minus, magnification decreases one step
Further informations
 System requirements COBRA version 9.0 

 

We understand your needs and look forward to answering any questions you
may have.





braille

speech 

screen magnification
 Copyright (c) 2010 BAUM Retec AG. Alle Rechte vorbehalten.
Kontakt Impressum 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 24 20:27:57 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:27:57 +0100
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
Message-ID: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

I'm currently configuring a laptop for our little niece. It uses Windows XP Pro and Gordon currently has Window-Eyes come up at start-up. Although that won't always be the case.

How do you turn on the info bar in Internet Explorer? I need to have the bar visible so I can install the ActiveX control that lets you do updates from the MS website. But I just can't see how.

The keyboard is also cut down so that there is no extended keypad. Even with the horrible mouse controls on this machine I can't see how I get access to the info bar as I just can't see it.

I would appreciate any help as neither Gordon nor I can remember how you do this. It has been so long since we used this horrendous operating system in anything more than an internal offline configuration.

That, by the way, is just personal opinion; I don't want to get into a my toy's better than your toy wast of time discussion again.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 24 21:09:59 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:09:59 -0700
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
Message-ID: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>

> Where will we turn once all unlimited data is gone. I personally thing it's stupid that all unlimited data is gone. I'm grandfathered in and I will stop at nothing to use my unlimited data with at&t. A survey was taken and it appears that over 50 percent of customers want unlimited and would be willing to pay 25 dollars or less for it. read more:   http://bit.ly/cVuwXy

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 24 22:43:59 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:43:59 +0100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
Message-ID: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Well, we've just had to back down on the promise we made ourselves that we'd never buy another Windows product. We've just has to buy a license to RollBack Pro RX.

However, when we downloaded the file using the Mac, we got a very interesting result. Transmac popped up and insisted that the purchased file contains the security threat "trojan.qhost.as" and absolutely refuses to allow us to access this file, come what may.

We plan now to put this file on to our niece's laptop which is running Eset v4 Smart Security which, of course, includes antivirus. As Gordobn's pointing out to me a Trojan and a virus are two different animals and it will be interesting to see whether Eset detects the presence of this Trojan or not.

It could, of course, be a false positive. But I'd be very interested to know whether you got the same problem if, buy any chance, you also tried or bought this product. I don't know whether Eset detects Trojans or not, but we need to find out whether this file is indeed infected. If it is, then Horizon Data Systems has a bit of a problem I think.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 24 22:51:09 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:51:09 +1100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
In-Reply-To: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>

Ye, I bought the product but I downloaded it over a year ago.  I also own Eset Smart Security and I understand that Eset Smart Security is supposed to detect trojans.

further to this, I downloaded the software onto the Mac and my Mac was running Protect Mac at the time but I had no problems, Protect Mac as far as I'm aware is also supposed to detect trojans.


On 25/10/2010, at 8:43 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> Well, we've just had to back down on the promise we made ourselves that we'd never buy another Windows product. We've just has to buy a license to RollBack Pro RX.
> 
> However, when we downloaded the file using the Mac, we got a very interesting result. Transmac popped up and insisted that the purchased file contains the security threat "trojan.qhost.as" and absolutely refuses to allow us to access this file, come what may.
> 
> We plan now to put this file on to our niece's laptop which is running Eset v4 Smart Security which, of course, includes antivirus. As Gordobn's pointing out to me a Trojan and a virus are two different animals and it will be interesting to see whether Eset detects the presence of this Trojan or not.
> 
> It could, of course, be a false positive. But I'd be very interested to know whether you got the same problem if, buy any chance, you also tried or bought this product. I don't know whether Eset detects Trojans or not, but we need to find out whether this file is indeed infected. If it is, then Horizon Data Systems has a bit of a problem I think.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 24 23:58:49 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:58:49 +0100
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>

It's worth pointing out here that these articles concentrate only on the US market.  The US is not, contrary to what some might believe, the only player in the world.  In fact I need to do some digging because I think that, having read this and other similar articles, some of which are actually nothing but complaining rants by their authors, (or at least that's how they come across to me), the US is simply following here where others have lead.  If that's the case, there will be more upheavals in the market before long.  But for now, I think US consumers are going to have to start learning to live with the fact that limited data is a reality.

Gordon


On 24 Oct 2010, at 21:09, Sarah Alawami wrote:

>> Where will we turn once all unlimited data is gone. I personally thing it's stupid that all unlimited data is gone. I'm grandfathered in and I will stop at nothing to use my unlimited data with at&t. A survey was taken and it appears that over 50 percent of customers want unlimited and would be willing to pay 25 dollars or less for it


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 00:05:07 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 00:05:07 +0100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
In-Reply-To: <0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>
References: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <78DB7E6F-8910-4E0F-B73B-499D83F53087@tft-bbs.co.uk>

The fact that protectMac is complaining is proof of the fact that it detects Trojans.  Eset didn't whine about this, so three things here in comment to your reply.

Firstly, it is highly possible, in fact I'd think even probable that the installation file has changed since you downloaded it.  2.  Eset could be missing the Trojan altogether, you can't take it as gospel that just because Eset says it is alright, it is alright.

Thirdly, the reverse may be true.  It may indeed be a false positive.  It isn't unknown for ProtectMac to identify Trojans in Windows executables which simply don't exist.

So I guess I need to verify once and for all which of the two, Eset or ProtectMac is telling us the truth here.  One or other of them is wrong, it would seem.

Gordon

On 24 Oct 2010, at 22:51, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Ye, I bought the product but I downloaded it over a year ago.  I also own Eset Smart Security and I understand that Eset Smart Security is supposed to detect trojans.
> 
> further to this, I downloaded the software onto the Mac and my Mac was running Protect Mac at the time but I had no problems, Protect Mac as far as I'm aware is also supposed to detect trojans.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 25 00:43:13 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:43:13 +1100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
In-Reply-To: <78DB7E6F-8910-4E0F-B73B-499D83F53087@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>
	<78DB7E6F-8910-4E0F-B73B-499D83F53087@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4CCC3906-36A7-401D-BA52-2B8A3B78E1DC@internode.on.net>

I just downloaded the file with the same results here as I outlined, I was curious and I thought perhaps that there may be a newer version of Rollback available than the one I had.


On 25/10/2010, at 10:05 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> The fact that protectMac is complaining is proof of the fact that it detects Trojans.  Eset didn't whine about this, so three things here in comment to your reply.
> 
> Firstly, it is highly possible, in fact I'd think even probable that the installation file has changed since you downloaded it.  2.  Eset could be missing the Trojan altogether, you can't take it as gospel that just because Eset says it is alright, it is alright.
> 
> Thirdly, the reverse may be true.  It may indeed be a false positive.  It isn't unknown for ProtectMac to identify Trojans in Windows executables which simply don't exist.
> 
> So I guess I need to verify once and for all which of the two, Eset or ProtectMac is telling us the truth here.  One or other of them is wrong, it would seem.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 24 Oct 2010, at 22:51, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Ye, I bought the product but I downloaded it over a year ago.  I also own Eset Smart Security and I understand that Eset Smart Security is supposed to detect trojans.
>> 
>> further to this, I downloaded the software onto the Mac and my Mac was running Protect Mac at the time but I had no problems, Protect Mac as far as I'm aware is also supposed to detect trojans.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 25 00:50:18 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:50:18 +1100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
In-Reply-To: <4CCC3906-36A7-401D-BA52-2B8A3B78E1DC@internode.on.net>
References: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>
	<78DB7E6F-8910-4E0F-B73B-499D83F53087@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<4CCC3906-36A7-401D-BA52-2B8A3B78E1DC@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <2C627FF0-9E17-4735-905C-0A6EEFAF3993@internode.on.net>

I retract the below statement, restarted my Mac and Protect Mac came up with a warning about this file as Gordon describes.

Unfortunately I do not have my Windows system going at this time to do further testing.


On 25/10/2010, at 10:43 AM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> I just downloaded the file with the same results here as I outlined, I was curious and I thought perhaps that there may be a newer version of Rollback available than the one I had.
> 
> 
> On 25/10/2010, at 10:05 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> The fact that protectMac is complaining is proof of the fact that it detects Trojans.  Eset didn't whine about this, so three things here in comment to your reply.
>> 
>> Firstly, it is highly possible, in fact I'd think even probable that the installation file has changed since you downloaded it.  2.  Eset could be missing the Trojan altogether, you can't take it as gospel that just because Eset says it is alright, it is alright.
>> 
>> Thirdly, the reverse may be true.  It may indeed be a false positive.  It isn't unknown for ProtectMac to identify Trojans in Windows executables which simply don't exist.
>> 
>> So I guess I need to verify once and for all which of the two, Eset or ProtectMac is telling us the truth here.  One or other of them is wrong, it would seem.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> On 24 Oct 2010, at 22:51, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>>> Ye, I bought the product but I downloaded it over a year ago.  I also own Eset Smart Security and I understand that Eset Smart Security is supposed to detect trojans.
>>> 
>>> further to this, I downloaded the software onto the Mac and my Mac was running Protect Mac at the time but I had no problems, Protect Mac as far as I'm aware is also supposed to detect trojans.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 09:03:37 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:03:37 -0700
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>

Yeah that might be true but if you are gong ot charge overage and some I might add can afford the big bill every month why not make an unlimited plan as well? I don't ever see sprint going not unlimited I mean after 15 dollars for unlimited data I think? Not sure on that last one.

Take care

S
On Oct 24, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> It's worth pointing out here that these articles concentrate only on the US market.  The US is not, contrary to what some might believe, the only player in the world.  In fact I need to do some digging because I think that, having read this and other similar articles, some of which are actually nothing but complaining rants by their authors, (or at least that's how they come across to me), the US is simply following here where others have lead.  If that's the case, there will be more upheavals in the market before long.  But for now, I think US consumers are going to have to start learning to live with the fact that limited data is a reality.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 24 Oct 2010, at 21:09, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>>> Where will we turn once all unlimited data is gone. I personally thing it's stupid that all unlimited data is gone. I'm grandfathered in and I will stop at nothing to use my unlimited data with at&t. A survey was taken and it appears that over 50 percent of customers want unlimited and would be willing to pay 25 dollars or less for it
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 09:04:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:04:38 -0700
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>

If the info bar comes up hit control N and follow the prompts. You might need to hit space on the menu that might come up to bring it up.

Good luck.
On Oct 24, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> I'm currently configuring a laptop for our little niece. It uses Windows XP Pro and Gordon currently has Window-Eyes come up at start-up. Although that won't always be the case.
> 
> How do you turn on the info bar in Internet Explorer? I need to have the bar visible so I can install the ActiveX control that lets you do updates from the MS website. But I just can't see how.
> 
> The keyboard is also cut down so that there is no extended keypad. Even with the horrible mouse controls on this machine I can't see how I get access to the info bar as I just can't see it.
> 
> I would appreciate any help as neither Gordon nor I can remember how you do this. It has been so long since we used this horrendous operating system in anything more than an internal offline configuration.
> 
> That, by the way, is just personal opinion; I don't want to get into a my toy's better than your toy wast of time discussion again.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 09:23:42 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:23:42 +0100
Subject: We've had to back down on something,
	but it's produced some interesting results
In-Reply-To: <4CCC3906-36A7-401D-BA52-2B8A3B78E1DC@internode.on.net>
References: <AD1A1E3D-C3B5-483C-992B-BE1B222B2BF2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<0756227C-DE97-47FA-A14D-4BC7569A90B6@internode.on.net>
	<78DB7E6F-8910-4E0F-B73B-499D83F53087@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<4CCC3906-36A7-401D-BA52-2B8A3B78E1DC@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <E9C69B28-EE33-4FD9-93D1-F704DCFCE1B0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 25 Oct 2010, at 00:43, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? I just downloaded the file with the same results here as I outlined, I was curious and I thought perhaps that there may be a newer version of Rollback available than the one I had.
> 
Then it follows logically that perhaps there is a difference with ProtectMac itself. Perhaps you're no longer receiving updates or something, just a guess. Either which way it's odd.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 09:28:13 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:28:13 +0100
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Yeah that might be true but if you are gong ot charge overage and some I might add can afford the big bill every month why not make an unlimited plan as well? I don't ever see sprint going not unlimited I mean after 15 dollars for unlimited data I think? Not sure on that last one.

The ISPs probably have to look at this from a different perspective to yours. They have to allocate their resources amongst as many customers as they can get in a competitive field. So therefore, they have to restrict, it really is as simple as that.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 09:29:29 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:29:29 +0100
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:04, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> If the info bar comes up hit control N and follow the prompts. You might need to hit space on the menu that might come up to bring it up.

No, you're missing my point. The bar is not visible, that's my problem.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Oct 25 14:39:29 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:39:29 +1100
Subject: Article: Don't let Google off the hook,
	say privacy groups - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Message-ID: <72A01099-8B86-441D-A519-0400B2F6639F@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I'm attaching a link to this article but I'm somewhat puzzled and I have a couple of questions.

Firstly I always thought that data on a Wi-Fi network could be encrypted with standards such as WPA personal, WEP etc so given the case how did Google get hold of this information, does this mean that the majority of people out there aren't taking the most basic of security steps in securing a Wi-Fi network? If that's the case then how can Google be held responsible for someone not securing their Wi-Fi facility?

Whilst Google shouldn't have done what they did this sort of thing should surely serve as a reminder to people at what other people could do and by other people I'm referring to hackers etc.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/25/3047877.htm


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Mon Oct 25 15:34:05 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:34:05 -0500
Subject: Article: Don't let Google off the hook,
	say privacy groups - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
In-Reply-To: <72A01099-8B86-441D-A519-0400B2F6639F@internode.on.net>
References: <72A01099-8B86-441D-A519-0400B2F6639F@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <3A6EAA79-9570-4BD7-A43F-AE54BAE63CDA@softcon.com>

The article doesn't say how the data was collected, but it does seem  
to implicate a piece of experimental code (hmm, wonder what that was)  
apparently, google is already working on things to break weak  
passwords, and that's what was included  in this street picture  
collection effort.
I don't know why user information/passwords were included in the  
things it collected, there's really no reason for this kind of thing,  
but however it happened, I agree with the Australian folks, don't let  
them off the hook, this kind of behavior is prevalent in this country,  
and if google gets slapped down by other countries, perhaps it will  
carry over some of those new privacy concerns back to the us.
(maybe it's time to move to Australia) :)


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 18:25:41 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:25:41 +0100
Subject: Article: Don't let Google off the hook,
	say privacy groups - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
In-Reply-To: <72A01099-8B86-441D-A519-0400B2F6639F@internode.on.net>
References: <72A01099-8B86-441D-A519-0400B2F6639F@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <3204910B-E460-471A-A500-A099C037F815@tft-bbs.co.uk>

You'd be amazed just how many unsecured wireless networks I see on a daily basis.  My work as a network admin and systems engineer for a graphics design company makes me acutely aware of this type of problem.  Even just driving around a housing estate with a range expander looking at networks (but not accessing them), the logs show startling numbers of them which are wide open.

In fact, in one case I saw recently I actually contacted the householder because I could actually see the Samba networked machines as well as the network itself and a little closer investigation showed me that there were no firewalls or anything stopping anybody from gaining access to the entire systems.  I offered the lady who owns the house help and I believe she is going to call us about it.

But I agree, accident or ignorance is no excuse.  That yarn about code slipping through is trash. That's just what debugging is for.

On 25 Oct 2010, at 14:39, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I'm attaching a link to this article but I'm somewhat puzzled and I have a couple of questions.
> 
> Firstly I always thought that data on a Wi-Fi network could be encrypted with standards such as WPA personal, WEP etc so given the case how did Google get hold of this information, does this mean that the majority of people out there aren't taking the most basic of security steps in securing a Wi-Fi network? If that's the case then how can Google be held responsible for someone not securing their Wi-Fi facility?


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 21:51:21 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:51:21 -0700
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
	<8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>

Oh really? Yeah I disabled mine but it will become visible when yo have to install the thing you wan  to  install.. At least that's what I remember anyways.
On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:04, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> If the info bar comes up hit control N and follow the prompts. You might need to hit space on the menu that might come up to bring it up.
> 
> No, you're missing my point. The bar is not visible, that's my problem.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 21:53:36 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:53:36 -0700
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
	<6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>

but spring the tmo will in my opinion never give up there unlimited. I could be wrong and I was grandfathered in to the  unlimited in to at&t and I will do my hardest never to give that up as I can pull down on average of about 3 gigs a month or more using there 3g network both with listening to voicemail and skyping on the  rode. that would cost me 5 dollars more then the 30 that I'm paying now for unlimited.

Take care.

S
On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:28 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? Yeah that might be true but if you are gong to charge overage and some I might add can afford the big bill every month why not make an unlimited plan as well? I don't ever see sprint going not unlimited I mean after 15 dollars for unlimited data I think? Not sure on that last one.
> 
> The ISPs probably have to look at this from a different perspective to yours. They have to allocate their resources amongst as many customers as they can get in a competitive field. So therefore, they have to restrict, it really is as simple as that.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 23:29:59 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:29:59 +0100
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
	<8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60115769-711C-4CF6-82C7-BD56FE20206F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

is this something that your screen-reader did and, if so, was it Jaws? As somebody with sight, it always amazes me just how many people assume that if you are blind you must be using JFW.

I solved our problem eventually by simply cheating and saying, just for once, to hell with accessibility, and I did the lazy person's thing and clickerty-click, clickerty-click with the trackpad and I installed the ActiveX control. Once done everything worked relatively painlessly.

Our little niece now has an up-to-date laptop configuration which also includes the excellent Rollback RX Professional and Eset Smart Security 4.0.

So we feel fairly confident that she should have no further problems.

Lynne


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 23:41:48 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:41:48 +0100
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
	<6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <591EAB7E-5B3F-4A27-90D9-D162EBA6D8DE@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

All I can say is enjoy it while you can.  Unlimited mobile data is becoming more and more difficult to get, and I'd imagine that is true in the US as well.

There are reasons behind it which you may not be aware of. The phone companies charge each other for patching into their networks.  They set out policies whereby they can allocate a set amount of throughput to each customer based on a fair usage policy.  From what I've read, even in North America and Canada, (the supposed land of the free), I don't think it will be too long before unlimited 3G data is a thing of the past, like it or not.  If you read their contracts carefully, you may find that their is nothing in there which prohibits the provider from changing their terms of service.  Nor is there anything which states that they will provide you with unlimited throughput.  That is on the assumption that your providers work on similar terms to ours which, in this respect, I think is likely.

So, like it or not, I think limited data is coming your way and you won't be able to riggle out of it forever.

Gordon

On 25 Oct 2010, at 21:53, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> but spring the tmo will in my opinion never give up there unlimited. I could be wrong and I was grandfathered in to the  unlimited in to at&t and I will do my hardest never to give that up as I can pull down on average of about 3 gigs a month or more using there 3g network both with listening to voicemail and skyping on the  rode. that would cost me 5 dollars more then the 30 that I'm paying now for unlimited.
> 
> Take care.
> 
> S
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:28 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello Sarah
>> 
>> On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> ? Yeah that might be true but if you are gong to charge overage and some I might add can afford the big bill every month why not make an unlimited plan as well? I don't ever see sprint going not unlimited I mean after 15 dollars for unlimited data I think? Not sure on that last one.
>> 
>> The ISPs probably have to look at this from a different perspective to yours. They have to allocate their resources amongst as many customers as they can get in a competitive field. So therefore, they have to restrict, it really is as simple as that.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 00:15:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:15:58 -0700
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <591EAB7E-5B3F-4A27-90D9-D162EBA6D8DE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
	<6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>
	<591EAB7E-5B3F-4A27-90D9-D162EBA6D8DE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <26F051A6-B3C5-46B6-AD49-75E33061DB42@gmail.com>

lol. I'm a stubern person. You migh tbe right, and I'm sure you are but that won't stop me or others who have been granfathered in from trying. Okoff to get rid of a cafiene headache now.

S
On Oct 25, 2010, at 3:41 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> All I can say is enjoy it while you can.  Unlimited mobile data is becoming more and more difficult to get, and I'd imagine that is true in the US as well.
> 
> There are reasons behind it which you may not be aware of. The phone companies charge each other for patching into their networks.  They set out policies whereby they can allocate a set amount of throughput to each customer based on a fair usage policy.  From what I've read, even in North America and Canada, (the supposed land of the free), I don't think it will be too long before unlimited 3G data is a thing of the past, like it or not.  If you read their contracts carefully, you may find that their is nothing in there which prohibits the provider from changing their terms of service.  Nor is there anything which states that they will provide you with unlimited throughput.  That is on the assumption that your providers work on similar terms to ours which, in this respect, I think is likely.
> 
> So, like it or not, I think limited data is coming your way and you won't be able to riggle out of it forever.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 25 Oct 2010, at 21:53, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> but spring the tmo will in my opinion never give up there unlimited. I could be wrong and I was grandfathered in to the  unlimited in to at&t and I will do my hardest never to give that up as I can pull down on average of about 3 gigs a month or more using there 3g network both with listening to voicemail and skyping on the  rode. that would cost me 5 dollars more then the 30 that I'm paying now for unlimited.
>> 
>> Take care.
>> 
>> S
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:28 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Sarah
>>> 
>>> On 25 Oct 2010, at 09:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ? Yeah that might be true but if you are gong to charge overage and some I might add can afford the big bill every month why not make an unlimited plan as well? I don't ever see sprint going not unlimited I mean after 15 dollars for unlimited data I think? Not sure on that last one.
>>> 
>>> The ISPs probably have to look at this from a different perspective to yours. They have to allocate their resources amongst as many customers as they can get in a competitive field. So therefore, they have to restrict, it really is as simple as that.
>>> 
>>> Lynne
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 00:17:10 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:17:10 -0700
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <60115769-711C-4CF6-82C7-BD56FE20206F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
	<8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>
	<60115769-711C-4CF6-82C7-BD56FE20206F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E26A66A5-342D-416A-B03B-2E1CB3099139@gmail.com>

It was jaws but windows beeped at me to let me know that the info bar was at the top of the screen. You can also disable it temporarily by hitting the control key repeatedly while hitting enter or clicking on the thing to install.

Take care.

s
On Oct 25, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> is this something that your screen-reader did and, if so, was it Jaws? As somebody with sight, it always amazes me just how many people assume that if you are blind you must be using JFW.
> 
> I solved our problem eventually by simply cheating and saying, just for once, to hell with accessibility, and I did the lazy person's thing and clickerty-click, clickerty-click with the trackpad and I installed the ActiveX control. Once done everything worked relatively painlessly.
> 
> Our little niece now has an up-to-date laptop configuration which also includes the excellent Rollback RX Professional and Eset Smart Security 4.0.
> 
> So we feel fairly confident that she should have no further problems.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Oct 26 00:33:38 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:33:38 +0100
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <26F051A6-B3C5-46B6-AD49-75E33061DB42@gmail.com>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
	<6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>
	<591EAB7E-5B3F-4A27-90D9-D162EBA6D8DE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<26F051A6-B3C5-46B6-AD49-75E33061DB42@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <883F6F1D-877C-40B8-84A4-8B1A8A6BD73D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Sarah

Believe me, I object just as strongly.  But we just have to face the fact, I can sum it up in two simple words ... "That's Life!".

I wish, I really really wish that how much data I had on my phone plan was the biggest worry I had.  If it were, I'd be one happy bunny!

Gordon

On 26 Oct 2010, at 00:15, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> lol. I'm a stubern person. You migh tbe right, and I'm sure you are but that won't stop me or others who have been granfathered in from trying. Okoff to get rid of a cafiene headache now.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Oct 26 00:39:19 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:39:19 +0100
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <E26A66A5-342D-416A-B03B-2E1CB3099139@gmail.com>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
	<8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>
	<60115769-711C-4CF6-82C7-BD56FE20206F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E26A66A5-342D-416A-B03B-2E1CB3099139@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A18683-603F-4CDE-BC80-184A609A72E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 26 Oct 2010, at 00:17, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? It was jaws but windows beeped at me to let me know that the info bar was at the top of the screen. You can also disable it temporarily by hitting the control key repeatedly while hitting enter or clicking on the thing to install.
> 
I wondered, just maybe, because some of those beeps and pops don't happen without a screenreader active.

Ah well I was just curious. But our little seven-year-old niece will be happy that her machine is coming home from laptop hospital, as she calls it, where doctor Uncle Gordon and nurse Aunty Lynne have made it all well again. :)

On a more serious note, we're wondering about installing Diskeeper and Casper actually so that we could defrag her drive and then make a backup.

Or maybe Drive Image (we have an old version which is accessible) might do the job.

Lynne


> Take care.
> 
> s
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello Sarah
>> 
>> is this something that your screen-reader did and, if so, was it Jaws? As somebody with sight, it always amazes me just how many people assume that if you are blind you must be using JFW.
>> 
>> I solved our problem eventually by simply cheating and saying, just for once, to hell with accessibility, and I did the lazy person's thing and clickerty-click, clickerty-click with the trackpad and I installed the ActiveX control. Once done everything worked relatively painlessly.
>> 
>> Our little niece now has an up-to-date laptop configuration which also includes the excellent Rollback RX Professional and Eset Smart Security 4.0.
>> 
>> So we feel fairly confident that she should have no further problems.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 05:17:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:17:02 -0700
Subject: Texas Sends Amazon.com a $269 Million Sales Tax Bill
Message-ID: <2338A2E2-B206-4689-BFBE-A264A547ECFB@gmail.com>

Will amazon pay this bill? will they stop doing business in texas? read more:   http://aol.it/97jGTv

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 05:24:17 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:24:17 -0700
Subject: Stats don't support hype: digital music is ailing 
Message-ID: <45CA109B-B038-46EB-A173-2CD66B7F91B4@gmail.com>

Will the perchacing of digital music dcline? read more:http://bit.ly/bjFjrA

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 06:38:09 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:38:09 -0700
Subject: Working with a cut-down Windows keyboard
In-Reply-To: <56A18683-603F-4CDE-BC80-184A609A72E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <97993D22-1889-4989-874E-EFA578E7390D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<46322CCB-53A1-4EFB-BB31-45EFB4FCBC74@gmail.com>
	<8A5D4897-03BE-46F7-85A9-EBAD7BB59C37@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<8EF24A51-0697-49FD-9C10-423D30772555@gmail.com>
	<60115769-711C-4CF6-82C7-BD56FE20206F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E26A66A5-342D-416A-B03B-2E1CB3099139@gmail.com>
	<56A18683-603F-4CDE-BC80-184A609A72E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8DA7271C-0599-4E93-A4F8-EB0318F8E42A@gmail.com>

Hmm I dunno about those 2 progams but glad her laptop is fixed.

Good luck
On Oct 25, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 26 Oct 2010, at 00:17, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? It was jaws but windows beeped at me to let me know that the info bar was at the top of the screen. You can also disable it temporarily by hitting the control key repeatedly while hitting enter or clicking on the thing to install.
>> 
> I wondered, just maybe, because some of those beeps and pops don't happen without a screenreader active.
> 
> Ah well I was just curious. But our little seven-year-old niece will be happy that her machine is coming home from laptop hospital, as she calls it, where doctor Uncle Gordon and nurse Aunty Lynne have made it all well again. :)
> 
> On a more serious note, we're wondering about installing Diskeeper and Casper actually so that we could defrag her drive and then make a backup.
> 
> Or maybe Drive Image (we have an old version which is accessible) might do the job.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
>> Take care.
>> 
>> s
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Sarah
>>> 
>>> is this something that your screen-reader did and, if so, was it Jaws? As somebody with sight, it always amazes me just how many people assume that if you are blind you must be using JFW.
>>> 
>>> I solved our problem eventually by simply cheating and saying, just for once, to hell with accessibility, and I did the lazy person's thing and clickerty-click, clickerty-click with the trackpad and I installed the ActiveX control. Once done everything worked relatively painlessly.
>>> 
>>> Our little niece now has an up-to-date laptop configuration which also includes the excellent Rollback RX Professional and Eset Smart Security 4.0.
>>> 
>>> So we feel fairly confident that she should have no further problems.
>>> 
>>> Lynne
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 06:39:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:39:52 -0700
Subject: Once All Data Plans Are Capped, Where Will You Turn?
In-Reply-To: <883F6F1D-877C-40B8-84A4-8B1A8A6BD73D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9260D65C-CEC5-431F-8837-CE37B91F9FCA@gmail.com>
	<45DFA9A1-C758-4136-A3DD-003991557830@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<741DE4AC-FE6D-4C33-9DBA-F65681BABA9B@gmail.com>
	<6C64AE8E-5D0C-4F64-AB9A-985EB760B602@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F524C9C1-2C15-475E-897D-683D7E1F9F78@gmail.com>
	<591EAB7E-5B3F-4A27-90D9-D162EBA6D8DE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<26F051A6-B3C5-46B6-AD49-75E33061DB42@gmail.com>
	<883F6F1D-877C-40B8-84A4-8B1A8A6BD73D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8E214154-C8A4-4550-97A6-38E64CBC9981@gmail.com>

lol. Well I'll keep it as long as I can and see what happens.

Take care and sorry for the rant. lol! Now off to sort out some issues before going  in to the studio tomorrow. See the other list for more info
On Oct 25, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Sarah
> 
> Believe me, I object just as strongly.  But we just have to face the fact, I can sum it up in two simple words ... "That's Life!".
> 
> I wish, I really really wish that how much data I had on my phone plan was the biggest worry I had.  If it were, I'd be one happy bunny!
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 26 Oct 2010, at 00:15, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> lol. I'm a stubborn person. You migh tbe right, and I'm sure you are but that won't stop me or others who have been granfathered in from trying. Okoff to get rid of a cafiene headache now.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From support at tft-bbs.com  Tue Oct 26 13:13:16 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:13:16 +0100
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <42EF003C-6B1F-49BA-B848-9BB2864FE74C@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Juan Hernandez to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne


From blindmagik at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 13:21:45 2010
From: blindmagik at gmail.com (Juan Hernandez)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:21:45 -0700
Subject: New Member Welcome
In-Reply-To: <42EF003C-6B1F-49BA-B848-9BB2864FE74C@tft-bbs.com>
References: <42EF003C-6B1F-49BA-B848-9BB2864FE74C@tft-bbs.com>
Message-ID: <006601cb7508$5bd58860$13809920$@com>

Thank you so much for personally welcoming me to the list.  I will look
forward to reading and contributing where I can.

Cheers.


Juan Hernandez
Cell: 619-261-2568
E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/

-----Original Message-----
From: techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com
[mailto:techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com] On Behalf Of Gordon & Lynne Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 5:13 AM
To: Technology Enthusiasm
Subject: New Member Welcome

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon
and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that
tradition, we are delighted to welcome Juan Hernandez to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members
frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the
primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these
articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links,
rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members
have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile
place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to
contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and
capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll
be pleased to help you.

Lynne

_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web
pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group
since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3219 - Release Date: 10/25/10
11:34:00


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Oct 26 14:39:11 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 09:39:11 -0400
Subject: New Member Welcome
In-Reply-To: <006601cb7508$5bd58860$13809920$@com>
References: <42EF003C-6B1F-49BA-B848-9BB2864FE74C@tft-bbs.com>
	<006601cb7508$5bd58860$13809920$@com>
Message-ID: <20101026093911.ogr70j9wo4swcggc@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello Juan,

Welcome to the list.

Your web site says error 403 Forbidden: Requires login. I tried it with 
both IE8 and Firefox.

Mary

Quoting Juan Hernandez <blindmagik at gmail.com>:

> Thank you so much for personally welcoming me to the list.  I will look
> forward to reading and contributing where I can.
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> Juan Hernandez
> Cell: 619-261-2568
> E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
> follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
> my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/
>



From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Oct 26 21:00:44 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:00:44 -0400
Subject: Something fun: Microsoft song
Message-ID: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>

A friend posted this to Facebook and probably tweeted it as well...
http://q-audio.net/i/6777 (Music made from Windows sounds)


I recognized quite a few of those sounds from over the years. *smile*

Mary



From blindmagik at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 06:14:42 2010
From: blindmagik at gmail.com (Juan Hernandez)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:14:42 -0700
Subject: New Member Welcome
In-Reply-To: <20101026093911.ogr70j9wo4swcggc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <42EF003C-6B1F-49BA-B848-9BB2864FE74C@tft-bbs.com>	<006601cb7508$5bd58860$13809920$@com>
	<20101026093911.ogr70j9wo4swcggc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <00f701cb7595$ddf66340$99e329c0$@com>

Oh? Oh I guess it does... *smile* I am revamping it...  I thought there was
a nifty coming back soon page.  I'll have to fix that.  Thanks.



Juan Hernandez
Cell: 619-261-2568
E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/


-----Original Message-----
From: techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com
[mailto:techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com] On Behalf Of Mary Stores
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:39 AM
To: techno-chat at tft-bbs.com
Subject: RE: New Member Welcome

Hello Juan,

Welcome to the list.

Your web site says error 403 Forbidden: Requires login. I tried it with 
both IE8 and Firefox.

Mary

Quoting Juan Hernandez <blindmagik at gmail.com>:

> Thank you so much for personally welcoming me to the list.  I will look
> forward to reading and contributing where I can.
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> Juan Hernandez
> Cell: 619-261-2568
> E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
> follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
> my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/
>


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web
pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group
since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3219 - Release Date: 10/25/10
11:34:00


From blindmagik at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 17:43:51 2010
From: blindmagik at gmail.com (Juan Hernandez)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:43:51 -0700
Subject: Something fun: Microsoft song
In-Reply-To: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>

That really takes me through my windows journey almost 16 years of windows
use. *grin* and to think, I went from a mac hater, to a mac user. I have
been slowly changing out some of my win pcs for macs. 
 

Still windows is dominant in my home, but mac and linux/unix Are encroaching
steadily

Cheers


Juan Hernandez
Cell: 619-261-2568
E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/


-----Original Message-----
From: techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com
[mailto:techno-chat-bounces at tft-bbs.com] On Behalf Of Mary Stores
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 1:01 PM
To: techno-chat at tft-bbs.com
Subject: Something fun: Microsoft song

A friend posted this to Facebook and probably tweeted it as well...
http://q-audio.net/i/6777 (Music made from Windows sounds)


I recognized quite a few of those sounds from over the years. *smile*

Mary


_______________________________________________

The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
and worm-free

To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web
pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat

You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group
since the 12th of April 2010, at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3219 - Release Date: 10/25/10
23:34:00


From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct 27 18:06:42 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:06:42 -0400
Subject: Something fun: Microsoft song
In-Reply-To: <015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>
References: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>
Message-ID: <20101027130642.0vhs02opzk80wk8k@webmail.iu.edu>

You know now that I think of it, it's been that long for me, too. I 
started off using Windows 95, so it's been 15 or so years. I am 
thinking about switching to Mac for my home computer this summer, but 
have not yet made the plunge. *smile*

Mary

Quoting Juan Hernandez <blindmagik at gmail.com>:

> That really takes me through my windows journey almost 16 years of windows
> use. *grin* and to think, I went from a mac hater, to a mac user. I have
> been slowly changing out some of my win pcs for macs.
>
>
> Still windows is dominant in my home, but mac and linux/unix Are encroaching
> steadily
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Juan Hernandez
> Cell: 619-261-2568
> E-Mail: juanhernandez98 at gmail.com
> follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/blindwiz
> my website: http://www.theblindwiz.info/
>
>



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct 27 18:38:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:38:51 +0100
Subject: Something fun: Microsoft song
In-Reply-To: <20101027130642.0vhs02opzk80wk8k@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>
	<20101027130642.0vhs02opzk80wk8k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <CDE1AE99-E47F-433B-8D19-749C1C666499@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 27 Oct 2010, at 18:06, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? I am thinking about switching to Mac for my home computer this summer, but have not yet made the plunge. *smile*
> 
Can I suggest you join our Mac Access list if and when you have the interest Mary? Just send a message to:
mac-access-request at mac-access.net
and I am sure you will be made welcome and also see a lot of familiar faces, (except for ours, of course). :)

You will also get a lot of good advice and, unlike other groups, very objective opinion. For instance, just because we're Apple OS users, we're not frightened to say something is not good just because of that. That's the only way you can be fair and objective.

Lynne


From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct 27 18:48:03 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:48:03 -0400
Subject: Mac Access
In-Reply-To: <CDE1AE99-E47F-433B-8D19-749C1C666499@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>
	<20101027130642.0vhs02opzk80wk8k@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CDE1AE99-E47F-433B-8D19-749C1C666499@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101027134803.qfsnhlntic0kksg4@webmail.iu.edu>

Lynne, why would I see your face there? You and Gordon are proud Mac people.

I probably won't join until early 2011 because I won't be able to think 
about changing computers until after the holiday season, and if I wait 
until about February I won't be procrastinating. smile

I will probably join, though, especially if I definitely decide to get a Mac.

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Mary
>
> On 27 Oct 2010, at 18:06, Mary Stores wrote:
>
>> ? I am thinking about switching to Mac for my home computer this
>> summer, but have not yet made the plunge. *smile*
>>
> Can I suggest you join our Mac Access list if and when you have the
> interest Mary? Just send a message to:
> mac-access-request at mac-access.net
> and I am sure you will be made welcome and also see a lot of familiar
> faces, (except for ours, of course). :)
>
> You will also get a lot of good advice and, unlike other groups, very
> objective opinion. For instance, just because we're Apple OS users,
> we're not frightened to say something is not good just because of
> that. That's the only way you can be fair and objective.
>
> Lynne



From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct 27 18:59:52 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:59:52 -0400
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
Message-ID: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

For upcoming and future presentations I am preparing, one of the things 
I have to do is a screen reader demo of navigating a poorly structured 
web site. We navigate an accessible, well structured web site first, 
and I have some in mind already since the presentations are for the 
university where I work and some people have made great efforts in 
designing accessible web sites.

Anyway, it's getting harder, I think, to find web sites that are very 
poorly structured and have quite a few accessibility issues. I have one 
in mind which I will share, but I was wondering if any of you have come 
across some web sites that weren't designed with accessibility in mind. 
I think it's nice I have to ask this question, and I hope it's the same 
for you.

One example I will show is my local newspaper site: 
http://heraldtimesonline.com

But if you know of any others that aren't such good examples of 
accessibility, I'd appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,

Mary




From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Oct 27 20:58:10 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:58:10 -0500
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <421894B1-71C9-47CA-A507-D61AD72F512A@softcon.com>

You can't find poorly structured web sites? You're joking right?
Here's how to find poorly designed sites.
1. go to google.
2. search for something, (particularly related to programming or gaming)
3. click on any of the links.
4. be agast at the horrible html code employed.
For that matter, just go to amazon, google, yahoo, at&t, verizon, (do  
I need to go on?) They're all bad examples of web design, as are sites  
like eetimes, techweb, brightsideofthenews, and any number of other  
news sites.  All bad examples of html design to be accessible.
Don't get me started on how difficult it is to even begin to get these  
folks to realize web guidelines exist, much less adhere to them.


From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Oct 27 21:42:06 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:42:06 -0400
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <421894B1-71C9-47CA-A507-D61AD72F512A@softcon.com>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<421894B1-71C9-47CA-A507-D61AD72F512A@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <20101027164206.0vel3u4adc0w0sg4@webmail.iu.edu>

Travis,

Do you really think Google doesn't follow any of the guidelines and is 
poorly structured? It has headings, uses ARIA, and is pretty easy to 
navigate. They could take out that stupid link that might make people 
think screen reader users can't use thier site unless they turn off 
Google instant, though.

OY, thanks for the reminder about CNN. Yeah, a good example there.

No, I wasn't really joking. I tend to be an optomist or else just miss 
things right in front of my face, I guess. I visit sites like Amazon 
and just think, "Well, there's some structure. It could be so much 
worse."

Quoting Travis Siegel <tsiegel at softcon.com>:

> You can't find poorly structured web sites? You're joking right?
> Here's how to find poorly designed sites.
> 1. go to google.
> 2. search for something, (particularly related to programming or gaming)
> 3. click on any of the links.
> 4. be agast at the horrible html code employed.
> For that matter, just go to amazon, google, yahoo, at&t, verizon, (do
>  I need to go on?) They're all bad examples of web design, as are
> sites  like eetimes, techweb, brightsideofthenews, and any number of
> other  news sites.  All bad examples of html design to be accessible.
> Don't get me started on how difficult it is to even begin to get
> these  folks to realize web guidelines exist, much less adhere to
> them.
>



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct 27 22:21:41 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:21:41 +0100
Subject: Mac Access
In-Reply-To: <20101027134803.qfsnhlntic0kksg4@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101026160044.ej9kve5s00g08gsc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<015601cb75f6$23fcb640$6bf622c0$@com>
	<20101027130642.0vhs02opzk80wk8k@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CDE1AE99-E47F-433B-8D19-749C1C666499@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101027134803.qfsnhlntic0kksg4@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <BCC1F8F5-ECDF-4F0E-9CBC-D512807663EA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary


On 27 Oct 2010, at 18:48, Mary Stores wrote:

> Lynne, why would I see your face there? You and Gordon are proud Mac people.

Oopse, I meant to write as well as ours. ;C

Porr Gillian has just done something she thinks is stupid but is too ashamed to admit to his lordship when he wakes up.

She's put a message on Mac Access and I bet she gets an answer. They're really good in that group.

Lynne


Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Oct 27 22:28:21 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:28:21 +0100
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <389DC49E-D5DE-4E1F-AD11-0EBA5910D3B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 27 Oct 2010, at 18:59, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? For upcoming and future presentations I am preparing, one of the things I have to do is a screen reader demo of navigating a poorly structured web site. We navigate an accessible, well structured web site first, and I have some in mind already since the presentations are for the university where I work and some people have made great efforts in designing accessible web sites.

I will snip the rest so you get to my question. Do you mean sites that cannot be navigated at all or sites that are poor to navigate? If the latter, try http://www.mtgsy.net which is the service we use for remote MX.

You can get around the site but not easily. As in there are lots of links but nothing else that quickly helps you find where you want to be.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 23:45:45 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:45:45 -0700
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <21568628-0F3C-4576-BFF9-3D203369F5C0@gmail.com>

Yeah go to www.unlv.edu and www.csn.edu. those are horable in my opinion.

Take care.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> For upcoming and future presentations I am preparing, one of the things I have to do is a screen reader demo of navigating a poorly structured web site. We navigate an accessible, well structured web site first, and I have some in mind already since the presentations are for the university where I work and some people have made great efforts in designing accessible web sites.
> 
> Anyway, it's getting harder, I think, to find web sites that are very poorly structured and have quite a few accessibility issues. I have one in mind which I will share, but I was wondering if any of you have come across some web sites that weren't designed with accessibility in mind. I think it's nice I have to ask this question, and I hope it's the same for you.
> 
> One example I will show is my local newspaper site: http://heraldtimesonline.com
> 
> But if you know of any others that aren't such good examples of accessibility, I'd appreciate your feedback.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 23:46:22 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:46:22 -0700
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <421894B1-71C9-47CA-A507-D61AD72F512A@softcon.com>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<421894B1-71C9-47CA-A507-D61AD72F512A@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <6179DBEC-FE35-49A4-A3A0-22792BB490BE@gmail.com>

There's also copy cats. Search for that. that sight is awful!
On Oct 27, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> You can't find poorly structured web sites? You're joking right?
> Here's how to find poorly designed sites.
> 1. go to google.
> 2. search for something, (particularly related to programming or gaming)
> 3. click on any of the links.
> 4. be agast at the horrible html code employed.
> For that matter, just go to amazon, google, yahoo, at&t, verizon, (do I need to go on?) They're all bad examples of web design, as are sites like eetimes, techweb, brightsideofthenews, and any number of other news sites.  All bad examples of html design to be accessible.
> Don't get me started on how difficult it is to even begin to get these folks to realize web guidelines exist, much less adhere to them.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 28 00:01:43 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:01:43 -0700
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <389DC49E-D5DE-4E1F-AD11-0EBA5910D3B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<389DC49E-D5DE-4E1F-AD11-0EBA5910D3B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C582E16D-3F27-4E24-BBCE-0CA8D4D7317F@gmail.com>

Oh and there' also http://ustream.com. that site is sort of well laid out, but there used to be a settings link so you can adjust your options but i feel like i have to jump through hoops to find it.

Good luck in your project.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Mary
> 
> On 27 Oct 2010, at 18:59, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> ? For upcoming and future presentations I am preparing, one of the things I have to do is a screen reader demo of navigating a poorly structured web site. We navigate an accessible, well structured web site first, and I have some in mind already since the presentations are for the university where I work and some people have made great efforts in designing accessible web sites.
> 
> I will snip the rest so you get to my question. Do you mean sites that cannot be navigated at all or sites that are poor to navigate? If the latter, try http://www.mtgsy.net which is the service we use for remote MX.
> 
> You can get around the site but not easily. As in there are lots of links but nothing else that quickly helps you find where you want to be.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Oct 28 19:45:59 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:45:59 -0400
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <389DC49E-D5DE-4E1F-AD11-0EBA5910D3B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<389DC49E-D5DE-4E1F-AD11-0EBA5910D3B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101028144559.rm398b5688cc0ook@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi, Lynne!

Thanks. That one definitely has some issues. Not the worst I've ever 
seen, but not the best either.

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Mary
>
> I will snip the rest so you get to my question. Do you mean sites
> that cannot be navigated at all or sites that are poor to navigate?
> If the latter, try http://www.mtgsy.net which is the service we use
> for remote MX.
>
> You can get around the site but not easily. As in there are lots of
> links but nothing else that quickly helps you find where you want to
> be.
>
> Lynne
>
>
>




From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Oct 28 19:53:40 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:53:40 -0400
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <21568628-0F3C-4576-BFF9-3D203369F5C0@gmail.com>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<21568628-0F3C-4576-BFF9-3D203369F5C0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101028145340.ziyl6e17cwc44k4s@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi, Sarah

Thanks for these web sites. Wow, home pages of universities ought to 
look better than that. lol I'm glad IU bloomington has made the change.

Mary

Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:

> Yeah go to www.unlv.edu and www.csn.edu. those are horable in my opinion.
>
> Take care.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 29 06:17:28 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:17:28 -0700
Subject: Poorly structured web sites
In-Reply-To: <20101028145340.ziyl6e17cwc44k4s@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101027135952.vhc5w1izx4ckkcwo@webmail.iu.edu>
	<21568628-0F3C-4576-BFF9-3D203369F5C0@gmail.com>
	<20101028145340.ziyl6e17cwc44k4s@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <9D53D4C6-294F-4692-912C-44843B7C9623@gmail.com>

Dunno if my other post made it through but also try googling for copy cats media. you'll find it. there website looks good from the onset until you go to choose a template.

Take care.
Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 

On Oct 28, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hi, Sarah
> 
> Thanks for these web sites. Wow, home pages of universities ought to look better than that. lol I'm glad IU bloomington has made the change.
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Yeah go to www.unlv.edu and www.csn.edu. those are horrible in my opinion.
>> 
>> Take care.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Oct 29 15:26:59 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 01:26:59 +1100
Subject: Zoom H1 audio recorder
Message-ID: <504B62BF-5AAD-4DCB-B98D-7B68311A3908@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Just put the first of a series of reports on this unit on my blog, its designed to supplement the excellent review of the Zoom H1 which can be heard at http://www.blindcooltech.com and as per usual Neil does a superb job at reviewing this unit as he's done with associated products, all the Zoom recorders, the Sony PCMD-50 etc which can all be found on the site.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 29 20:22:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:22:04 -0700
Subject: Fortune: Verizon iPhone a 'fait accompli' 
Message-ID: <FFAB9B2A-6280-4129-8856-7A884BF04601@gmail.com>

Looks the VZ iphone is coming in early 2011.  I still won't believe it until I hear about it. Read more: http://bit.ly/bngcwq

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 30 08:28:31 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:28:31 -0700
Subject: New York newspaper threatens to sue anyone who reads more than one
	article from its site
Message-ID: <EE9A6A7F-34EC-4D05-B516-1DE052E0FDDA@gmail.com>

Ok who would do this? I could not get past some of the article as it is laid out pretty badly but come on! Read more:   http://bit.ly/90mUDM

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Oct 30 13:29:40 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:29:40 +1100
Subject: Midi-mag Mailing list
Message-ID: <C1F5B7A6-DFF2-4011-8044-E4500FB8D96C@internode.on.net>

Go to http://www.midi-mag.org - everything you could ever want to know

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Oct 30 23:01:43 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:01:43 +1100
Subject: The Zoom H1 Audio Recorder, a Mini review
Message-ID: <8C5427D4-4AC0-4811-9C5D-EA5AAC1A4F36@internode.on.net>

Hi everyone!
It seems that there?s quite a bit of interest in the Zoom H1 portable audio recorder so thought I?d write a little about it here. Again if you want to hear a hands on demonstration of the unit then you may listen to Neil Hugh?s review at Blind Cool Tech.
So what?s remarkable about the Zoom H1? The most remarkable thing about this recorder is just how unremarkable it is and the unit does what it is designed to do, that is to record audio and record it extremely well.
The H1 is by no means a professional recorder but it does boast an extremely good quality of audio recording which one would have had to pay more than a thousand dollars for not all that long ago.
The recorder starts off in the shape of a rectangular prism and opens out at the top into a circle, if you put your fingers through the protector guard at the top of this circle you?ll feel 2 microphones mounted there at 45 degree angles to each other.
On the front of the recorder is a simple round button which starts and stops recording, when the H1 is turned on the unit is in ?Standby? mode so when the record button is pressed the H1 starts recording, when the button is pressed again recording stops and the H1 goes back into ?Standby?. You can hear the source of your recording whilst recording or whilst in ?Standby? through the Zoom H1?s headphone output which I?ll discuss shortly.
The Record button is also used as a ?Yes? button in some cases, when erasing a file from the memory card for example.
On the left-hand side of the recorder starting from the top you have your Headphones socket which is a typical 3.5MM stereo jack, output is quite loud, below this socket you have the output volume buttons.
Near the bottom of the unit on the left-hand side is the door to the memory slot, the H1 takes a Micro SD card and can use cards up to 32GB and comes with a 2GB card.
Buttons are a plenty on the right-hand side, at the top is the input 3.5MM input jack and below this are the input up and down controls. By default the H1 is set to an input volume of 50 which would appear to be a good setting for many tasks including talking normally, connecting line in sources and so on.
Next come the transport buttons of forward, play/pause and rewind in this order, forward being the top of the 3. Below these is an indented button which is used to erase a file or format the memory card. To erase a file on the card press play and locate the file you wish to delete with the forward and back buttons and when you?ve found what you wish to discard press the erase button. The Zoom H1 prompts on the display, ?Yes or no?, press the ?record? button for yes and the ?Erase? button to cancel.
Next comes a spring loaded switch which turns the power to the unit on/off or locks it, to turn the unit on you need to hold the switch towards the bottom of the recorder for about 3 seconds and the same applies when turning the unit off. To lock the recorder whilst operating you move the switch quickly, same to unlock.
Below this lever is the USB/power adapter port, takes a mini USB connector.
On the bottom of the H1 is a small speaker, not Hi-Fi sounding but not bad all the same and certainly not the worst speaker I?ve had as you?ll find in the Victor Reader Stream.
The Below the microphones on the back of the h! you?ll find 3 toggle switches, from right to left they are bass roll-off filter on/off, auto/manual recording level and format selector which selects between MP3 and wave, down is off and up is on. Below these switches is a hole for a tripod stand. At the bottom on the left is the battery compartment door, the H1 takes 1 AA size battery.
So how accessible is this player? Its certainly far more accessible than the Zoom H2 and H4 recorders, whilst both these models may have far more to offer the recordist, they?re totally menu driven where as the H1 is not.
There are a couple of things to look out for when operating the H1, when in ?Standby? mode the forward and rewind transport buttons change the sample rate, when the unit is in wave mode these buttons sample from 44.1KHZ 16 bit to 96KHZ 24 bit, by default the H1 is set to 44.1KHZ 16 bit which should be enough for most recording applications. I?m not sure what the sampling rates offered for MP3 are but I suspect they?re probably the same and in any case, if I want MP3 files then I can make my own from the wave files produced by the Zoom H1 on my computer by copying the files from the H1 to the computer system.
As far as I know you cannot ?split? files whilst recording with the H1 but you can mark positions in files with the unit, just press the ?play? button whilst recording and a mark is inserted into the file. These marks are recognised by such audio editors as Sound Forge on the Windows PC and Amadeus Pro on the Mac.
The H1 has a clock function which is also used to stamp your recordings with date and time but I?ve not found out how or even if I can set this yet.
Battery life is very good given that the unit runs on 1 battery, I did some tests with a Sanyo rechargable battery and got 10 hours of recording in wave mode out of the H1, I would have probably got quite a bit more time had the battery been at full charge, it hadn?t been charged for 8 weeks.
So that?s about it for the H1, costs around $120.00 Australian so if I were to say that this unit was a ?Bargain? then I wouldn?t be telling any lyes. An accessaries pack is available which includes an AC adapter, Carrying case and USB lead but I haven?t been able to track one down yet in Australia which is a shame, I believe it also contains a small tripod stand for the H1.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Oct 31 01:52:28 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:52:28 +1100
Subject: Zoom H1 FAQ and Specification sheet
Message-ID: <88A6C65E-14FC-4CA3-A022-49700AD89A18@internode.on.net>

Hi!

For those who are interested in this product you may wish to look at http://www.artiesmusic.com.au/product_detail.php?prd_code=H1%20ZOOM for further information and specifications.

This web page is hosted in australia, was the first one I came across.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 03:30:53 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:30:53 -0700
Subject: Apple sues Motorola: A look at the complaints 
Message-ID: <8886493C-68FF-4CCC-8E0E-9E1F0971490A@gmail.com>

Looks like the battle is not yet  over regarding touch screen patents. Read more: http://bit.ly/cbdWl1

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 03:36:09 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:36:09 -0700
Subject: How science funding is putting scientific data at risk
Message-ID: <7D12BE89-BACD-4664-B85D-D050FE5B3C06@gmail.com>

A lot of this went over my head but as I understand it even science is left out  in the cold these days. Read more:  http://bit.ly/cDjGKx

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 03:37:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:37:35 -0700
Subject: Facebook has acquired Drop.io, which will immediately shut down.
Message-ID: <D314288D-7230-44B9-8F7B-9D662EFB0839@gmail.com>

did they not acquire the site today? that shutdown is fast! Read more:   http://bit.ly/9iSGpB

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 31 13:07:08 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:07:08 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
Message-ID: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

This message is being written as a result of a very long discussion I had with a disabled friend of ours on Friday evening.

I wonder what people's views are regarding the use of specialist products designed, in this case, specifically for the use of the visually impaired, as opposed to similar products designed for the main stream market, but which do the same job.

I suppose a "for instance" is the various digital recorders which Dane has been pushing so heavily, and which Gordon also uses one of. Yes; I acknowledge the fact that DAISY isn't really a main stream media; although that said it isn't designed especially for the visually impaired. DAISY can be used by anybody and, I'm bound to say that, from what I've been reading, is very widely used amongst those with learning impairments; equally as much, if not more so, than it is by the visually impaired.

By that, I mean that the visually impaired use the audio aspect of DAISY. Whereas the learning impaired use both the audio and the textual and visual aspects of DAISY which is where, I think, DAISY is so darn useful. It allows them to see and hear, which makes learning more intuitive, more proactive and, equally as important, more fun!

But I am getting away from the point of my message here. What I'm interested in is whether those with a disability, not only visual, will consider a main stream device, piece of software or whatever application it may be, as opposed to a specialist device, piece of software or application which does the same job, but in a slightly different way. Which of the two is the one most likely to be used by somebody with a disability? And, which ever it may be, why?

As I said I'm just interested because this was brought up in what was supposed to be a short chat on Friday night, but which turned into a very long and interesting discussion with two disabled people and one other non-disabled person.

I'm not looking for a "My Toy's better than".... blah; blah; blah; discussion/argument. What I'm looking for here is an objective, impersonal and, I hope, interesting discussion. I'm interested to hear the views of other disabled people as to which would take preference; the specialist or the non-specialist.

I can see that Dane is enthusiastically pushing his latest toy, but it's also not missed my notice that nobody on list has replied to his posts. Does that indicate a lack of interest, does it indicate that he's not telling anybody what they want to know or does it simply mean that they know it already? Now, again, don't get me wrong; the very same has been true of other discussions which Gordon and others have attempted to start. So it begs the question; why?

I'm just curious; and we all know what curiosity did to the cat; and as Gordon consistently reminds me, that unfortunate little moggy had 9 lives, whereas I only have one! But I'm interested, as a result of the discussion. I stress again that this isn't anything personal; I just thought others may have views.

Lynne



From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 13:40:19 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:40:19 -0500
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>

Lynn.
The most significant problem, (and it's not a small one) is that  
generally, adaptive equipment that is specifically designed for the  
blind/vi market (or any other niche market for that matter) is  
generally very expensive.  Companies who develop the technology do  
this on purpose for two reasons.
First, they figure, smaller user base, so to get the same profit out  
of a device, they need to charge more for it.
Second, they figure (wrongly in most cases) that since most blind/vi  
folks who want/need the technology will get a grant/state/federal  
agency to pay for the device, price isn't an issue.
Of course, both of these criteria are flat wrong, but don't try  
telling them that, they don't want to hear it.
I've talked to more technology companies than I can remember, and  
explained that first off, they would sell a lot more units if the  
prices were more reasonable, and second, if they implemented a payment  
plan, so folks who do not have state/federal funding could purchase  
the devices with their own money which is nearly impossible if an  
individual tries to do so, often because the price is so high, even if  
an individual wanted to purchase such a device, and spent several  
months/years saving up specifically for that device, there are some  
limits at which monthly income caps are placed on how much money a  
person can have in his/her bank accounts.  If dollar amounts surpass  
these limits, then the monthly benefits for this individual will be  
cut accordingly.  So, even if someone really really wants a piece of  
equipment, and does their level best to save up enough to purchase  
said device on their own, they might encounter other obsticales, which  
prevents the purchase of said device.
Now, with that said, the major problem with mainstream devices, is  
that in general they're not designed with the disabled person in mind.
Thus, a product that is almost good enough will never be made good  
enough, because the mainstream companies have very little desire to  
modify their design for such a quote small unquote market segment.  My  
guess is that these companies never bother to take a look at how large  
this supposedly small market segment actually is.
For example, several years ago, there was a talking gps device for  
sale in our local bj's store.  It talked just fine, and it worked  
great, the only thing that was missing was the ability for a blind/vi  
person to actually enter the address they wanted to navigate to.  Had  
this company been willing to make the input process accessible, they  
would have had an excellent fully accessible product, and I have no  
doubt they would have sold hundreds (is not thousands) of additional  
units.  But when I approached the company about making this minor  
modification, I was told that since it was not a product designed with  
the blind/vi impaired in mind, these changes would not be implemented,  
and therefore the product was not made accessible.
A great deal of mainstream companies, is their complete lack of  
understanding of what's required for blind/vi access (I realize  
there's other disability groups too, I'm simply discussing the one I  
am most familiar with here).
Often times, something as simple as a button instead of a touch  
sensitive screen would make the device accessible, but the companies  
designing these devices don't know this, and afterwords, it's just too  
expensive to go back and reengineer the product afterwords to make it  
usable, even if the change is a minor one.
The gps device I was talking about was on store shelves already, and  
this was in the mid/late 90's.  How many blind/vi folks would have  
bought one of those devices if they could operate it themselves? I  
sure would have, and I know of at least two others that would have,  
and I'm sure any number of others would have as well.
Unfortunately, most of the time, when companies think accessible, they  
think expense, and aren't willing to modify the product to match.
Just look at how hard it is to get webmasters to modify pages to be  
accessible.  As you know, most pages could be perfectly accessible  
with a minor adjustment here and there, I.E. add an alt tag to an  
image, attach a title tag to a link, insert descriptive text here and  
there, which for a compitent webmaster is a 5-10 minute job, but after  
being approached, most webmasters have the mistaken impression that  
they need to rebuild the entire site (and often times they do just  
that) to make the site more accessible.  It's really a shame how  
misunderstood such a simple concept truly is..
Unfortunately, mainstream technology companies are the same way.
I think we need to start a thread (or entirely new list perhaps) about  
products that are (either by design, or accident) accessible to the  
disabled users.  This would allow folks to post such products as they  
are found, and let everyone else know about them.
This could be as simple as the fact that johnson and johnson here in  
the states physically labels their bandaid boxes in braille, so you  
know which box is bandaids in your mdicine cabinet.  Sure they cost  
more than the generic brand, and under normal circumstances, this  
isn't necessary, but for that emergency, when you need one in a hurry,  
and you don't have time to check each and every box in the cabinet, it  
sure is nice to just brush your fingers across the backs of the boxes  
and find the one you need in 2 seconds instead of 10 or 30.
Things like that are really all that's needed, and if more companies  
would do these sorts of things, folks might be surprised at how  
accessible things really can be.
Technology is one place where products *could* be accessible,but just  
aren't, because nobody has taken (or is willing to take the time) to  
make them accessible.

There's all kinds of talking products in this country, but the blind/ 
vi user can't use them, because of a vital component being left out,  
like the braille on the mac machines.  That's nice (as far as it goes)  
but it doesn't help if we can't tell what's on the screen.
Talking volt meters, tape measurers, stud finders, laser guides, and  
all kinds of other tools all work great, because they allow the  
sighted user to continue with their work without having to check the  
display of the device in question, which allows a safer working  
environment, and makes workers more productive, but it does nothing  
for the blind/vi wood worker if they can't calibrate the thing to  
begin with.
All of these things are simple to fix, and would have taken 30 seconds  
to correct if the development team had considered their use, but  
they're just too expensive to remanufacturer after the fact.
It's a shame, but unfortunately, there's just not a lot of interest in  
making commercial products accessible.
That's largely why the adaptive technology companies get away with the  
highway robbery they have these days.
It's a real shame, and something I really wish I could fix, but not  
having the materials, knowledge, and money to open a company of my  
own, this makes it impossible to do anything other than keep on the  
companies to do what they can.

So, you understand why it is when a mainstream product comes along  
(like the iphone) why so many of us jump at the chance to have an  
accessible product for mainstream prices, if the ipad had been made by  
humanware, or freedom scientific, it would have sold for somewhere in  
the 3,000 dollar range, which you and I both know is way overpriced,  
but if it was the only option, that's what the state agencies would be  
buying for their clients, and that is the biggest shame of all.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 31 14:39:27 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:39:27 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <CCE55007-25C3-4B96-B2C3-621D44040267@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

This is not exactly the sort of discussion I hoped to stimulate, but nevertheless you raise some good issues and I will respond to them in kind.

On 31 Oct 2010, at 13:40, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? The most significant problem, (and it's not a small one) is that generally, adaptive equipment that is specifically designed for the blind/vi market (or any other niche market for that matter) is generally very expensive.  Companies who develop the technology do this on purpose for two reasons.

It's interesting because I've heard counter-arguments from dealers and developers on this subject. They say, (and I don't mean necessarily those profiting from the particular items we were discussing), that there are significant development costs which must be recovered.

> ? First, they figure, smaller user base, so to get the same profit out of a device, they need to charge more for it.

So we have noticed.

> ? Second, they figure (wrongly in most cases) that since most blind/vi folks who want/need the technology will get a grant/state/federal agency to pay for the device, price isn't an issue.
> Of course, both of these criteria are flat wrong, but don't try telling them that, they don't want to hear it.

Again, I totally understand where you're coming from here. Gordon has never, for instance, received a grant for any adaptive technology item in his life. Everything he has is self-bought. I know that there are other members on list who have received such grants; and good luck to them. But they live in a more generous environment than we here in the UK do. The new government has sort of indicated that this might change; but we're not keeping our fingers crossed and, definitely, not holding our breath.

And I hope nobody will take this as in any way a swipe or a complaint or anything related. But it's amazing now most of the time when you're dealing with companies or groups, they automatically assume that things are, for the buyer, how they are in the United States. Things in most other countries are different, and some people in the assistive technology market and, I suppose, in main stream technology retailing, fail to grasp that fact. Whether people out there believe it or not, there is intelligent life outside of the United States Of America. Certain companies, when they talk about federal help being available, seem to totally miss that point. They automatically assume that everything for everybody is equal. It is not.

> ? I've talked to more technology companies than I can remember, and explained that first off, they would sell a lot more units if the prices were more reasonable, and second, if they implemented a payment plan, so folks who do not have state/federal funding could purchase the devices with their own money which is nearly impossible if an individual tries to do so, often because the price is so high, even if an individual wanted to purchase such a device, and spent several months/years saving up specifically for that device, there are some limits at which monthly income caps are placed on how much money a person can have in his/her bank accounts.  If dollar amounts surpass these limits, then the monthly benefits for this individual will be cut accordingly.  So, even if someone really really wants a piece of equipment, and does their level best to save up enough to purchase said device on their own, they might encounter other obsticales, which prevents the purchase of said device.

Yes; my only disabled employee Gillian is in a similar situation just at the moment. She's trying to buy something and the cost of that something is absolutely out of her reach without significant effort on her part. I wish we could help her; and we might try to do that. I like to think of myself as a fair-minded and open person and it irritates me that blind and other disabled groups have to pay such extortionate prices.

But pricing isbn't really the issue I was trying to get at here. My issue was preferences, not needs musts.

> ? Now, with that said, the major problem with mainstream devices, is that in general they're not designed with the disabled person in mind.

Yes; but surely, a disabled person has to understand that the world in general wasn't designed with a disabled person in mind. They have to adapt. The same, to a degree, must surely be true of technology, don't you think?

> ? Thus, a product that is almost good enough will never be made good enough, because the mainstream companies have very little desire to modify their design for such a quote small unquote market segment.  My guess is that these companies never bother to take a look at how large this supposedly small market segment actually is.

That last point is very very correct. In actual fact, the percentage of disabled people is relatively higher than most people would believe it is.

> ? For example, several years ago, there was a talking gps device for sale in our local bj's store.  It talked just fine, and it worked great, the only thing that was missing was the ability for a blind/vi person to actually enter the address they wanted to navigate to.  Had this company been willing to make the input process accessible, they would have had an excellent fully accessible product, and I have no doubt they would have sold hundreds (is not thousands) of additional units.  But when I approached the company about making this minor modification, I was told that since it was not a product designed with the blind/vi impaired in mind, these changes would not be implemented, and therefore the product was not made accessible.

That's sad, but not altogether unexpected. You have to keep in mind the costs involved with making the change. They'd have to modify their mass production processes I'd imagine, although it would be maybe a simple firmware modification, depending on the product.

> ? A great deal of mainstream companies, is their complete lack of understanding of what's required for blind/vi access (I realize there's other disability groups too, I'm simply discussing the one I am most familiar with here).

I'm sure Gillian would agree with that. She has multiple disabilities, which makes it so that things which even blind people with no other disabilities take for granted are difficult for her.

> ? Often times, something as simple as a button instead of a touch sensitive screen would make the device accessible, but the companies designing these devices don't know this, and afterwords, it's just too expensive to go back and reengineer the product afterwords to make it usable, even if the change is a minor one.

That's exactly my point.

> ? The gps device I was talking about was on store shelves already, and this was in the mid/late 90's.  How many blind/vi folks would have bought one of those devices if they could operate it themselves? I sure would have, and I know of at least two others that would have, and I'm sure any number of others would have as well.

Undoubtedly that's true. But again we're getting slightly off the point I was trying to address here in my original message.

> ? Unfortunately, most of the time, when companies think accessible, they think expense, and aren't willing to modify the product to match.

Again slightly away from my point.

> ? Just look at how hard it is to get webmasters to modify pages to be accessible.  As you know, most pages could be perfectly accessible with a minor adjustment here and there, I.E. add an alt tag to an image, attach a title tag to a link, insert descriptive text here and there, which for a compitent webmaster is a 5-10 minute job, but after being approached, most webmasters have the mistaken impression that they need to rebuild the entire site (and often times they do just that) to make the site more accessible.  It's really a shame how misunderstood such a simple concept truly is..

Web access is, I think, a totally different concept which has already been kind of touched on in a recent discussion.

> ? Unfortunately, mainstream technology companies are the same way.
> I think we need to start a thread (or entirely new list perhaps) about products that are (either by design, or accident) accessible to the disabled users.  This would allow folks to post such products as they are found, and let everyone else know about them.
> This could be as simple as the fact that johnson and johnson here in the states physically labels their bandaid boxes in braille, so you know which box is bandaids in your mdicine cabinet.  Sure they cost more than the generic brand, and under normal circumstances, this isn't necessary, but for that emergency, when you need one in a hurry, and you don't have time to check each and every box in the cabinet, it sure is nice to just brush your fingers across the backs of the boxes and find the one you need in 2 seconds instead of 10 or 30.

Travis, that's exactly why Gordon started this list. And it's why we raised a point a few weeks ago about so many articles, so little discussion. We didn't start this group as an exchange of articles, although that is not a bad thing. We say in the write-up for this list that the discussion of medical technologies, access to them, etc., is why this list is here.

It's just a natural progression I suppose that most of what is discussed here relates to computing. But the list isn't just here for that.

> ? Things like that are really all that's needed, and if more companies would do these sorts of things, folks might be surprised at how accessible things really can be.
> Technology is one place where products *could* be accessible,but just aren't, because nobody has taken (or is willing to take the time) to make them accessible.
> 
But again I think we're getting off the point here Travis.

What I wanted to know is whether people would prefer the device specifically designed for the disabled, where an alternative exists in the main stream market which is usable by them.

> ? There's all kinds of talking products in this country, but the blind/vi user can't use them, because of a vital component being left out, like the braille on the mac machines.  That's nice (as far as it goes) but it doesn't help if we can't tell what's on the screen.

Again, you're missing my point; although I see where you're coming from.

I'm going to cut the rest of this because we're covering the same ground over and over. What I want to know is whether preference is toward the accessibility products when there is a main stream alternative which is usable.

Lynne


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 15:04:45 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:04:45 -0500
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <CCE55007-25C3-4B96-B2C3-621D44040267@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
	<CCE55007-25C3-4B96-B2C3-621D44040267@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A275C8F9-6596-4CC8-BE33-EF801DD7EDFA@softcon.com>

I figured with such a long post it would get shortchanged. :)
That's normal, I do tend to ramble.
However, at the end of the message you didn't quote all of, I did  
specifically say that with products like the iphone, (which is  
accessible) I much prefer said devices to specifically built ones  
designed for the disabled, but what I didn't say, is why.  And, the  
reason is this: they're cheaper, easier to find, and a whole lot more  
user-friendly, if for no other reason, than you can look on any local  
website/user group, and find help with said device, instead of having  
to look in a specific place on a specific site for the same support.
I always much prefer mainstream products where available, for exactly  
this reason.


From mstores at indiana.edu  Sun Oct 31 16:54:16 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:54:16 -0400
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi, Lynne!

Well, my telephone, for example, was not designed specificly for blind 
folks, but I love it because it has very easy-to-feel buttons and a 
talking answering machine. Those things help out everyone, not just 
blind people. And I have to say, it was darn cheaper than buying a 
special phone.

But there are some things I do use specificly for blind folks, like my 
talking indoor/outdoor thermometer.

I think for me it depends on the product.

Mary
Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello everybody
>
> This message is being written as a result of a very long discussion I
> had with a disabled friend of ours on Friday evening.
>
> I wonder what people's views are regarding the use of specialist
> products designed, in this case, specifically for the use of the
> visually impaired, as opposed to similar products designed for the
> main stream market, but which do the same job.



From mstores at indiana.edu  Sun Oct 31 16:58:45 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:58:45 -0400
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <20101031125845.agw377tphccwgsgc@webmail.iu.edu>

Travis, I had no idea that Johnson & Johnson labeled their bandaid 
boxes in Braille. Thanks for letting meknow about that.

Mary'



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 18:08:15 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:08:15 -0700
Subject: Grab your copy of VLC media player for iOS ASAP, it may be gone soon.
Message-ID: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>

Did vlc make a mistake in submitting the vlc media player to IOS itunes store? read more:   http://bit.ly/aXYYp1

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 19:52:50 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:52:50 -0500
Subject: Grab your copy of VLC media player for iOS ASAP,
	it may be gone soon.
In-Reply-To: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>
References: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>

Just for those who are interested, and don't want to wade through all  
the clutter on the article page to find the relevant bits.
Vlc media player is an opensource gpl licensed product.  The app store  
for iphone applies drm to the apps, so they can't be used on anything  
except the account they were downloaded to.  The gpl forbids this kind  
of restriction, and thus the question as to whether vlc made a mistake  
in submitting their app to the appstore or not.
Apparently, this isn't the first time this kind of thing has  
happened.  Apple really should have a checkbox on their submit form  
asking what kind of license the program has, and leave off the drm if  
it's listed as gpl, or (not the preferred option) automatically reject  
the app if the gpl box is checked.
This would prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 19:54:19 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:19 -0500
Subject: Grab your copy of VLC media player for iOS ASAP,
	it may be gone soon.
In-Reply-To: <5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>
References: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>
	<5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <C59A095F-81B8-484B-BBFA-9C3DD59A4E58@softcon.com>

Ok, Ok, I know, I really should make sure I have nothing else to say  
befoe I send a message, but honestly, this did come to me only after  
I'd pressed the send button.
It's apparently already too late, the app has already been removed  
from the app store.
It's a shame really, but I'd wager you could still email the vlc folks  
directly and ask for a copy if you have a jailbroken iphone.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 31 21:29:56 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:29:56 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:54, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
> ? Well, my telephone, for example, was not designed specificly for blind folks, but I love it because it has very easy-to-feel buttons and a talking answering machine. Those things help out everyone, not just blind people. And I have to say, it was darn cheaper than buying a special phone.
> 
That's what I'm asking. OK, let's simplify this a little. Put product A, a main stream product next to product B, a product designed especially for the visually impaired. Product B and A both have similar features, and product A is just as usable as product B, although one might need to be just a little more innovative to use it.

Would product A get the push out, just because it isn't designed for the visually impaired?

I have spoken to some blind people who will always go for specialist products, they say, over the main stream. I'm baffled as to why, assuming functionality or usability is similar.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Oct 31 21:33:21 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:33:21 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <A275C8F9-6596-4CC8-BE33-EF801DD7EDFA@softcon.com>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2D5A5DE2-9A23-441A-9EEB-5BA5CCF2FE49@softcon.com>
	<CCE55007-25C3-4B96-B2C3-621D44040267@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A275C8F9-6596-4CC8-BE33-EF801DD7EDFA@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <1A123B58-B5CE-4788-BB4B-F46A503D65F6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 31 Oct 2010, at 15:04, Travis Siegel wrote:
> I always much prefer mainstream products where available, for exactly this reason.
> 
That's exactly what I wanted to know. As I said in a previous post I have spoken to some blind people who will always go for the specialist products.

My nearest and dearest, Gordon, is the opposite. He only goes for specialist products if there's no alternative. And even then he's very selective.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 23:00:49 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:00:49 -0700
Subject: Grab your copy of VLC media player for iOS ASAP,
	it may be gone soon.
In-Reply-To: <5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>
References: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>
	<5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <19C3BB17-484C-4BFA-A684-94E1970A2D82@gmail.com>

Agreed. but you know some app devs won't give up. take that torrent article I posted about a month ago.

Take care.

S
On Oct 31, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Just for those who are interested, and don't want to wade through all the clutter on the article page to find the relevant bits.
> Vlc media player is an opensource gpl licensed product.  The app store for iphone applies drm to the apps, so they can't be used on anything except the account they were downloaded to.  The gpl forbids this kind of restriction, and thus the question as to whether vlc made a mistake in submitting their app to the appstore or not.
> Apparently, this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened.  Apple really should have a checkbox on their submit form asking what kind of license the program has, and leave off the drm if it's listed as gpl, or (not the preferred option) automatically reject the app if the gpl box is checked.
> This would prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 23:01:26 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:01:26 -0700
Subject: Grab your copy of VLC media player for iOS ASAP,
	it may be gone soon.
In-Reply-To: <C59A095F-81B8-484B-BBFA-9C3DD59A4E58@softcon.com>
References: <6D2549E4-1831-4B00-BE54-958C1C859240@gmail.com>
	<5061BEA8-CF12-439A-B408-BE06266A3D53@softcon.com>
	<C59A095F-81B8-484B-BBFA-9C3DD59A4E58@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D4A327AF-3F12-417A-ACCE-2747CA4B3F5B@gmail.com>

I got it this morning actually. I guess I was lucky. lol!

S
On Oct 31, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Ok, Ok, I know, I really should make sure I have nothing else to say befoe I send a message, but honestly, this did come to me only after I'd pressed the send button.
> It's apparently already too late, the app has already been removed from the app store.
> It's a shame really, but I'd wager you could still email the vlc folks directly and ask for a copy if you have a jailbroken iphone.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Nov  1 13:37:29 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon,  1 Nov 2010 09:37:29 -0400
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101101093729.3s0qydst2ckkww84@webmail.iu.edu>

Lynne,

I think it really depends on the product and how innovative you have to 
be to use it.

If the products did the same thing. OK, wait, let's take a microwave. I 
bought this way expensive microwave because it was supposed to come 
with a Braille overlay for the flat panel of buttons that I could 
absolutely not feel. Turns out the Braille overlay came two months 
later, after I had already made my own Braille for the microwave. I 
could have spent $20 less had I known that.

But let's say you can use a product without any necessary tweaking for 
blind folks if you count something or other. My coffeepot, for example. 
I can count setting the time, though it doesn't talk to me. Does this 
mean my time is correct? Not always, because I might have held down the 
button too long or pressed it more than I thought. Hey, I have CP and 
poor motor skills. Would I rather buy some coffee pot for the blidn 
where I could set the time and have it automatically brew for me if I 
knew one was avilable. Heck yes.Because even though my current coffee 
pot makes good coffee and it's easy enough to use without setting the 
time, I'd like to have that extra feature designed for blind folks and 
would be willing to pay for it.

Mary

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Mary
>
> On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:54, Mary Stores wrote:
>>
> That's what I'm asking. OK, let's simplify this a little. Put product
> A, a main stream product next to product B, a product designed
> especially for the visually impaired. Product B and A both have
> similar features, and product A is just as usable as product B,
> although one might need to be just a little more innovative to use it.
>
> Would product A get the push out, just because it isn't designed for
> the visually impaired?
>



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  1 16:21:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 09:21:52 -0700
Subject: Europeans wake up an hour late as Apple fails to fix iPhone alarm
	clock bug: 
Message-ID: <66BC966A-1728-43F3-80AF-8A36ACDBBA34@gmail.com>

I forgot this little bugger existed. Oops. I would have hopeed apple would have released a minor update to those in europe fixing this. read more:http://bit.ly/bR1CZh

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  1 16:30:31 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 09:30:31 -0700
Subject: The unvarnished truth about unsecured Wi-Fi 
Message-ID: <B428DBB0-E480-48BD-BF7F-8ACFE80E1CF3@gmail.com>

This si kind of a duh article to me but it is still sobering. read more: http://bit.ly/dp0Fan

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 22:07:06 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:07:06 -0500
Subject: New York newspaper threatens to sue anyone who reads more than
	one article from its site
In-Reply-To: <EE9A6A7F-34EC-4D05-B516-1DE052E0FDDA@gmail.com>
References: <EE9A6A7F-34EC-4D05-B516-1DE052E0FDDA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C43337AE-3B4F-4E02-8EC0-94C4FD7771AF@softcon.com>

This particular article is about a site that does nothing but steal  
articles from other places online, strip off the attribution, and post  
them as their own.  Anyone who pays this site a penny is helping to  
promote copyright infringement, dmca law, and a whole host of other  
things.  I'm really surprised the site is still operational.
It reallly is a shame what folks will do these days.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Oct 31 22:15:51 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:15:51 -0500
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E4B82834-87B7-4335-A0BA-8575BFC66F0D@softcon.com>

When we lived in Delaware, there was a store nearby, tht would sell  
products companies no longer stocked or sold.  A couple of times, I  
found products in there I would (and did) absolutely purchase, and  
some of them didn't have adaptive equivalents.
I got such things from them as a talking compass, talking ruler, (yes,  
a ruler, the kind the insurance agents use to measure how large your  
house is) talking caller-id boxes, and I think once (though we didn't  
buy one) they had talking thermometers.  What they had varied from  
week to week, but their stuff was always reasonably priced, and it was  
all mainstream products.  But, since they were selling them, I'm  
assuming the companies who initially had them didn't sell significant  
amounts of them, so stopped supporting them.  My guess is, folks just  
plain didn't know about them.
Admittedly, in general, the products were shoddy workmanship, which  
could just as easily be the reason they weren't sold anymore, but  
still).
The talking compass didn't work well, because it was supposed to  
rotate to the direction it was supposed to be pointing to, and though  
the speech spoke the proper direction, the visual representation  
rarely moved to match.  The talking ruler only worked for about 15  
minutes, (though to be fair, I've never put another set of batteries  
in it to see if it was just the batteries that were faulty) and the  
talking caller id box was the same exact model we already had, so we  
knew it was good, and it is still working actually.
So, it was hit or miss, but still, it was always fun to see what they  
had, and some of the products certainly would be on my purchase list.   
Given a choice, I'll take mainstream products over those specifically  
designed for the disabled market, because they're almost always  
cheaper, generally have only one or two work-arounds needed, and are  
usually returnable, unlike most adaptive products.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  1 21:51:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:51:52 -0700
Subject: New York newspaper threatens to sue anyone who reads more than
	one article from its site
In-Reply-To: <C43337AE-3B4F-4E02-8EC0-94C4FD7771AF@softcon.com>
References: <EE9A6A7F-34EC-4D05-B516-1DE052E0FDDA@gmail.com>
	<C43337AE-3B4F-4E02-8EC0-94C4FD7771AF@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <0B29CE28-1FBF-4B17-9F78-CC245B188857@gmail.com>

Oo not good! Yeah I am surprised the site is still up and running. Is there a way someone can ask them to shut it down or will we have to wait until someone with higher powers that beeshuts them down for us. lol!

Take care.

 
Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 

On Oct 31, 2010, at 3:07 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> This particular article is about a site that does nothing but steal articles from other places online, strip off the attribution, and post them as their own.  Anyone who pays this site a penny is helping to promote copyright infringement, dmca law, and a whole host of other things.  I'm really surprised the site is still operational.
> It reallly is a shame what folks will do these days.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Nov  2 02:37:52 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:37:52 +1100
Subject: A tip to overcome one of the annoying problems with the Zoom H1
Message-ID: <BEB54D2E-A902-446D-AC99-8758D5ECCFA8@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Now this tip isn't going to be for everyone as not everyone wears hearing instruments which can be used with induction loops but if you do? Well here's a handy way to use your instruments to great effect when sorting out one of the very few functions of the Zoom H1 which isn't accessible.

I'm talking about the Bit and Sample rate of the file you're recording, this is changed in "Standby" mode by using the fast forward and rewind buttons, rewind takes you back through the cycle whilst fast forward takes you forward through the cycle of bit and sample rates.

When recording using Wave Broadcast format you cycle through 44.1KHZ 16 Bit, 48KHZ 24 bit and so on right the way up to 96KHZ 24 and back to 44.1KHZ 16 bit so how to tell where you are.

Well turn your instruments to pick up induction loops and put the recorder near them.  Now start recording, you'll be able to hear the recorder as it writes to the SD card and the slower the rate of writing then the small the sample size, 44.1KHZ 16 bit has the Zoom H1 writing to the SD card about every half second whilst 96KHZ 24 bit has the H1 writing to the SD card every sixth of a second or so.

Just thought others may find this helpful as I do, still haven't worked out a way to set the date and time for date/time stamping of recordings but I have to admit to not trying too hard, after all! one can change all that when the files are copied from the H1 to your computer.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 03:29:46 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 20:29:46 -0700
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special 
Message-ID: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>

Shop around before you go for the itunes promos. Read more: http://bit.ly/bJSKuR

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 03:31:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 20:31:02 -0700
Subject: A tip to overcome one of the annoying problems with the Zoom H1
In-Reply-To: <BEB54D2E-A902-446D-AC99-8758D5ECCFA8@internode.on.net>
References: <BEB54D2E-A902-446D-AC99-8758D5ECCFA8@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <C66417D5-7BC4-4FA7-A492-FBA15F51604D@gmail.com>

Oh cool. I wonder if that would  work with a simple amp and choir device I use to diagnose hd problems?

Take care.

S
On Nov 1, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Now this tip isn't going to be for everyone as not everyone wears hearing instruments which can be used with induction loops but if you do? Well here's a handy way to use your instruments to great effect when sorting out one of the very few functions of the Zoom H1 which isn't accessible.
> 
> I'm talking about the Bit and Sample rate of the file you're recording, this is changed in "Standby" mode by using the fast forward and rewind buttons, rewind takes you back through the cycle whilst fast forward takes you forward through the cycle of bit and sample rates.
> 
> When recording using Wave Broadcast format you cycle through 44.1KHZ 16 Bit, 48KHZ 24 bit and so on right the way up to 96KHZ 24 and back to 44.1KHZ 16 bit so how to tell where you are.
> 
> Well turn your instruments to pick up induction loops and put the recorder near them.  Now start recording, you'll be able to hear the recorder as it writes to the SD card and the slower the rate of writing then the small the sample size, 44.1KHZ 16 bit has the Zoom H1 writing to the SD card about every half second whilst 96KHZ 24 bit has the H1 writing to the SD card every sixth of a second or so.
> 
> Just thought others may find this helpful as I do, still haven't worked out a way to set the date and time for date/time stamping of recordings but I have to admit to not trying too hard, after all! one can change all that when the files are copied from the H1 to your computer.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 03:47:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 20:47:16 -0700
Subject: Introducing the next generation keyboard by the one and only!
Message-ID: <27C6AB2E-9353-4631-ADE7-1FDED5958838@gmail.com>

I don't think this is blind friendly at all. it sounds liek a good idea but still. Using your hands and gestures to type? read more:  http://bit.ly/c4B2rC

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov  2 04:42:14 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 23:42:14 -0500
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special 
In-Reply-To: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D778F0B2-BCF8-47E6-9A6F-656CAA903310@softcon.com>

Oh heck, we already knew that.
I don't bother to purchase audio books from itunes, because the same  
exact ones (and I mean exactly the same ones) can behad at audible for  
less, espeiclaly if you have an audible membership plan of some sort.
It always boggles the mind when companies try to make it look like  
you're getting a good deal, when what you're really getting is ripped  
off.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Nov  2 05:08:33 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 16:08:33 +1100
Subject: A tip to overcome one of the annoying problems with the Zoom H1
In-Reply-To: <C66417D5-7BC4-4FA7-A492-FBA15F51604D@gmail.com>
References: <BEB54D2E-A902-446D-AC99-8758D5ECCFA8@internode.on.net>
	<C66417D5-7BC4-4FA7-A492-FBA15F51604D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6E51C4D1-8A8D-45EB-9632-D06BAFF5C16C@internode.on.net>

No harm in trying it I spose <smile>.


On 02/11/2010, at 2:31 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Oh cool. I wonder if that would  work with a simple amp and choir device I use to diagnose hd problems?
> 
> Take care.
> 
> S
> On Nov 1, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> Now this tip isn't going to be for everyone as not everyone wears hearing instruments which can be used with induction loops but if you do? Well here's a handy way to use your instruments to great effect when sorting out one of the very few functions of the Zoom H1 which isn't accessible.
>> 
>> I'm talking about the Bit and Sample rate of the file you're recording, this is changed in "Standby" mode by using the fast forward and rewind buttons, rewind takes you back through the cycle whilst fast forward takes you forward through the cycle of bit and sample rates.
>> 
>> When recording using Wave Broadcast format you cycle through 44.1KHZ 16 Bit, 48KHZ 24 bit and so on right the way up to 96KHZ 24 and back to 44.1KHZ 16 bit so how to tell where you are.
>> 
>> Well turn your instruments to pick up induction loops and put the recorder near them.  Now start recording, you'll be able to hear the recorder as it writes to the SD card and the slower the rate of writing then the small the sample size, 44.1KHZ 16 bit has the Zoom H1 writing to the SD card about every half second whilst 96KHZ 24 bit has the H1 writing to the SD card every sixth of a second or so.
>> 
>> Just thought others may find this helpful as I do, still haven't worked out a way to set the date and time for date/time stamping of recordings but I have to admit to not trying too hard, after all! one can change all that when the files are copied from the H1 to your computer.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From support at mac-access.net  Tue Nov  2 06:32:29 2010
From: support at mac-access.net (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 06:32:29 +0000
Subject: Possible Service Disruption
Message-ID: <0AF34651-8347-4FF4-8F75-90CAD00F5A8C@mac-access.net>

Hello all

Tuesday, 2 November 2010, sees the change-over from one communications service provider to another for us here.

Whilst the services being changed should not, ideally, affect any of the services we provide to others as the changeover affects a parallel trunk line, it is possible that, during the course of the installation, the engineer may need to break the connection to the main line. Whilst we believe this is extremely unlikely, we would like to apologise in advance for any outage. 

The work will take place between 08:00 and 13:00 UTC today, 2 November, and all being well, should take no longer than 15 to 30 minutes.

We thank you for your cooperation.

Lynne and Gordon



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 09:14:13 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:14:13 +0000
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special 
In-Reply-To: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>

This should be on the Mac Access List, as it's Apple related?

Lynne

On 2 Nov 2010, at 03:29, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Shop around before you go for the itunes promos. Read more: http://bit.ly/bJSKuR
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 11:41:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:41:51 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <20101101093729.3s0qydst2ckkww84@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101101093729.3s0qydst2ckkww84@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <BE719E8C-8474-47E0-895A-2CBAFCEC3251@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 1 Nov 2010, at 13:37, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? I think it really depends on the product and how innovative you have to be to use it.
> 
yes, I can understand that.

> ? If the products did the same thing. OK, wait, let's take a microwave. I bought this way expensive microwave because it was supposed to come with a Braille overlay for the flat panel of buttons that I could absolutely not feel. Turns out the Braille overlay came two months later, after I had already made my own Braille for the microwave. I could have spent $20 less had I known that.
> 
This is a very good example of what I was trying to get across in my first post. There are times when, with a little initiative, things in the main stream can be adapted for use by the blind or bodily disabled/

> ? But let's say you can use a product without any necessary tweaking for blind folks if you count something or other. My coffeepot, for example. I can count setting the time, though it doesn't talk to me. Does this mean my time is correct? Not always, because I might have held down the button too long or pressed it more than I thought. Hey, I have CP and poor motor skills. Would I rather buy some coffee pot for the blidn where I could set the time and have it automatically brew for me if I knew one was avilable. Heck yes.Because even though my current coffee pot makes good coffee and it's easy enough to use without setting the time, I'd like to have that extra feature designed for blind folks and would be willing to pay for it.
> 
Right, I see where you're going there. I suppose it comes down to individual choice, the product and the person. Where possible, I know that Gordon prefers to use main stream products and he only adapts things when it's totally necessary.

Our kitchen oven, for instance. It has little notches on the body when you turn the dial. There is a little pointer which you're supposed to align with the notch for the time, and also the temperature. But the pointer is impossible to feel, as it's just a painted line on the dial itself.

So, Gordon, with my help, cut very small notches in the edge of the dial on alignment with each setting. By counting the notches, he manages to get the time and temperature correct for what he needs.

Now, as an alternative, we could have bought the Cobolt Systems talking microwave and oven combi. That would have allowed him to set the time and temperature accurately; but would have involved an enormous extra outlay.  Why?  Although a product is available to do the job in the access world, Gordon's preference is to be innovative. It works, so why pay out all that money?

I know that some people can get grants in different places for different things. For instance I know of one person who managed, with the help of his medical adviser, to get a grant for a portable computer. That's a great thing, and it's a shame it isn't available elsewhere.

Blind and disabled people deserve all the support they can get; and I, as somebody who isn't disabled, feel strongly that the disabled in the UK get a very raw deal.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 17:18:46 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:18:46 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <E4B82834-87B7-4335-A0BA-8575BFC66F0D@softcon.com>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E4B82834-87B7-4335-A0BA-8575BFC66F0D@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <F809EEA6-AE56-4430-AC36-0229383C27B9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 31 Oct 2010, at 22:15, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? When we lived in Delaware, there was a store nearby, tht would sell products companies no longer stocked or sold.  A couple of times, I found products in there I would (and did) absolutely purchase, and some of them didn't have adaptive equivalents.

It's amazing how often that does happen actually. Another for instance is Gordon's "Sharp" talking calculator, clock, timer, stopwatch.

I don't think those devices are in production any more, more's the pity. But Gordon says he's had his since 1984 and wouldn't part with it for anything.

But that device doesn't seem to have anything to match its specifications available over here. The RNIB sells clocks, watches and even calculators; but not all in one unit; and definitely not with the same excellent quality off speech.

Gordon says that it's one of the original Texas Instruments speech units they used to use in those which, for whatever reason, they stopped manufacturing. And I suppose this this another example of the latest not always being the greatest. :)

> ? I got such things from them as a talking compass, talking ruler, (yes, a ruler, the kind the insurance agents use to measure how large your house is) talking caller-id boxes, and I think once (though we didn't buy one) they had talking thermometers.  What they had varied from week to week, but their stuff was always reasonably priced, and it was all mainstream products.  But, since they were selling them, I'm assuming the companies who initially had them didn't sell significant amounts of them, so stopped supporting them.  My guess is, folks just plain didn't know about them.

It's a shame that happens. I suppose they're sold as novelty items; items which might amuse those with absolutely no concept of blindness or any other form of disability. Maybe they'd buy these things, play with them for half an hour or until the battery dies and then just trash them.

> ? Admittedly, in general, the products were shoddy workmanship, which could just as easily be the reason they weren't sold anymore, but still).
> The talking compass didn't work well, because it was supposed to rotate to the direction it was supposed to be pointing to, and though the speech spoke the proper direction, the visual representation rarely moved to match.  The talking ruler only worked for about 15 minutes, (though to be fair, I've never put another set of batteries in it to see if it was just the batteries that were faulty) and the talking caller id box was the same exact model we already had, so we knew it was good, and it is still working actually.

That last item is something which I'm thinking about buying one of, for Gordon's use in his work. Just today we switched providers back to BT, who properly support the caller display feature. I'm told that Virgin Media here in the UK don't support that. But that's entirely a different issue. Oopse! I just mentioned that to Gordon and his response was "There's not a lot of point since our phones are all cordless". Yes, he's got a point; nobody would hear it anyway!

> ? So, it was hit or miss, but still, it was always fun to see what they had, and some of the products certainly would be on my purchase list.  Given a choice, I'll take mainstream products over those specifically designed for the disabled market, because they're almost always cheaper, generally have only one or two work-arounds needed, and are usually returnable, unlike most adaptive products.

The price issue is certainly one of the things that main stream has in its favour. And I'm still of the opinion that the adaptive companies, without exception, over-price their products, using smaller market as an excuse. I wouldn't mind betting that Freedom Scientific and GW Micro return some pretty high profit margins if one could ever get to see their annual financial reports and turn-overs.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 17:24:44 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:24:44 +0000
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special 
In-Reply-To: <D778F0B2-BCF8-47E6-9A6F-656CAA903310@softcon.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<D778F0B2-BCF8-47E6-9A6F-656CAA903310@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <86FDE031-972F-464B-BBD4-48CF122C5677@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 2 Nov 2010, at 04:42, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? I don't bother to purchase audio books from itunes, because the same exact ones (and I mean exactly the same ones) can behad at audible for less, espeiclaly if you have an audible membership plan of some sort.

It's very interesting that you mention this actually because I noticed just yesterday that was the case. Gordon does have an Audible account and I confess that sometimes I do take sneak peaks at it; just to see what's available and what's not.

What we generally find frustrating though is that all the books on Audible, and certainly all those on iTunes, are all fiction and no reference material. Also most of it, and I don't mean this in any way offensively towards anybody, but most of the books are American.

> ? It always boggles the mind when companies try to make it look like you're getting a good deal, when what you're really getting is ripped off.
> 
And yes, Apple is no exception at times. They're out to make money just like everybody else. In general their products are good; but you have to watch your back all the same.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:16:46 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:16:46 -0700
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special
In-Reply-To: <D778F0B2-BCF8-47E6-9A6F-656CAA903310@softcon.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<D778F0B2-BCF8-47E6-9A6F-656CAA903310@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <B7813F56-3B3C-4660-B9CC-C05AE8DF4FA2@gmail.com>

I don't have an audable account. Ok I had one but yeah. and if not I can make my own m4b files. I do it all the time from books I already have and they sound better. lol!
On Nov 1, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Oh heck, we already knew that.
> I don't bother to purchase audio books from itunes, because the same exact ones (and I mean exactly the same ones) can behad at audible for less, espeiclaly if you have an audible membership plan of some sort.
> It always boggles the mind when companies try to make it look like you're getting a good deal, when what you're really getting is ripped off.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:17:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:17:34 -0700
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special
In-Reply-To: <319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>

I personally don't think it is as you can apply it to any promo anything. Think about audable. I can get the hary potter books for a lot cheaper at amazon any time probably or even ebay then I can ever get on itunes and audable.

S
On Nov 2, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> This should be on the Mac Access List, as it's Apple related?
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 2 Nov 2010, at 03:29, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Shop around before you go for the itunes promos. Read more: http://bit.ly/bJSKuR
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:27:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:27:58 -0700
Subject: Fix for iPhone alarm woes revealed: A bug in the iPhone operating
	system 
Message-ID: <BA0EB6C6-4C6B-46E0-8C6A-E9BC50E61766@gmail.com>

There is a fix bu I thingk apple should have seen this coming. Will the USA be next inline for waking up an hour late, or early depending on how you look at it? Read more: http://bit.ly/dAktFQ

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov  2 18:31:33 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:31:33 -0500
Subject: Introducing the next generation keyboard by the one and only!
In-Reply-To: <27C6AB2E-9353-4631-ADE7-1FDED5958838@gmail.com>
References: <27C6AB2E-9353-4631-ADE7-1FDED5958838@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6753E840-CF29-47CE-9592-A1CAFE3F0832@softcon.com>

You know, I think they have the right idea, even if their  
implementation may not be as friendly to the disabled as it might  
otherwise be.  I have to wonder myself why we still use the qwerty  
keyboards, when the dvorak keyboard is a lot faster (once one gets  
used to them) and is a lot more natural.  The qwerty keyboard was  
deliberately made to slow the user down, so the manual typewriter keys  
wouldn't get jammed.  On computers, this is not an issue, yet we still  
stick with this awkward and useless layout.  Why? Because (as managers  
are so fond of saying) "It's always been done that way".
I'm thinking it might be time to turn the whole input methodology on  
it's ear, and get stuff that works much better than what we have.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:35:13 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:35:13 -0700
Subject: Introducing the next generation keyboard by the one and only!
In-Reply-To: <6753E840-CF29-47CE-9592-A1CAFE3F0832@softcon.com>
References: <27C6AB2E-9353-4631-ADE7-1FDED5958838@gmail.com>
	<6753E840-CF29-47CE-9592-A1CAFE3F0832@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <258F33C8-10FE-4E69-BEE2-19115AF4D3D6@gmail.com>

I've tried the dvorak layout and I type slowly about a word a minute with that thing whereas I can type 66.5 sores a minute maybe a bit faster with the qwerty layout.

S
On Nov 2, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> You know, I think they have the right idea, even if their implementation may not be as friendly to the disabled as it might otherwise be.  I have to wonder myself why we still use the qwerty keyboards, when the dvorak keyboard is a lot faster (once one gets used to them) and is a lot more natural.  The qwerty keyboard was deliberately made to slow the user down, so the manual typewriter keys wouldn't get jammed.  On computers, this is not an issue, yet we still stick with this awkward and useless layout.  Why? Because (as managers are so fond of saying) "It's always been done that way".
> I'm thinking it might be time to turn the whole input methodology on it's ear, and get stuff that works much better than what we have.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:38:37 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:38:37 -0700
Subject: Sophos releases free Mac anti-virus for home users: ... 
Message-ID: <B38DEEC0-1AB8-41DF-99F5-99276B662194@gmail.com>

I think the author was a bit out there in only poling 600 people. Of corse the results will be a bit scewed. In the same breath though Is this a good idea? read more: http://bit.ly/cAUfio

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov  2 18:49:47 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:49:47 -0500
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <F809EEA6-AE56-4430-AC36-0229383C27B9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E4B82834-87B7-4335-A0BA-8575BFC66F0D@softcon.com>
	<F809EEA6-AE56-4430-AC36-0229383C27B9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B24BAE9D-C061-40A3-940F-257C6115CDD1@softcon.com>

Actually, we do have a cordless phone where both the base and handset  
speak the caller-id information.
We also have the phone plugged into another talking caller-id box  
though, because the phone itself only shows the name on the caller-id  
information, while the stand-alone box speaks the actual phone number.
So, although it's sometimes useless, the handset does tell us who's  
calling, though it has no pronounciation rules, so if someone calls  
with a long string of nonsense characters like fcitfbbcs, it will try  
to pronounce it as a word, which doesn't do anybody any favors, but  
it's still better than nothing.
And, the fact that both the base and the handset talk is of great  
utility, especially if you have the handset in another part of the  
house or outside, where the base can't be heard, you still get the  
handset talking, and that's a huge help.
This was not an adaptive product, it's a mainstream product we  
purchased at the same time we setup our phone service in a house we  
never did occupy, as the whole deal fell through, and all the utility  
turn on fees were a huge waste of money.  We did get to keep the  
talking caller-id cordless phones though, so I guess it wasn't all a  
loss.
We'll have to check to be sure, but Maria says she thinks it's made by  
panasonic, so perhaps you could track down one of those for yourselves.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:51:41 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:51:41 -0700
Subject: Oracle to buy ATG for $1 billion 
Message-ID: <542C0BD7-C36C-424A-8CA2-6E6531D5820D@gmail.com>

Is the company dong agood thing by this? I've never heard of AGT unless it's in technologies I use and don't realise it. Read more: http://bit.ly/cnpfn2

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:57:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:57:14 -0700
Subject: Google sues US government, says bid terms favor Microsoft
Message-ID: <9CF629AB-0EE1-43A8-9CC2-24FBD914975A@gmail.com>

Hmm I don't know what to make out of this. 2 companies against the government. one sues. read more:   http://bit.ly/dbHMsM

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov  2 19:00:57 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:00:57 -0500
Subject: Sophos releases free Mac anti-virus for home users: ... 
In-Reply-To: <B38DEEC0-1AB8-41DF-99F5-99276B662194@gmail.com>
References: <B38DEEC0-1AB8-41DF-99F5-99276B662194@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D2F53A3-9B66-4E0C-9231-28A32EB88F2D@softcon.com>


On Nov 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I think the author was a bit out there in only poling 600 people. Of  
> corse the results will be a bit skewed. In the same breath though Is  
> this a good idea?


I'm a bit puzzled by your is this a good idea question.
Is it necessary? maybe not yet, but is it a good idea? Of course it  
is, it's always a good idea to protect your machine when you can, and  
this is just another tool in the battle against idiots that are out to  
do as much damage as they can for who knows what reason.
But, to address your first point, I suspect the percentages wouldn't  
have changed much, even if the author had polled 6 hundred thousand  
people.  Most folks realize macs are on the rise, so it only makes  
sense that virus/trojan authors will increasingly target mac users as  
a result.  My guess is, that even if the statistical numbers had been  
available, the percent of folks thinking threats were on the rise  
would have been relatively close to the 90 percent mark anyhow, so in  
this case, i doubt it would have made much of a difference.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 19:30:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:30:38 -0700
Subject: Sophos releases free Mac anti-virus for home users: ...
In-Reply-To: <1D2F53A3-9B66-4E0C-9231-28A32EB88F2D@softcon.com>
References: <B38DEEC0-1AB8-41DF-99F5-99276B662194@gmail.com>
	<1D2F53A3-9B66-4E0C-9231-28A32EB88F2D@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <56635552-BB82-4B60-B35C-0C86C208C48B@gmail.com>

I personally don't think so. I'm sort of in the minority that macs won't get enfected for about 5 to 10 years so why worry. as long as you serf with comen sense and take your computer off line when you are not onthe net then you should be fine. Now this is on my mac not my windows machine how ever.

S
On Nov 2, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> 
> On Nov 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I think the author was a bit out there in only poling 600 people. Of corse the results will be a bit skewed. In the same breath though Is this a good idea?
> 
> 
> I'm a bit puzzled by your is this a good idea question.
> Is it necessary? maybe not yet, but is it a good idea? Of course it is, it's always a good idea to protect your machine when you can, and this is just another tool in the battle against idiots that are out to do as much damage as they can for who knows what reason.
> But, to address your first point, I suspect the percentages wouldn't have changed much, even if the author had polled 6 hundred thousand people.  Most folks realize macs are on the rise, so it only makes sense that virus/trojan authors will increasingly target mac users as a result.  My guess is, that even if the statistical numbers had been available, the percent of folks thinking threats were on the rise would have been relatively close to the 90 percent mark anyhow, so in this case, i doubt it would have made much of a difference.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Nov  2 19:33:54 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue,  2 Nov 2010 15:33:54 -0400
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special
In-Reply-To: <BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101102153354.ao6j7pdcgcck0sks@webmail.iu.edu>

Actually, the Potter books aren't available on Audible. however, last I 
looked at the CD versions, they were somewhere around
$50 a book, so that's why I bought them in Braille.

Mary'

Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:

> I personally don't think it is as you can apply it to any promo
> anything. Think about audable. I can get the hary potter books for a
> lot cheaper at amazon any time probably or even ebay then I can ever
> get on itunes and audable.
>
> S



From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Nov  2 19:41:07 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue,  2 Nov 2010 15:41:07 -0400
Subject: Getting a Mac for work
Message-ID: <20101102154107.w6kixfa18w8kww4s@webmail.iu.edu>

Well, after about two years of requesting it, my boss has ordered me my 
first Mac. I wish I could tell you all the specs, but I was not 
informed. I guess maybe next week I'll e-mail you all about it if you 
want to know. But I am excited.

Mary



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 19:41:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:41:14 -0700
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special
In-Reply-To: <20101102153354.ao6j7pdcgcck0sks@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>
	<20101102153354.ao6j7pdcgcck0sks@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <562CCCD4-110B-4AAA-AE20-5FC416F4CB5F@gmail.com>

lol. I was lucky then and got my cd version for 20 bucks at amazon but ebay I got books I could listen to for about 5 dollars or less. Now as to music you can probably get a cd for about a dollar at ebay of a new artist if the user wants to put it up there and amazond offers downloads for about 99 cents I think? I only bought a full length album at there which would caust the same as itunes.

S
On Nov 2, 2010, at 12:33 PM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Actually, the Potter books aren't available on Audible. however, last I looked at the CD versions, they were somewhere around
> $50 a book, so that's why I bought them in Braille.
> 
> Mary'
> 
> Quoting Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>:
> 
>> I personally don't think it is as you can apply it to any promo
>> anything. Think about audable. I can get the hary potter books for a
>> lot cheaper at amazon any time probably or even ebay then I can ever
>> get on itunes and audable.
>> 
>> S
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 20:02:43 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:02:43 +0000
Subject: Looking For an Item
Message-ID: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody; primarily, on this occasion, those in the UK.

I'm looking for a sustain peddle for Gordon's new M Audio Key Studio 49 MIDI USB keyboard. I had a look at Dolphin Music but they don't seem to sell what I'm looking for. The emphasis there is very much on the guitar and amp side of things.

I know there are one or two on this list within the UK who use MIDI equipment. So thought perhaps they might be able to advise me as to where to look next.

I'm obviously very wary when it comes to using stores I don't know; and, please, don't anybody suggest looking on eBay; I flatly refuse to do anything with that organisation because of the horror stories I read about them. Well; to be more accurate, the horror stories I read about some of the phoney dealers on eBay.

I, like Gordon, won't even consider buying second-hand. I always ask the question when I see somebody trying to sell something, "why are you selling it?". I know there are sometimes genuine reasons but I just can't afford to take the risk.

Anyway, I'm getting totally off the point. if anybody within the UK knows of anywhere reputable where I might get one of these things I'd be grateful. I also don't know whether you need a specific model for this keyboard; it has a quarter-inch jack socket which, I assume, is a stereo input of some sort, which is marked "Sustain" So that must be where the peddle connects.

Gordon has had a happy few hours messing around with the keyboard, and he's found that he's extremely rusty on his finger technique. So he's decided that the best way is to go back to basics and learn to do basic fingering exercises and chord progressions before he starts trying to do the complex things he used to do on the electronic organ they had back when he was at school which, apparently, is the last time he seriously did anything with a keyboard.

he now has other problems to deal with as well, which don't exactly help. But he's finding he can cope reasonably well and, with more expertise in the use of Garage Band, I think he should be able to produce some reasonable-sounding stuff.

But the sustain peddle seems to be a "must-have", so that is next on the shopping list if I can find the right model for his keyboard if they're keyboard-specific.

Thank you in advance for any advice; and I sincerely apologise for the babbling in this message.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 20:17:18 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:17:18 +0000
Subject: Some iTunes special promotions aren't so special
In-Reply-To: <BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>
References: <313FDB8F-56D1-40EC-8993-6DB8FE32570D@gmail.com>
	<319E8809-A1EF-47DD-9326-A6DC0BC69502@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BCBAC0A2-458B-4601-8AFC-6B103F3EC50E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9EA1D065-A98C-4762-A9C7-A1BF854BAA33@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 2 Nov 2010, at 18:17, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? I personally don't think it is as you can apply it to any promo anything. Think about audable. I can get the hary potter books for a lot cheaper at amazon any time probably or even ebay then I can ever get on itunes and audable.

I don't think you're comparing like with like here. iTunes is, in my opinion, good for music; but for books, it's pretty naff and most of them come from Audible anyway from what I've seen.

Yes, you can buy the Potter books anywhere more or less, and most likely you'll get them cheaper than you would from either iTunes or Audible. Our copy of the HP books is CD-based, but I doubt you'd like it much because it is the UK version rather than the dreadful effort that Jim Dale produced for the poor long-suffering US readers. But that's a totally different matter.

Audible seems to be extremely restrictive in terms of what books they have. Most of it is American it seems which, although it obviously appeals to some, doesn't do anything for Gordon, and that's the only reason why I look at audiobooks to be honest.

The audiobooks I've seen seem to be very limited in choice of subject.  I.e,., maybe I'm looking in the wrong places; but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of reference material in audio format, not in the field I'm looking for anyway.

It seems that fiction and religion are the most popular topics, certainly with those sites dealing in US stuff. But even the UK's RNIB's talking book catalogue is sadly lacking in reference material in the field.

I'm babbling.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 20:29:31 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:29:31 +0000
Subject: Main Stream Versus Specialist
In-Reply-To: <B24BAE9D-C061-40A3-940F-257C6115CDD1@softcon.com>
References: <864A4197-2F93-4AD0-A569-A94FC3C0F610@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101031125416.i494ccug6ck4wsso@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EAB0C2FA-78EF-4BE5-9F29-13A82CF7268C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E4B82834-87B7-4335-A0BA-8575BFC66F0D@softcon.com>
	<F809EEA6-AE56-4430-AC36-0229383C27B9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B24BAE9D-C061-40A3-940F-257C6115CDD1@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <8C7B5DC0-5771-43B2-BC7E-2DA6C68586CB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis


On 2 Nov 2010, at 18:49, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? Actually, we do have a cordless phone where both the base and handset speak the caller-id information.


I won't quote the rest of your post; interesting though it was. Buying a new phone isn't an option for us. We just got one that's right for us for other reasons. The main one being that it has Bluetooth support.

The talking issue can be overcome to a degree, as Gordon pointed out to me earlier, buy assigning personalised ringtones and voice messages to frequent or known callers. That way, you'll know immediately who's calling without the need for more investment.

Further, this can be done on a per-handset basis, and as we have 4 handsets dotted around the house, that's an advantage. There is a certain amount of synchronisation between them; i.e., if you update the clock on one of them, the update propagates to the rest, and to the base station itself so that the answer machine registers the calls correctly.

The answer machine is quite good, it talks the number of new and old messages, but not all the menu structure, sadly.

It would have been nice if the menus would have TTS assigned to them, but they don't. I don't think Siemens is likely to update the firmware any time soon to accommodate the visually impaired.

So I'm still going to look at the RNIB's talking display units, just to see what they are like and whether they would be of any use at all to us.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 20:32:26 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:32:26 +0000
Subject: Sophos releases free Mac anti-virus for home users: ...
In-Reply-To: <56635552-BB82-4B60-B35C-0C86C208C48B@gmail.com>
References: <B38DEEC0-1AB8-41DF-99F5-99276B662194@gmail.com>
	<1D2F53A3-9B66-4E0C-9231-28A32EB88F2D@softcon.com>
	<56635552-BB82-4B60-B35C-0C86C208C48B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5405D4E-A4C6-4BB6-BC9A-2741F2448BFA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

All:

Could we please respect list policy. Mac Issues go to Mac Access please.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 20:34:12 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:34:12 +0000
Subject: Getting a Mac for work
In-Reply-To: <20101102154107.w6kixfa18w8kww4s@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <20101102154107.w6kixfa18w8kww4s@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <2CD9193D-26B5-41BF-81B4-73AFEA37BE98@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 2 Nov 2010, at 19:41, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? Well, after about two years of requesting it, my boss has ordered me my first Mac. I wish I could tell you all the specs, but I was not informed. I guess maybe next week I'll e-mail you all about it if you want to know. But I am excited.
> 
I hope you'l join Mac Access:
mac-access-request at mac-access.net

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Nov  2 23:23:33 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:23:33 +1100
Subject: Looking For an Item
In-Reply-To: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>

I gave you the address of the midi-mag mailing list, if they can't find what you want then I doubt anyone can <smile>, a whole heap of knowledge on there.


On 03/11/2010, at 7:02 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody; primarily, on this occasion, those in the UK.
> 
> I'm looking for a sustain peddle for Gordon's new M Audio Key Studio 49 MIDI USB keyboard. I had a look at Dolphin Music but they don't seem to sell what I'm looking for. The emphasis there is very much on the guitar and amp side of things.
> 
> I know there are one or two on this list within the UK who use MIDI equipment. So thought perhaps they might be able to advise me as to where to look next.
> 
> I'm obviously very wary when it comes to using stores I don't know; and, please, don't anybody suggest looking on eBay; I flatly refuse to do anything with that organisation because of the horror stories I read about them. Well; to be more accurate, the horror stories I read about some of the phoney dealers on eBay.
> 
> I, like Gordon, won't even consider buying second-hand. I always ask the question when I see somebody trying to sell something, "why are you selling it?". I know there are sometimes genuine reasons but I just can't afford to take the risk.
> 
> Anyway, I'm getting totally off the point. if anybody within the UK knows of anywhere reputable where I might get one of these things I'd be grateful. I also don't know whether you need a specific model for this keyboard; it has a quarter-inch jack socket which, I assume, is a stereo input of some sort, which is marked "Sustain" So that must be where the peddle connects.
> 
> Gordon has had a happy few hours messing around with the keyboard, and he's found that he's extremely rusty on his finger technique. So he's decided that the best way is to go back to basics and learn to do basic fingering exercises and chord progressions before he starts trying to do the complex things he used to do on the electronic organ they had back when he was at school which, apparently, is the last time he seriously did anything with a keyboard.
> 
> he now has other problems to deal with as well, which don't exactly help. But he's finding he can cope reasonably well and, with more expertise in the use of Garage Band, I think he should be able to produce some reasonable-sounding stuff.
> 
> But the sustain peddle seems to be a "must-have", so that is next on the shopping list if I can find the right model for his keyboard if they're keyboard-specific.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any advice; and I sincerely apologise for the babbling in this message.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 23:32:08 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:32:08 +0000
Subject: Looking For an Item
In-Reply-To: <D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>
References: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 2 Nov 2010, at 23:23, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> I gave you the address of the midi-mag mailing list, if they can't find what you want then I doubt anyone can <smile>, a whole heap of knowledge on there.

As I've told you before, I don't want to get involved in that sort of thing. I simply don't have the interest in public groups except our own. I'm sure I'll find somebody in the UK who can help me. Actually a friend of ours has already contacted us.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 23:34:19 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:34:19 +0000
Subject: Looking For an Item
In-Reply-To: <39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>
	<39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <57229EA6-8287-4E10-BE34-1A186F82BC7C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Oopse, forgot to change accounts again.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Nov  2 23:36:17 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:36:17 +1100
Subject: Looking For an Item
In-Reply-To: <39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>
	<39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BA8738EE-C086-4E16-916D-78886FEF4E16@internode.on.net>

Ah well, can't say I didn't try to help then <smile>, can't be to desperate for it then I suppose.


On 03/11/2010, at 10:32 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 2 Nov 2010, at 23:23, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> I gave you the address of the midi-mag mailing list, if they can't find what you want then I doubt anyone can <smile>, a whole heap of knowledge on there.
> 
> As I've told you before, I don't want to get involved in that sort of thing. I simply don't have the interest in public groups except our own. I'm sure I'll find somebody in the UK who can help me. Actually a friend of ours has already contacted us.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  2 23:49:12 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:49:12 +0000
Subject: Looking For an Item
In-Reply-To: <BA8738EE-C086-4E16-916D-78886FEF4E16@internode.on.net>
References: <9A4A46D5-3C0D-4768-BC59-9E94F8D2A564@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D82EFF0D-431D-4519-A0A8-DE3926FAC937@internode.on.net>
	<39130F44-7FAA-48B9-84BB-B095C5464827@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BA8738EE-C086-4E16-916D-78886FEF4E16@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <F102F59A-7700-4BC6-B176-788CBFCE0FA2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 2 Nov 2010, at 23:36, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Ah well, can't say I didn't try to help then <smile>, can't be to desperate for it then I suppose.
> 
I don't remember anybody saying that. I appreciate it. But I just don't have the time or the interest. But thanks anyway.

Lyne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov  3 00:27:20 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:27:20 +1100
Subject: Iriver with Rockbox
Message-ID: <C0665802-A7FE-41B1-99E9-2471390970B4@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Has anyone set one of these up? I did it 5 years ago but I've forgotten all I learnt then <smile>, discarded my Iriver for something else and now I have another one so could people with the "know how" please email me? Thanks in Advance.

By the way I have an Iriver H320.



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov  3 01:28:41 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:28:41 +1100
Subject: Wi-Fi Questions
Message-ID: <7A71514F-9295-4440-894E-86E550624234@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I've been wondering about this for some time so thought perhaps people could enlighten me.

I run an Apple Time Capsule here for my Wireless Network hub and everything that is wirelessly connected to it is Wireless N compatible except the Iphone 3GS which is Wireless G compatible so here's the question, will the Iphone slow network traffic speed down because of its Wireless G configuration and if so is there anything I can do about this?

I'm only asking as I'm told that if I plug a 100MBPS device into a 1GBPS network the whole network slows to 100MPBS.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 01:37:57 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:37:57 -0700
Subject: NASA Auctions off Federally Funded Patents
Message-ID: <AB029976-3DB7-4E39-82D5-FFBA5EA4CA08@gmail.com>

All of this sounds like a lot of legal language to me. Read more if you can. the website is not that well laid out. Link:   http://bit.ly/bwl00B

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 14:12:31 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:12:31 +0000
Subject: Wi-Fi Questions
In-Reply-To: <7A71514F-9295-4440-894E-86E550624234@internode.on.net>
References: <7A71514F-9295-4440-894E-86E550624234@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <5F581F83-11AE-4DEC-A889-F36F19F12444@tft-bbs.co.uk>

No. The only speed difference will be between the iPhone and router.

On 3 Nov 2010, at 01:28, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> I've been wondering about this for some time so thought perhaps people could enlighten me.
> 
> I run an Apple Time Capsule here for my Wireless Network hub and everything that is wirelessly connected to it is Wireless N compatible except the Iphone 3GS which is Wireless G compatible so here's the question, will the Iphone slow network traffic speed down because of its Wireless G configuration and if so is there anything I can do about this?
> 
> I'm only asking as I'm told that if I plug a 100MBPS device into a 1GBPS network the whole network slows to 100MPBS.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 18:54:42 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:54:42 -0700
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
Message-ID: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>

Hello. I did early voting about 3 weeks ago and the place I went to had no accessible voting method for me at all. I hear that there has to be at least 1 in each precinct or how ever nevada is set up. What should I have done in this situation? I had someone help me, my dad, but that should not have been necessary. It's too late now but what should I do in 2 years? We only have about 300 blind people in my city alone which is not really all that much especially since most of them are way older then I am.

Thanks.

Take care.

Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 19:03:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:03:27 -0700
Subject: Wi-Fi Questions
In-Reply-To: <5F581F83-11AE-4DEC-A889-F36F19F12444@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <7A71514F-9295-4440-894E-86E550624234@internode.on.net>
	<5F581F83-11AE-4DEC-A889-F36F19F12444@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8AD36271-51FB-46D0-ACD7-93AF80594525@gmail.com>

Yeah I always get confused on that too. I read a smart computering article but it still went over my head. Some tech guroo I am. lol!

Take care.

S
On Nov 3, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> No. The only speed difference will be between the iPhone and router.
> 
> On 3 Nov 2010, at 01:28, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I've been wondering about this for some time so thought perhaps people could enlighten me.
>> 
>> I run an Apple Time Capsule here for my Wireless Network hub and everything that is wirelessly connected to it is Wireless N compatible except the Iphone 3GS which is Wireless G compatible so here's the question, will the Iphone slow network traffic speed down because of its Wireless G configuration and if so is there anything I can do about this?
>> 
>> I'm only asking as I'm told that if I plug a 100MBPS device into a 1GBPS network the whole network slows to 100MPBS.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov  3 19:07:46 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:07:46 -0500
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <982221E8-FF30-4ADF-B5D7-0AF81C4F0502@softcon.com>

Well, the law states that there is supposed to be an accessible voting  
option, not that there needs to be an accessible machine.
usually what this means, is that if you ask before going in to vote,  
oneof the poll workers will come into the booth with you, and make  
your selections for you.  Now, how this ensures the selections you  
actually want get chosen, I don't know, and how does this ensure your  
vote gets recorded the way you wanted is another mystery, but it does  
follow the letter of the law, so as long as a poll worker is available  
to assist, then the accessible machine itself isn't necessary.
I personally think this is a cop out, and allows folks to deliberately  
not update their machines, but that's just me.
On the other hand, voting normally usually takes only a couple  
minutes.  Using one of the talking accessible machines takes over 15  
minutes, so I guess it's a matter of what you're willing to put up with.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 20:18:31 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:18:31 -0700
Subject: Facebook updating its iPhone, Android apps 
Message-ID: <0123B237-3815-44CF-ACFE-990B6ECD7C67@gmail.com>

There is no mention of accessibility in this update just more fancy stuff I as a facebook user probably will not use. Read more: 	http://bit.ly/aCUa9X

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 20:58:17 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:58:17 +0000
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855C315F-1E4A-46D6-8F13-F243F8A724A8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 3 Nov 2010, at 18:54, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Hello. I did early voting about 3 weeks ago and the place I went to had no accessible voting method for me at all. I hear that there has to be at least 1 in each precinct or how ever nevada is set up. What should I have done in this situation? I had someone help me, my dad, but that should not have been necessary. It's too late now but what should I do in 2 years? We only have about 300 blind people in my city alone which is not really all that much especially since most of them are way older then I am.
> 
In the UK there's no such thing as electronic voting machines. The potential for fraud seems to be the problem here.

To a point I understand that. But as somebody not disabled, I think it's outrageous that no provisions are made for blind people in this respect.

After all, voting booths have access for those in wheel chairs. So why are the blind precluded? It is a breach of dignity to have to ask somebody to assist you to fulfil your basic rights.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 21:00:44 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:00:44 +0000
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <982221E8-FF30-4ADF-B5D7-0AF81C4F0502@softcon.com>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
	<982221E8-FF30-4ADF-B5D7-0AF81C4F0502@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <553C5713-D182-45F8-8C54-8B94A65AC995@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

On 3 Nov 2010, at 19:07, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? Well, the law states that there is supposed to be an accessible voting option, not that there needs to be an accessible machine.
> usually what this means, is that if you ask before going in to vote, oneof the poll workers will come into the booth with you, and make your selections for you.  Now, how this ensures the selections you actually want get chosen, I don't know, and how does this ensure your vote gets recorded the way you wanted is another mystery, but it does follow the letter of the law, so as long as a poll worker is available to assist, then the accessible machine itself isn't necessary.

You are, of course, referring to the US law.  There is no such regulation over here and I think it's disgusting to be quite honest.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 21:21:18 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:21:18 -0700
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <982221E8-FF30-4ADF-B5D7-0AF81C4F0502@softcon.com>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
	<982221E8-FF30-4ADF-B5D7-0AF81C4F0502@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <AF6C3100-C3BC-4E86-A205-C647EBD2F2D2@gmail.com>

Yeah in this case my dad heped me do it. the pole workers almost dod not want to give me the time of day. yeah I was rather pissed!

Ah well. yeah looks like I'll have to do the the same thing where ever I am 2 years from now. lol!
On Nov 3, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Well, the law states that there is supposed to be an accessible voting option, not that there needs to be an accessible machine.
> usually what this means, is that if you ask before going in to vote, oneof the poll workers will come into the booth with you, and make your selections for you.  Now, how this ensures the selections you actually want get chosen, I don't know, and how does this ensure your vote gets recorded the way you wanted is another mystery, but it does follow the letter of the law, so as long as a poll worker is available to assist, then the accessible machine itself isn't necessary.
> I personally think this is a cop out, and allows folks to deliberately not update their machines, but that's just me.
> On the other hand, voting normally usually takes only a couple minutes.  Using one of the talking accessible machines takes over 15 minutes, so I guess it's a matter of what you're willing to put up with.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 21:23:12 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:23:12 -0700
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <855C315F-1E4A-46D6-8F13-F243F8A724A8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
	<855C315F-1E4A-46D6-8F13-F243F8A724A8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <185E2F89-D875-4B01-AA74-41E0A86F0AD7@gmail.com>

OH i agree hole hardly but the usa here almost does not care about our blind. I did a speech on this but will not give out the recording as I think it sucked! lol!

but I am still quite upset about this and I think there should be a way to do this online or over the phone or something. anything that might help!

s
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 3 Nov 2010, at 18:54, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? Hello. I did early voting about 3 weeks ago and the place I went to had no accessible voting method for me at all. I hear that there has to be at least 1 in each precinct or how ever nevada is set up. What should I have done in this situation? I had someone help me, my dad, but that should not have been necessary. It's too late now but what should I do in 2 years? We only have about 300 blind people in my city alone which is not really all that much especially since most of them are way older then I am.
>> 
> In the UK there's no such thing as electronic voting machines. The potential for fraud seems to be the problem here.
> 
> To a point I understand that. But as somebody not disabled, I think it's outrageous that no provisions are made for blind people in this respect.
> 
> After all, voting booths have access for those in wheel chairs. So why are the blind precluded? It is a breach of dignity to have to ask somebody to assist you to fulfil your basic rights.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov  3 21:34:20 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 08:34:20 +1100
Subject: Article: Microchip implant helps blind to see
Message-ID: <30D6B380-4855-4132-A7D3-8551647871BD@internode.on.net>

German scientists have invented an implant that has allowed blind people to see within days of it being inserted. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/03/3056537.htm

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov  3 21:52:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 08:52:11 +1100
Subject: article: CSIRO uses old TV channels for wireless internet
Message-ID: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>

The CSIRO has invented new wireless internet technology that will give people in remote areas faster broadband by using old analog TV channels. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/03/3056497.htm

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 22:57:52 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:57:52 +0000
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <185E2F89-D875-4B01-AA74-41E0A86F0AD7@gmail.com>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
	<855C315F-1E4A-46D6-8F13-F243F8A724A8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<185E2F89-D875-4B01-AA74-41E0A86F0AD7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9FE7E89-4896-42F5-BB06-E66AE1A4DDA6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:23, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? OH i agree hole hardly but the usa here almost does not care about our blind. I did a speech on this but will not give out the recording as I think it sucked! lol!
> 
I think that's pushing it a little bit far, to be honest. I don't live in the US, but it seems to me there are overall pretty good laws which give you protection.

The same is true, to a point, over here. It's really issues such as banking, voting and other instances where vision is required to interact with the mechanics of the circumstance, such as a voting booth.

In the case of cash machines, (often referred to here in the UK as t the "hole in the wall", there are some potential security issues. For instance, a talking cash machine would definitely be a danger; even blindness organisations have acknowledged that fact i believe. The cost of implementing Braille in such things would, I think, be incredibly high, for such a small return. That, I think, is why the banks are unwilling to invest in the technology.

The number of blind individuals capable of reading Braille in this country is apparently dwindling because the vast majority of blind people now are elderly and, as such, either can't or won't learn to read Braille.

So I really can't see a lot of option there. But for voting, well it is a basic right and I would be the first to complain if it were deprived to me; so I understand why those blind people unable to participate are unhappy.

If there were alternative arrangements in place, and then blind people were complaining, well that would be a different story. Over here we do have proxy voting so you can vote by post. But hey, guess what; you run into the self same issues. The voting cards are printed, not Brailled and naturally, audio format is out of the question.

Telephone voting would be subject to the same possible fraud issues as online or electronic voting is perceived to be. So I doubt they will be implemented any time soon.

But I was always given to understand that in the US you just pressed a button in the voting booth marked A, B, or C. is that not correct?

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 23:03:30 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:03:30 +0000
Subject: Article: Microchip implant helps blind to see
In-Reply-To: <30D6B380-4855-4132-A7D3-8551647871BD@internode.on.net>
References: <30D6B380-4855-4132-A7D3-8551647871BD@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <BF4CD013-3C2B-479E-AC68-0E46631D6526@tft-bbs.co.uk>

On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:34, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> German scientists have invented an implant that has allowed blind people to see within days of it being inserted


I think this is very badly subject, to be honest. It should read "Some Blind", not just "Blind" Clearly, it is extremely restrictive technology and it only applies to a specific group of people with a specific condition.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov  3 23:04:59 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:04:59 +0000
Subject: article: CSIRO uses old TV channels for wireless internet
In-Reply-To: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>
References: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <99DDBCBE-DFC7-46EE-9BCF-AB92EA709A87@tft-bbs.co.uk>


On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? The CSIRO has invented new wireless internet technology that will give people in remote areas faster broadband by using old analog TV channels. 

Specific to Australia I guess.

Lynne


From support at tft-bbs.com  Thu Nov  4 00:25:32 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:25:32 +0000
Subject: New Member Welcome
Message-ID: <96243D42-2F5A-419B-AF45-0BC230D9C2B3@tft-bbs.com>

Hello everybody

It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Courtney Curran
to our number.

Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them.

We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Nov  4 00:39:57 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:39:57 +1100
Subject: Article: Microchip implant helps blind to see
In-Reply-To: <BF4CD013-3C2B-479E-AC68-0E46631D6526@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <30D6B380-4855-4132-A7D3-8551647871BD@internode.on.net>
	<BF4CD013-3C2B-479E-AC68-0E46631D6526@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E38E771A-3514-47ED-A650-A287D6CC5195@internode.on.net>

Yep I agree with that however I didn't write the article nor the subject line <smile>.


On 04/11/2010, at 10:03 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:34, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> German scientists have invented an implant that has allowed blind people to see within days of it being inserted
> 
> 
> I think this is very badly subject, to be honest. It should read "Some Blind", not just "Blind" Clearly, it is extremely restrictive technology and it only applies to a specific group of people with a specific condition.
> 
> Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Nov  4 00:41:02 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:41:02 +1100
Subject: article: CSIRO uses old TV channels for wireless internet
In-Reply-To: <99DDBCBE-DFC7-46EE-9BCF-AB92EA709A87@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>
	<99DDBCBE-DFC7-46EE-9BCF-AB92EA709A87@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3DBA5E3A-2538-438B-B334-C71CCD18D233@internode.on.net>

Yep pretty much but it begs the question, what do other countries intend to do with the old analogue spectrum? They could use it for similar things.


On 04/11/2010, at 10:04 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> 
> On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? The CSIRO has invented new wireless internet technology that will give people in remote areas faster broadband by using old analog TV channels. 
> 
> Specific to Australia I guess.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 00:42:57 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:42:57 -0700
Subject: accessibil voting machines?
In-Reply-To: <D9FE7E89-4896-42F5-BB06-E66AE1A4DDA6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D274D705-B428-4AA5-AF28-2645125D194E@gmail.com>
	<855C315F-1E4A-46D6-8F13-F243F8A724A8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<185E2F89-D875-4B01-AA74-41E0A86F0AD7@gmail.com>
	<D9FE7E89-4896-42F5-BB06-E66AE1A4DDA6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C21A8022-E542-4E6D-B8A8-FA7E97C5C5C2@gmail.com>

No now a days you touch the name you want. No buttons. all touch screen. No punch cards anymore either.  My dad had to fill out an affidavit to help me vote and the booth was way out there in the open so people could see what we were doing and the tent was very hot. 

I can see the risks of online voting or postal voting but as for audio why not have a synth read it instead of a human? I do this all the time as synths cannot bias. and where I live they try and find loopholes in the laws so it really does not make a difference.

I've seen and used accessible banking machines and they were 100 percent secure. the screen went black as soon as you plugged in your earbuds and no one could see what you were doing at all. and i I wish more banks here where I live would choose this option that way both sighted and blind could use the machine. If the banks could do that why not the voting machines? If they don't already?

Take care.

S
On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:23, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? OH i agree hole hardly but the usa here almost does not care about our blind. I did a speech on this but will not give out the recording as I think it sucked! lol!
>> 
> I think that's pushing it a little bit far, to be honest. I don't live in the US, but it seems to me there are overall pretty good laws which give you protection.
> 
> The same is true, to a point, over here. It's really issues such as banking, voting and other instances where vision is required to interact with the mechanics of the circumstance, such as a voting booth.
> 
> In the case of cash machines, (often referred to here in the UK as t the "hole in the wall", there are some potential security issues. For instance, a talking cash machine would definitely be a danger; even blindness organisations have acknowledged that fact i believe. The cost of implementing Braille in such things would, I think, be incredibly high, for such a small return. That, I think, is why the banks are unwilling to invest in the technology.
> 
> The number of blind individuals capable of reading Braille in this country is apparently dwindling because the vast majority of blind people now are elderly and, as such, either can't or won't learn to read Braille.
> 
> So I really can't see a lot of option there. But for voting, well it is a basic right and I would be the first to complain if it were deprived to me; so I understand why those blind people unable to participate are unhappy.
> 
> If there were alternative arrangements in place, and then blind people were complaining, well that would be a different story. Over here we do have proxy voting so you can vote by post. But hey, guess what; you run into the self same issues. The voting cards are printed, not Brailled and naturally, audio format is out of the question.
> 
> Telephone voting would be subject to the same possible fraud issues as online or electronic voting is perceived to be. So I doubt they will be implemented any time soon.
> 
> But I was always given to understand that in the US you just pressed a button in the voting booth marked A, B, or C. is that not correct?
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 00:46:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:46:38 -0700
Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright Is Destroying Historic Audio
Message-ID: <85A06D3A-7490-4109-82DE-CC0C35D30A6F@gmail.com>

Ouch! That's all I'll say on that subject. read more:  Can we preserve our audio?  http://bit.ly/bUhUQA

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 00:47:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:47:38 -0700
Subject: Anonymous DDoS Takes Down The United States Copyright Office
Message-ID: <882E0E0D-8D0E-463C-B831-C351012F220F@gmail.com>

Again? did a DOS already not happen to the IRAA or is my memmory fuzzy again? read more:   http://bit.ly/bnVTat

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Nov  4 05:47:12 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:47:12 -0500
Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright Is Destroying Historic Audio
In-Reply-To: <85A06D3A-7490-4109-82DE-CC0C35D30A6F@gmail.com>
References: <85A06D3A-7490-4109-82DE-CC0C35D30A6F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BB57BD8-0051-4418-B99C-BB2387D4FD9A@softcon.com>

Oh yes, if you want to read some interesting articles about copyright,  
you really need to go to http://www.webscriptions.net, get yourself an  
account, get your doctor to fill out a statement explaing what your  
print impairment is, and send it off to baen.  They will then grant  
you access to their entire collection of electronic books for free (I  
think this is largely due to my complaining about the lack of  
accessible materials a few years ago, even though I'd already  
purchased everything these folks produced to that point) and then go  
into the baen's universe page, and read the articles Erich Flint has  
written about copyright.  He goes into great detail on how copyright  
issues are basically ruining the capibilities of people and  
organizations to keep archives of old works.
Alternatively, you can purchase volumes of baens-universe for  
something like 6 bucks a piece, or 30 bucks a year subscription,  
though I think there's discounts for  students, visually impaired  
folks who want to pay for subscriptions anyway, and the like.  These  
guys work hard to make sure we have access to everything they produce,  
and that's fantastic in my book.
The articles Erich Flint have written are in the column titled salvos  
against big brother, and in one of these articles, he goes into great  
detail how pirated copies of his books have actually earned him  
additional sales, not limited them, so he claims the whole pirate  
claim of millions of dollars of loss is just a farce, mostly by the  
riaa and others to drive up prices, since the authors rarely (if ever)  
see a peny from those higher prices.
It makes for some very interesting reading.
The direct site for baens universe is
http://www.baens-universe.com (if I'm not mistaken)
but you can get back issues from
http://www.webscriptions.net
(which is the place you can get access for free if you read the post  
about it on the page, and contact the proper folks on the site)



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 06:09:11 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:09:11 -0700
Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright Is Destroying Historic Audio
In-Reply-To: <1BB57BD8-0051-4418-B99C-BB2387D4FD9A@softcon.com>
References: <85A06D3A-7490-4109-82DE-CC0C35D30A6F@gmail.com>
	<1BB57BD8-0051-4418-B99C-BB2387D4FD9A@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <9460FA7F-4FB1-499B-871E-A3B8A78B082B@gmail.com>

Interesting. Yeah I have downloaded some songs and then bought a whole box set of that person's work because I liked there stuff a lot! and I've vouched for this in other places but people think I'm nuts! lol! Ok maybe I am but what ever. Hehaha!
On Nov 3, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Oh yes, if you want to read some interesting articles about copyright, you really need to go to http://www.webscriptions.net, get yourself an account, get your doctor to fill out a statement explaing what your print impairment is, and send it off to baen.  They will then grant you access to their entire collection of electronic books for free (I think this is largely due to my complaining about the lack of accessible materials a few years ago, even though I'd already purchased everything these folks produced to that point) and then go into the baen's universe page, and read the articles Erich Flint has written about copyright.  He goes into great detail on how copyright issues are basically ruining the capibilities of people and organizations to keep archives of old works.
> Alternatively, you can purchase volumes of baens-universe for something like 6 bucks a piece, or 30 bucks a year subscription, though I think there's discounts for  students, visually impaired folks who want to pay for subscriptions anyway, and the like.  These guys work hard to make sure we have access to everything they produce, and that's fantastic in my book.
> The articles Erich Flint have written are in the column titled salvos against big brother, and in one of these articles, he goes into great detail how pirated copies of his books have actually earned him additional sales, not limited them, so he claims the whole pirate claim of millions of dollars of loss is just a farce, mostly by the riaa and others to drive up prices, since the authors rarely (if ever) see a peny from those higher prices.
> It makes for some very interesting reading.
> The direct site for baens universe is
> http://www.baens-universe.com (if I'm not mistaken)
> but you can get back issues from
> http://www.webscriptions.net
> (which is the place you can get access for free if you read the post about it on the page, and contact the proper folks on the site)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Nov  4 08:47:02 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 08:47:02 +0000
Subject: article: CSIRO uses old TV channels for wireless internet
In-Reply-To: <3DBA5E3A-2538-438B-B334-C71CCD18D233@internode.on.net>
References: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>
	<99DDBCBE-DFC7-46EE-9BCF-AB92EA709A87@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3DBA5E3A-2538-438B-B334-C71CCD18D233@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <13B95798-6A27-464C-A6DC-4D3AEB873E14@blueyonder.co.uk>

We are adding HD channels instead.
On 4 Nov 2010, at 00:41, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Yep pretty much but it begs the question, what do other countries intend to do with the old analogue spectrum? They could use it for similar things.
> 
> 
> On 04/11/2010, at 10:04 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 3 Nov 2010, at 21:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>>> ? The CSIRO has invented new wireless internet technology that will give people in remote areas faster broadband by using old analog TV channels. 
>> 
>> Specific to Australia I guess.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Nov  4 09:47:23 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:47:23 +0000
Subject: article: CSIRO uses old TV channels for wireless internet
In-Reply-To: <3DBA5E3A-2538-438B-B334-C71CCD18D233@internode.on.net>
References: <2241BDAC-3FD0-4D7D-8BA3-179870B43513@internode.on.net>
	<99DDBCBE-DFC7-46EE-9BCF-AB92EA709A87@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3DBA5E3A-2538-438B-B334-C71CCD18D233@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <E0AFF819-C779-49F6-A406-20F202AAE0D0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I'd have thought the answer to this is pretty obvious to be honest.  They'll do just the same as any other organisation would do with a resource they no longer needs, sell it off!

The government has the right, certainly over here where the system is different to yours, to sell off the part of the frequency spectrum now used by TV analogue transmissions.  We use just upwards of 512 MHZ for that and undoubtedly when the switch-over is complete in 2012 the government will sell it off to commercial operations.  In fact, in your own part of the world I understand that has already started with Australian amateur radio operators being deprived of the right to use the 430/440 MHZ band which, I was given to understand, was "temporarily" taken from them in NSW at the time of the Olympics and never returned.

Of course that's only hearsay so that could be wrong. And I don't want to get into a debate on the subject to be honest.  It was just what I heard on the grape vine.


On 4 Nov 2010, at 00:41, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Yep pretty much but it begs the question, what do other countries intend to do with the old analogue spectrum? They could use it for similar things.
> 


From robbiemp at bigpond.net.au  Thu Nov  4 01:03:31 2010
From: robbiemp at bigpond.net.au (Robbie Peterson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 12:03:31 +1100
Subject: File sharing tool, Sendspace issue.
Message-ID: <A4120F1124C24181A172C278A317516A@robert37acd30c>

Hi list members.

I firstly will apologize if this issue I am having is considered off topic but I thought that some members may have encountered a similar problem.

In the last couple of days, I have had a curious problem with the file sharing tool, Sendspace.

I have been able to upload files to Sendspace, but have not been able to download any files at all.

This includes files created by others as well as those created by myself.

If I click on the Sendspace file link within an email, for instance, absolutely nothing happens.

If I copy that link and try to run it separately, I get the following error message, Application not found.

Now, the only thing that has changed in the last several days, has been an upgrade to my A.V.G. anti virus software.

Looking through the release notes that accompany the new version has proved fruitless.

I have sent off a help request to their support team, but failing any response from them, if anyone has encountered a similar problem or have any ideas with regard to this issue, I would certainly appreciate your guidance.

Thanks,

Robert M. Peterson.

I.T. Project Director
 and Consulting Analyst.

  This communication is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review,
Dissemination, retransmission, reliance on, or other use of this communication by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.
If you received this in error, please inform the sender immediately by return email and delete the material including
All copies from any computer.
It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses or other defects. This communication and any attachment may have been modified
Or otherwise interfered with in the course of transmission. Attachments and links to other web sites are supplied on the condition that you assume all
Liability for any loss, damage or other consequences, which may arise from opening or using the attachments or links.





From mstores at indiana.edu  Thu Nov  4 13:54:43 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Thu,  4 Nov 2010 09:54:43 -0400
Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright Is Destroying Historic Audio
In-Reply-To: <1BB57BD8-0051-4418-B99C-BB2387D4FD9A@softcon.com>
References: <85A06D3A-7490-4109-82DE-CC0C35D30A6F@gmail.com>
	<1BB57BD8-0051-4418-B99C-BB2387D4FD9A@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <20101104095443.ejegow50pjc44g4w@webmail.iu.edu>

Yeah, I was just reading Mr. Flint's soap box about copyright and all 
that yersterday. Brandon Sanderson pretty much takes the same 
viewpoint. And I do agree with it. I have purchased several books 
because I've gotten a sneak-peak ebook of it.There are a lot of good 
author's on the Baean free library page.

Mary

Quoting Travis Siegel <tsiegel at softcon.com>:

> Oh yes, if you want to read some interesting articles about
> copyright,  you really need to go to http://www.webscriptions.net,
> get yourself an  account, get your doctor to fill out a statement
> explaing what your  print impairment is, and send it off to baen.
> They will then grant  you access to their entire collection of
> electronic books for free (I  think this is largely due to my
> complaining about the lack of  accessible materials a few years ago,
> even though I'd already  purchased everything these folks produced to
> that point) and then go  into the baen's universe page, and read the
> articles Erich Flint has  written about copyright.  He goes into
> great detail on how copyright  issues are basically ruining the
> capibilities of people and  organizations to keep archives of old
> works.
> Alternatively, you can purchase volumes of baens-universe for
> something like 6 bucks a piece, or 30 bucks a year subscription,
> though I think there's discounts for  students, visually impaired
> folks who want to pay for subscriptions anyway, and the like.  These
> guys work hard to make sure we have access to everything they
> produce,  and that's fantastic in my book.
> The articles Erich Flint have written are in the column titled salvos
>  against big brother, and in one of these articles, he goes into
> great  detail how pirated copies of his books have actually earned
> him  additional sales, not limited them, so he claims the whole
> pirate  claim of millions of dollars of loss is just a farce, mostly
> by the  riaa and others to drive up prices, since the authors rarely
> (if ever)  see a peny from those higher prices.
> It makes for some very interesting reading.
> The direct site for baens universe is
> http://www.baens-universe.com (if I'm not mistaken)
> but you can get back issues from
> http://www.webscriptions.net
> (which is the place you can get access for free if you read the post
> about it on the page, and contact the proper folks on the site)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Nov  4 17:21:54 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 04:21:54 +1100
Subject: File sharing tool, Sendspace issue.
In-Reply-To: <A4120F1124C24181A172C278A317516A@robert37acd30c>
References: <A4120F1124C24181A172C278A317516A@robert37acd30c>
Message-ID: <1B46F086-CBBD-4280-A0C0-B9C65123A143@internode.on.net>

I haven't used Sendspace for a little while, have you written to the developers about this to see what the response is?


On 04/11/2010, at 12:03 PM, Robbie Peterson wrote:

> Hi list members.
> 
> I firstly will apologize if this issue I am having is considered off topic but I thought that some members may have encountered a similar problem.
> 
> In the last couple of days, I have had a curious problem with the file sharing tool, Sendspace.
> 
> I have been able to upload files to Sendspace, but have not been able to download any files at all.
> 
> This includes files created by others as well as those created by myself.
> 
> If I click on the Sendspace file link within an email, for instance, absolutely nothing happens.
> 
> If I copy that link and try to run it separately, I get the following error message, Application not found.
> 
> Now, the only thing that has changed in the last several days, has been an upgrade to my A.V.G. anti virus software.
> 
> Looking through the release notes that accompany the new version has proved fruitless.
> 
> I have sent off a help request to their support team, but failing any response from them, if anyone has encountered a similar problem or have any ideas with regard to this issue, I would certainly appreciate your guidance.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Robert M. Peterson.
> 
> I.T. Project Director
> and Consulting Analyst.
> 
>  This communication is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review,
> Dissemination, retransmission, reliance on, or other use of this communication by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.
> If you received this in error, please inform the sender immediately by return email and delete the material including
> All copies from any computer.
> It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses or other defects. This communication and any attachment may have been modified
> Or otherwise interfered with in the course of transmission. Attachments and links to other web sites are supplied on the condition that you assume all
> Liability for any loss, damage or other consequences, which may arise from opening or using the attachments or links.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 20:20:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 13:20:34 -0700
Subject: File sharing tool, Sendspace issue.
In-Reply-To: <A4120F1124C24181A172C278A317516A@robert37acd30c>
References: <A4120F1124C24181A172C278A317516A@robert37acd30c>
Message-ID: <92B9C15C-19E7-4D4F-9007-56A8F0993508@gmail.com>

Try opening the link in internet exploder and seeing what happens. or try using the wizard. Try this link.


http://www.sendspace.com/file/lk3ckk as a test.

Take care.
On Nov 3, 2010, at 6:03 PM, Robbie Peterson wrote:

> Hi list members.
> 
> I firstly will apologize if this issue I am having is considered off topic but I thought that some members may have encountered a similar problem.
> 
> In the last couple of days, I have had a curious problem with the file sharing tool, Sendspace.
> 
> I have been able to upload files to Sendspace, but have not been able to download any files at all.
> 
> This includes files created by others as well as those created by myself.
> 
> If I click on the Sendspace file link within an email, for instance, absolutely nothing happens.
> 
> If I copy that link and try to run it separately, I get the following error message, Application not found.
> 
> Now, the only thing that has changed in the last several days, has been an upgrade to my A.V.G. anti virus software.
> 
> Looking through the release notes that accompany the new version has proved fruitless.
> 
> I have sent off a help request to their support team, but failing any response from them, if anyone has encountered a similar problem or have any ideas with regard to this issue, I would certainly appreciate your guidance.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Robert M. Peterson.
> 
> I.T. Project Director
> and Consulting Analyst.
> 
>  This communication is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review,
> Dissemination, retransmission, reliance on, or other use of this communication by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.
> If you received this in error, please inform the sender immediately by return email and delete the material including
> All copies from any computer.
> It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses or other defects. This communication and any attachment may have been modified
> Or otherwise interfered with in the course of transmission. Attachments and links to other web sites are supplied on the condition that you assume all
> Liability for any loss, damage or other consequences, which may arise from opening or using the attachments or links.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 00:58:49 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:58:49 -0700
Subject: Windows Phone 7 has an app kill switch too 
Message-ID: <1D8C1717-A9C5-49E7-B45F-6FCE76130536@gmail.com>

Is big brother watching, Is it a good idea to disable our apps with the push of a button, or in this case a line of code that could be triggered? read more: http://bit.ly/9Pf80f

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 01:02:37 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:02:37 -0700
Subject: Android 'MoodTracker' catches Pentagon's attention
Message-ID: <8D3D16AF-1896-4487-8BC0-DAE8E3C8A8DB@gmail.com>

My safari crashed in the middle of reading this so could not provide a decent sumary all. Sorry. Read more though:   http://bit.ly/aEaD7U

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 01:47:28 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 01:47:28 +0000
Subject: Boot Camp Installation Of OS
In-Reply-To: <10D2CDD6-42AC-40AD-8E06-F45C0A6C1EC4@gmail.com>
References: <76B1D60E-3177-48BA-A390-9657756845F9@mac-access.net>
	<09608EB3-6DEE-4B14-9019-AD4DCAAC1A03@charter.net>
	<2DED5775-3599-4998-8FD1-81B2E411DCCE@mac-access.net>
	<0ACC2102-935A-49E3-9B2B-F030B6F0134F@charter.net>
	<10D2CDD6-42AC-40AD-8E06-F45C0A6C1EC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E04689C5-9452-4760-A75D-6CA7045FDA96@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

I have moved this off Mac Access as it's getting way off topic.

I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. IO am not a technically minded person and Gordon is asleep.

There were a few typos as well which just added to my confusion. :)

Lynne

On 5 Nov 2010, at 01:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> If you want ot slipstream try nlite. Tha'ts all I'll say on that subject and good luck with installing in to bootcamp.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 03:00:28 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 03:00:28 +0000
Subject: Windows Phone 7 has an app kill switch too 
In-Reply-To: <1D8C1717-A9C5-49E7-B45F-6FCE76130536@gmail.com>
References: <1D8C1717-A9C5-49E7-B45F-6FCE76130536@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F254E540-C838-423D-80D7-632637338480@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah & all

On 5 Nov 2010, at 00:58, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Is big brother watching, Is it a good idea to disable our apps with the push of a button, or in this case a line of code that could be triggered? 

I get the impression that this only affects Microsoft's mobile devices so it won't impact at all on anybody with a desktop or laptop running Windows 7.

But personally speaking I object to such things as people watching what we do with our computers or mobile devices. Unless, of course, there is good reason to do so.

But I think this is just another one of the hundreds of things that are floating around the Internet and which, although probably true, could be used to scare the average user away.

I'm no technical bofin by any manner or means. But I hardly think this is a problem worth anybody's worrying over.

And I would just also add that I think Microsoft has a perfect right to protect its marketplace, just as Apple has. Apple, for instance, as I remember bans those torrent applications although I don't pretend to understand what they do so I don't know why.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 03:28:44 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:28:44 -0700
Subject: what the crap? Sorry about language but I don't even know what this
	is.
Message-ID: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>

Ok this sounds just scary, and fake. got it from someone off of twitter and read most of it. 
I don't see the purpose of this. and some of this stuff goes way over my head anyways. Read more: http://www.infobyte.com.ar/down/isr-evilgrade-Readme.txt


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 03:47:59 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:47:59 -0700
Subject: Windows Phone 7 has an app kill switch too
In-Reply-To: <F254E540-C838-423D-80D7-632637338480@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <1D8C1717-A9C5-49E7-B45F-6FCE76130536@gmail.com>
	<F254E540-C838-423D-80D7-632637338480@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9F6CC9B3-A896-4FAE-84D9-BEF65E01F9A0@gmail.com>

Actually the early versions of vista and 7 had a kill switch but MS took it out according to the article because piracy went down.

S
On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:00 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah & all
> 
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 00:58, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Is big brother watching, Is it a good idea to disable our apps with the push of a button, or in this case a line of code that could be triggered? 
> 
> I get the impression that this only affects Microsoft's mobile devices so it won't impact at all on anybody with a desktop or laptop running Windows 7.
> 
> But personally speaking I object to such things as people watching what we do with our computers or mobile devices. Unless, of course, there is good reason to do so.
> 
> But I think this is just another one of the hundreds of things that are floating around the Internet and which, although probably true, could be used to scare the average user away.
> 
> I'm no technical bofin by any manner or means. But I hardly think this is a problem worth anybody's worrying over.
> 
> And I would just also add that I think Microsoft has a perfect right to protect its marketplace, just as Apple has. Apple, for instance, as I remember bans those torrent applications although I don't pretend to understand what they do so I don't know why.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 03:48:51 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:48:51 -0700
Subject: Boot Camp Installation Of OS
In-Reply-To: <E04689C5-9452-4760-A75D-6CA7045FDA96@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <76B1D60E-3177-48BA-A390-9657756845F9@mac-access.net>
	<09608EB3-6DEE-4B14-9019-AD4DCAAC1A03@charter.net>
	<2DED5775-3599-4998-8FD1-81B2E411DCCE@mac-access.net>
	<0ACC2102-935A-49E3-9B2B-F030B6F0134F@charter.net>
	<10D2CDD6-42AC-40AD-8E06-F45C0A6C1EC4@gmail.com>
	<E04689C5-9452-4760-A75D-6CA7045FDA96@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <40B14019-70C1-4AB0-AA7F-9871B6315F31@gmail.com>

NLite is a thing that will slipstream a service pack in to windows. I do or did this all the time wiht my xp disks on both laptops and it is perfectly legal.

Good luck.
On Nov 4, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> I have moved this off Mac Access as it's getting way off topic.
> 
> I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. IO am not a technically minded person and Gordon is asleep.
> 
> There were a few typos as well which just added to my confusion. :)
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 01:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> If you want ot slipstream try nlite. Tha'ts all I'll say on that subject and good luck with installing in to bootcamp.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 03:49:20 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 03:49:20 +0000
Subject: what nonsense
In-Reply-To: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
References: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <371E9310-ADA9-4D6A-8B14-D554E5009ABE@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 5 Nov 2010, at 03:28, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Ok this sounds just scary, and fake. got it from someone off of twitter and read most of it. 
> I don't see the purpose of this. and some of this stuff goes way over my head 
> 
This is for IT professionals i think but I'm puzzled as to why you posted it if you didn't see the point. :) I don't pretend to understand it either but maybe somebody will if they can be bothered reading it. ;-)

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 03:52:40 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 03:52:40 +0000
Subject: Windows Phone 7 has an app kill switch too
In-Reply-To: <9F6CC9B3-A896-4FAE-84D9-BEF65E01F9A0@gmail.com>
References: <1D8C1717-A9C5-49E7-B45F-6FCE76130536@gmail.com>
	<F254E540-C838-423D-80D7-632637338480@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<9F6CC9B3-A896-4FAE-84D9-BEF65E01F9A0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97632870-E259-43A8-9775-E4B69B676688@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 5 Nov 2010, at 03:47, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Actually the early versions of vista and 7 had a kill switch but MS took it out according to the article because piracy went down.

Piracy is something I totally disagree with and I hope that anybody involved in it gets hammered as hard as possible under the law.

But yes, I gather there were quite a few things that didn't make it into the final versions of Windows. I also gather that versions of Office and other such things are trackable by somebody looking at the headers of files. At least that's how it was in versions up to Office 2003 but I don't know about later versions.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 03:54:09 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 03:54:09 +0000
Subject: Boot Camp Installation Of OS
In-Reply-To: <40B14019-70C1-4AB0-AA7F-9871B6315F31@gmail.com>
References: <76B1D60E-3177-48BA-A390-9657756845F9@mac-access.net>
	<09608EB3-6DEE-4B14-9019-AD4DCAAC1A03@charter.net>
	<2DED5775-3599-4998-8FD1-81B2E411DCCE@mac-access.net>
	<0ACC2102-935A-49E3-9B2B-F030B6F0134F@charter.net>
	<10D2CDD6-42AC-40AD-8E06-F45C0A6C1EC4@gmail.com>
	<E04689C5-9452-4760-A75D-6CA7045FDA96@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<40B14019-70C1-4AB0-AA7F-9871B6315F31@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB14525B-539A-494F-B085-7466677C7AE1@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I still have no idea what you're talking about Sarah. I have no technical background whatsoever.

Lynne

On 5 Nov 2010, at 03:48, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> NLite is a thing that will slipstream a service pack in to windows. I do or did this all the time wiht my xp disks on both laptops and it is perfectly legal.
> 
> Good luck.
> On Nov 4, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello Sarah
>> 
>> I have moved this off Mac Access as it's getting way off topic.
>> 
>> I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. IO am not a technically minded person and Gordon is asleep.
>> 
>> There were a few typos as well which just added to my confusion. :)
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> On 5 Nov 2010, at 01:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> If you want ot slipstream try nlite. Tha'ts all I'll say on that subject and good luck with installing in to bootcamp.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Nov  5 04:07:52 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 23:07:52 -0500
Subject: what the crap? Sorry about language but I don't even know what
	this is.
In-Reply-To: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
References: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DE12C294-2516-483A-8CBA-39F9B2C40269@softcon.com>

What this is, is something you should immediately remove from your  
system, pretend you never saw it, and (though I'd not normally suggest  
such a thing) remove this thread from the archives)
This is one of those programs hackers use to gain access of other's  
machines.  They do this by pretending to be legitimate servers (such  
as update.apple.com) after they've hijacked your dns servers.  Then,  
when you machine checks for updates to your existing software, this  
little baby snatches the request, inserts it's own binaries, and  
distributes them to your machine, and you happily install them,  
thinking they're official updates.
And, after that, the hackers own your machine, and use it to offload  
spam or infected binaries to other machines.  Do yourself a favor, and  
stop visiting the site where you found this little piece of the net.   
It won't help you at all, and it could hose your entire system if you  
get tied up in their little distribution scheme.
Supposedly, this is a virus research company, but since it's not one I  
recognize, and it seems to have three different domain names (just in  
the first few pages of the docs) I'd mark this one up to a fake  
research center, and do everything I could to get them and anything  
I've clicked on from them off my system, and keep them locked that way.
(it's possible they're a real research company, but it sure doesn't  
look like it to me just from a casual browsing of the page you ssent.)  
I will however make sure I tell MccAffee about them, they will know  
for sure whether they're real or not.

But, for your own sake, (and anyone else who has visited this link)  
remove it from your web history, and don't click on these guys in the  
future, there's no telling what they might try to load onto your  
machines.
This is very likely one of the origin points for all those bot  
infecting networks out there.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 04:55:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:55:52 -0700
Subject: what nonsense
In-Reply-To: <371E9310-ADA9-4D6A-8B14-D554E5009ABE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
	<371E9310-ADA9-4D6A-8B14-D554E5009ABE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9447BC77-9405-41AD-AB19-E3ADA252D7CC@gmail.com>

Apparently a friend of mine who read the whole thing says it is for a way to redirect ips and stuff on your computer. If the person had the know how, they could redirect www.google.com to go to a misleading site and infect your computer. but since all of us keep our software up to date we should not have to worry. I don't post stuff only I'm interested in. lol! I post for someone who might benefit from read this or for an interesting read.

Take care all.
On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 03:28, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Ok this sounds just scary, and fake. got it from someone off of twitter and read most of it. 
>> I don't see the purpose of this. and some of this stuff goes way over my head 
>> 
> This is for IT professionals i think but I'm puzzled as to why you posted it if you didn't see the point. :) I don't pretend to understand it either but maybe somebody will if they can be bothered reading it. ;-)
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 04:57:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:57:34 -0700
Subject: what the crap? Sorry about language but I don't even know what
	this is.
In-Reply-To: <DE12C294-2516-483A-8CBA-39F9B2C40269@softcon.com>
References: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
	<DE12C294-2516-483A-8CBA-39F9B2C40269@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <36C33E61-C2CA-442D-B75D-49F87CD83627@gmail.com>

Yeah probably. I'ts too late actually. Oh no I'm not enfected at all but I a friend of mine posted it on twitter, and it is only a text file anyways. The poster who shall remain nameless seemed very scared.

Take car eall. Hopefully I can find something else of interest to post here.

S
On Nov 4, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> What this is, is something you should immediately remove from your system, pretend you never saw it, and (though I'd not normally suggest such a thing) remove this thread from the archives)
> This is one of those programs hackers use to gain access of other's machines.  They do this by pretending to be legitimate servers (such as update.apple.com) after they've hijacked your dns servers.  Then, when you machine checks for updates to your existing software, this little baby snatches the request, inserts it's own binaries, and distributes them to your machine, and you happily install them, thinking they're official updates.
> And, after that, the hackers own your machine, and use it to offload spam or infected binaries to other machines.  Do yourself a favor, and stop visiting the site where you found this little piece of the net.  It won't help you at all, and it could hose your entire system if you get tied up in their little distribution scheme.
> Supposedly, this is a virus research company, but since it's not one I recognize, and it seems to have three different domain names (just in the first few pages of the docs) I'd mark this one up to a fake research center, and do everything I could to get them and anything I've clicked on from them off my system, and keep them locked that way.
> (it's possible they're a real research company, but it sure doesn't look like it to me just from a casual browsing of the page you ssent.) I will however make sure I tell MccAffee about them, they will know for sure whether they're real or not.
> 
> But, for your own sake, (and anyone else who has visited this link) remove it from your web history, and don't click on these guys in the future, there's no telling what they might try to load onto your machines.
> This is very likely one of the origin points for all those bot infecting networks out there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 05:00:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:00:16 -0700
Subject: Boot Camp Installation Of OS
In-Reply-To: <DB14525B-539A-494F-B085-7466677C7AE1@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <76B1D60E-3177-48BA-A390-9657756845F9@mac-access.net>
	<09608EB3-6DEE-4B14-9019-AD4DCAAC1A03@charter.net>
	<2DED5775-3599-4998-8FD1-81B2E411DCCE@mac-access.net>
	<0ACC2102-935A-49E3-9B2B-F030B6F0134F@charter.net>
	<10D2CDD6-42AC-40AD-8E06-F45C0A6C1EC4@gmail.com>
	<E04689C5-9452-4760-A75D-6CA7045FDA96@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<40B14019-70C1-4AB0-AA7F-9871B6315F31@gmail.com>
	<DB14525B-539A-494F-B085-7466677C7AE1@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9D520219-FD9C-4087-A458-24DD6A38FD88@gmail.com>

NLite slipstreams or in other words merges files so your windows cds have service pack 3 on there. You can do this with office cds I believe with other software as well. I've also slipstreamed installs I use like my antivirus software and made an unattended kit that would install not only windows along with all updates at the time of createing my merged cd but my software I use excluding jaws but including my antivirus and antispyware softwares as well. I got another IT hooked on to NLite and now he does nothing but thank me a lot. lol!
On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:54 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> I still have no idea what you're talking about Sarah. I have no technical background whatsoever.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 03:48, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> NLite is a thing that will slipstream a service pack in to windows. I do or did this all the time wiht my xp disks on both laptops and it is perfectly legal.
>> 
>> Good luck.
>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Sarah
>>> 
>>> I have moved this off Mac Access as it's getting way off topic.
>>> 
>>> I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. IO am not a technically minded person and Gordon is asleep.
>>> 
>>> There were a few typos as well which just added to my confusion. :)
>>> 
>>> Lynne
>>> 
>>> On 5 Nov 2010, at 01:03, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> If you want ot slipstream try nlite. Tha'ts all I'll say on that subject and good luck with installing in to bootcamp.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 05:28:59 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:28:59 -0700
Subject: Kindles Secret Sibling: Amazon's Android Tablet
Message-ID: <0C1153E5-31E9-4C1B-8588-12D385857FEB@gmail.com>

If the android could be made fully accessible could this be the way to use a kindle? read more:  http://zd.net/a4qQjn

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 10:43:47 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:43:47 +0000
Subject: what the crap? Sorry about language but I don't even know what
	this is.
In-Reply-To: <DE12C294-2516-483A-8CBA-39F9B2C40269@softcon.com>
References: <1B1BEB88-D641-420C-951D-85D6AF521B92@gmail.com>
	<DE12C294-2516-483A-8CBA-39F9B2C40269@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <12FB245F-BC14-4C63-A89C-A0E8222A982A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Travis

My god, I'm astonished.  I never saw the original post until now.  I'll see if there's a way to delete it.  But I echo your advice to people who like trawling the Internet for lovely new information, be a bit more careful.

Gordon

On 5 Nov 2010, at 04:07, Travis Siegel wrote:

> What this is, is something you should immediately remove from your system, pretend you never saw it, and (though I'd not normally suggest such a thing) remove this thread from the archives)
> This is one of those programs hackers use to gain access of other's machines.  They do this by pretending to be legitimate servers (such as update.apple.com) after they've hijacked your dns servers.  Then, when you machine checks for updates to your existing software, this little baby snatches the request, inserts it's own binaries, and distributes them to your machine, and you happily install them, thinking they're official updates.
> And, after that, the hackers own your machine, and use it to offload spam or infected binaries to other machines.  Do yourself a favor, and stop visiting the site where you found this little piece of the net.  It won't help you at all, and it could hose your entire system if you get tied up in their little distribution scheme.
> Supposedly, this is a virus research company, but since it's not one I recognize, and it seems to have three different domain names (just in the first few pages of the docs) I'd mark this one up to a fake research center, and do everything I could to get them and anything I've clicked on from them off my system, and keep them locked that way.
> (it's possible they're a real research company, but it sure doesn't look like it to me just from a casual browsing of the page you ssent.) I will however make sure I tell MccAffee about them, they will know for sure whether they're real or not.
> 
> But, for your own sake, (and anyone else who has visited this link) remove it from your web history, and don't click on these guys in the future, there's no telling what they might try to load onto your machines.
> This is very likely one of the origin points for all those bot infecting networks out there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 16:50:37 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:50:37 +0000
Subject: One bit of good news
Message-ID: <8A6E2220-8159-4857-9F7A-779B6F8A9DBC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybodh

You might remember some time ago on this list, I posted a question about getting Perkins Braillers repaired here in the UK. I managed to find the repair address at RNIB and about a couple of weeks ago we sent Gordon's Perkins off to them for repair.

This afternoon a parcel arrived for Gordon, containing his Perkins, all nicely packaged, very well so actually.

When he opened the box and managed to burrow through the many layers of thick bubble paper, he discovered his Perkins. So he took it out and looked at it.  It's as good as new now, apart from the fact that it doesn't seem to like paper whose edge has been prepared for a comb binder. I don't know whether that is normal or not. But when we turned the paper  around and gave it the flat edge instead at the point where the paper mechanism is, it went in fine most of the time and just worked.

Well, almost. Gordon says it still doesn't quite have the feel it once had when inserting paper. I'm not quite sure what he means buy that; but he says it isn't quite the same as it used to be.

But the main thing is that it works, and it produces good quality Braille. So now I can start learning how to use the Perkins-style keyboard and I can try and learn to write Braille. I've just about learned the alphabet and I want to put what I've learned into practice.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 19:48:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:48:35 -0700
Subject: Google locking Facebook out of Gmail
Message-ID: <3A975EFE-ED9B-4407-AC40-88F948979BD5@gmail.com>

Is this fair for google to not allow Facebook contacts? Can google not allow facebook to access its gmail contacts?  read more:  http://bit.ly/a5WNqv

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Nov  5 19:52:58 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:52:58 -0500
Subject: giant iphone costume
In-Reply-To: <0C1153E5-31E9-4C1B-8588-12D385857FEB@gmail.com>
References: <0C1153E5-31E9-4C1B-8588-12D385857FEB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E3A1E190-8CE1-4703-B802-6F9355E6FE1A@softcon.com>

Now, this is cool.  Apparently, some folks built an iphone costume.
The thing uses a 40-inch display, and is powered by a jailbroken
iphone, running on a 12-volt battery.  It only gets about 2 hours of
battery life, but how cool is that?  Link below.

http://www.techcavern.com/giant-iphone-4-costume/

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 19:54:47 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:54:47 -0700
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24 songs...sounds
	fair
Message-ID: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>

Will the mom fork over the money? or will she still continue to download? read more:  http://bit.ly/ckKKbo

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Nov  5 20:12:34 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:12:34 -0500
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B970B32-9871-4455-B03F-E9274BBA54C8@softcon.com>

I personally think the whole riaa organization should be forced to  
fork over 1.5 million bucks for all the time they're wasting going  
after people who have almost nothing to do with filesharing,  
downloading music, or (in one case) even logging onto the internet.   
You can't convince me that 62,500 bucks per song is reasonable by any  
stretch of the imagination.  Whoever the jury was out to be taken out  
and shot for propagating such complete and utter nonsense.
I notice they didn't specify which 24 songs she has to pay for.  If  
this woman truly had 1700 songs on her computer as they claim, then  
why are they focusing on only 24 of them?
Let's see, at 99 cents per download (as apple charges) in order to be  
required to pay 62,500 for each song, that would mean someone would  
have had to download 63,131 copies of each song.  Now, how likely is  
that?
Add to that, the bandwidth requirements, (an average song is 4-5  
megabytes) and you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of  
250GB per song.  multiply that by 24, and you've got some serious  
bandwidth usage.  I don't know about you folks, but I don't have that  
kind of bandwidth available here.  I'm in serious doubt  they even  
have a case, much less the ability to win 3 times as they have so  
far.  Who the heck is this woman's lawyer, she needs to fire them and  
get a new one.
And, this isn't even the largest settlement riaa has asked for.  This  
is just plain greed, nothing less, nothing more.
How many lawsuits by the riaa do you think resulted in increased  
revenues for the artist who had their songs downloaded?
I can tell you.
none.
If these folks are supposedly protecting the rights of the artists,  
then why is it the artists never see a penny of these settlements?


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 20:18:12 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:18:12 -0700
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <9B970B32-9871-4455-B03F-E9274BBA54C8@softcon.com>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
	<9B970B32-9871-4455-B03F-E9274BBA54C8@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <FECD5AAF-4FA4-4025-A61D-FEBA0A18C577@gmail.com>

Oh I agree. The  whole thing makes me sick and the IRAA should be dead. not the people of corse but the company, organization or what ever they are. I hope that case loses.
On Nov 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I personally think the whole riaa organization should be forced to fork over 1.5 million bucks for all the time they're wasting going after people who have almost nothing to do with filesharing, downloading music, or (in one case) even logging onto the internet.  You can't convince me that 62,500 bucks per song is reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.  Whoever the jury was out to be taken out and shot for propagating such complete and utter nonsense.
> I notice they didn't specify which 24 songs she has to pay for.  If this woman truly had 1700 songs on her computer as they claim, then why are they focusing on only 24 of them?
> Let's see, at 99 cents per download (as apple charges) in order to be required to pay 62,500 for each song, that would mean someone would have had to download 63,131 copies of each song.  Now, how likely is that?
> Add to that, the bandwidth requirements, (an average song is 4-5 megabytes) and you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 250GB per song.  multiply that by 24, and you've got some serious bandwidth usage.  I don't know about you folks, but I don't have that kind of bandwidth available here.  I'm in serious doubt  they even have a case, much less the ability to win 3 times as they have so far.  Who the heck is this woman's lawyer, she needs to fire them and get a new one.
> And, this isn't even the largest settlement riaa has asked for.  This is just plain greed, nothing less, nothing more.
> How many lawsuits by the riaa do you think resulted in increased revenues for the artist who had their songs downloaded?
> I can tell you.
> none.
> If these folks are supposedly protecting the rights of the artists, then why is it the artists never see a penny of these settlements?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov  5 21:33:13 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:33:13 +0000
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <320FAE57-C31F-469D-A06F-6987369D2044@tft-bbs.co.uk>

This is just silly.  If the woman is just your average mum she just doesn't have a hope of paying all that money out.  The record companies are wasting their time and money suing her.  Not that I'm condoning what she did, but let's face it it's something that everybody, absolutely everybody who uses the Internet has done in one shape or another.

The answer is for the courts to ban her from having access to the Internet, not fine her ridiculous sums of money that she doesn't have a prayer of paying.

I'm sorry I don't mean this in any way offensive.  But this just typifies the American legal system in my opinion.

Gordon

On 5 Nov 2010, at 19:54, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Will the mom fork over the money? or will she still continue to download? read more:  

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 05:55:32 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:55:32 -0700
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <320FAE57-C31F-469D-A06F-6987369D2044@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
	<320FAE57-C31F-469D-A06F-6987369D2044@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9F3FFB9B-F8A0-4646-9ED7-33EEAE4992DD@gmail.com>

Oh I agree. I've heard of worse cases but yeah that's the way our justice system has gone. down the tubes.

S
On Nov 5, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> This is just silly.  If the woman is just your average mum she just doesn't have a hope of paying all that money out.  The record companies are wasting their time and money suing her.  Not that I'm condoning what she did, but let's face it it's something that everybody, absolutely everybody who uses the Internet has done in one shape or another.
> 
> The answer is for the courts to ban her from having access to the Internet, not fine her ridiculous sums of money that she doesn't have a prayer of paying.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't mean this in any way offensive.  But this just typifies the American legal system in my opinion.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 19:54, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Will the mom fork over the money? or will she still continue to download? read more:  
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Nov  6 13:17:57 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:17:57 +0000
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <9F3FFB9B-F8A0-4646-9ED7-33EEAE4992DD@gmail.com>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
	<320FAE57-C31F-469D-A06F-6987369D2044@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<9F3FFB9B-F8A0-4646-9ED7-33EEAE4992DD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <538AE334-173C-4BE2-8BB6-6A9118160B0A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Actually, this opens up a new can of worms.  Since the recording industry is so keen to sue individuals for this type of thing, how about them suing other companies, such as Apple for giving us the tools to do the ripping.  Of course, that is just crazy.  But you get the idea.  It is laughable really because they go after one particular individual or group of individuals who they know for a fact don't have a prayer.

Gordon

On 6 Nov 2010, at 05:55, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Oh I agree. I've heard of worse cases but yeah that's the way our justice system has gone. down the tubes.
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 20:26:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:26:27 -0700
Subject: File Sharing Mom Ordered To Pay $1.5 Million-for 24
	songs...sounds fair
In-Reply-To: <538AE334-173C-4BE2-8BB6-6A9118160B0A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <E53DEAB6-3AEA-4E86-A88D-95DB58312105@gmail.com>
	<320FAE57-C31F-469D-A06F-6987369D2044@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<9F3FFB9B-F8A0-4646-9ED7-33EEAE4992DD@gmail.com>
	<538AE334-173C-4BE2-8BB6-6A9118160B0A@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D051BE1A-6C61-44EF-B84E-D3D57AB796C4@gmail.com>

It's unfortunate but true. I guess we'll see what comes out of this case. Hopefully the IRAA loses the case.
On Nov 6, 2010, at 6:17 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Actually, this opens up a new can of worms.  Since the recording industry is so keen to sue individuals for this type of thing, how about them suing other companies, such as Apple for giving us the tools to do the ripping.  Of course, that is just crazy.  But you get the idea.  It is laughable really because they go after one particular individual or group of individuals who they know for a fact don't have a prayer.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 6 Nov 2010, at 05:55, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Oh I agree. I've heard of worse cases but yeah that's the way our justice system has gone. down the tubes.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 20:32:54 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:32:54 -0700
Subject: Fun! The speed camera that doesn't just check your speed 
Message-ID: <854F0161-BF9A-43EF-A96F-D5236D589D64@gmail.com>

Will these cameras hit the states and will they be able really to issue 4 tickets at a time? read more: http://bit.ly/dntyuU

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 20:35:39 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:35:39 -0700
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
Message-ID: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>

Will windows look like apple? will windows tablets rival the ipad? what's in store for windows 8? read more:  http://bit.ly/axg37d

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 21:27:26 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 14:27:26 -0700
Subject: ISPs on net neutrality: TV networks are the real villains
Message-ID: <B92BE72D-2672-4963-9BA6-7747F4A6DDA2@gmail.com>

What's gong to happen with the net neutrality battle now? will fox and other networks get involved? read more:   http://bit.ly/9AxnWz

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:17:24 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 16:17:24 -0700
Subject: Reports show HP was right to dump Hurd 
Message-ID: <FD32E94C-287C-48B3-9B69-36803C770D8D@gmail.com>

Is this article bias? Is ti telling the truth? read more: http://bit.ly/8XJ9IZ

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sat Nov  6 23:18:18 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 10:18:18 +1100
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>

Always interesting to hear what Steve Balmy has to say.

I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP but yours truly is never likely to be using it given the costs of purchasing a copy and that's the main reason.

Windows 8? Well I don't think anyone need get too exciting, who knows what OS10 will sport in the not to distant future.


On 07/11/2010, at 7:35 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Will windows look like apple? will windows tablets rival the ipad? what's in store for windows 8? read more:  http://bit.ly/axg37d
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:40:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 16:40:14 -0700
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <507F6155-1286-4CAF-A779-E3E743C893EE@gmail.com>

That's true. Im happy with windows 7 and it serves my purpose but I'm always curious as to what the next genearation of windows will produce.
On Nov 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Always interesting to hear what Steve Balmy has to say.
> 
> I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP but yours truly is never likely to be using it given the costs of purchasing a copy and that's the main reason.
> 
> Windows 8? Well I don't think anyone need get too exciting, who knows what OS10 will sport in the not to distant future.
> 
> 
> On 07/11/2010, at 7:35 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Will windows look like apple? will windows tablets rival the ipad? what's in store for windows 8? read more:  http://bit.ly/axg37d
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Nov  7 00:00:30 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 11:00:30 +1100
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <507F6155-1286-4CAF-A779-E3E743C893EE@gmail.com>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
	<507F6155-1286-4CAF-A779-E3E743C893EE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC4A0E63-FB15-43F7-B555-EED1C6FA5F12@internode.on.net>

Indeed and your attitude is what I like, operating systems come and they go, all of which have advantages and disadvantages for the user but what I really dislike are those people who say that one environment is better than another, actually I've seen people cut off their nose despite there face with this sort of foolish outlook all to often.

For example, I was talking to someone the other day who had both a Windows machine and a Mac machine and there's nothing whatever wrong with that.  He had a particular editing project he wanted to finish quickly and he was having trouble getting Amadeus Pro working the way he wanted it to on the mac, there are several sides to that issue alone but I'll disregard that for the moment.

My immediate suggestion to him was that - as he already had a liscenced copy of Sound Forge and that he had used the software before and - given the fact that the job had to be done quickly - he use Sound Forge and do the job, he refused saying he didn't want to use Windows.

Well that attitude to me is just silly, you have a job to do right? Then do it no matter what you use, that's my attitude and if you're having problems with 1 new application for doing that job then go back to your tried and true method to get the job done.


On 07/11/2010, at 10:40 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> That's true. Im happy with windows 7 and it serves my purpose but I'm always curious as to what the next genearation of windows will produce.
> On Nov 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Always interesting to hear what Steve Balmy has to say.
>> 
>> I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP but yours truly is never likely to be using it given the costs of purchasing a copy and that's the main reason.
>> 
>> Windows 8? Well I don't think anyone need get too exciting, who knows what OS10 will sport in the not to distant future.
>> 
>> 
>> On 07/11/2010, at 7:35 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> Will windows look like apple? will windows tablets rival the ipad? what's in store for windows 8? read more:  http://bit.ly/axg37d
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 00:12:49 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:12:49 -0700
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <BC4A0E63-FB15-43F7-B555-EED1C6FA5F12@internode.on.net>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
	<507F6155-1286-4CAF-A779-E3E743C893EE@gmail.com>
	<BC4A0E63-FB15-43F7-B555-EED1C6FA5F12@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <1ED2E2E3-BB3E-4C19-B4DC-EE7555C793BA@gmail.com>

Oh eyah. and that's the atitude I try and have all of my converts, for lack of a better term adopt. Learn all sorts of OS's and  learn the technology if you can and if not well then well enough to use it and get yourself out of jams. but I'm guessing we'll hear more about this windows 8 in about 2 years.

Tae care.

S
On Nov 6, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Indeed and your attitude is what I like, operating systems come and they go, all of which have advantages and disadvantages for the user but what I really dislike are those people who say that one environment is better than another, actually I've seen people cut off their nose despite there face with this sort of foolish outlook all to often.
> 
> For example, I was talking to someone the other day who had both a Windows machine and a Mac machine and there's nothing whatever wrong with that.  He had a particular editing project he wanted to finish quickly and he was having trouble getting Amadeus Pro working the way he wanted it to on the mac, there are several sides to that issue alone but I'll disregard that for the moment.
> 
> My immediate suggestion to him was that - as he already had a liscenced copy of Sound Forge and that he had used the software before and - given the fact that the job had to be done quickly - he use Sound Forge and do the job, he refused saying he didn't want to use Windows.
> 
> Well that attitude to me is just silly, you have a job to do right? Then do it no matter what you use, that's my attitude and if you're having problems with 1 new application for doing that job then go back to your tried and true method to get the job done.
> 
> 
> On 07/11/2010, at 10:40 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> That's true. Im happy with windows 7 and it serves my purpose but I'm always curious as to what the next genearation of windows will produce.
>> On Nov 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>>> Always interesting to hear what Steve Balmy has to say.
>>> 
>>> I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP but yours truly is never likely to be using it given the costs of purchasing a copy and that's the main reason.
>>> 
>>> Windows 8? Well I don't think anyone need get too exciting, who knows what OS10 will sport in the not to distant future.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 07/11/2010, at 7:35 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Will windows look like apple? will windows tablets rival the ipad? what's in store for windows 8? read more:  http://bit.ly/axg37d
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 06:21:20 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:21:20 -0700
Subject: Remote control that lets you steer people as they walk.
Message-ID: <FC0079BA-8E93-46EF-BF17-71F393FA0FD2@gmail.com>

This is way too cool! read more:   http://bit.ly/bXr6yH

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 02:59:09 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:59:09 -0800
Subject: Trend Micro cries "antitrust" over Microsoft Security Essentials: 
Message-ID: <BEFCFD76-8EA7-4512-97C2-C0FBB8CB1143@gmail.com>

Is Microsoft being fair in what it is now doing? Will more antivirus companies cry fowl? read more: http://arst.ch/n35 by @drpizza

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Nov  8 04:11:16 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 15:11:16 +1100
Subject: Trend Micro cries "antitrust" over Microsoft Security Essentials:
In-Reply-To: <BEFCFD76-8EA7-4512-97C2-C0FBB8CB1143@gmail.com>
References: <BEFCFD76-8EA7-4512-97C2-C0FBB8CB1143@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1051C71-9E90-4978-81D5-123FD5F575FF@internode.on.net>

Well if any improvement can be made to Trend Micro security products then all well and good, used to use them but things like Eset Nod32 and Viper Anti Virus leave Trend Micro product for Windows for dead, last time I tried Trend Micro Security 2008 I think it was called my Windows machine slowed to an absolute crawl.


On 08/11/2010, at 1:59 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Is Microsoft being fair in what it is now doing? Will more antivirus companies cry fowl? read more: http://arst.ch/n35 by @drpizza
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 06:52:10 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:52:10 -0800
Subject: Trend Micro cries "antitrust" over Microsoft Security Essentials:
In-Reply-To: <F1051C71-9E90-4978-81D5-123FD5F575FF@internode.on.net>
References: <BEFCFD76-8EA7-4512-97C2-C0FBB8CB1143@gmail.com>
	<F1051C71-9E90-4978-81D5-123FD5F575FF@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <FD35E741-9830-4E3F-9B5E-8A8BB5CE4A28@gmail.com>

Yeha I'm an MSE person my self. but just thought this was interesting.

S
On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Well if any improvement can be made to Trend Micro security products then all well and good, used to use them but things like Eset Nod32 and Viper Anti Virus leave Trend Micro product for Windows for dead, last time I tried Trend Micro Security 2008 I think it was called my Windows machine slowed to an absolute crawl.
> 
> 
> On 08/11/2010, at 1:59 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Is Microsoft being fair in what it is now doing? Will more antivirus companies cry fowl? read more: http://arst.ch/n35 by @drpizza
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov  8 23:14:37 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:14:37 +0000
Subject: Fun! The speed camera that doesn't just check your speed 
In-Reply-To: <854F0161-BF9A-43EF-A96F-D5236D589D64@gmail.com>
References: <854F0161-BF9A-43EF-A96F-D5236D589D64@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FC95EE-3830-4D59-B836-4E65E5171E6D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah


On 6 Nov 2010, at 20:32, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Will these cameras hit the states and will they be able really to issue 4 tickets at a time

In the UK they are already being rolled out. Although the government are kind of contradicting themselves by saying that speed cameras cost too much to run.

We have cameras all over the streets of our cities and they're getting ever more sophisticated.

Lynne



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov  8 23:26:16 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:26:16 +0000
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <BE05D23A-1CD7-43B0-8171-32CE9963053C@tft-bbs.co.uk>


It's sad actually how some so-called open-minded people seem to feel they can read the minds of others, and judge them accordingly.  Perhaps they'd like to let others in on the secret of telepathy?  It would be an interesting technological chat subject if that were the case.

But getting back to the original subject, my employer gave me permission to buy a volume license copy of 7 for the company, and also a couple of personal licenses for use here at home so that I could administrate their sub-network when it gets set up, as in when I get around to doing it.

I'm interested to see what 7 actually looks like although I doubt it'll be vastly different from XP in a lot of ways.  Just a few flashy little extras.

I would never dispute that Windows does have its good points, just as OSX has it bad points.  But overall, I prefer OSX. although their are a few functions within Windows which I do miss.

Oh, and this time it really is Gordon writing.  I think my other half forgot to change accounts when she replied to Sarah.

Gordon

On 6 Nov 2010, at 23:18, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
> I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 06:31:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:31:27 -0800
Subject: Google News spammer has new site, same trick 
Message-ID: <A5259553-DFE6-44B2-ACCE-01EAA7604555@gmail.com>

Will gogole be able to take these sites down? will these sites use the same tricks over and over again for spamming google news? read more: http://bit.ly/bLxc6b

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 06:32:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:32:38 -0800
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <BE05D23A-1CD7-43B0-8171-32CE9963053C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
	<BE05D23A-1CD7-43B0-8171-32CE9963053C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <982C83A9-2810-4FF2-86F2-0661062CC2A8@gmail.com>

lol! No 7 has a totally different look. I use it ona daily basis along wiht the oether platform which shall remain nameless on this list. lol! and both are very similar int he way they operate.

Good luck
On Nov 8, 2010, at 3:26 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> 
> It's sad actually how some so-called open-minded people seem to feel they can read the minds of others, and judge them accordingly.  Perhaps they'd like to let others in on the secret of telepathy?  It would be an interesting technological chat subject if that were the case.
> 
> But getting back to the original subject, my employer gave me permission to buy a volume license copy of 7 for the company, and also a couple of personal licenses for use here at home so that I could administrate their sub-network when it gets set up, as in when I get around to doing it.
> 
> I'm interested to see what 7 actually looks like although I doubt it'll be vastly different from XP in a lot of ways.  Just a few flashy little extras.
> 
> I would never dispute that Windows does have its good points, just as OSX has it bad points.  But overall, I prefer OSX. although their are a few functions within Windows which I do miss.
> 
> Oh, and this time it really is Gordon writing.  I think my other half forgot to change accounts when she replied to Sarah.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 6 Nov 2010, at 23:18, Dane Trethowan wrote:
>> 
>> I'm thankful that I believe myself to have an open mind on all this stuff unlike so many others <smile>, I know people who think Windows 7 to be excellent when compared to Windows XP
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 07:15:36 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:15:36 -0800
Subject: Fun! The speed camera that doesn't just check your speed
In-Reply-To: <47FC95EE-3830-4D59-B836-4E65E5171E6D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <854F0161-BF9A-43EF-A96F-D5236D589D64@gmail.com>
	<47FC95EE-3830-4D59-B836-4E65E5171E6D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EC0439AB-6A0B-43ED-BF7F-4BEE66466F97@gmail.com>

Oh wow! Interesting! Yeah that article was a tad scarry.

S
On Nov 8, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> 
> On 6 Nov 2010, at 20:32, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Will these cameras hit the states and will they be able really to issue 4 tickets at a time
> 
> In the UK they are already being rolled out. Although the government are kind of contradicting themselves by saying that speed cameras cost too much to run.
> 
> We have cameras all over the streets of our cities and they're getting ever more sophisticated.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  9 12:50:37 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:50:37 +0000
Subject: Windows 8 a 'Risky Product,' Says Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <982C83A9-2810-4FF2-86F2-0661062CC2A8@gmail.com>
References: <C080B473-35FE-43A2-942E-8D4349DA3322@gmail.com>
	<D98315ED-8BA2-465F-87A5-A24B99204CFF@internode.on.net>
	<BE05D23A-1CD7-43B0-8171-32CE9963053C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<982C83A9-2810-4FF2-86F2-0661062CC2A8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2EAB2888-FF75-43C6-8A64-DCBE60F97F6E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 9 Nov 2010, at 06:32, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? lol! No 7 has a totally different look. I use it ona daily basis along wiht the oether platform which shall remain nameless on this list. lol! and both are very similar int he way they operate.

We installed 7 last week as a test VM but got no sound from it. We're going to install it in a real environment either today or tomorrow to see what happens. I'm hoping we don't have all that hassle with drivers here, drivers there; but I'm not hopeful.

But we're certainly keeping an open mind as to how well or otherwise it performs.

We certainly don't want to get involved in the "My toy's better than your toy" argument which I know has done the rounds on many lists in the past. It's entirely down to the individual I think which one they opt to use. We have licenses for 7, so we're going to give it a try.

XP, under our VM, is actually very stable. We use it for DAISY production and Braille translation. We're planning to install 7 stand-alone because the sad fact is that at the moment, there are still one or two things we cannot easily do on OSX which is our preferred platform.

Just out of interest, has anybody who is blind managed to install Windows 7 without visual assistance? If so, how did you accomplish it?

For us personally, further investment in Windows is out of the question, that's a fact. But for what we want it for, the things we have will do nicely.

We will report back to this group on our findings. 

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  9 15:24:06 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 15:24:06 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 Installed; but problems
Message-ID: <22B33FD6-505A-4F8A-B8CF-1DA72460F8F8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

This is one of those grey areas but essentially it's a Windows issue which is why I'm not posting it to Mac Access.

Gordon and I  have just installed Windows 7 under Boot Camp on his MacBook Pro. But although the installation went fine, and although we have installed the Boot Camp drivers from the Windows partition of the dual-partition Mac OS X operating system DVD we have no sound.

I can see everything just fine; and we seem to have networking and everything else as I can get on line. But no sound at all.

This seems very odd to us, as the sound card that is emulated when you boot into Windows is nothing more sophisticated than a SoundBlaster Live as far as we can tell. Earlier versions of Windows just picked those up without a problem, so Gordon says. But 7 didn't.

Can somebody please give us an idea also of the shutdown hot keys when you bring up the start menu which is actually totally new in relation to how it was in XP Pro.

We have Windows Ultimate installed but he can't go any further until we get sound.

Thanks in advance or any help or suggestions which might be helpful.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov  9 18:13:02 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:13:02 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 working now!
Message-ID: <79F63593-7262-4ABE-99AA-3E4513B3F88A@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

Gordon and I have just beaten his problem with Windows 7. We now have it working with sound. It appears that Windows 7 is a bit more fussy than we thought it might be. but when Gordon had the brain wave of trying a different sound adapter, the good old iMic, it started to work. Then, when he gook the iMic back off again, the internal sound adapter also worked.

Anyway now the problem is beaten so he can start learning his way around Windows 7. Not that either of us plan to use it all that much; but it will be useful for DAISY and Braille as it is much much faster under Boot Camp than it is under Fusion and Parallels.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 03:01:43 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:01:43 +1100
Subject: Review of Yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio
Message-ID: <C7A9BCD3-3D4A-4592-8CB8-D6B81E2154A1@internode.on.net>

Hi!

This is a review of the yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio but its a clock radio with a difference as you'll hear.

The review has been submitted to Blind Cool Tech and should be available at www.blindcooltech.com shortly but in the meanwhile if you wish to hear it as in "Now!" you can download the review fromhttp://www.sendspace.com/file/ywhw5u

Note that this link expires in 7 days so grab it while its hot.



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:43:32 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 19:43:32 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Tries to Prevent Asus, Acer from Using Android, ChromeOS \ 
Message-ID: <30C9262F-189C-4A29-8DED-A664830A4E2E@gmail.com>

What happens when you have a broken us patent system? read more: http://bit.ly/cpOGcr

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 10 13:44:20 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 07:44:20 -0600
Subject: Everything you need to know about windows
Message-ID: <955B5C39-0B4A-48DF-9930-243D0D7B4A29@softcon.com>

Hey guys.  Just thought I'd pass this along, since a lot of folks here  
use windows, this may be a good resource.  It's actually akin to the  
take control books for the mac.
The author has written several books, and has run the internet tourbus  
for many years, I've been a subscriber since the mid 1990s.
He's always got good advice and stuff to report, so this book is  
definitely a resource you'll want to pick up if you want to know about  
the latest gatchas in windows, or just like to tinker with things.   
It's half price until nov 19, and the link as well as a description is  
below.
Hope this helps some.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=BFP97QFBDMGCQ
Order your copy of "Everything You Need to Know About WINDOWS - Tips,  
Tweaks and Tools" now, for only $13.97. That's a 50% DISCOUNT off the  
regular price of $27.95.

P.S. -- This 100 page ebook is packed full of rock-solid content -- no  
advertising, no gimmicks -- and I'm positive you'll find it worth  
every penny. In fact, if you follow my advice, you'll save many times  
more than the price of the book. But if you're not completely  
satisfied, I'm offering a money-back guarantee. This special offer  
will expire on November 19th, so get your copy today!

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 10 15:46:57 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:46:57 +0000
Subject: Rollback Pro RX & Diskeeper
Message-ID: <E40B2119-E04D-4030-AD4A-3BA8FA2E134F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Anybody know what you nbeed to do, if anything, to run these two apps together?  Now that we have a native Windows 7 app, it may as well be looked after.

We already have a license for RB9.1 and we're now going to upgrade to Diskeeper 10 or whatever it is these days.

Gordon


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 19:37:19 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:37:19 -0800
Subject: Review of Yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio
In-Reply-To: <C7A9BCD3-3D4A-4592-8CB8-D6B81E2154A1@internode.on.net>
References: <C7A9BCD3-3D4A-4592-8CB8-D6B81E2154A1@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <61D4ED5A-C18A-439C-95AE-8360A5F48DA0@gmail.com>

Yeah looks pretty good but the price tag is a bit high even for the us and the switching of stations is as slow as a turtle to me. I've  had radios that switch faster then that. the sound though is awesome!

S
On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> This is a review of the yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio but its a clock radio with a difference as you'll hear.
> 
> The review has been submitted to Blind Cool Tech and should be available at www.blindcooltech.com shortly but in the meanwhile if you wish to hear it as in "Now!" you can download the review fromhttp://www.sendspace.com/file/ywhw5u
> 
> Note that this link expires in 7 days so grab it while its hot.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 19:53:07 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 06:53:07 +1100
Subject: Review of Yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio
In-Reply-To: <61D4ED5A-C18A-439C-95AE-8360A5F48DA0@gmail.com>
References: <C7A9BCD3-3D4A-4592-8CB8-D6B81E2154A1@internode.on.net>
	<61D4ED5A-C18A-439C-95AE-8360A5F48DA0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0891F85B-E48B-42D5-94F4-8431C429871F@internode.on.net>

A couple of comments here.

Firstly we're dealing with DAB+ transmissions and not medium wave or FM transmissions.  All the DAB+ sets I have - I have half a dozen here - are very slow at switching between stations and I can only assume that this is because the radio monitors the signal to see how strong it is or is buffering? I'm not entirely sure but this is a characteristic it seems of DAB+.

Secondly I may be wrong of course but I'm yet to find a set which sounds as good as this Yamaha TSX-130, I believe that the Bose Wave Radio is similar in sound quality however it does not have a DAB+ radio, a USB port, a multi format CD player etc, this device is something you really have to hear for yourself and whilst the Zoom H1 gives a fairly good representation of the set it will never do it justice <smile>.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 11/11/2010, at 6:37 AM, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah looks pretty good but the price tag is a bit high even for the us and the switching of stations is as slow as a turtle to me. I've  had radios that switch faster then that. the sound though is awesome!
> 
> S
> On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> This is a review of the yamaha TSX-130 Clock Radio but its a clock radio with a difference as you'll hear.
>> 
>> The review has been submitted to Blind Cool Tech and should be available at www.blindcooltech.com shortly but in the meanwhile if you wish to hear it as in "Now!" you can download the review fromhttp://www.sendspace.com/file/ywhw5u
>> 
>> Note that this link expires in 7 days so grab it while its hot.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 10 20:09:40 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:09:40 +0000
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
Message-ID: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>

This is most irritating.  Diskeeper Corporation have moved towards using a customised download manager when you buy their products.  So it seems that you must be using Windows in order to download these things.  And how do we know exactly what they're trying to make us install.

Perhaps I'm being a little paranoid but I have encountered one situation in the not too distant past where a company's so-called download manager was also a piece of spyware which zipped up the user's registry files and uploaded them to that company.

I believe there was a thing made about that by the authorities and they forced this particular company to remove its download manager until that function was taken out.

All the same, I distrust them for that reason.  Guess I'll install RollBAck first and then install the download manager.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 10 20:42:01 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:42:01 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
Message-ID: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello

Well, I can only hope it is more stable and reliable.  Windows 7, to me at least, is Vista revisited.  The interface of Windows 7 looks almost the same to me as Vista did.

As Stevie Wonder said back in 2003, "So What the fuss?"  All the MS people are raving about 7 so can somebody tell me please, what is so special about it that makes is so "cool", as certain people have told me it is?

It looks to me like Vista as I've already said, and I don't know about others but GW Micro has really gone to town with their implementation of MSAA  within the Windows interface itself.

I hope it's backwards compatible, regarding certain pieces of software I used to use.  May as well install them and see what happens.  I'm astounded though at just how much hard disk space the operating system itself requires.  30GB minimum of hard drive space, and that's just to install the thing.  Apparently they're saying that 2GB is the minimum memory capacity recommended for 7.  Microsoft have not lost their ability to produce an extremely resource-hungry operating system and, it seems, I can sum up Windows 7 using either one of two sentences, each containing just four little words ... "More Of The Same", or ... "Much Of A Muchness".

Gordon



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 20:52:21 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:52:21 +1100
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
In-Reply-To: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>

Mountains out of molehills yet again <smile>.

Given the fact that Diskeeper is a piece of Windows software then this doesn't worry me at all and I can't see how it would worry anyone else, if it were a Mac piece of software then yep! I'd be dead right worried if the downloader worked only with Windows <smile>.

Now I could be wrong here but I think Diskeeper use the custom downloader idea as part of the anti piracy thing they have running.


On 11/11/2010, at 7:09 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> This is most irritating.  Diskeeper Corporation have moved towards using a customised download manager when you buy their products.  So it seems that you must be using Windows in order to download these things.  And how do we know exactly what they're trying to make us install.
> 
> Perhaps I'm being a little paranoid but I have encountered one situation in the not too distant past where a company's so-called download manager was also a piece of spyware which zipped up the user's registry files and uploaded them to that company.
> 
> I believe there was a thing made about that by the authorities and they forced this particular company to remove its download manager until that function was taken out.
> 
> All the same, I distrust them for that reason.  Guess I'll install RollBAck first and then install the download manager.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 20:54:24 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:54:24 +1100
Subject: Rollback Pro RX & Diskeeper
In-Reply-To: <E40B2119-E04D-4030-AD4A-3BA8FA2E134F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <E40B2119-E04D-4030-AD4A-3BA8FA2E134F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AB46511C-B4C9-4A73-9D05-80F0470750D3@internode.on.net>

Unfortunately I don't have the direct link to the article in the Rollback knowledge base any longer but that's where you'll find articles in relation to this.


On 11/11/2010, at 2:46 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> Anybody know what you nbeed to do, if anything, to run these two apps together?  Now that we have a native Windows 7 app, it may as well be looked after.
> 
> We already have a license for RB9.1 and we're now going to upgrade to Diskeeper 10 or whatever it is these days.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 21:42:18 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:42:18 +1100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?An_Accessibility_Review_of_the_Verizon_Haven_Cell?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phone_-_AccessWorld=AE_-_November_2010?=
Message-ID: <FAAD50D6-B084-4250-B318-8E4ED23FF399@internode.on.net>

Its always a pleasure to read reviews of phones which are readily available and which have accessibility bult-in to them.  It would appear however that this phone is a CDMA type so only people in the states will be able to benefit from it.


  				 				
		 AccessWorld ?
Technology and People Who Are Blind or Visually Impaired
	Change Colors and More | About AFB 
Donate Now | Press Room |	 Bookstore
Search AccessWorld    

	November 2010 Issue   Volume 11   Number 7			


Product Reviews

An Accessibility Review of the Verizon Haven Cell Phone

Tara Annis and Morgan Blubaugh

For the over 25 million Americans who experience vision loss, it can be difficult to find a simple, easy-to-use cell phone that isn't overly expensive or complicated. To date, the majority of accessible cell phones are either accessible smartphones that offer full accessibility but can be difficult to learn and are designed for more advanced use, or simple flip or brick phones that either require the installation of additional screen-access software or that don't extend accessibility to all phone functions. There is a need for a simple, easy-to-use cell phone that offers full accessibility right out of the box. The Haven cell phone, developed by Samsung and offered through Verizon, seeks to address this need by offering a phone that is designed for full accessibility from both low-vision and blindness perspectives.

The question is whether this phone actually offers the accessibility promised by Verizon. Is this phone that much better suited for people with visual impairment than other cell phones on the market?

In this article, we examine the accessibility of the Haven cell phone, taking into consideration its physical design, documentation, keypad, voice output, quality of its display, menu navigation, and its features.

Physical Description

The Haven is a small, dark-gray, rectangular flip phone weighing 3.7 ounces and measuring 4 by 2 by 0.7 inches when closed. The Haven features two electronic displays: a 1 by 1 inch display on the outside of the device, and a 1.4 by 1.8 inch internal display that can be viewed when the phone is flipped open. When closed, the phone is light and compact and fits easily into a pocket or the palm of your hand.

Along the left side of the phone are a raised, tactile volume rocker and an audio jack for headphones. The volume rocker is raised to a height that allows for it to be found easily. Along the right side of the phone is the USB data port for charging the device. Both the audio jack and USB port are the same color as the background, and the USB port has a covering that can make it difficult to find the first time you use the phone, but it is something that you can get used to.

The Haven is a basic cell phone, so it does not feature a camera and does not use any touch screens or touch controls. It does have a speaker built into the back, just above the battery compartment, which can be used as a speakerphone.

Documentation

The Haven comes with a 174-page user manual in a 6-by-4-inch booklet. The manual is printed in 12-point Arial Narrow font, which is far from the worst documentation we've seen, but is still considerably less than the 18-point font recommended by the American Printing House for the Blind for people with low vision. Additionally, there are a number of images and icons that are simply too small for many people with low vision to see. This is particularly evident when showing images of the keys, which are poorly labeled and extremely difficult to read when sized down to fit on the page. Fortunately, the manual is organized well and, with the exception of using images or icons in the place of text, easily understandable.

An electronic version of the manual is available on the Verizon website, under the accessibility section, along with the documentation for many of their other phones. There is also an option to order the Haven manual in an alternative format, such as braille or large print. The electronic version of the Haven's manual is an improvement over other Verizon phone documentation that AFB TECH has evaluated. For example, the documentation for the LG VX 4500 phone we evaluated in the May 2005 issue of AccessWorld was poorly written with regard to usability for people with vision loss. It did not provide page numbers in the table of contents for the various sections, and it was difficult to tell these various sections apart from one another due to poor text formatting in the print user manual.

The Haven manual does not contain the errors found in the LG VX 4500 manual, and even goes as far as providing descriptions of the phone's layout, such as:

"Voicemail Key: Press for voicemail. [Located at top of flip, bottom right hand side]"

Keypad

The Haven's keypad is broken into two parts: the numeric pad on the bottom, and a square grid of eight buttons directly above the numeric pad that surrounds a 4-way navigation key with OK button. The buttons on the top row of the square grid consist of two soft keys on either end with a "911" button between them. On the second row is a speakerphone button and a button labeled "ICE," which stands for "in case of emergency" and is used to automatically dial emergency numbers that can be programmed into the phone. The third row has, from left to right, the send, clear/backspace, and power/end buttons.

The numeric pad consists of 12 black keys with white lettering that have tactile distinctions between them. The numeric keys on the Haven are extremely easy to identify by touch. The 5 key has two nibs on it, on the left and right side, for orientation purposes. The keys are convex, except for the 5, which is flush with the surface of the phone, allowing for easy navigation across the keypad. The labeling on these buttons contrasts well with the background, and the numbers are large. Unfortunately, the buttons themselves are the same color as the background.

The square grid of buttons surrounding the four-way key are also easy to identify by touch because they alternate between being convex or flush with the phone's surface. So, when running a finger across the grid, you will trace in a pattern of convex, flat, convex, flat. The only button that may be somewhat difficult to feel is the four-way inside the grid as the four arrows and the OK button are all flat. If a large nib were placed on the OK button, as is found on the four arrow keys, this problem could be solved. The square grid is visually distinctive from the background, unlike the numeric keypad; these buttons are metallic and contrast strongly. Unfortunately, the labeling on the metallic buttons is noticeably smaller than the labeling on the numeric pad and does not contrast well with the metallic background. The 911, send, and power/end buttons are color coded, but more visual distinctions between these keys would make the device much more usable for people with low vision.

In addition to the numeric keypad and the square grid, there is a single row of buttons directly below the display on the top half of the phone. These are shortcut keys that can quickly access certain phone functions. From left to right, they are as follows: voice commands, my pictures, and voicemail. These buttons are the same color as the background and do not have any text labeling, instead using small icons that are difficult to see. The buttons are flush with the phone, but do have an indented vertical line between them, so they are somewhat easy to distinguish from one another.

Voice Output

The Samsung Haven has built-in, digitally recorded human speech in a clear female voice that speaks everything on the phone's display, including caller ID and menu items; it also echoes keypad presses. Previous Samsung models, such as the a640, did not allow for access to all of the phone's features, creating partial accessibility, so this model is a step forward for Samsung in the accessibility arena.

By default, when the phone is turned on for the first time, the voice output is not activated and there is no accessible method to turn on the speech. When first obtaining the Haven phone, a sales representative or sighted helper will need to go into the menu and activate speech. Following this activation, the voice will remain on and will not need to be reactivated.

You cannot adjust the pitch or rate of the speech as you can when using third-party screen-access software, Talks, or Mobile Speak. Yet, the volume of the built-in speech can be increased or decreased using the volume rocker on the left side of the phone. One somewhat frustrating aspect was the fact that the speech was lagging in its response. For example, when dialing a number on the numeric keypad, we had to make the key presses at a moderate pace or we risked pressing too quickly for the speaker to announce individual numbers. Or, when making a menu selection, there would be a slight delay after we had pressed the OK button for the submenu title to be announced.

Display Quality

The Haven has two visual displays, a small external display used when the phone is closed and a larger internal display used for menu navigation and advanced features. Both displays are bright, full color, and high contrast, which is a welcome change from many flip phones that use cheap, hard-to-read monochrome displays on the outside. Additionally, the clock on the external display uses a 24-point font, making it one of the easiest-to-read external displays of any cell phone AFB TECH has evaluated.

In the AFB TECH Optics Lab, we can measure the amount of contrast provided by visual displays. We found that the contrast for the Haven ranged from 88 to 95 percent depending on the selected color theme, which makes it one of the highest-contrast displays of any device we have examined--not just cell phones. Although the actual size of the main display, 1.4 by 1.8 inches, is below average for display size on these types of phones, and much smaller than you would find on a smartphone-type device, the information on the display is organized well and is large enough to be useful to some people with low vision. The Haven, unlike many similar phones, does not try to fit a lot of information on the screen all at once, which makes for a much friendlier user interface.

Menu Navigation

The Haven features a simple menu interface that is easy to use and fully accessible. You can access the menu from the home screen by pressing the left soft key, and the Haven will announce the first menu item. You can scroll down the list and it will speak every item. An item is selected by using the OK key, which will lead you to another screen, where the submenu options will be announced.

This is unique to the Haven as no other Samsung model reads aloud any submenus. Besides the common menu options, such as call log, messaging, and ring tone, there are unique items, such as the tip calculator and world clock.

All of the menus use high-contrast text; there are no confusing images or icons in any of the menu screens. All the menus and features on the phone use a 14-point sans-serif font, which is a definite improvement over most cell phones on the market.

By default, the phone uses a white-on-dark-blue color scheme for the menus, with selected items highlighted in black on gold. This color scheme can be changed under phone settings; users have the choice of this default color setting, named "Golden Blue," or they can switch to a simple black-on-white color scheme (selected items highlighted in white-on-blue) named "Simple Blue." Both options offer high contrast, and users can also choose between normal and reverse polarity.

Caller ID

When receiving an incoming call, the Haven will either speak the phone number or the person's name if it is saved in the phone book. The Haven will only announce the information once, so if you miss it this one time, you have missed it completely.

Text Messaging

We wanted to create a specific section about text messaging as the Haven is fairly unique in that it allows you to send and receive text messages, whereas many phones with off-the-shelf speech do not allow for this feature.

When a text message comes in, there is a spoken announcement. When the message is opened, the Haven will speak who it is from, the date/time received, and the complete body of the text. If you want to hear the body of the text again, be aware that you can only reread it character by character and do not have the sorts of reading options found in third-party cell phone screen-access software, such as reading line by line or the say-all command.

Voice Commands

Another way to use the phone, instead of listening to the built-in speech, is to use the voice command feature. The accessibility section of the Verizon website provides in-depth information on the voice command as many of Verizon's phones have this feature. The voice command feature is activated by pressing the voice command key and then saying a command or by using arrow keys to scroll through the choices, which are the following:

Call: You can call a person in your phonebook or your voicemail.

Send text: You can send a text message to a person whose number is entered in the phone book.

Check: You can check your voicemail or the time, signal strength, battery status, volume level, and your account balance.

Pricing Plans

The Haven is available for purchase through Verizon with the option of three different pricing plans. The Haven can be purchased without a long-term contract for $169.99 plus the cost of month-to-month coverage. The cost of the phone can be reduced by agreeing to either a one- or two-year contract. With a one-year contract, the phone costs $109.99, and with a two-year contract, its cost drops to $39.99. If you are interested in a long-term contract, the Haven offers an affordable solution, but if you would rather purchase coverage on a month-to-month basis, the Haven may become quite expensive.

The Bottom Line

The Haven succeeds in offering a simple, lower-cost accessible solution for anyone looking for a basic cell phone. The Haven is a giant step forward regarding usability, allowing for total access to the phone's features. Only slight improvements could make it better.

From surveys AFB TECH has conducted in the past, such as the "Cell Phone Accessibility Survey" administered in 2008, we have learned that the majority of participants want a low-cost clamshell or flip-style phone that allows for text messaging, has an easy-to-feel keypad, and built-in speech output. The Haven definitely fits this description as it has all of these features.

If you want to use your cell phone to check e-mail, browse the Internet, or play MP3s, the Haven may not be for you, as it lacks these features. Those who want more advanced features may want to purchase an accessible smartphone, such as the iPhone. Or, they may choose to purchase third-party software, such as Talks or Mobile Speak, for their Windows Mobile or Symbian smartphone. However, anyone who is interested in a basic, easy-to-use, accessible, off-the-shelf cell phone should consider the Haven from Verizon.

Resources

Verizon's "accessibility" website offers text manuals for many of their phones (including the Haven), information on how to order your phone bill or user manual in braille or large print, contact information for the Customer Service Center for Persons with Disabilities, and a summary of voice commands.

The Mystic Place blog has a podcast demonstration of the Haven, along with an index of all of the podcast segments.


Previous Article | Next Article | Table of Contents

Copyright ? 2010 American Foundation for the Blind. All rights reserved. AccessWorld is a trademark of the American Foundation for the Blind.

	
	Printer-Friendly Format
	E-mail to a Friend
 
Back Issues
Search AccessWorld
AccessWorld Alerts Signup
For Advertisers
Contact AccessWorld
 
Related Links
Technology
AccessWorld Appliance Accessibility Guide
Product Search
AFB Consulting
 

Advertising









 
End of advertising



www.afb.org | Change Colors and More | Contact Us | Site Map | 
Site Search     
About AFB | Press Room | Bookstore | Donate | Policy Statement 
Please direct your comments and suggestions to accessworld at afb.net 
Copyright ? 2010 American Foundation for the Blind. All rights reserved.






From grtdane at internode.on.net  Wed Nov 10 21:59:37 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:59:37 +1100
Subject: New ccrane EP analogue radio
Message-ID: <3B6C2BC5-2F98-47FC-A2AF-A2415972BDA5@internode.on.net>

This is exactly what I've been looking for, I have the earlier versions of this radio but I've never much liked the fact that they're digital, the new version is analogue and its less than half the price plus it also sports an antenna tuner for the AM band, only seen one portable in my time which contained an antenna tuner and that is the Sony ICF-2001 communications receiver.

Also features narrow/wide band selection for AM band and full external antenna support, read more below.

http://www.ccrane.com/search/index.aspx?cof=FORID:11&cx=003051540468247577119:oqcbxc9vxje&q=ep radio


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 10 23:24:58 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:24:58 -0600
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
In-Reply-To: <C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
References: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <D5FBAB64-5EE2-4523-84A9-987BC98FB3FE@softcon.com>


On Nov 10, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Mountains out of molehills yet again <smile>.
>
> On 11/11/2010, at 7:09 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps I'm being a little paranoid but I have encountered one  
>> situation in the not too distant past where a company's so-called  
>> download manager was also a piece of spyware which zipped up the  
>> user's registry files and uploaded them to that company.

Umm, dane, if this sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you're a  
whole lot more free with your personal information than I'd ever be.   
Just for kicks, would you like to lend me your bank account number,  
and perhaps a card or two then?
It's nothing short of criminal when companies take advantage of  
people's trust to pull junk like this.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 00:09:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:09:27 -0800
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
In-Reply-To: <D5FBAB64-5EE2-4523-84A9-987BC98FB3FE@softcon.com>
References: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
	<D5FBAB64-5EE2-4523-84A9-987BC98FB3FE@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <57962621-A330-4421-85B9-2CE4234FD572@gmail.com>

Yeah i'vw seen other companies do this too. it drives me nuts. I just want the darned installer! Did yu try searching or getting it at www.download.com?

Good luck.

S
On Nov 10, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> 
> On Nov 10, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Mountains out of molehills yet again <smile>.
>> 
>> On 11/11/2010, at 7:09 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perhaps I'm being a little paranoid but I have encountered one situation in the not too distant past where a company's so-called download manager was also a piece of spyware which zipped up the user's registry files and uploaded them to that company.
> 
> Umm, dane, if this sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you're a whole lot more free with your personal information than I'd ever be.  Just for kicks, would you like to lend me your bank account number, and perhaps a card or two then?
> It's nothing short of criminal when companies take advantage of people's trust to pull junk like this.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 00:10:44 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:10:44 -0800
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>

> I don't remember vista but 7 to me seem a bit more stable.Oh and the classic control panel is now gone for good to my knowledge.

S
On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello
> 
> Well, I can only hope it is more stable and reliable.  Windows 7, to me at least, is Vista revisited.  The interface of Windows 7 looks almost the same to me as Vista did.
> 
> As Stevie Wonder said back in 2003, "So What the fuss?"  All the MS people are raving about 7 so can somebody tell me please, what is so special about it that makes is so "cool", as certain people have told me it is?
> 
> It looks to me like Vista as I've already said, and I don't know about others but GW Micro has really gone to town with their implementation of MSAA  within the Windows interface itself.
> 
> I hope it's backwards compatible, regarding certain pieces of software I used to use.  May as well install them and see what happens.  I'm astounded though at just how much hard disk space the operating system itself requires.  30GB minimum of hard drive space, and that's just to install the thing.  Apparently they're saying that 2GB is the minimum memory capacity recommended for 7.  Microsoft have not lost their ability to produce an extremely resource-hungry operating system and, it seems, I can sum up Windows 7 using either one of two sentences, each containing just four little words ... "More Of The Same", or ... "Much Of A Muchness".
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From moopiecurran at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 00:34:57 2010
From: moopiecurran at gmail.com (Courtney Curran)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:34:57 -0500
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C3A2458-1CA8-45FC-B9CA-3E31FFE4EC4F@gmail.com>

Hi,
What's there in place of that control panel, I never could get used to that thing.
Courtney

On Nov 10, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

>> I don't remember vista but 7 to me seem a bit more stable.Oh and the classic control panel is now gone for good to my knowledge.
> 
> S
> On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello
>> 
>> Well, I can only hope it is more stable and reliable.  Windows 7, to me at least, is Vista revisited.  The interface of Windows 7 looks almost the same to me as Vista did.
>> 
>> As Stevie Wonder said back in 2003, "So What the fuss?"  All the MS people are raving about 7 so can somebody tell me please, what is so special about it that makes is so "cool", as certain people have told me it is?
>> 
>> It looks to me like Vista as I've already said, and I don't know about others but GW Micro has really gone to town with their implementation of MSAA  within the Windows interface itself.
>> 
>> I hope it's backwards compatible, regarding certain pieces of software I used to use.  May as well install them and see what happens.  I'm astounded though at just how much hard disk space the operating system itself requires.  30GB minimum of hard drive space, and that's just to install the thing.  Apparently they're saying that 2GB is the minimum memory capacity recommended for 7.  Microsoft have not lost their ability to produce an extremely resource-hungry operating system and, it seems, I can sum up Windows 7 using either one of two sentences, each containing just four little words ... "More Of The Same", or ... "Much Of A Muchness".
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 17:50:56 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:50:56 -0800
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <1C3A2458-1CA8-45FC-B9CA-3E31FFE4EC4F@gmail.com>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
	<1C3A2458-1CA8-45FC-B9CA-3E31FFE4EC4F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC3521C8-0BCA-4266-A111-48B80F635FF2@gmail.com>

Thank of it like the start menu on steroids. but the good thing is you can search for  the thing you want in there and it will bring up a dialogue with everything you want, usually.

s
On Nov 10, 2010, at 4:34 PM, Courtney Curran wrote:

> Hi,
> What's there in place of that control panel, I never could get used to that thing.
> Courtney
> 
> On Nov 10, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>>> I don't remember vista but 7 to me seem a bit more stable.Oh and the classic control panel is now gone for good to my knowledge.
>> 
>> S
>> On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello
>>> 
>>> Well, I can only hope it is more stable and reliable.  Windows 7, to me at least, is Vista revisited.  The interface of Windows 7 looks almost the same to me as Vista did.
>>> 
>>> As Stevie Wonder said back in 2003, "So What the fuss?"  All the MS people are raving about 7 so can somebody tell me please, what is so special about it that makes is so "cool", as certain people have told me it is?
>>> 
>>> It looks to me like Vista as I've already said, and I don't know about others but GW Micro has really gone to town with their implementation of MSAA  within the Windows interface itself.
>>> 
>>> I hope it's backwards compatible, regarding certain pieces of software I used to use.  May as well install them and see what happens.  I'm astounded though at just how much hard disk space the operating system itself requires.  30GB minimum of hard drive space, and that's just to install the thing.  Apparently they're saying that 2GB is the minimum memory capacity recommended for 7.  Microsoft have not lost their ability to produce an extremely resource-hungry operating system and, it seems, I can sum up Windows 7 using either one of two sentences, each containing just four little words ... "More Of The Same", or ... "Much Of A Muchness".
>>> 
>>> Gordon
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 00:23:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:23:14 -0800
Subject: Boxee Box now shipping, Netflix and Hulu Plus coming soon: 
Message-ID: <F3E0E11E-97BE-4ACE-8808-7412A3FB5A23@gmail.com>

Will this cause another block by fox  and other networks? Will this take off in the consumer market? Read more:  http://arst.ch/n5v

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 12 01:26:53 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:26:53 +0000
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
In-Reply-To: <C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
References: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <4F9A3764-8A01-4E5F-8E20-A24FD608DC96@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Dane

Your attitude is so short-sighted at times, it's unbelievable.  I won't bother trying to explain why this is a problem since you're obviously determined to continually ridicule others.

Gordon

On 10 Nov 2010, at 20:52, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Mountains out of molehills yet again <smile>.
> 
> Given the fact that Diskeeper is a piece of Windows software then this doesn't worry me at all and I can't see how it would worry anyone else, if it were a Mac piece of software then yep! I'd be dead right worried if the downloader worked only with Windows <smile>.
> 
> Now I could be wrong here but I think Diskeeper use the custom downloader idea as part of the anti piracy thing they have running.
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 12 01:29:24 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:29:24 +0000
Subject: Diskeeper Corporation moving towards the common trend
In-Reply-To: <57962621-A330-4421-85B9-2CE4234FD572@gmail.com>
References: <264A00D7-9894-4770-848F-EDA40AE44927@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<C826219E-A92A-4ABA-9FF5-A17ED97A7ECB@internode.on.net>
	<D5FBAB64-5EE2-4523-84A9-987BC98FB3FE@softcon.com>
	<57962621-A330-4421-85B9-2CE4234FD572@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40689E31-2874-422B-869A-11B1FDDCCCEF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

It's not there, since this is a commercial application.  But thanks anyway.

Gordon

On 11 Nov 2010, at 00:09, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Yeah i'vw seen other companies do this too. it drives me nuts. I just want the darned installer! Did yu try searching or getting it at www.download.com?


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 12 01:31:46 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:31:46 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A646CC99-6A6F-4040-9382-51EB65A0AF14@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

Yes, the classic everything is gone for good and the interface is very very much like Vista.  The only really good thing is that they have removed that damned account access control.

Gordon

On 11 Nov 2010, at 00:10, Sarah Alawami wrote:

>> I don't remember vista but 7 to me seem a bit more stable.Oh and the classic control panel is now gone for good to my knowledge.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 02:13:13 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:13:13 -0800
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <A646CC99-6A6F-4040-9382-51EB65A0AF14@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
	<A646CC99-6A6F-4040-9382-51EB65A0AF14@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CDD933F-DC14-4149-82CA-AAAF0F995EF3@gmail.com>

Actually UAC or user account control is still there but it is a bit less intrusive in my opinion and you can turn that off.

Take care.

S
On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Sarah
> 
> Yes, the classic everything is gone for good and the interface is very very much like Vista.  The only really good thing is that they have removed that damned account access control.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 11 Nov 2010, at 00:10, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>>> I don't remember vista but 7 to me seem a bit more stable.Oh and the classic control panel is now gone for good to my knowledge.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 02:29:15 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:29:15 -0800
Subject: Yahoo plans 10 percent layoff in product unit 
Message-ID: <EC0C1478-8E47-4AC3-AC39-C3011D6FD240@gmail.com>

Will yahoo die? what will happen once some of there stuff are outsourced? read more: http://bit.ly/aRaXbR

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 02:32:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:32:58 -0800
Subject: Google locking Facebook out of Gmail: Is this fair for google to not
	allow Facebook contacts? Can google not allow facebook to
	access its gmail contacts? read more: http://bit.ly/a5WNqv
Message-ID: <CE759CDE-D537-4F4C-B6DA-420E8B480A21@gmail.com>

Is this fair for google to not allow Facebook contacts? Can google not allow facebook to access its gmail contacts?  read more:  http://bit.ly/a5WNqv

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 12 05:24:36 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 05:24:36 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 puts me in mind of ...!
In-Reply-To: <3CDD933F-DC14-4149-82CA-AAAF0F995EF3@gmail.com>
References: <85EC1D09-3850-4E60-A54B-59C430B42BDC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<DF1DB2EB-F855-4CD3-9ED4-83AD6B4083FF@gmail.com>
	<A646CC99-6A6F-4040-9382-51EB65A0AF14@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<3CDD933F-DC14-4149-82CA-AAAF0F995EF3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F2F00BC8-5A37-40BE-9660-AB3ACC24AE3C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

Really, well that's interesting.  I'll have to have another look at that.  I think they've toned it down then but yes, now I think about it, maybe that explains the persistent autoplay messages and things.  We have only had this install a couple of days so I haven't really really delved deep inside it yet.

Vista was a real pain though in that reguard and I don't honestly know anybody who used or uses that thing who did not or does not find it a pain in the proverbial.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 12 17:47:48 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:47:48 +0000
Subject: BluRay/CD/DVD Media copy/Create and other highlights under Windows
	... What's the score?
Message-ID: <07949894-A9CC-4828-8E1A-6768D718867C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Subject line says it all.  What is the accessible yet most functional standard these days?  Since we have to use Windows we have decided that we may as well use a dual boot system to its fullest on both sides.

And, while I'm on, apart from RollBack Pro RX, Diskeeper Pro Premier, Eset Smart Security 4, Thunderbird, FireFox, Video Re-Do, Slingbox, ISO Magic, Clipmate, NoteTAb Pro and, just possibly if we decide it's worth while, 1Passwored, what would anybody consider to be essential Windows applications these days?  O, sorry, I almost forgot about Duxbery 10.1, Dolphin Publisher, Plextalk Publisher, Winamp Pro, possibly if it still works, my old copy of Sound Forge 9 and Exact Audio Copy.  Maybe we'll also install iTunes on the darker side, see what it's like.  But MS Office and OpenOffice, definitely not!

Gordon


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Nov 12 21:35:10 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:35:10 -0600
Subject: BluRay/CD/DVD Media copy/Create and other highlights under
	Windows ... What's the score?
In-Reply-To: <07949894-A9CC-4828-8E1A-6768D718867C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <07949894-A9CC-4828-8E1A-6768D718867C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A88B48E8-BE77-4735-AA1F-3BAB51209594@softcon.com>

I used to use one called record now from stomp soft .  It was so easy  
to use, and never burned a coaster for me, I was always puzzled why  
folks liked that impossible to use piece of junk called nero, when so  
much better stuff existed, but such is life.  I don't know if it's  
still sold, but if it is, you may be well served to hunt down a copy.

One program that may help you is cd rom emulator from paragon  
software.  It allows you to mount iso images as real cds, and also to  
burn said images, you can build them with the software as well, so it  
may be a solution, even though it's not specifically a burning  
program, but just one that has burning capabilities.
The cd rom emulator (version 3.0) can be found at:
http://www.paragon-software.com/home/cde-personal/
There's a professional version as well with additional features, but  
the personal version should do if you don't need some of the advanced  
features.
There's other software that may be of use as well, it's all on the  
main page.  Things like paragon partition manager, backup and  
recovery, virtualization manager, and so on.  Lots of good stuff there.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 23:04:54 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:04:54 -0800
Subject: Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches theMind
Message-ID: <F9D12B8E-F73B-4D03-AA23-11C5205563BD@gmail.com>

I was there to hear this speech in person and I got a chance to try some of the technology and I have to say only this. Wow!


The Interface that Touches the Mind:
					Advancing Beyond Autonomous Vehicles
							   by Dennis Hong

On Thursday afternoon, July 8, 2010, Dr. Dennis Hong,
director of the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory at the Virginia
Polytechnic Institute, addressed the convention. He is leading the group 
of Virginia Tech engineering students who are working with the NFB to 
develop the blind-drivable car. Here is what Dr. Hong said:

	  Driving-sighted people like me, we do it every day, and we take it

for granted. When you need to go to the grocery store, you just get in your

car and start driving. You drive to school, pick up your dearly loved 
children, and then take them to soccer practice. You hit the open road and
enjoy a
road trip with your friends and family with freedom and joy. Well, in
modern society driving is really a necessity. It takes you from point A 
to point B. It's a means of getting you to your destination whenever and
wherever that may be. At the same time driving is fun and exciting. Some
people even consider it an expression of power. However, most important,
driving is really about freedom. Driving is really about independence.
Unfortunately, however, not everyone has the privilege of driving, mostly
because of physical challenges, blindness being one of the reasons
affecting people the most.
 We want to change this. We want to give the blind the ability to
drive. So in 2007 Virginia Tech accepted a challenge proposed by the
National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute to develop a car that
can be driven by the blind safely and independently. It was called the
Blind Driver Challenge. As far as I know, we are the only group in the
nation that has accepted this call. A lot of people thought we were 
crazy.
Some people still do, and, as a matter of fact, to be honest, half the 
time I actually think we are crazy myself.
But the real story behind the challenge goes like this. At the time
when NFB announced the Blind Driver Challenge, we already had a very 
active research program in autonomous vehicles at Virginia Tech. For
example, we
won third place at the DARPA Urban Challenge and won a 
half-million-dollar
award. This competition was about developing a fully autonomous vehicle
that can maneuver a sixty-mile course in the urban environment. The 
vehicle had to obey all the California traffic laws, merge into moving
traffic,
navigate traffic circles, negotiate intersections, avoid a variety of 
free-standing obstacles, and even park itself--all with no human
intervention.
So we thought we could tackle the challenge proposed by the NFB. We had
already successfully developed an autonomous vehicle, so we thought, "How
hard could it be to develop a car for the blind?" Well, we couldn't have
been more wrong. We quickly realized that what the NFB wanted was not a
vehicle that could drive a blind person around, but rather a vehicle that
a blind person could actually operate by making active decisions.
Realizing this, we had to start from scratch; we had to go back to 
the drawing board and rethink how we could pull it off. Sometimes we
doubted
whether it was even possible, but, when we realized the importance of 
this mission for the blind community and the huge positive impact it could 
have on society, we understood that the potential for the technologies
we'll 
be developing along the way would have more far-reaching impact than just
driving. So in 2008, with thirteen very talented and hard-working, smart
undergraduate students and only $3,000 in funding, we started developing
our first vehicle for the blind.
Let me tell you a story. I still remember when the folks from the 
NFB first visited my lab, the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa)
at
Virginia Tech, and the stupid mistakes and awkward situations I created 
due to lack of experience and understanding of blindness. At the time I did

not know anyone personally who was blind, and I do not have any blind
members
of my family, so I had all those stereotypes in my head about blind 
people and erroneous assumptions about blindness.
Though we are good friends now, I have to confess that I felt very
uncomfortable when I first met Mark Riccobono, the executive director of
the NFB Jernigan Institute. He was the very first blind person that I had
a true conversation and interaction with. When he first visited our lab a 
few years ago, actually I was not at all prepared. I didn't know what to do.

We have so many visitors through our lab from high-profile sponsors to K-12
students, so we are always ready and prepared to greet visitors and give
tours. However, that day, when Mark came to our lab in the basement of
Randolph Hall, he was sharply dressed in a suit and tie as usual. First I
tried to grab his arm to guide him. I was giving a tour of our 
laboratory,
and I constantly said, "As you can see," then I quickly remembered and
thought to myself, "Ahho, I just said, `As you can see' to this blind 
man," which then created this awkward pause. I know better now. Then in the
afternoon I remembered the movie, Daredevil, with Ben Affleck, this 
heroic blind guy. I wanted to be polite and actually brushed my teeth twice

after lunch, remembering from the movie that blind people have a
heightened,
almost super-hero-like ability to smell. You might laugh, but that was 
how I thought of the blind at the time. You would be surprised how many 
people in our society still think the way I did.
Then, as I and my students constantly met with the folks at the NFB
Jernigan Institute, visiting the NFB headquarters in Baltimore overnight,
interacting with students from schools for the blind, and working 
together with blind engineers, we started to learn more about all the
misunderstandings about blindness. One of the biggest among them is the
ability of the blind to perform at jobs. I have learned and personally
witnessed that, contrary to general belief, there are really very few 
jobs that blind people cannot do well. Throughout my work on this project
I've
been talking and emailing back and forth with blind people from all over
the world and was surprised at the jobs these people have. They range 
from office managers, farmers, IT specialists to auto mechanics. Some ride
horses as a hobby, and I even talked to a hobbyist who is a drag racer.
Gradually I understood that with just a little technology the blind can
really do almost anything that a sighted person can do.
We need for the rest of society to understand this, and what better
way to deliver this message to society than for a blind person to drive a
car? At the same time, if this vehicle becomes a reality, which it will,
and is available to the general public, the impact on the blind would be
huge, opening even more doors to new jobs by providing a safe, independent
>> means of transportation.
What is this car for the blind? How does it work? We don't have a 
lot of time, and the vehicle is very complicated, so I will give you a very
quick overview of how it works. There are three parts to the system: part
1, perception; part 2, computation; and part 3, nonvisual user 
interfaces.
So in the first stage, perception, this vehicle has different kinds of
sensors all around it, from laser range-finder sensors to cameras. The
laser range-finder sensor shoots out a laser, and, if there is an object 
in front of it, it bounces back, and a computer measures the time of
flight.
So, if you know the speed of light, which you do, then you can measure 
the distance of objects. The laser shoots around, scans the environment,
and
makes a map around the vehicle. The camera system looks all around the
vehicle by use of some very sophisticated computer vision algorithms, to
identify and classify objects so that the vehicle knows, oh, a tree is 
over there; a rock is over here. These are the lanes. A vehicle is to the 
left, and it's going at such-and-such speed and direction.
The second step is computation. This is a vast amount of data from 
the sensors, and that sensory information is fed into the computer, and the
computer tries to generate a world model. This is essentially a map 
around the vehicle that the computer can understand. Now the challenge is
the
third stage--nonvisual user interfaces. How do we move or channel these
ast amounts of real-time information to a person driving the vehicle
without using vision? This is a challenge, so during the past three or 
four years we've been working on many, many different types of nonvisual
interfaces. I'm sure you've probably heard some about the vibrating vest,
the AirPix device, and the glove. By the way, some of my students were
here. They left yesterday, but they brought some of the interfaces and 
did a demonstration. Did anybody have a chance to play with those?
[applause]
We also brought the vehicle that will eventually become the next 
generation
Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. It is a Ford hybrid Escape, very 
exciting.
One thing I want to point out is a more philosophical approach: what
really is this Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? You know, we already have 
a fully autonomous vehicle. Is the challenge just to put a blind person in
it? Is that the Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? No. We want people 
actually to drive the vehicle, so we have two types of interfaces. One is
called 
the instructional cue interface. The other is the informational cue 
interface.
Let me explain a little more, because this is a rather important concept.
The instructional user interface includes the drive grip, which is like a
glove, that has five ring motors on the knuckles and tells you how to 
turn the steering wheel. With this device the computer makes the decision: 
turn right, turn left, stop, go, push on the brake. So this information or
instruction is transmitted to the driver through these interfaces. We 
call this the "backseat driver problem." This is not really driving. You're
driving, but you are really following orders from a computer. You can 
call that a "Blind Driver Challenge" vehicle, but it is not our vision.
We started from there. Now we are moving towards the information cue
devices. The AirPix is a good example. AirPix is a small tablet-like 
device that has holes on it and compressed air comes out and forms an image
of 
the map around the vehicle. You put your hand over it and feel, "Oh these
are
the roads. That's a tree over there; there is a moving vehicle to my
right." The computer provides information about the vehicle so that it is
you, the driver, who make active decisions. That is the concept.
We started with instruction cues and are moving toward information
cues, and the future is great, and it's looking good. Let me give you a
brief timeline. In 2008 we started a feasibility study. We started with
this low-cost dune buggy that we bought on eBay for $2,000. We only had
$3,000, so we used two-thirds of it. Then we got a bunch of donations of
equipment from companies, and then we generated these first-generation
interfaces, which included vibrating chairs and vibrating vests, a click-
wheel interface, and other things.
 In 2009, last year, we had our first successful test run in early
summer, and, as Mark Riccobono mentioned, we brought the vehicle to the
Youth Slam event at the University of Maryland and had two hundred 
students from all over the nation who came. Some of them had the chance to
drive 
it, and the experience was tremendous. When I think of it, I get tears in
my
eyes.
 This year we are developing the next-generation vehicle. The red
buggy demonstration that we had last year was really a feasibility
experiment; it was run in a parking lot. The lanes were defined by red
traffic cones. It was a very controlled environment, but now the next-
generation vehicle is going to be running on real roads. This is a real
car, and this is going to be the real Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. I 
am very excited about this.
	  As you have probably heard, this has been all over the news, even
internationally. It has been on the cover of several magazines, on TV 
news, everywhere. I am literally getting hundreds and hundreds of emails,
letters, and phone calls from people all over the world. Most of them are
positive: "Dr. Hong, this is great. Thanks for doing this." Some of them
give us advice and feedback. But from time to time this is a 
controversial
project, and I do get letters, most of them from sighted people, saying,
"Dr. Hong, are you out of your mind? We already have teenagers texting
while driving, which is dangerous. What do you think you are doing 
putting blind people on the road?" To be honest with you, it is rather a
valid
concern, so this is good news, bad news, good news, bad news, but I get a
lot of questions from the community saying, "When can I buy this vehicle.
When can I drive the vehicle?" Well you will be able to drive the vehicle
soon in a test track, in a controlled situation. When will you be able to
buy it? That's the bad news. This vehicle will not be a real product for
the general consumer until it's proven 100 percent safe, at least as safe
as a regular vehicle today. The good news is that I truly believe it can 
be done. [applause]
Now again, the bad news is that, aside from these technical
difficulties, a hurdle which we really can tackle, there are many, many
other issues. How is a driver's license going to be issued? How is
insurance going to cover this? The social acceptance. A lot of issues 
need to be addressed; nonetheless, this is a very exciting project. You
will
actually have a chance to drive this vehicle. January 29 at the Daytona
International Raceway, we will have the first sneak peek, public
demonstration, and next year at the national convention we will have the
full demonstration and it's very, very exciting.
 When I talk to my students who work on this project, I always ask
them, how many chances in your lifetime do you have an opportunity to
change the world? This is actually that moment, so we are the Virginia 
Tech Blind Driver Challenge Team, and we expect to see spectacular things 
coming in the next few years. .
							  

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Nov 13 23:27:42 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 23:27:42 +0000
Subject: BluRay/CD/DVD Media copy/Create and other highlights under
	Windows ... What's the score?
In-Reply-To: <A88B48E8-BE77-4735-AA1F-3BAB51209594@softcon.com>
References: <07949894-A9CC-4828-8E1A-6768D718867C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A88B48E8-BE77-4735-AA1F-3BAB51209594@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D314E789-C17F-4868-B6EE-CD78FEC8D610@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Travis

Thanks for this.  No, we definitely won't be going the Nero route.  Nero is shocking  and bloated, unfortunately.  We don't need all that media manager crud as most of this stuff will be done on Mac anyway.  It's just as a convenience.  Thanks, I will check out Paragon.

Gordon

On 12 Nov 2010, at 21:35, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I used to use one called record now from stomp soft .  It was so easy to use, and never burned a coaster for me, I was always puzzled why folks liked that impossible to use piece of junk called nero, when so much better stuff existed, but such is life.  I don't know if it's still sold, but if it is, you may be well served to hunt down a copy.
> 
> One program that may help you is cd rom emulator from paragon software.  It allows you to mount iso images as real cds, and also to burn said images, you can build them with the software as well, so it may be a solution, even though it's not specifically a burning program, but just one that has burning capabilities.
> The cd rom emulator (version 3.0) can be found at:
> http://www.paragon-software.com/home/cde-personal/
> There's a professional version as well with additional features, but the personal version should do if you don't need some of the advanced features.
> There's other software that may be of use as well, it's all on the main page.  Things like paragon partition manager, backup and recovery, virtualization manager, and so on.  Lots of good stuff there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 14 03:19:30 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 03:19:30 +0000
Subject: iTunes for Windows
Message-ID: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?

The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.

When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.

Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.

Gordo



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 03:31:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:31:08 -0800
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>

I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.

Take care.

S
On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
> 
> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
> 
> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
> 
> Gordo
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 14 04:08:33 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 04:08:33 +0000
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah & all

I have no App key, as it's a small portable keyboard.  Shuft+F10 doesn't seem to work any longer.  What, if anything, iis the substitute?

I should explain more fully maybe.  I'm running 7 in a Boot Camp partition but it's native Windows, of course.  Running on a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM and 2.56 GHZ CPU.  Windows is, of course, very very fast on this system.  But back to the problem I can't quite figure out how you open these properties boxes.

Gordon

On 14 Nov 2010, at 03:31, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.
> 
> Take care.
> 
> S
> On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hi all
>> 
>> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
>> 
>> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
>> 
>> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
>> 
>> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
>> 
>> Gordo
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 04:11:56 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:11:56 -0800
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
	<ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FF608275-14CE-400C-9B81-AE1D83B5CEB8@gmail.com>

Ok. in bootcamp ctrl panel set the f1 to 12 keys to do there normal behavior. This is in the keyboard tab. the ctrl panel can be found in the system tray. then try the shft f10.

Take care.
On Nov 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Sarah & all
> 
> I have no App key, as it's a small portable keyboard.  Shuft+F10 doesn't seem to work any longer.  What, if anything, iis the substitute?
> 
> I should explain more fully maybe.  I'm running 7 in a Boot Camp partition but it's native Windows, of course.  Running on a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM and 2.56 GHZ CPU.  Windows is, of course, very very fast on this system.  But back to the problem I can't quite figure out how you open these properties boxes.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 14 Nov 2010, at 03:31, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.
>> 
>> Take care.
>> 
>> S
>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all
>>> 
>>> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
>>> 
>>> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
>>> 
>>> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
>>> 
>>> Gordo
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 14 05:49:21 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 05:49:21 +0000
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <FF608275-14CE-400C-9B81-AE1D83B5CEB8@gmail.com>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
	<ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<FF608275-14CE-400C-9B81-AE1D83B5CEB8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4311104-6E16-4B59-9C24-A0745355BB66@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

Just out of interest, are you actually running 7?  I wonder which version of Boot Camp you're running.  Maybe I need to update to 3.1 because 7 isn't showing it, or much of anything else actually, in the system tray.

I'd better update I think.  What i do like is the ability to access the Mac OS drives on our system which, I guess, is Boot Camp at work.  I think also I need to find that Mac NTFS utility because, of course, I can't write to the BC partition.

Again just out of interest, if anybody has done this, what's the latest business regarding Windows partition backups?  I thought about trying Travis's solution that he gave us on Mac Access.  But the problem is that there is, as he said, no compression and no error checking.  I'm sure I've seen something somewhere which does a sector level backup of an entire hard drive.

But first I need to resole these 7 issue we are having.  I must say that, maybe iut's just me because I'm not used to it, but I don't much like the new Windows Vista/7 interface.  XP's was far more intuitive I think.

MSAA gone mad under 7 it seems.

Gordon


On 14 Nov 2010, at 04:11, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Ok. in bootcamp ctrl panel set the f1 to 12 keys to do there normal behavior. This is in the keyboard tab. the ctrl panel can be found in the system tray. then try the shft f10.
> 
> Take care.
> On Nov 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sarah & all
>> 
>> I have no App key, as it's a small portable keyboard.  Shuft+F10 doesn't seem to work any longer.  What, if anything, iis the substitute?
>> 
>> I should explain more fully maybe.  I'm running 7 in a Boot Camp partition but it's native Windows, of course.  Running on a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM and 2.56 GHZ CPU.  Windows is, of course, very very fast on this system.  But back to the problem I can't quite figure out how you open these properties boxes.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> On 14 Nov 2010, at 03:31, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.
>>> 
>>> Take care.
>>> 
>>> S
>>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi all
>>>> 
>>>> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
>>>> 
>>>> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
>>>> 
>>>> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
>>>> 
>>>> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
>>>> 
>>>> Gordo
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 06:19:20 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:19:20 -0800
Subject: Google engineer: Raise leaker exposed us to mugging 
Message-ID: <0C27EB90-1682-43B7-8CCC-7E43B733FC0B@gmail.com>

Will there be any repercussions form this? read more: http://bit.ly/bKZmkO

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 06:24:26 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:24:26 -0800
Subject: Dear Foursquare, Gowalla: Please Let?s Stop Pretending This Is Fun
Message-ID: <F44CC569-F89F-43F4-83F9-F678B85D331E@gmail.com>

Will Facebook take over with location based checkins? Will four square do more then it does now? Read more:  http://tcrn.ch/cLjaho

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 06:27:55 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:27:55 -0800
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <D4311104-6E16-4B59-9C24-A0745355BB66@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
	<ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<FF608275-14CE-400C-9B81-AE1D83B5CEB8@gmail.com>
	<D4311104-6E16-4B59-9C24-A0745355BB66@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BB867690-F63D-4366-B70E-288B08CCCDD9@gmail.com>

I'm using the latest bootcamp. try unhiding the system tray icons you might be able to see the bootcamp option there? As for your itunes question I don't use itunes on windows but hopefully someone can steer you in the right direction.

Good luck.
On Nov 13, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Sarah
> 
> Just out of interest, are you actually running 7?  I wonder which version of Boot Camp you're running.  Maybe I need to update to 3.1 because 7 isn't showing it, or much of anything else actually, in the system tray.
> 
> I'd better update I think.  What i do like is the ability to access the Mac OS drives on our system which, I guess, is Boot Camp at work.  I think also I need to find that Mac NTFS utility because, of course, I can't write to the BC partition.
> 
> Again just out of interest, if anybody has done this, what's the latest business regarding Windows partition backups?  I thought about trying Travis's solution that he gave us on Mac Access.  But the problem is that there is, as he said, no compression and no error checking.  I'm sure I've seen something somewhere which does a sector level backup of an entire hard drive.
> 
> But first I need to resole these 7 issue we are having.  I must say that, maybe iut's just me because I'm not used to it, but I don't much like the new Windows Vista/7 interface.  XP's was far more intuitive I think.
> 
> MSAA gone mad under 7 it seems.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 14 Nov 2010, at 04:11, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Ok. in bootcamp ctrl panel set the f1 to 12 keys to do there normal behavior. This is in the keyboard tab. the ctrl panel can be found in the system tray. then try the shft f10.
>> 
>> Take care.
>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Sarah & all
>>> 
>>> I have no App key, as it's a small portable keyboard.  Shuft+F10 doesn't seem to work any longer.  What, if anything, iis the substitute?
>>> 
>>> I should explain more fully maybe.  I'm running 7 in a Boot Camp partition but it's native Windows, of course.  Running on a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM and 2.56 GHZ CPU.  Windows is, of course, very very fast on this system.  But back to the problem I can't quite figure out how you open these properties boxes.
>>> 
>>> Gordon
>>> 
>>> On 14 Nov 2010, at 03:31, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.
>>>> 
>>>> Take care.
>>>> 
>>>> S
>>>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all
>>>>> 
>>>>> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
>>>>> 
>>>>> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gordo
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>>> 
>>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>>> 
>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 14 07:32:11 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 07:32:11 +0000
Subject: iTunes for Windows
In-Reply-To: <BB867690-F63D-4366-B70E-288B08CCCDD9@gmail.com>
References: <8C513E32-35C1-4823-B9F5-CBAB573C347F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<501B7A10-15FD-4F19-8659-34BBBA775C66@gmail.com>
	<ACD4ABE3-AA84-43CB-9FE4-62A7362E5F02@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<FF608275-14CE-400C-9B81-AE1D83B5CEB8@gmail.com>
	<D4311104-6E16-4B59-9C24-A0745355BB66@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<BB867690-F63D-4366-B70E-288B08CCCDD9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDE5BCC7-3388-4535-9A10-90DA9D601D9E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

I had no system tray icon whatsoever.  So what I ended up having to do was to run the Boot Camp application itself.  Then it plonked itself in he system tray and I was able to control it.

Still don't like the Windows 7 interface one little bit.  Which version of Windows are you using?

On a different note, I tried that stupid Diskeeper download mangler.  It did download the programme but it is asking me for a 29-digit license which I never received from them so I can't go any further.

I hate it when companies do this, make life so darn difficult for their customers.

Gordon

On 14 Nov 2010, at 06:27, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I'm using the latest bootcamp. try unhiding the system tray icons you might be able to see the bootcamp option there? As for your itunes question I don't use itunes on windows but hopefully someone can steer you in the right direction.
> 
> Good luck.
> On Nov 13, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sarah
>> 
>> Just out of interest, are you actually running 7?  I wonder which version of Boot Camp you're running.  Maybe I need to update to 3.1 because 7 isn't showing it, or much of anything else actually, in the system tray.
>> 
>> I'd better update I think.  What i do like is the ability to access the Mac OS drives on our system which, I guess, is Boot Camp at work.  I think also I need to find that Mac NTFS utility because, of course, I can't write to the BC partition.
>> 
>> Again just out of interest, if anybody has done this, what's the latest business regarding Windows partition backups?  I thought about trying Travis's solution that he gave us on Mac Access.  But the problem is that there is, as he said, no compression and no error checking.  I'm sure I've seen something somewhere which does a sector level backup of an entire hard drive.
>> 
>> But first I need to resole these 7 issue we are having.  I must say that, maybe iut's just me because I'm not used to it, but I don't much like the new Windows Vista/7 interface.  XP's was far more intuitive I think.
>> 
>> MSAA gone mad under 7 it seems.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> On 14 Nov 2010, at 04:11, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> Ok. in bootcamp ctrl panel set the f1 to 12 keys to do there normal behavior. This is in the keyboard tab. the ctrl panel can be found in the system tray. then try the shft f10.
>>> 
>>> Take care.
>>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Sarah & all
>>>> 
>>>> I have no App key, as it's a small portable keyboard.  Shuft+F10 doesn't seem to work any longer.  What, if anything, iis the substitute?
>>>> 
>>>> I should explain more fully maybe.  I'm running 7 in a Boot Camp partition but it's native Windows, of course.  Running on a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM and 2.56 GHZ CPU.  Windows is, of course, very very fast on this system.  But back to the problem I can't quite figure out how you open these properties boxes.
>>>> 
>>>> Gordon
>>>> 
>>>> On 14 Nov 2010, at 03:31, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I believe you can via the properties. hit yoru apps key with out anything selected and go to properties and adjust what's there. I believe also you need to change to windows classic. I'm drawing a blank on that theme.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Take care.
>>>>> 
>>>>> S
>>>>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Has anybody tried iTunes for Windows recently and, in particular, has anybody tried this under Windows 7?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The more I use Windows 7, the more it looks like Vista to me.  But I do have one question actually and this is something which irritates me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When 7 boots up, it says I'm at my desktop. But the only item which is visible is the recycle bin.  Is there a setting which I can change or something to have this stupid behaviour changed?  I'm pretty sure there are actually things in the desktop folder because if I open the folder by browsing to it, I can see other icons.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Any suggestions as to how to fix this?  7 Does seem more stable right out of the box than any previous version of Windows I've used.  But we haven't really put it through its paces yet.  Oh, and I wish to heck I could find out how to install the drivers for my Braille display.  There is no setup utility and the problem is I think I might have accidentally already put some drivers in to the wrong place.  But Windows 7 won't allow me to remove the device.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gordo
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>>> 
>>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>>> 
>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 14 07:33:07 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 07:33:07 +0000
Subject: System Restore
Message-ID: <A67621E7-D6C0-479E-8E39-A2F052CCC20F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi again all

Anybody know how you turn off System Restore in Windows 7?


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 22:46:52 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:46:52 -0800
Subject: Angry Birds Trojan: A nice example of the problems with the Android's
	Store approach to app safety.
Message-ID: <FC70D627-A7B0-482D-9172-50CD63AA1958@gmail.com>

Will google now develop apple's way of the app store? will this Trojan be taken out of the google app store? read more:  http://bit.ly/apIblq

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 22:49:54 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:49:54 -0800
Subject: Man loses $20 million after taking laptop for repair
Message-ID: <F6A554DD-B3D0-49D9-B5C1-23AC8DEF3D46@gmail.com>

Will this couple be charged? will they spend 25 years in jail? read more:  http://bit.ly/9dHshx

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 03:14:47 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:14:47 -0800
Subject: Creepy as hell - Microsoft can use the Kinect to watch you and then
	sell that info on to advertisers
Message-ID: <17163A81-D0D6-45C6-9BCA-C0465E961F01@gmail.com>

Will MS get away with this? Is this becoming the new wave of advertising or advertisements? Read more:  http://bit.ly/a19s52

From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Nov 15 14:44:13 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:44:13 -0500
Subject: Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches theMind
In-Reply-To: <F9D12B8E-F73B-4D03-AA23-11C5205563BD@gmail.com>
References: <F9D12B8E-F73B-4D03-AA23-11C5205563BD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101115094413.jyajq6nfs0oo8o88@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi Sarah,

Thanks so much for sending this speech about the blind driver 
challenge. I've heard a lot about it, and it sounds like there's 
progress being made. Maybe in our lifetime this will become a safe 
reality for everyone.

Mary




From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Nov 15 15:10:59 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:10:59 -0500
Subject: Penn State University, not an accessible place for students,
	faculty and staff
Message-ID: <20101115101059.uysbh2myuc4kgs0o@webmail.iu.edu>

If you are easily offended,don't read the comments to this article. 
However, the article is pretty well written. 
http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/penn-state-accused-of-discriminating-against-blind-students/28154?sid=pm&utm_source=pm&utm_medium=en

I have used the Angel courseware, and it really is not accessible. I 
hope Penn State switches to Blackboard or Sakai.

Mary



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 15 16:15:00 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:15:00 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 under Boot Camp 3.whatever-it-is!
Message-ID: <5B84C92D-7548-4A8F-A6DD-D5539F4E5497@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

Anybody else on here running Windows under BC?  I doubt this problem is restricted to 7, although it's a real issue.  The volume control in 7 is set, according to the interface, as high as it will go.  That said, it's possible there is more to the interface, and I'm simply not seeing it.
However, the speaker settings are cranked right up as high as they'll go, and the sound levels are pretty pathetic.  Anyone got any suggestions, either from the Bootcamp end or the Windows end as to how to fix this incredibly irritating issue?  I just got my Braille problems sorted out, but I'm stuffed if I can figure this one.  In fact, there's no Boot Camp icon in the system tray so I'm wondering whether it's even doing anything anyway.

I remember reading something about problems between BBoot Camp and 7.

Gordon




From tsiegel at softcon.com  Mon Nov 15 16:34:46 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:34:46 -0600
Subject: ipad app to convert flash to html5
Message-ID: <841D7D0D-DB65-4E0C-96AA-2C17B8363EB8@softcon.com>

This is a video post about an ipad app that will convert flash content  
into html5.  If anyone tries it out, I'd be very interested in how it  
works, and if it makes the flash content accessible.  This could be a  
nice solution for folks that already have flash capabilities, but  
would like better control over their cpu usage and other things.


http://www.internetevolution.com/video.asp?section_id=1073&doc_id=199888

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Mon Nov 15 16:43:20 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:43:20 -0600
Subject: Man loses $20 million after taking laptop for repair
In-Reply-To: <F6A554DD-B3D0-49D9-B5C1-23AC8DEF3D46@gmail.com>
References: <F6A554DD-B3D0-49D9-B5C1-23AC8DEF3D46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C0F95F5-7987-44DC-B165-62F86A5CBA43@softcon.com>

If these guys aren't thrown in jail for this kind of nonsense, then  
the court system isn't doing it's job.  This kind of behavior is why a  
lot of it profesionals have a hard time convincing folks they need  
repair services, and there really is a problem when their system  
misbehaves.  Too often folks ignore advice to get their system  
checked, because they're afraid of the cost of doing so.  Cases like  
this one prove the point that people's fears are real.  Admittedly,  
this takes it to extremes, but there's a local computer company here  
in town that charges 20 bucks to install a virus scanner that the  
company puts out for free.  Now, I don't begrudge people their money  
for providing a service, but (imo) the people would be a lot better  
served by this company if they were simply told about this free virus  
solution, then told where to get it.  If they still want the folks to  
install it, then fine, charge the 20 bucks for your time, but to  
charge folks money, and never even tell them they could do the same  
thing for themselves at zero cost is just wrong.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 18:27:00 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:27:00 -0800
Subject: Windows 7 under Boot Camp 3.whatever-it-is!
In-Reply-To: <5B84C92D-7548-4A8F-A6DD-D5539F4E5497@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <5B84C92D-7548-4A8F-A6DD-D5539F4E5497@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B5C06421-E77A-4D8E-A14D-953FDB1DBCB9@gmail.com>

Yeah I'm having the same problem and no one seems to know what to do about it. my volume and everything is at 100percent but the speakers are  very low but crank your headphones up and you will get blasted. It's already happened.

I'm not sure what to do about it and I've asked on other lists and twitter and skype and my question has gone unanswered.

S
On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> Anybody else on here running Windows under BC?  I doubt this problem is restricted to 7, although it's a real issue.  The volume control in 7 is set, according to the interface, as high as it will go.  That said, it's possible there is more to the interface, and I'm simply not seeing it.
> However, the speaker settings are cranked right up as high as they'll go, and the sound levels are pretty pathetic.  Anyone got any suggestions, either from the Bootcamp end or the Windows end as to how to fix this incredibly irritating issue?  I just got my Braille problems sorted out, but I'm stuffed if I can figure this one.  In fact, there's no Boot Camp icon in the system tray so I'm wondering whether it's even doing anything anyway.
> 
> I remember reading something about problems between BBoot Camp and 7.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 18:27:36 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:27:36 -0800
Subject: Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches theMind
In-Reply-To: <20101115094413.jyajq6nfs0oo8o88@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <F9D12B8E-F73B-4D03-AA23-11C5205563BD@gmail.com>
	<20101115094413.jyajq6nfs0oo8o88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <8187B9D4-137A-4372-8942-8D155A38ACA9@gmail.com>

and it was cool to actually be there. the actuall recording will go up on my podcast next month.

S
On Nov 15, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Thanks so much for sending this speech about the blind driver challenge. I've heard a lot about it, and it sounds like there's progress being made. Maybe in our lifetime this will become a safe reality for everyone.
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 16 11:00:58 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:00:58 +0000
Subject: Windows 7 under Boot Camp 3.whatever-it-is!
In-Reply-To: <B5C06421-E77A-4D8E-A14D-953FDB1DBCB9@gmail.com>
References: <5B84C92D-7548-4A8F-A6DD-D5539F4E5497@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B5C06421-E77A-4D8E-A14D-953FDB1DBCB9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A560A21F-F227-4C3E-B393-B7B80FE65EFC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

I think this may be a case for Apple support to deal with.  But knowing Apple as I do, it will simply be logged as a bug for fixing at some distyant future time.

I'm pretty sure it is a driver bug because they don't use Microsoft drivers, it's all Boot Camp.  Just out of interest Sarah, have you tried updating from Boot Camp 3.0 to Boot Camp 3.1?

I ask because each time I run the application that's supposed to update it, it just bombs out with no further action than unarchiving the W9nRAR archive.

Gordon


On 15 Nov 2010, at 18:27, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Yeah I'm having the same problem and no one seems to know what to do about it. my volume and everything is at 100percent but the speakers are  very low but crank your headphones up and you will get blasted. It's already happened.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do about it and I've asked on other lists and twitter and skype and my question has gone unanswered.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Nov 19 01:51:40 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane trethowan)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:51:40 +1100
Subject: Virus alert with Rollback software download
Message-ID: <4CE5D82C.8020802@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Someone mentioned this on list a little while ago, I downloaded it onto 
my Mac and got the same result, Protect Mac came up with an error and 
wouldn't allow me access to the file, I'm just wondering had the 
original sender of the alert gone any further with this issue?

Cheers!



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 19 08:51:40 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:51:40 +0000
Subject: Horizon DAta Systems Virus Alert
Message-ID: <D265152C-4179-4AE9-87BA-CEAE7700274F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Dane & all

It was I, as I'm sure Dane knows, who mentioned this issue on list.  I simply didn't bother with a follow-up message because it seemed that nobody else on list was remotely interested.

But to answer Dane's question, yes, I did follow it up.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 19 09:56:14 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:56:14 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
Message-ID: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

In this case, the subject line is very appropriate. Take this as you will.  You might mimmic the actions of some and gloat, or you might be mature enough to appreciate the gravity of the situation in which we now find ourselves as a result of this, that is for you as an individual to decide.

Lynne and I  are still reeling from the shock of the horrendous loss which both we and my employer have suffered by the purchase online of Windows 7 activation keys.  It seems that various wholesalers affiliated to Microsoft are distributing keys for Microsoft Office 2011 and earlier and Windows 7 which are either invalid, or have become blocked by Microsoft for a variety of reasons.

In some cases, those keys were used buy developers during the beta test cycle and, as such, are not applicable to end users for commercial licensing of the products.  In other cases, the keys are simply invalid, presumably generated randomly and erroneously by either Microsoft or the wholesaler who then passed them on to retailers without testing them.

Such a case was a US company also registered here in the UK and trading online under the guise of "Windows Warehouse Retail Limited".  This company, formed in the spring of 2010, exclusively sold keys to Microsoft's products, distributed currently aforementioned overseas wholesaler.

The retailer, known as Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, invested heavily under an agreement with this unknown wholesaler, and was selling activation keys online at a significantly discounted rate, with the full knowledge and approval of Microsoft Corporation.

As time went on, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited began receiving isolated reports of invalid or blocked keys from customers.  Upon contacting their wholesaler, they were informed that this was a matter of no concern and could be resolved via the issue of replacement keys.

If, however, the customer in receipt of such a blocked key was dissatisfied by this solution, Windows Retail Limited was issuing that customer with a full refund of the purchase price, no questions asked, in accordance with Windows Warehouse Retail Limited's own satisfaction guarantee policy.

However, what was a case of isolated reports soon turned into a far more serious issue, when reports of blocked or invalid keys began to flood in by the hundred, and then by the thousand.

In mid Summer of 2010, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was left with little option but to cease trading, as their policy of unconditional refunds was draining the company of its resources and, eventually, the company itself was declared insolvent.

Upon further receipt of blocked or invalid key submissions, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited is now refusing to refund or assist in any way whatsoever those customers who are left with such keys.  The wholesaler is also refusing to re-issue replacement keys, as they themselves have now been blocked by Microsoft.

Microsoft Corporation, for all its financial strength, is refusing to entertain the customers of Windows Warehouse, as they claim that the purchases were made via a third party and, as such, are not their responsibility.

So, in short, customers of Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, (effectively creditors of said), are the ones who must take the loss.  The company, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, has simply turned its back on its creditors, claiming that if it were to satisfy even one individual creditor, it would then be legally obligated to satisfy all outstanding creditors and, as such, would be bankrupted.

So, let this be a warning to anybody who is contemplating buying keys to Microsoft's products online.  Make sure you know who you're buying from.  We purchased ours in good faith, and now we are left in a situation where we are personally out of pocket to the tune of almost ?300 Pounds Sterling.  We bought keys for my employer as well, as he required a volume license plus a number of individual licenses for Windows 7.  He is now out of pocket to the tune of over ?800 Pounds Sterling.  In both cases, that is before the now necessary re-purchase (from Microsoft themselves) of new license keys.

I should add that our pre-purchase research gave us no cause to believe that Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was anything other than a genuine online merchant.  Microsoft themselves, as I indicated earlier, had proven their affiliation.

As you can imagine, we're still reeling somewhat from this loss and it has severely dented our confidence in online trading.  It certainly has done nothing to persuade us to ever use eBay again, as that was where we initially heard of this company.

As for my employer, we are having a meeting with him in just over an hour's time, where we will discuss the situation.  There is a possibility that I may pay for this error in more ways than one.  Although I was merely the messenger, the middle man so to speak, I may also turn out to be the fall guy.  He may well decide to terminate my employment because of this issue.  I think that would be a somewhat harsh decision, to be honest, given that I only carried out his instructions and that we had conducted extensive research into the company pre-purchase, and they checked out as verifiable and reliable everywhere we enquired.

Company House in London confirmed them as genuinely registered to trade within the United Kingdom.  Microsoft Corporation confirmed their affiliation.  Thus, my employer authorised me to make the purchases on behalf of his organisation.  So we shall have to see where the axe will eventually fall.

But let our misfortune be a lesson to all.  Sometimes, it doesn't pay to look for discounts.  This just confirms what I've always believed, if something is cheap there is usually a reason.  On this occasion I allowed my surely understandable desire to save money to dictate to me.  I went against my every instinct, and now may pay the price in more ways than one.  Big mistake, and one which I shall not repeat.

It is, I think, a sad fact, (although perhaps I should have expected it), that some people who I have privately warned about this issue when it came to light have responded by effectively gloating.  Again, we will remember it the next time those individuals come crawling for favours and advice.

Some of those people are those who I have gone out of my way significantly to assist in the not too distant past.  As I say, what goes around comes around.

Gordon


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Nov 19 13:31:28 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 07:31:28 -0600
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9F453DE1-DDDC-4A3B-9A15-9022D122D2F6@softcon.com>

If they were approved by microsoft, then it should be microsoft's job  
to fix the problem, regardless of the circumstances.  That's one of  
the risks you take when approving outside companies to do your selling  
for you.  I'm absolutely boggled by the fact that ms refuses to do  
nothing in this case.  However, if there truly is that many folks who  
were shafted, I'd imagine there's more than enough cause for a class  
action suit, it's just a matter of getting someone to sit up and take  
notice.
How absolutely rediculous.  Seriously, what would it cost ms to fix  
these problems.  A few thousand dollars to them is like ten cents to a  
regular person.  And, it would go a long way to patching up  
relations.  It's exactly this kind of thing that has made microsoft so  
horribly inefficient at customer service, and a huge part of the  
reason why so many folks just say screw it, and pirate the damned thing.
If this happened to apple, you could be sure apple wouldn't rest until  
the offending parties were dealt with, and Ihave no doubt they would  
at least attempt to help people who were wronged as a result.


From mstores at indiana.edu  Fri Nov 19 14:34:09 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:34:09 -0500
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>

Gordon,

I wouldn't think your employer could terminate your position for 
following his instructions. And why would someone gloat? Really, it's a 
bad situation.

Mary




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 19 14:53:13 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:53:13 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <9F453DE1-DDDC-4A3B-9A15-9022D122D2F6@softcon.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<9F453DE1-DDDC-4A3B-9A15-9022D122D2F6@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <EBF16C44-202A-438F-BF12-AC3E1B92AC74@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Travis

Well, I still can't quite talk or think about this without having to take a few minutes to calm down, or I just lose it totally.

I agree with you completely.  Microsoft is shirking their responsibilities by refusing the customers' requests to fix this problem.

We tried to do the right thing by Microsoft and others by purchasing the software.  Yet we're made to feel like cheats, pirates, thieves.  Piracy is theft, which ever way you look at it.  But so, in my opinion, is this kind of behaviour.  Microsoft and its agents should be ashamed and I hope this gets publicity.

Gordon

On 19 Nov 2010, at 13:31, Travis Siegel wrote:

> If they were approved by microsoft, then it should be microsoft's job to fix the problem, regardless of the circumstances.  That's one of the risks you take when approving outside companies to do your selling for you.  I'm absolutely boggled by the fact that ms refuses to do nothing in this case.  However, if there truly is that many folks who were shafted, I'd imagine there's more than enough cause for a class action suit, it's just a matter of getting someone to sit up and take notice.
> How absolutely rediculous.  Seriously, what would it cost ms to fix these problems.  A few thousand dollars to them is like ten cents to a regular person.  And, it would go a long way to patching up relations.  It's exactly this kind of thing that has made microsoft so horribly inefficient at customer service, and a huge part of the reason why so many folks just say screw it, and pirate the damned thing.
> If this happened to apple, you could be sure apple wouldn't rest until the offending parties were dealt with, and Ihave no doubt they would at least attempt to help people who were wronged as a result.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Nov 19 14:58:17 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:58:17 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

Believe it or not, I have had a couple of people gloat.  More than likely they're pirates themselves gloating because they got their warez, for want of a better description, from a torrent or something.

We tried to do the decent thing, as I said, and it backfired on us seriously.

As for my employer, well one of the partners was for termination because he said I'd cost the company a great deal of money.  But the senior partner, thankfully, saw the true position.  He also said that I'd done a lot of good for the company recently and as you rightly say, it was he who authorised me to make the purchases.

I did as much research into the company pre-purchase as I could and on each occasion, they came up smelling of roses.

But I'm relieved that I keep my job.

Gordon

On 19 Nov 2010, at 14:34, Mary Stores wrote:

> Gordon,
> 
> I wouldn't think your employer could terminate your position for following his instructions. And why would someone gloat? Really, it's a bad situation.
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 03:30:25 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:30:25 -0800
Subject: del new about computer failures.
Message-ID: <62CDC0D1-D4B7-41C5-9017-7EC9D60B3EEA@gmail.com>

I did not get a chance to read this as I'm not at my computer at the momentand won't be for a few more days. but did delget them selves in trouble and will there reputation be ruined? read more: http://bit.ly/cqBBbT

Sent from TweetList! - http://tweetli.st/

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 03:40:03 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:40:03 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>

Oh gosh! that makes me sick. I was luckey.I( bought  my cd and key from digital river inc for 29 US dollars as it was a student discount. Heard aboutit from the kim kondo show. Have you guys ever  thought to contact the BBB here in the us and kim komando to warn her? also maybe post thison a blog as a word of warning to those who have made the mistake. 

Man I'm so sorry about all of this!

Take care.

S

On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:56, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello all
> 
> In this case, the subject line is very appropriate. Take this as you will.  You might mimmic the actions of some and gloat, or you might be mature enough to appreciate the gravity of the situation in which we now find ourselves as a result of this, that is for you as an individual to decide.
> 
> Lynne and I  are still reeling from the shock of the horrendous loss which both we and my employer have suffered by the purchase online of Windows 7 activation keys.  It seems that various wholesalers affiliated to Microsoft are distributing keys for Microsoft Office 2011 and earlier and Windows 7 which are either invalid, or have become blocked by Microsoft for a variety of reasons.
> 
> In some cases, those keys were used buy developers during the beta test cycle and, as such, are not applicable to end users for commercial licensing of the products.  In other cases, the keys are simply invalid, presumably generated randomly and erroneously by either Microsoft or the wholesaler who then passed them on to retailers without testing them.
> 
> Such a case was a US company also registered here in the UK and trading online under the guise of "Windows Warehouse Retail Limited".  This company, formed in the spring of 2010, exclusively sold keys to Microsoft's products, distributed currently aforementioned overseas wholesaler.
> 
> The retailer, known as Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, invested heavily under an agreement with this unknown wholesaler, and was selling activation keys online at a significantly discounted rate, with the full knowledge and approval of Microsoft Corporation.
> 
> As time went on, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited began receiving isolated reports of invalid or blocked keys from customers.  Upon contacting their wholesaler, they were informed that this was a matter of no concern and could be resolved via the issue of replacement keys.
> 
> If, however, the customer in receipt of such a blocked key was dissatisfied by this solution, Windows Retail Limited was issuing that customer with a full refund of the purchase price, no questions asked, in accordance with Windows Warehouse Retail Limited's own satisfaction guarantee policy.
> 
> However, what was a case of isolated reports soon turned into a far more serious issue, when reports of blocked or invalid keys began to flood in by the hundred, and then by the thousand.
> 
> In mid Summer of 2010, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was left with little option but to cease trading, as their policy of unconditional refunds was draining the company of its resources and, eventually, the company itself was declared insolvent.
> 
> Upon further receipt of blocked or invalid key submissions, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited is now refusing to refund or assist in any way whatsoever those customers who are left with such keys.  The wholesaler is also refusing to re-issue replacement keys, as they themselves have now been blocked by Microsoft.
> 
> Microsoft Corporation, for all its financial strength, is refusing to entertain the customers of Windows Warehouse, as they claim that the purchases were made via a third party and, as such, are not their responsibility.
> 
> So, in short, customers of Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, (effectively creditors of said), are the ones who must take the loss.  The company, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, has simply turned its back on its creditors, claiming that if it were to satisfy even one individual creditor, it would then be legally obligated to satisfy all outstanding creditors and, as such, would be bankrupted.
> 
> So, let this be a warning to anybody who is contemplating buying keys to Microsoft's products online.  Make sure you know who you're buying from.  We purchased ours in good faith, and now we are left in a situation where we are personally out of pocket to the tune of almost ?300 Pounds Sterling.  We bought keys for my employer as well, as he required a volume license plus a number of individual licenses for Windows 7.  He is now out of pocket to the tune of over ?800 Pounds Sterling.  In both cases, that is before the now necessary re-purchase (from Microsoft themselves) of new license keys.
> 
> I should add that our pre-purchase research gave us no cause to believe that Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was anything other than a genuine online merchant.  Microsoft themselves, as I indicated earlier, had proven their affiliation.
> 
> As you can imagine, we're still reeling somewhat from this loss and it has severely dented our confidence in online trading.  It certainly has done nothing to persuade us to ever use eBay again, as that was where we initially heard of this company.
> 
> As for my employer, we are having a meeting with him in just over an hour's time, where we will discuss the situation.  There is a possibility that I may pay for this error in more ways than one.  Although I was merely the messenger, the middle man so to speak, I may also turn out to be the fall guy.  He may well decide to terminate my employment because of this issue.  I think that would be a somewhat harsh decision, to be honest, given that I only carried out his instructions and that we had conducted extensive research into the company pre-purchase, and they checked out as verifiable and reliable everywhere we enquired.
> 
> Company House in London confirmed them as genuinely registered to trade within the United Kingdom.  Microsoft Corporation confirmed their affiliation.  Thus, my employer authorised me to make the purchases on behalf of his organisation.  So we shall have to see where the axe will eventually fall.
> 
> But let our misfortune be a lesson to all.  Sometimes, it doesn't pay to look for discounts.  This just confirms what I've always believed, if something is cheap there is usually a reason.  On this occasion I allowed my surely understandable desire to save money to dictate to me.  I went against my every instinct, and now may pay the price in more ways than one.  Big mistake, and one which I shall not repeat.
> 
> It is, I think, a sad fact, (although perhaps I should have expected it), that some people who I have privately warned about this issue when it came to light have responded by effectively gloating.  Again, we will remember it the next time those individuals come crawling for favours and advice.
> 
> Some of those people are those who I have gone out of my way significantly to assist in the not too distant past.  As I say, what goes around comes around.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 03:42:55 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:42:55 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
	<AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <006B845B-2764-4A88-9BDF-7A00C0FFDB97@gmail.com>

I don't have contacto for the BBB here but can someone help him off list probablyto make set up a class action law suit regarding this matter?

On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:58, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Mary
> 
> Believe it or not, I have had a couple of people gloat.  More than likely they're pirates themselves gloating because they got their warez, for want of a better description, from a torrent or something.
> 
> We tried to do the decent thing, as I said, and it backfired on us seriously.
> 
> As for my employer, well one of the partners was for termination because he said I'd cost the company a great deal of money.  But the senior partner, thankfully, saw the true position.  He also said that I'd done a lot of good for the company recently and as you rightly say, it was he who authorised me to make the purchases.
> 
> I did as much research into the company pre-purchase as I could and on each occasion, they came up smelling of roses.
> 
> But I'm relieved that I keep my job.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 19 Nov 2010, at 14:34, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> Gordon,
>> 
>> I wouldn't think your employer could terminate your position for following his instructions. And why would someone gloat? Really, it's a bad situation.
>> 
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 03:44:44 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:44:44 -0800
Subject: Windows 7 under Boot Camp 3.whatever-it-is!
In-Reply-To: <A560A21F-F227-4C3E-B393-B7B80FE65EFC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <5B84C92D-7548-4A8F-A6DD-D5539F4E5497@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B5C06421-E77A-4D8E-A14D-953FDB1DBCB9@gmail.com>
	<A560A21F-F227-4C3E-B393-B7B80FE65EFC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <59C48A62-EB60-4037-96B5-76CC39B6BDF2@gmail.com>

Minesays it can't apply the patch as it is not signed properly or something. I'm sure it's opperator error so dunno.

On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:00, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Sarah
> 
> I think this may be a case for Apple support to deal with.  But knowing Apple as I do, it will simply be logged as a bug for fixing at some distyant future time.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it is a driver bug because they don't use Microsoft drivers, it's all Boot Camp.  Just out of interest Sarah, have you tried updating from Boot Camp 3.0 to Boot Camp 3.1?
> 
> I ask because each time I run the application that's supposed to update it, it just bombs out with no further action than unarchiving the W9nRAR archive.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> On 15 Nov 2010, at 18:27, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Yeah I'm having the same problem and no one seems to know what to do about it. my volume and everything is at 100percent but the speakers are  very low but crank your headphones up and you will get blasted. It's already happened.
>> 
>> I'm not sure what to do about it and I've asked on other lists and twitter and skype and my question has gone unanswered.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sat Nov 20 18:03:41 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:03:41 -0600
Subject: del new about computer failures.
In-Reply-To: <62CDC0D1-D4B7-41C5-9017-7EC9D60B3EEA@gmail.com>
References: <62CDC0D1-D4B7-41C5-9017-7EC9D60B3EEA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9E82FC61-0DF0-4282-866E-FB6F30CC932D@softcon.com>

Dell's reputation in the desktop computer market was ruined years ago  
when they switched from using quality parts to using substandard cheap  
replacements.  Anyone who knnows anything about computers won't  
recomend dell machines for any sort of Dell machines, because of the  
substandard parts they're made from.
The last experience I had with Dell was not a pleasant one, though I  
still have the machine, I got ripped off big time, which is one reason  
I'd never recomend Dell to anyone, even if they weren't using junk  
parts, simply because their business practices leave a *lot* to be  
desired.
I've been building computers since 1992, and the first thing I do when  
I get a new machine is take it apart to see what it's made of, and I  
can tell you with absolute certainty, Dell machines over the past 3  
years or so are nothing to write home about.  Even when I strongly  
recomended against a friend of mine buying a Dell back a few years,  
they got one anyway, and have had nothing but trouble with it.   
Including the ever-increasing practice of using the cheapest video  
cards in existence, so that you have to use computer memory to  
simulate video ram, and not only that, but they're happy to charge you  
an additional hundred bucks so that they can canabalize even more  
system ram, and claim you're getting better video performance, so  
instead of eating 32MB of your system ram, they'll use 64MB of it  
instead.
Of course, Dell isn't the only company doing this sort of thing, but  
the whole practice of providing your windows system on a private  
partition on the hd, and not providing media to reinstall the os  
(which by law they're required to include) they'll charge you another  
50-75 bucks to obtain physical media, which is something they're  
supposed to be including in the first place.  It's stuff (and I'm  
being polite here) that has convinced me to *never* ever purchase  
another name-brand pc.  I'll buy parts, and make my own thanks.  It  
may not be the latest, greatest, or most powerful machine, but at  
least I'll know *exactly* what's in it, and how everything works  
together.
Yes, it costs more, and no, I don't get support for it, but the last  
time I tried to use commercial support for a machine I purchased, I  
was flat out told that they wouldn't offer it, because I wasn't the  
person on record as having purchased the machine.
That's a whole 'nother story that is way off topic for this list, but  
suffice it to say commercial support where 90 percent of tech calls  
end in either an answer of reinstall, or sorry, we don't handle that,  
really makes me wonder where the heck they hire these tech support  
people.

I could of course go on for many more pages, but this is already more  
of a rant than I intended, so I'll just quit and say commercial  
machines (generally) aren't worth the cost you pay for them unless  
you're a complete computer neophite, and have no clue what you're  
doing, or how to use it, otherwise, it's cheaper to handle your own  
support, and with a bit more knowledge, build your own.
I'm not denying these companies (initially) offered a valuable  
service, but just like everything else, it's been twisted into  
something completely useless to more than half of the folks that might  
otherwise benefit from it.
Btw, Dell isn't the only company that has recently been slapped for  
using crap in their machines, I've seen similar articles about other  
companies too.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 18:45:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 10:45:16 -0800
Subject: del new about computer failures.
In-Reply-To: <9E82FC61-0DF0-4282-866E-FB6F30CC932D@softcon.com>
References: <62CDC0D1-D4B7-41C5-9017-7EC9D60B3EEA@gmail.com>
	<9E82FC61-0DF0-4282-866E-FB6F30CC932D@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <BF3C1CDA-A8D7-4036-A7ED-3886D08E5CE9@gmail.com>

Oh really now!

Yeah I have disliked del and my dad has gotten del laptops I'm trying to convince the whole family to go mac but that will happen in about 2 thousand years. lol!

I know of someone who switched because of the crapy computers they were getting. I can't believe we cannot report them to the BBB or what ever and make them stop but like that will help!

S
On Nov 20, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Dell's reputation in the desktop computer market was ruined years ago when they switched from using quality parts to using substandard cheap replacements.  Anyone who knnows anything about computers won't recomend dell machines for any sort of Dell machines, because of the substandard parts they're made from.
> The last experience I had with Dell was not a pleasant one, though I still have the machine, I got ripped off big time, which is one reason I'd never recomend Dell to anyone, even if they weren't using junk parts, simply because their business practices leave a *lot* to be desired.
> I've been building computers since 1992, and the first thing I do when I get a new machine is take it apart to see what it's made of, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, Dell machines over the past 3 years or so are nothing to write home about.  Even when I strongly recomended against a friend of mine buying a Dell back a few years, they got one anyway, and have had nothing but trouble with it.  Including the ever-increasing practice of using the cheapest video cards in existence, so that you have to use computer memory to simulate video ram, and not only that, but they're happy to charge you an additional hundred bucks so that they can canabalize even more system ram, and claim you're getting better video performance, so instead of eating 32MB of your system ram, they'll use 64MB of it instead.
> Of course, Dell isn't the only company doing this sort of thing, but the whole practice of providing your windows system on a private partition on the hd, and not providing media to reinstall the os (which by law they're required to include) they'll charge you another 50-75 bucks to obtain physical media, which is something they're supposed to be including in the first place.  It's stuff (and I'm being polite here) that has convinced me to *never* ever purchase another name-brand pc.  I'll buy parts, and make my own thanks.  It may not be the latest, greatest, or most powerful machine, but at least I'll know *exactly* what's in it, and how everything works together.
> Yes, it costs more, and no, I don't get support for it, but the last time I tried to use commercial support for a machine I purchased, I was flat out told that they wouldn't offer it, because I wasn't the person on record as having purchased the machine.
> That's a whole 'nother story that is way off topic for this list, but suffice it to say commercial support where 90 percent of tech calls end in either an answer of reinstall, or sorry, we don't handle that, really makes me wonder where the heck they hire these tech support people.
> 
> I could of course go on for many more pages, but this is already more of a rant than I intended, so I'll just quit and say commercial machines (generally) aren't worth the cost you pay for them unless you're a complete computer neophite, and have no clue what you're doing, or how to use it, otherwise, it's cheaper to handle your own support, and with a bit more knowledge, build your own.
> I'm not denying these companies (initially) offered a valuable service, but just like everything else, it's been twisted into something completely useless to more than half of the folks that might otherwise benefit from it.
> Btw, Dell isn't the only company that has recently been slapped for using crap in their machines, I've seen similar articles about other companies too.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Nov 21 12:47:32 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane trethowan)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 23:47:32 +1100
Subject: Eset Security Centre
In-Reply-To: <E3942C48-AE15-4DF5-82A4-77B702CB637C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <E3942C48-AE15-4DF5-82A4-77B702CB637C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4CE914E4.3050204@internode.on.net>

Howdy!

Yep, the software is perfectly accessible and even more so now than it 
ever was in its past.  Accessibility os also documented in the extensive 
help files for the software.

On 24/10/2010 10:30 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> Hello everybody
>
> Just checking; have the recent developments to this suite in any way been to the detriment of accessibility?
>
> Thank you
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 21 14:03:47 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:03:47 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

I hope you will forgive my saying so; but I had a little difficulty with some of your message because of typing.

We're still reeling from the shock of this, it's really hit us hard. And now, we bought a key from Microsoft themselves and this darn key is also coming back with an "Invalid key" entry when we try to use it.

Micropsoft's so-called support people just said "We strongly suspect that there is another Windows system already installed on your drive. You may not have put it there, it may have been put there when you bought the computer".

They obviously think people are idiots or something.

Lynne

On 20 Nov 2010, at 03:40, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Oh gosh! that makes me sick. I was luckey.I( bought  my cd and key from digital river inc for 29 US dollars as it was a student discount. Heard aboutit from the kim kondo show. Have you guys ever  thought to contact the BBB here in the us and kim komando to warn her? also maybe post thison a blog as a word of warning to those who have made the mistake. 
> 
> Man I'm so sorry about all of this!
> 
> Take care.
> 
> S
> 
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:56, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Hello all
>> 
>> In this case, the subject line is very appropriate. Take this as you will.  You might mimmic the actions of some and gloat, or you might be mature enough to appreciate the gravity of the situation in which we now find ourselves as a result of this, that is for you as an individual to decide.
>> 
>> Lynne and I  are still reeling from the shock of the horrendous loss which both we and my employer have suffered by the purchase online of Windows 7 activation keys.  It seems that various wholesalers affiliated to Microsoft are distributing keys for Microsoft Office 2011 and earlier and Windows 7 which are either invalid, or have become blocked by Microsoft for a variety of reasons.
>> 
>> In some cases, those keys were used buy developers during the beta test cycle and, as such, are not applicable to end users for commercial licensing of the products.  In other cases, the keys are simply invalid, presumably generated randomly and erroneously by either Microsoft or the wholesaler who then passed them on to retailers without testing them.
>> 
>> Such a case was a US company also registered here in the UK and trading online under the guise of "Windows Warehouse Retail Limited".  This company, formed in the spring of 2010, exclusively sold keys to Microsoft's products, distributed currently aforementioned overseas wholesaler.
>> 
>> The retailer, known as Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, invested heavily under an agreement with this unknown wholesaler, and was selling activation keys online at a significantly discounted rate, with the full knowledge and approval of Microsoft Corporation.
>> 
>> As time went on, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited began receiving isolated reports of invalid or blocked keys from customers.  Upon contacting their wholesaler, they were informed that this was a matter of no concern and could be resolved via the issue of replacement keys.
>> 
>> If, however, the customer in receipt of such a blocked key was dissatisfied by this solution, Windows Retail Limited was issuing that customer with a full refund of the purchase price, no questions asked, in accordance with Windows Warehouse Retail Limited's own satisfaction guarantee policy.
>> 
>> However, what was a case of isolated reports soon turned into a far more serious issue, when reports of blocked or invalid keys began to flood in by the hundred, and then by the thousand.
>> 
>> In mid Summer of 2010, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was left with little option but to cease trading, as their policy of unconditional refunds was draining the company of its resources and, eventually, the company itself was declared insolvent.
>> 
>> Upon further receipt of blocked or invalid key submissions, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited is now refusing to refund or assist in any way whatsoever those customers who are left with such keys.  The wholesaler is also refusing to re-issue replacement keys, as they themselves have now been blocked by Microsoft.
>> 
>> Microsoft Corporation, for all its financial strength, is refusing to entertain the customers of Windows Warehouse, as they claim that the purchases were made via a third party and, as such, are not their responsibility.
>> 
>> So, in short, customers of Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, (effectively creditors of said), are the ones who must take the loss.  The company, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, has simply turned its back on its creditors, claiming that if it were to satisfy even one individual creditor, it would then be legally obligated to satisfy all outstanding creditors and, as such, would be bankrupted.
>> 
>> So, let this be a warning to anybody who is contemplating buying keys to Microsoft's products online.  Make sure you know who you're buying from.  We purchased ours in good faith, and now we are left in a situation where we are personally out of pocket to the tune of almost ?300 Pounds Sterling.  We bought keys for my employer as well, as he required a volume license plus a number of individual licenses for Windows 7.  He is now out of pocket to the tune of over ?800 Pounds Sterling.  In both cases, that is before the now necessary re-purchase (from Microsoft themselves) of new license keys.
>> 
>> I should add that our pre-purchase research gave us no cause to believe that Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was anything other than a genuine online merchant.  Microsoft themselves, as I indicated earlier, had proven their affiliation.
>> 
>> As you can imagine, we're still reeling somewhat from this loss and it has severely dented our confidence in online trading.  It certainly has done nothing to persuade us to ever use eBay again, as that was where we initially heard of this company.
>> 
>> As for my employer, we are having a meeting with him in just over an hour's time, where we will discuss the situation.  There is a possibility that I may pay for this error in more ways than one.  Although I was merely the messenger, the middle man so to speak, I may also turn out to be the fall guy.  He may well decide to terminate my employment because of this issue.  I think that would be a somewhat harsh decision, to be honest, given that I only carried out his instructions and that we had conducted extensive research into the company pre-purchase, and they checked out as verifiable and reliable everywhere we enquired.
>> 
>> Company House in London confirmed them as genuinely registered to trade within the United Kingdom.  Microsoft Corporation confirmed their affiliation.  Thus, my employer authorised me to make the purchases on behalf of his organisation.  So we shall have to see where the axe will eventually fall.
>> 
>> But let our misfortune be a lesson to all.  Sometimes, it doesn't pay to look for discounts.  This just confirms what I've always believed, if something is cheap there is usually a reason.  On this occasion I allowed my surely understandable desire to save money to dictate to me.  I went against my every instinct, and now may pay the price in more ways than one.  Big mistake, and one which I shall not repeat.
>> 
>> It is, I think, a sad fact, (although perhaps I should have expected it), that some people who I have privately warned about this issue when it came to light have responded by effectively gloating.  Again, we will remember it the next time those individuals come crawling for favours and advice.
>> 
>> Some of those people are those who I have gone out of my way significantly to assist in the not too distant past.  As I say, what goes around comes around.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Nov 21 14:09:58 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:09:58 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <006B845B-2764-4A88-9BDF-7A00C0FFDB97@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
	<AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<006B845B-2764-4A88-9BDF-7A00C0FFDB97@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08B4B25F-53D2-46A5-837F-BF9D7B858785@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

We wouldn't know where to start with setting up a law suit. Who do we file the claim against? We have no knowledge of who even owns this company. But we've been advised that they have broken UK law by selling goods or products which were unfit for the purpose for which they were sold. Our problem is that we don't know much about law suits and we don't have the money to lose if it should fail.

By the way, sorry for forgetting to switch to my own account in the last post.

Lynne

On 20 Nov 2010, at 03:42, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I don't have contacto for the BBB here but can someone help him off list probablyto make set up a class action law suit regarding this matter?
> 
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:58, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Mary
>> 
>> Believe it or not, I have had a couple of people gloat.  More than likely they're pirates themselves gloating because they got their warez, for want of a better description, from a torrent or something.
>> 
>> We tried to do the decent thing, as I said, and it backfired on us seriously.
>> 
>> As for my employer, well one of the partners was for termination because he said I'd cost the company a great deal of money.  But the senior partner, thankfully, saw the true position.  He also said that I'd done a lot of good for the company recently and as you rightly say, it was he who authorised me to make the purchases.
>> 
>> I did as much research into the company pre-purchase as I could and on each occasion, they came up smelling of roses.
>> 
>> But I'm relieved that I keep my job.
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 14:34, Mary Stores wrote:
>> 
>>> Gordon,
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't think your employer could terminate your position for following his instructions. And why would someone gloat? Really, it's a bad situation.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 00:32:21 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:32:21 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>

Sorry about that. my bt keyboard hates putting in spaces. did you try a complete wipe of the hard drive and install? and also complain very loud to ms that no  there is not an os installed.

S
On Nov 21, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> I hope you will forgive my saying so; but I had a little difficulty with some of your message because of typing.
> 
> We're still reeling from the shock of this, it's really hit us hard. And now, we bought a key from Microsoft themselves and this darn key is also coming back with an "Invalid key" entry when we try to use it.
> 
> Micropsoft's so-called support people just said "We strongly suspect that there is another Windows system already installed on your drive. You may not have put it there, it may have been put there when you bought the computer".
> 
> They obviously think people are idiots or something.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 20 Nov 2010, at 03:40, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Oh gosh! that makes me sick. I was luckey.I( bought  my cd and key from digital river inc for 29 US dollars as it was a student discount. Heard aboutit from the kim kondo show. Have you guys ever  thought to contact the BBB here in the us and kim komando to warn her? also maybe post thison a blog as a word of warning to those who have made the mistake. 
>> 
>> Man I'm so sorry about all of this!
>> 
>> Take care.
>> 
>> S
>> 
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:56, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello all
>>> 
>>> In this case, the subject line is very appropriate. Take this as you will.  You might mimmic the actions of some and gloat, or you might be mature enough to appreciate the gravity of the situation in which we now find ourselves as a result of this, that is for you as an individual to decide.
>>> 
>>> Lynne and I  are still reeling from the shock of the horrendous loss which both we and my employer have suffered by the purchase online of Windows 7 activation keys.  It seems that various wholesalers affiliated to Microsoft are distributing keys for Microsoft Office 2011 and earlier and Windows 7 which are either invalid, or have become blocked by Microsoft for a variety of reasons.
>>> 
>>> In some cases, those keys were used buy developers during the beta test cycle and, as such, are not applicable to end users for commercial licensing of the products.  In other cases, the keys are simply invalid, presumably generated randomly and erroneously by either Microsoft or the wholesaler who then passed them on to retailers without testing them.
>>> 
>>> Such a case was a US company also registered here in the UK and trading online under the guise of "Windows Warehouse Retail Limited".  This company, formed in the spring of 2010, exclusively sold keys to Microsoft's products, distributed currently aforementioned overseas wholesaler.
>>> 
>>> The retailer, known as Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, invested heavily under an agreement with this unknown wholesaler, and was selling activation keys online at a significantly discounted rate, with the full knowledge and approval of Microsoft Corporation.
>>> 
>>> As time went on, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited began receiving isolated reports of invalid or blocked keys from customers.  Upon contacting their wholesaler, they were informed that this was a matter of no concern and could be resolved via the issue of replacement keys.
>>> 
>>> If, however, the customer in receipt of such a blocked key was dissatisfied by this solution, Windows Retail Limited was issuing that customer with a full refund of the purchase price, no questions asked, in accordance with Windows Warehouse Retail Limited's own satisfaction guarantee policy.
>>> 
>>> However, what was a case of isolated reports soon turned into a far more serious issue, when reports of blocked or invalid keys began to flood in by the hundred, and then by the thousand.
>>> 
>>> In mid Summer of 2010, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was left with little option but to cease trading, as their policy of unconditional refunds was draining the company of its resources and, eventually, the company itself was declared insolvent.
>>> 
>>> Upon further receipt of blocked or invalid key submissions, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited is now refusing to refund or assist in any way whatsoever those customers who are left with such keys.  The wholesaler is also refusing to re-issue replacement keys, as they themselves have now been blocked by Microsoft.
>>> 
>>> Microsoft Corporation, for all its financial strength, is refusing to entertain the customers of Windows Warehouse, as they claim that the purchases were made via a third party and, as such, are not their responsibility.
>>> 
>>> So, in short, customers of Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, (effectively creditors of said), are the ones who must take the loss.  The company, Windows Warehouse Retail Limited, has simply turned its back on its creditors, claiming that if it were to satisfy even one individual creditor, it would then be legally obligated to satisfy all outstanding creditors and, as such, would be bankrupted.
>>> 
>>> So, let this be a warning to anybody who is contemplating buying keys to Microsoft's products online.  Make sure you know who you're buying from.  We purchased ours in good faith, and now we are left in a situation where we are personally out of pocket to the tune of almost ?300 Pounds Sterling.  We bought keys for my employer as well, as he required a volume license plus a number of individual licenses for Windows 7.  He is now out of pocket to the tune of over ?800 Pounds Sterling.  In both cases, that is before the now necessary re-purchase (from Microsoft themselves) of new license keys.
>>> 
>>> I should add that our pre-purchase research gave us no cause to believe that Windows Warehouse Retail Limited was anything other than a genuine online merchant.  Microsoft themselves, as I indicated earlier, had proven their affiliation.
>>> 
>>> As you can imagine, we're still reeling somewhat from this loss and it has severely dented our confidence in online trading.  It certainly has done nothing to persuade us to ever use eBay again, as that was where we initially heard of this company.
>>> 
>>> As for my employer, we are having a meeting with him in just over an hour's time, where we will discuss the situation.  There is a possibility that I may pay for this error in more ways than one.  Although I was merely the messenger, the middle man so to speak, I may also turn out to be the fall guy.  He may well decide to terminate my employment because of this issue.  I think that would be a somewhat harsh decision, to be honest, given that I only carried out his instructions and that we had conducted extensive research into the company pre-purchase, and they checked out as verifiable and reliable everywhere we enquired.
>>> 
>>> Company House in London confirmed them as genuinely registered to trade within the United Kingdom.  Microsoft Corporation confirmed their affiliation.  Thus, my employer authorised me to make the purchases on behalf of his organisation.  So we shall have to see where the axe will eventually fall.
>>> 
>>> But let our misfortune be a lesson to all.  Sometimes, it doesn't pay to look for discounts.  This just confirms what I've always believed, if something is cheap there is usually a reason.  On this occasion I allowed my surely understandable desire to save money to dictate to me.  I went against my every instinct, and now may pay the price in more ways than one.  Big mistake, and one which I shall not repeat.
>>> 
>>> It is, I think, a sad fact, (although perhaps I should have expected it), that some people who I have privately warned about this issue when it came to light have responded by effectively gloating.  Again, we will remember it the next time those individuals come crawling for favours and advice.
>>> 
>>> Some of those people are those who I have gone out of my way significantly to assist in the not too distant past.  As I say, what goes around comes around.
>>> 
>>> Gordon
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 00:33:40 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:33:40 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <08B4B25F-53D2-46A5-837F-BF9D7B858785@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
	<AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<006B845B-2764-4A88-9BDF-7A00C0FFDB97@gmail.com>
	<08B4B25F-53D2-46A5-837F-BF9D7B858785@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CC89370C-75C9-4045-92D7-47F6481132EE@gmail.com>

I'll have to pass that answer on to someone who knows. I'd start by contacting one of the nfb loyers here. the issue does not have anything to do wiht blindness but maybe they could refer you to someone who knows what to do. Look for ron Gardener. He is bassed up in utah but good luck.
On Nov 21, 2010, at 6:09 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> We wouldn't know where to start with setting up a law suit. Who do we file the claim against? We have no knowledge of who even owns this company. But we've been advised that they have broken UK law by selling goods or products which were unfit for the purpose for which they were sold. Our problem is that we don't know much about law suits and we don't have the money to lose if it should fail.
> 
> By the way, sorry for forgetting to switch to my own account in the last post.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 20 Nov 2010, at 03:42, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I don't have contacto for the BBB here but can someone help him off list probablyto make set up a class action law suit regarding this matter?
>> 
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:58, Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Mary
>>> 
>>> Believe it or not, I have had a couple of people gloat.  More than likely they're pirates themselves gloating because they got their warez, for want of a better description, from a torrent or something.
>>> 
>>> We tried to do the decent thing, as I said, and it backfired on us seriously.
>>> 
>>> As for my employer, well one of the partners was for termination because he said I'd cost the company a great deal of money.  But the senior partner, thankfully, saw the true position.  He also said that I'd done a lot of good for the company recently and as you rightly say, it was he who authorised me to make the purchases.
>>> 
>>> I did as much research into the company pre-purchase as I could and on each occasion, they came up smelling of roses.
>>> 
>>> But I'm relieved that I keep my job.
>>> 
>>> Gordon
>>> 
>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 14:34, Mary Stores wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Gordon,
>>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't think your employer could terminate your position for following his instructions. And why would someone gloat? Really, it's a bad situation.
>>>> 
>>>> Mary
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>>> 
>>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>>> 
>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>> 
>>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 22 06:19:50 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:19:50 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <CC89370C-75C9-4045-92D7-47F6481132EE@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101119093409.ludwbs1pys8gg4gg@webmail.iu.edu>
	<AFB534AB-1587-4077-A799-1735C484D339@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<006B845B-2764-4A88-9BDF-7A00C0FFDB97@gmail.com>
	<08B4B25F-53D2-46A5-837F-BF9D7B858785@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<CC89370C-75C9-4045-92D7-47F6481132EE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <544CEF49-BBEF-4163-B6F9-C2FE4091BAE2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 22 Nov 2010, at 00:33, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? I'll have to pass that answer on to someone who knows. I'd start by contacting one of the nfb loyers here. the issue does not have anything to do wiht blindness but maybe they could refer you to someone who knows what to do. Look for ron Gardener. He is bassed up in utah but good luck.

Whilst it irks us, you have to remember that we are overseas. It would probably cost us a small fortune and, in any event, my brother is a barrister. He tells me that Windows Warehouse Retail Limited have not broken any UK trading laws. The company has been declared insolvent so therefore, they no longer have an obligation to satisfy creditors.

We are, therefore, up the creek without a paddle, so to speak. We have 0 chance of recovering our money and in any case, US legal proceedings would be slow, stressful and very expensive.

This issue is in no way relevant to Gordon being blind, so we don't see how his disabled status could be used in this process.

No, I'm afraid it just looks as though we lose out. Were we to lose any legal battle we would probably be bankrupted ourselves.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 22 06:25:24 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:25:24 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 22 Nov 2010, at 00:32, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Sorry about that. my bt keyboard hates putting in spaces. did you try a complete wipe of the hard drive and install? and also complain very loud to ms that no  there is not an os installed.

Yes, we did indeed. That's how we are getting an invalid key option.

Microsoft has told us now that we're supposed to have a version of XP or Vista installed and then upgrade. Great! Magic! That can't be done. We have an XP SP2 CD but each time we try to install it under Boot Camp we get a disk error after the first restart.

The partition we point it too is pre-formatted, by the way, so we just don't understand what's going on.

If we could install a version of XP that would work, maybe we could do this. But to be honest, Gordon has just had enough! We have requested a letter of destruction in advance of a refund on our order from Microsoft.

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Nov 22 17:16:42 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 04:16:42 +1100
Subject: Thunderbird email client doing something odd with my Imap messages
Message-ID: <5254C53B-1335-4BCA-9338-A0C592920F5D@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Wondering if anyone has any ideas on this one as i've never seen the problem before.

When I run Thunderbird it would appear to change the date stamp on my messages so all messages received in the last 24 hours have now jumped ahead in time, if I look at the trash mail box in Apple Mail for example, yesterdays received messages are appearing as today's messages though they're appearing ahead of time, its just on a quarter past 4 on Tuesday morning and messages are showing a time stamp of later than midday for today, anyone any clues as to what's going on? Windows time on PC to my knowledge seems to be set correctly.



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 22 19:51:06 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 19:51:06 +0000
Subject: Thunderbird email client doing something odd with my Imap messages
In-Reply-To: <5254C53B-1335-4BCA-9338-A0C592920F5D@internode.on.net>
References: <5254C53B-1335-4BCA-9338-A0C592920F5D@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CEF07015-67FD-4681-978B-F472F9F8624D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

It sounds like TB is adding a time offset in addition to the time difference between UTC and where you are.  Unfortunately I can't try this but I think that's what's probably happening.

Is there a time offset preference in Thunderbird?

On 22 Nov 2010, at 17:16, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Wondering if anyone has any ideas on this one as i've never seen the problem before.
> 
> When I run Thunderbird it would appear to change the date stamp on my messages so all messages received in the last 24 hours have now jumped ahead in time, if I look at the trash mail box in Apple Mail for example, yesterdays received messages are appearing as today's messages though they're appearing ahead of time, its just on a quarter past 4 on Tuesday morning and messages are showing a time stamp of later than midday for today, anyone any clues as to what's going on? Windows time on PC to my knowledge seems to be set correctly.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 22 19:57:13 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 19:57:13 +0000
Subject: Windows XP SP2, 3 or Windows Vista Install Disk
Message-ID: <4843E995-94A5-416D-9602-12F6C88ACAF8@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

Can anybody possibly help with an image of a Windows XP or Vista install  Disk Image?  I guess it'd have to be a retail edition or an OEM edition of XP, licenses for both of which we have.  We need to install XP under Boot Camp, but for some unknown reason, after we do the first restart post-format of the partition, we get a "Disc Error" message.  This is creating horrendous issues for us.

If anybody could help with an ISO image it would be appreciate.   I don't think we're breaking any laws by doing that, as we're not asking for anybody else's serial numbers.

Gordon


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 21:30:41 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:30:41 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
	<DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B26426F8-51DF-47A3-89C7-ABF00BBDCB25@gmail.com>

Ok try this then. I did this and it works with my upgrade cd.

1. start the install.

2. ecept eh licence agreement

3. choose clean install and follow the prompts

Now activate windows and it should work.
On Nov 21, 2010, at 10:25 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 22 Nov 2010, at 00:32, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? Sorry about that. my bt keyboard hates putting in spaces. did you try a complete wipe of the hard drive and install? and also complain very loud to ms that no  there is not an os installed.
> 
> Yes, we did indeed. That's how we are getting an invalid key option.
> 
> Microsoft has told us now that we're supposed to have a version of XP or Vista installed and then upgrade. Great! Magic! That can't be done. We have an XP SP2 CD but each time we try to install it under Boot Camp we get a disk error after the first restart.
> 
> The partition we point it too is pre-formatted, by the way, so we just don't understand what's going on.
> 
> If we could install a version of XP that would work, maybe we could do this. But to be honest, Gordon has just had enough! We have requested a letter of destruction in advance of a refund on our order from Microsoft.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 21:33:38 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:33:38 -0800
Subject: Costs of suing file sharers could skyrocket soon 
Message-ID: <CD9C8564-012D-4C6B-9D7E-7C0E8FBD6848@gmail.com>

Will this case win or will the people be sued in there own areas? read more: http://bit.ly/dS5oJq

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Nov 22 23:03:59 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 23:03:59 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <B26426F8-51DF-47A3-89C7-ABF00BBDCB25@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
	<DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B26426F8-51DF-47A3-89C7-ABF00BBDCB25@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD71EEFA-A5DB-41E1-8E9F-F89D77CDBA23@tft-bbs.co.uk>

hello Sarah

This is the whole point!  The key Microsoft sent us is coming up as "Invalid".  It isn't saying it is a wrong product key, it's telling us the key is "Invalid".  But I can't get Microsoft to listen.  They keep whining about another system has to be installed first.

They're a pack of idiots.


On 22 Nov 2010, at 21:30, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Ok try this then. I did this and it works with my upgrade cd.
> 
> 1. start the install.
> 
> 2. ecept eh licence agreement
> 
> 3. choose clean install and follow the prompts
> 
> Now activate windows and it should work.


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Nov 22 23:20:57 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:20:57 +1100
Subject: Thunderbird email client doing something odd with my Imap messages
In-Reply-To: <CEF07015-67FD-4681-978B-F472F9F8624D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <5254C53B-1335-4BCA-9338-A0C592920F5D@internode.on.net>
	<CEF07015-67FD-4681-978B-F472F9F8624D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4973942A-DDBC-43B6-833E-E9DDD4A8BF85@internode.on.net>

Yep well that all makes sense, I've not seen a time offset preference anywhere but it may be one of those preferences I have to dig for, Thunderbird has many of them which aren't obvious and some of which are configured using a configuration file so thanks for this, at least I've now got something to look for in a knowledge base if I can't find what I'm looking for here.


On 23/11/2010, at 6:51 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> It sounds like TB is adding a time offset in addition to the time difference between UTC and where you are.  Unfortunately I can't try this but I think that's what's probably happening.
> 
> Is there a time offset preference in Thunderbird?
> 
> On 22 Nov 2010, at 17:16, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> Wondering if anyone has any ideas on this one as i've never seen the problem before.
>> 
>> When I run Thunderbird it would appear to change the date stamp on my messages so all messages received in the last 24 hours have now jumped ahead in time, if I look at the trash mail box in Apple Mail for example, yesterdays received messages are appearing as today's messages though they're appearing ahead of time, its just on a quarter past 4 on Tuesday morning and messages are showing a time stamp of later than midday for today, anyone any clues as to what's going on? Windows time on PC to my knowledge seems to be set correctly.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Nov 22 23:21:35 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:21:35 +1100
Subject: Windows XP SP2, 3 or Windows Vista Install Disk
In-Reply-To: <4843E995-94A5-416D-9602-12F6C88ACAF8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <4843E995-94A5-416D-9602-12F6C88ACAF8@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19943A2E-FF31-46E1-92EF-44B6901D9A82@internode.on.net>

Yep, get back to me privately if you still need this.


On 23/11/2010, at 6:57 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello all
> 
> Can anybody possibly help with an image of a Windows XP or Vista install  Disk Image?  I guess it'd have to be a retail edition or an OEM edition of XP, licenses for both of which we have.  We need to install XP under Boot Camp, but for some unknown reason, after we do the first restart post-format of the partition, we get a "Disc Error" message.  This is creating horrendous issues for us.
> 
> If anybody could help with an ISO image it would be appreciate.   I don't think we're breaking any laws by doing that, as we're not asking for anybody else's serial numbers.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Nov 23 03:18:41 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:18:41 -0600
Subject: One bit of good news 
Message-ID: <201011230318.oAN3IfFZ057294@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
>It's as good as new now, apart from the fact that it 
> doesn't seem to like paper whose edge has been prepared for a comb 
> binder. I don't know whether that is normal or not. But when we turned 
> the paper  around and gave it the flat edge instead at the point where 
> the paper mechanism is, it went in fine most of the time and just worked.

	That is probably normal. Notice how it stops rolling
when you reach the top edge of the paper as you in CERT a new
page?

	There is a spring-loaded glide hidden inside the edge of
the case such that it rests on the edge of the paper. When you
roll it all the way in, this glide falls down off the upper left
corder of the paper and in doing so drops a dog that acts like a
ratchet to prevent the platten from turning any further back. You
sure don't want your paper to disappear in to the Brailler
because you will have a grand time getting it back out.

	Anyway, the slots in the paper for the comb binder are
probably just lined up with that glide and it is dropping in to
them which activates the break.

	You probably have already thought of this, but you might
loosen the left margin and slide it over to the left if you can
afford the wider left margin. That might get the slots out from
under the glide which would allow it to work normally.

	Just loosen the nuralled coller on the left margin when
there is no paper in the Perkins and slide it to the left a bit,
then tighten it back down. I bet that solves the problem at the
expense of lines with maybe one less character each.

Martin

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov 23 04:10:31 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:10:31 -0600
Subject: One bit of good news 
In-Reply-To: <201011230318.oAN3IfFZ057294@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011230318.oAN3IfFZ057294@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <8829392C-9127-48DD-8727-13E926E7F130@softcon.com>

I put punched paper into my brailler all the time, and have no problem  
with it.  We sometimes have tohand braille covers, title pages, or  
just notes, that are too short to bother putting into the translator,  
and I've had no problem with the 19-hole comb-type paper in my  
brailler, so no, that's not normal.
However, if flipping it over works, then I'd not worry about it,  
unless you're required to braille pages for a book, which it doesn''t  
sound like you do, so there should be no problem.
My braille printer however, sometimes does have trouble with the  
prepunched paper, and I've had to disable the paper-out detector,  
because it refused to print on the paper, always insisting it didn't  
have any paper inserted.  I tried covering the paper sensor with tape,  
but it didn't help, so I just finally had to turn it off in all my  
configurations I have prestored in the printer.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 06:32:12 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:32:12 -0800
Subject: Costs of suing file sharers could skyrocket soon 
Message-ID: <D6AD229D-298F-4094-AAB9-D769970EA70A@gmail.com>

If this came through sorry. I've been having mail issues!

Will the case win? Will they sue everyone in there home areas? read more: http://bit.ly/dS5oJq

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 06:52:32 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:52:32 -0800
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <FD71EEFA-A5DB-41E1-8E9F-F89D77CDBA23@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
	<DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B26426F8-51DF-47A3-89C7-ABF00BBDCB25@gmail.com>
	<FD71EEFA-A5DB-41E1-8E9F-F89D77CDBA23@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <52EF74EB-FED3-4A20-8D3A-1D51158E71C3@gmail.com>

No it does not. you need to choose full install not upgrade and elect to have the partition which should be ntfs wiped. then it should install. I did this with my  upgrade cd. I had a link inthe windows secrets archives on how to do this. It is from last aug if you want to google for it.

S
On Nov 22, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> hello Sarah
> 
> This is the whole point!  The key Microsoft sent us is coming up as "Invalid".  It isn't saying it is a wrong product key, it's telling us the key is "Invalid".  But I can't get Microsoft to listen.  They keep whining about another system has to be installed first.
> 
> They're a pack of idiots.
> 
> 
> On 22 Nov 2010, at 21:30, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> Ok try this then. I did this and it works with my upgrade cd.
>> 
>> 1. start the install.
>> 
>> 2. ecept eh licence agreement
>> 
>> 3. choose clean install and follow the prompts
>> 
>> Now activate windows and it should work.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 10:50:11 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:50:11 +0000
Subject: One bit of good news 
In-Reply-To: <201011230318.oAN3IfFZ057294@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011230318.oAN3IfFZ057294@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <36F3CB5A-BB4F-4585-9F3A-82A11C6ABD40@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin


On 23 Nov 2010, at 03:18, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> ? That is probably normal. Notice how it stops rolling
> when you reach the top edge of the paper as you in CERT a new
> page?
> 
Yes, that's what we thought. Gordon says the key action isn't quite as firm as it was. But it works fine.

> ? There is a spring-loaded glide hidden inside the edge of
> the case such that it rests on the edge of the paper. When you
> roll it all the way in, this glide falls down off the upper left
> corder of the paper and in doing so drops a dog that acts like a
> ratchet to prevent the platten from turning any further back. You
> sure don't want your paper to disappear in to the Brailler
> because you will have a grand time getting it back out.
> 
That happened to us once and it was a nightmare to retrieve the whole sheet without tearing it and leaving pieces inside the machine. We managed it eventually; but you're right it isn't something you want to happen. :)

> ? You probably have already thought of this, but you might
> loosen the left margin and slide it over to the left if you can
> afford the wider left margin. That might get the slots out from
> under the glide which would allow it to work normally.
> 
That's how we got around the problem.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 11:01:05 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 11:01:05 +0000
Subject: Caveat emptor; [Let The Buyer Beware]
In-Reply-To: <52EF74EB-FED3-4A20-8D3A-1D51158E71C3@gmail.com>
References: <10AA69B9-FFC8-4C3D-9D26-0F8DD2DC7FA5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6C51F9B5-059A-4400-8A2A-E2AE45F08CAE@gmail.com>
	<61C5EFD0-98DD-4F4B-A697-D2E10700411D@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<ED589FBF-2524-4868-8CC7-18E424E9E15F@gmail.com>
	<DED137C1-A69C-442E-832F-7AE35E20C01B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B26426F8-51DF-47A3-89C7-ABF00BBDCB25@gmail.com>
	<FD71EEFA-A5DB-41E1-8E9F-F89D77CDBA23@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<52EF74EB-FED3-4A20-8D3A-1D51158E71C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5ADFFC5-B8F9-40C0-8C09-EBA89613FF6D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 23 Nov 2010, at 06:52, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? No it does not. you need to choose full install not upgrade and elect to have the partition which should be ntfs wiped. then it should install. I did this with my  upgrade cd. I had a link inthe windows secrets archives on how to do this. It is from last aug if you want to google for it.

That's what we did Sarah. We had no Windows installed whatsoever, and when we tried to enter the Microsoft key, a genuinely purchased key I mean, it comes up as invalid.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Nov 23 12:13:00 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:13:00 -0600
Subject: One bit of good news 
Message-ID: <201011231213.oANCD068060321@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I've had my Perkins since about 1962 or so and it has
only needed minor cleaning to keep going. Travis commented on
not having trouble with punched pages. I think it is touchy
about this as my Braille writer generally does not but on rare
occasions, it has stopped when rolling in a sheet of paper that
had been punched for a three-ring binder. The glide that trips
the end-of-paper lock is curved so it gently drops down and then
rises back up if you hit a hole. I guess if the hole is big
enough, it drops down far enough to stop the platton.

	On the general topic of Perkins repair, I used to work
at the Oklahoma Library for the Blind in the mid seventies and
my boss went through the Perkins repair program and we became an
authorized repair station. We had a special washing facility in
which one could place an entire Perkins Brailler minus the
plastic keys and knobs in to a sink which was connected to a
tank of cleaning fluid and a recirculating pump. It wasn't too
different than washing dishes. One would get the hose and run
the fluid stream over all the parts to wash off the sands of
time, so to speak.

	I seem to recall that the liquid did not damage the
rubber roller but the plastic parts had to come off as it would
ruin the nice finish on them as a lot of petrochemicals will do
to plastic.

	I don't remember the chemical name of the fluid, but it
was green in color, probably not so green for the environment,
had a very strong but not too unpleasant smell and really did
the job. It was also extremely volitile and had a very low
ignition temperature. I bet it was doing a number on our central
nervous systems, also, but probably not as badly as some of the
solvents of earlier years. At least it was the mid seventies and
people had started worrying about the ozone layer and chemical
exposures to some degree.

	After washing out all the dust, it was time for
replacement of any broken parts which there were usually none to
very few, and then lubrication of the mechanism before we put
the bottom and all the plastic stuff back on.

	I will tell the list about my accidental destruction of
one of those punching machines that makes slots for a comb
binder in a following message, but let's stick to the Perkins
Brailler.

	Those machines are a mechanical marvel which is why they
do last 50 years if they have any care taken of them at all.

	I think the design of them goes back to the late fifties
and they are just good no-nonsense machines.

Martin

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Yes, that's what we thought. Gordon says the key action isn't quite as 
> firm as it was. But it works fine.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Nov 23 12:46:43 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:46:43 -0600
Subject: Martin McCormick, Saboteur, Well not Really
Message-ID: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote about paper punched for a
comb binder in an earlier message and memories flooded back from
an earlier time.

	Between 1974 and 1976, I worked full-time at the
Oklahoma Library for the Blind in Oklahoma City as more or less
an electronics technician all though my official title was
"Utility Office Worker" which is a general term for one who does
whatever needs doing at the time. I got to do some very
interesting stuff such as design and build a controller for
broadcast automation as one of our services was the reading of
local newspapers over a special FM station that only authorized
persons were supposed to listen to.

	While that was an exciting challenge, I also had to do
some other things that can best be described as mind-numbingly
dull.

	At the bottom of the list was answering the telephone
when the lady that normally did a nice cheerful job of that was
unavailable. Just above that task was punching those comb binder
slots in either Braille paper or that plastic Thermoform
material that is used for Braille copying.

	Anyway, the machine we had for punching those slots was
rather simple to use. Just feed in two or three sheets of paper,
line them up nicely against the stop, and pull a large handle on
the right which sequentially punched all the slots. It made a
satisfying rrrrip sound as the little rectangular windows were
punched out of the edges of the pages.

	One day, I had a huge bunch of those to do and so I
tried 4 sheets at a time instead of 2 or 3. It worked. Why not
5? Five worked and I figured that as long as they all fit under
the bar, it must be all right so let's try 6. Six pages? no
problem. They punched just fine.

	I think I got up to seven but when I pulled the lever,
there was no RRRIP sound, but instead, a loud metallic CRACK!
sound plus a shower of small parts that were liberated as one of
the bigger parts physically broke.

	The frame of that machine was an aluminum casting and I
had exceeded its mechanical strength.

	I really did feel very badly about that as I am normally
in the fix-it business. Anybody can ruin something so that just
made me one of the folks we usually have to clean up after.

	I did not get in to trouble over the incident but it
made me more aware of making sure that we use tools properly so
they are there for the next time.

	We had to buy a new punching machine and my boss later
told me that the one I had destroyed actually had what appeared
to be old cracks in the casting so I guess I nicely finished the job,
but leaving the wood pile higher than one finds it is really the
best policy.

Martin

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 13:44:10 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:44:10 +0000
Subject: One bit of good news 
In-Reply-To: <201011231213.oANCD068060321@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011231213.oANCD068060321@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <225305E9-3303-4E83-AB40-715D3EDCDA37@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 23 Nov 2010, at 12:13, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? 	I've had my Perkins since about 1962 or so and it has
> only needed minor cleaning to keep going.

That's some achievement; but I'm guessing that it's made to different standards to how they are made today. I'm told that some of the components are plastic now rather than metal so that they can reduce the costs and the weight of the machines.

> ? Travis commented on not having trouble with punched pages. I think it is touchy
> about this as my Braille writer generally does not but on rare
> occasions, it has stopped when rolling in a sheet of paper that
> had been punched for a three-ring binder. The glide that trips
> the end-of-paper lock is curved so it gently drops down and then
> rises back up if you hit a hole. I guess if the hole is big
> enough, it drops down far enough to stop the platton.
> 
We have no trouble with punched paper. Our problem was with comb-binding slots in the paper. Gordon is going to get us a wire-binder to see if that is easier than comb-binding which we think will also be cheaper.

At the moment he's having to manually Braille reports for me because we still haven't found a way of doing Braille translation with the mac because we can't connect our embosser. That's why we need Windows we think because nothing seems to be able to touch Duxberry in terms of ease of use and versatility. We have a license for DBT 10.1 and the upcoming 11.0 so it seems silly to waste it.

Lynne


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Nov 23 14:40:26 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:40:26 -0500
Subject: Martin McCormick, Saboteur, Well not Really
In-Reply-To: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>

Martin,

I guess times haven't really changed all that much. i do a lot of phone 
answering and whole stupid punching myself. sigh Sometimes my boss is 
nice enough to buy the pre-=punched paper for me, though.

Mary

Quoting Martin McCormick <martin at x.it.okstate.edu>:

> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote about paper punched for a
> comb binder in an earlier message and memories flooded back from
> an earlier time.
>
> 	Between 1974 and 1976, I worked full-time at the
> Oklahoma Library for the Blind in Oklahoma City as more or less
> an electronics technician all though my official title was
> "Utility Office Worker" which is a general term for one who does
> whatever needs doing at the time. I got to do some very
> interesting stuff such as design and build a controller for
> broadcast automation as one of our services was the reading of
> local newspapers over a special FM station that only authorized
> persons were supposed to listen to.
>
> 	While that was an exciting challenge, I also had to do
> some other things that can best be described as mind-numbingly
> dull.
>
> 	At the bottom of the list was answering the telephone
> when the lady that normally did a nice cheerful job of that was
> unavailable. Just above that task was punching those comb binder
> slots in either Braille paper or that plastic Thermoform
> material that is used for Braille copying.
>
> 	Anyway, the machine we had for punching those slots was
> rather simple to use. Just feed in two or three sheets of paper,
> line them up nicely against the stop, and pull a large handle on
> the right which sequentially punched all the slots. It made a
> satisfying rrrrip sound as the little rectangular windows were
> punched out of the edges of the pages.
>
> 	One day, I had a huge bunch of those to do and so I
> tried 4 sheets at a time instead of 2 or 3. It worked. Why not
> 5? Five worked and I figured that as long as they all fit under
> the bar, it must be all right so let's try 6. Six pages? no
> problem. They punched just fine.
>
> 	I think I got up to seven but when I pulled the lever,
> there was no RRRIP sound, but instead, a loud metallic CRACK!
> sound plus a shower of small parts that were liberated as one of
> the bigger parts physically broke.
>
> 	The frame of that machine was an aluminum casting and I
> had exceeded its mechanical strength.
>
> 	I really did feel very badly about that as I am normally
> in the fix-it business. Anybody can ruin something so that just
> made me one of the folks we usually have to clean up after.
>
> 	I did not get in to trouble over the incident but it
> made me more aware of making sure that we use tools properly so
> they are there for the next time.
>
> 	We had to buy a new punching machine and my boss later
> told me that the one I had destroyed actually had what appeared
> to be old cracks in the casting so I guess I nicely finished the job,
> but leaving the wood pile higher than one finds it is really the
> best policy.
>
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's
> dedicated web pages located at
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>
>




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 15:00:32 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:00:32 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

When I transcribe a report for Lynne I always punch the paper in bulk.  Yes, sometimes we do use pre-punched paper but in general we buy it in bulk and it's cheaper to buy unpunched.

For example we buy about 5000 sheets in a batch and the punched stuff is twice as expensive as the same A4 paper unpunched.

Gordon

On 23 Nov 2010, at 14:40, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
> I guess times haven't really changed all that much. i do a lot of phone answering and whole stupid punching myself. sigh Sometimes my boss is nice enough to buy the pre-=punched paper for me, though.


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Nov 23 15:48:24 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:48:24 -0500
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>

Hi Gordon,

Well, we have a cheap binding machine. You can only punch 3 sheets at a 
time, or else it won't punch all the way through. We don't have the 
time, and I don't have the patience, for that. Not when there are 
hundreds of pages to bind.

Mary

Quoting Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hi Mary
>
> When I transcribe a report for Lynne I always punch the paper in
> bulk.  Yes, sometimes we do use pre-punched paper but in general we
> buy it in bulk and it's cheaper to buy unpunched.
>
> For example we buy about 5000 sheets in a batch and the punched stuff
> is twice as expensive as the same A4 paper unpunched.
>
> Gordon



From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 15:58:38 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:58:38 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <23C5BA0F-68C1-4DE7-BD5F-ACA8F240D437@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Mary

On 23 Nov 2010, at 15:48, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? Well, we have a cheap binding machine. You can only punch 3 sheets at a time, or else it won't punch all the way through. We don't have the time, and I don't have the patience, for that. Not when there are hundreds of pages to bind.

Which begs the question, why did they buy that machine?  My original comb binder is a manual machine which will also act as a single hole punch.  It will handle about 8 sheets at once, depending upon the thickness, of course.  Typically, we use 160GS paper which we find works well for single and double-sided interpoint Braille.

It's a bit tedious when you're comb binding as I do when i prepare reports for Lynne's clients.  So I'm probably going to get us a wire binder this week as I've found us an electronic one which will handle up to 500 sheets per bind.  It also handles the very small to very large wires and I know where I can get my hands on those at reasonable prices.

Anyway, I'm getting off the point.  I find the whole preparation very laborious when I have to manually transcribe reports as I'm having too at the moment.  So we really do need to find a solution to this irritating Windows problem.  I have more to write about that in another message in a moment.

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 16:03:59 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:03:59 +0000
Subject: Upgrading to Windows
Message-ID: <D9441ACC-5098-4B2A-B963-D348927A6062@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi all

OK, this gets more and more crazy!  I just tried to upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 7 using what is distributed by Microsoft as an upgrade DVD.  The process started, and all the temporary junk was copied.  Then, all of a sudden, I got the message that I cannot upgrade directly from Windows XP to Windows 7, and that I need to use what they call their easy transfer utility.

This is insane!  Why then are Microsoft selling an Upgrade edition of Windows 7?  What on earth do you have to do to get this thing to work?  Will it only work for Vista?

I'm starting to remember why I initially became totally disillusioned with everything Microsoft.  But for the fact that we need access to Duxberry and to Dolphin Publisher, I'd just dump the lot!

Gordon


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 17:46:39 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:46:39 +0000
Subject: Success! Holy hell fire ... success!!!
Message-ID: <4E924DF2-AA3C-41F4-99D3-5FBF9F7ED4DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello to anybody who is interested in our fun and games with Windows 7,  & to anybody who is not, hit the delete key now!

"Well", me-thought!  Uz will have just one more crack at it before uz completes the letter of destruction form from Microsoft.  So did uz load up Windows 7 what uz did haved already pre-ionstalled.  Then, did uz enter uz's product key in exactly the same way as what uz did before when said evil monster Mictrosoft's servers spat it back at uz with an invalid key error.

This time, when uz did hit the "Activate" button, uz did get a message wot did sayz "Activation Successful".  So now, uz did sit there and uz did just wonder why did Microsoft spit the darn thing back in uz's faces before.

Be that as it may, uz now does avv uz's copy of Windows 7 activated so finally, uz can start setting up uz's applications and maybe uz can do some Braille stuffs az well.

Oh yeah, and to all yoo lot over in loud-lound-land, 'appy fanksgivving!

Alright, I'll stop being silly now, but I had to deal with my frustration somehow because Microsoft has wasted so much of my time by refusing this key and suddenly changing their mind.  Well, I guess the server must be female. ;-)



From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Nov 23 17:52:22 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:52:22 -0500
Subject: Success! Holy hell fire ... success!!!
In-Reply-To: <4E924DF2-AA3C-41F4-99D3-5FBF9F7ED4DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <4E924DF2-AA3C-41F4-99D3-5FBF9F7ED4DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101123125222.9mnx05e3msw4ccg8@webmail.iu.edu>

Gordon, you are a turkey head! (in the spirit of Thanksgiving, you see) lol

Seriously, I'm glad Microsoft decided to accept your key. That's really nifty!

Mary

Quoting Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello to anybody who is interested in our fun and games with Windows
> 7,  & to anybody who is not, hit the delete key now!
>
> "Well", me-thought!  Uz will have just one more crack at it before uz
> completes the letter of destruction form from Microsoft.  So did uz
> load up Windows 7 what uz did haved already pre-ionstalled.  Then,
> did uz enter uz's product key in exactly the same way as what uz did
> before when said evil monster Mictrosoft's servers spat it back at uz
> with an invalid key error.
>
> This time, when uz did hit the "Activate" button, uz did get a
> message wot did sayz "Activation Successful".  So now, uz did sit
> there and uz did just wonder why did Microsoft spit the darn thing
> back in uz's faces before.
>
> Be that as it may, uz now does avv uz's copy of Windows 7 activated
> so finally, uz can start setting up uz's applications and maybe uz
> can do some Braille stuffs az well.
>
> Oh yeah, and to all yoo lot over in loud-lound-land, 'appy fanksgivving!
>
> Alright, I'll stop being silly now, but I had to deal with my
> frustration somehow because Microsoft has wasted so much of my time
> by refusing this key and suddenly changing their mind.  Well, I guess
> the server must be female. ;-)
>
>
>




From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 17:59:53 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:59:53 +0000
Subject: Success! Holy hell fire ... success!!!
In-Reply-To: <20101123125222.9mnx05e3msw4ccg8@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <4E924DF2-AA3C-41F4-99D3-5FBF9F7ED4DF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123125222.9mnx05e3msw4ccg8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <B30E4C63-D1B1-46DD-83F4-4470D0FD6F7F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

Lynne is calling me worse than that, but for some reason she is laughing. :)  Yes, it's such a relief that finally I can start doing something right.  Although the Keyspan adapter might be a problem, I won't know until I try.  But we have invested in RollBack and when Diskeeper finally get their proverbial act together we might be able to use that as well.  We still haven't got our license file from them, despite their insistence to the contrary.  But anyway, hopefully Duxbery and Dolphin won't spoil the party  Guess I may as well have a little look at Thunderbird as well, since no default Mail client comes pre-installed with 7.  I don't mind that, because finally, it means the end of Outlook Repress!

Gordon


On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:52, Mary Stores wrote:

> Gordon, you are a turkey head! (in the spirit of Thanksgiving, you see) lol
> 
> Seriously, I'm glad Microsoft decided to accept your key. That's really nifty!
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Gordon Smith <gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk>:
> 
>> Hello to anybody who is interested in our fun and games with Windows
>> 7,  & to anybody who is not, hit the delete key now!
>> 
>> "Well", me-thought!  Uz will have just one more crack at it before uz
>> completes the letter of destruction form from Microsoft.  So did uz
>> load up Windows 7 what uz did haved already pre-ionstalled.  Then,
>> did uz enter uz's product key in exactly the same way as what uz did
>> before when said evil monster Mictrosoft's servers spat it back at uz
>> with an invalid key error.
>> 
>> This time, when uz did hit the "Activate" button, uz did get a
>> message wot did sayz "Activation Successful".  So now, uz did sit
>> there and uz did just wonder why did Microsoft spit the darn thing
>> back in uz's faces before.
>> 
>> Be that as it may, uz now does avv uz's copy of Windows 7 activated
>> so finally, uz can start setting up uz's applications and maybe uz
>> can do some Braille stuffs az well.
>> 
>> Oh yeah, and to all yoo lot over in loud-lound-land, 'appy fanksgivving!
>> 
>> Alright, I'll stop being silly now, but I had to deal with my
>> frustration somehow because Microsoft has wasted so much of my time
>> by refusing this key and suddenly changing their mind.  Well, I guess
>> the server must be female. ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov 23 20:41:47 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:41:47 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>

The thermoform corporation charges the same amount for prepunched comb  
type paper as it does for nonpunched paper, so I always purchase the  
punched paper, because even if I don't need th punched part, it  
doesn't hurt to have it there.
I still have most of a box of paper, so shouldn't need any for a  
while, but if my mmemory serves correctly, (which is questionable  
these days) a box of paper was around 44 bucks.  Have to check their  
site to see if it's gone up since I last bought some.  We haven't  
transcribed much stuff lately, so haven't needed to buy more, so am a  
bit out of touch with current pricing schemes.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Nov 23 21:11:08 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:11:08 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Travis

Actually I don't get mine from a blindness specific organisation.  I find that, contrary to popular believ, they tend to charge more for their products than most other places do in the main stream where equivalents exist, of course.

But obviously we're talking about a totally different market over in the UK to what you have in the US and possibly the reverse is true over there.

My employer actually put me on to this warehouse where you can bulk buy at radically reduced rates.  I just checked a while ago when I was in the garage and currently we have actually 3 boxes of packs of A4 180GSM manilla paper in stock.  Each box contains 5000 sheets in packs of 100.  So I think it will be a while before we need to buy more.  In somewhat lesser supply are 21-ring comb binders.  I could never find any of the 20 ring binders anywhere, but fortunately our binders both allow you to adjust so that 21 ring binders fit nicely with A4 paper in portrait mode.

I've found us a deluxe wirebinding machine, which handles up to 250 sheets of 140GSM paper per volume, which is probably going to be about 100 sheets of 160 or 80 sheets of Interpoint Brailled 180GSM paper per volume.  But that's going to be absolutely fine.  Our reports are way way smaller than that, thank goodness! ;-)

On 23 Nov 2010, at 20:41, Travis Siegel wrote:

> The thermoform corporation charges the same amount for prepunched comb type paper as it does for nonpunched paper, so I always purchase the punched paper, because even if I don't need th punched part, it doesn't hurt to have it there.
> I still have most of a box of paper, so shouldn't need any for a while, but if my mmemory serves correctly, (which is questionable these days) a box of paper was around 44 bucks.  Have to check their site to see if it's gone up since I last bought some.  We haven't transcribed much stuff lately, so haven't needed to buy more, so am a bit out of touch with current pricing schemes.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov 23 23:24:27 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:24:27 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>

I had always thought that buying from commercial paper companies would  
be cheaper, but could never figure out what kind of paper braille  
paper is.  80 pound, 100 pound?  I was never sure.  Purchasing from  
American thermoform was just the simplest result of having no idea  
what stock the paper was.
American thermoform, seedlings, rfb, and other braille book producers  
never mention what kind of paper they use, so I never could figure out  
what it was.  Here it's done by pounds, though I think I've since  
heard that 80 pound paper is the thin stuff that works with braille,  
but is the kind of thingyou'd use for notes or something, since it  
doesn't hold the braille well.  100 pound paper is what you'd want to  
use for books and the like, but again, this is hearsay, so could be  
incorrect.  If you have any idea what the stock is, I'd sure  
appreciate it.  Then I can do some digging to see if it's possible to  
purchase it cheaper.  American thermoform is good to us, so it's not  
critical we find another supplier for braille paper, but if you know  
of a substitute for the peel off sticky backed stuff we use for the  
board books, labels and the like, (it's some sort of acrilic I think)  
I'd sure appreciate some other place to purchase that in bulk, atc  
charges 35 bucks for 50 sheets.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 00:37:40 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 00:37:40 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

I will top post. There are several different sticky-backed label thicknesses but I'm sure a Google would be able to show you some way to convert Metric Grams into the US Pound system that you use.

Lynne

On 23 Nov 2010, at 23:24, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I had always thought that buying from commercial paper companies would be cheaper, but could never figure out what kind of paper braille paper is.  80 pound, 100 pound?  I was never sure.  Purchasing from American thermoform was just the simplest result of having no idea what stock the paper was.
> American thermoform, seedlings, rfb, and other braille book producers never mention what kind of paper they use, so I never could figure out what it was.  Here it's done by pounds, though I think I've since heard that 80 pound paper is the thin stuff that works with braille, but is the kind of thingyou'd use for notes or something, since it doesn't hold the braille well.  100 pound paper is what you'd want to use for books and the like, but again, this is hearsay, so could be incorrect.  If you have any idea what the stock is, I'd sure appreciate it.  Then I can do some digging to see if it's possible to purchase it cheaper.  American thermoform is good to us, so it's not critical we find another supplier for braille paper, but if you know of a substitute for the peel off sticky backed stuff we use for the board books, labels and the like, (it's some sort of acrilic I think) I'd sure appreciate some other place to purchase that in bulk, atc charges 35 bucks for 50 sheets.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 04:11:49 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:11:49 -0800
Subject: Martin McCormick, Saboteur, Well not Really
In-Reply-To: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <E62595F2-CCF3-4FA2-A91D-75279EEE3317@gmail.com>

Yeah I'm known for punching about 8 or so sheets of braill paper at a time if I buy braille paper which I have to soon.

S
On Nov 23, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote about paper punched for a
> comb binder in an earlier message and memories flooded back from
> an earlier time.
> 
> 	Between 1974 and 1976, I worked full-time at the
> Oklahoma Library for the Blind in Oklahoma City as more or less
> an electronics technician all though my official title was
> "Utility Office Worker" which is a general term for one who does
> whatever needs doing at the time. I got to do some very
> interesting stuff such as design and build a controller for
> broadcast automation as one of our services was the reading of
> local newspapers over a special FM station that only authorized
> persons were supposed to listen to.
> 
> 	While that was an exciting challenge, I also had to do
> some other things that can best be described as mind-numbingly
> dull.
> 
> 	At the bottom of the list was answering the telephone
> when the lady that normally did a nice cheerful job of that was
> unavailable. Just above that task was punching those comb binder
> slots in either Braille paper or that plastic Thermoform
> material that is used for Braille copying.
> 
> 	Anyway, the machine we had for punching those slots was
> rather simple to use. Just feed in two or three sheets of paper,
> line them up nicely against the stop, and pull a large handle on
> the right which sequentially punched all the slots. It made a
> satisfying rrrrip sound as the little rectangular windows were
> punched out of the edges of the pages.
> 
> 	One day, I had a huge bunch of those to do and so I
> tried 4 sheets at a time instead of 2 or 3. It worked. Why not
> 5? Five worked and I figured that as long as they all fit under
> the bar, it must be all right so let's try 6. Six pages? no
> problem. They punched just fine.
> 
> 	I think I got up to seven but when I pulled the lever,
> there was no RRRIP sound, but instead, a loud metallic CRACK!
> sound plus a shower of small parts that were liberated as one of
> the bigger parts physically broke.
> 
> 	The frame of that machine was an aluminum casting and I
> had exceeded its mechanical strength.
> 
> 	I really did feel very badly about that as I am normally
> in the fix-it business. Anybody can ruin something so that just
> made me one of the folks we usually have to clean up after.
> 
> 	I did not get in to trouble over the incident but it
> made me more aware of making sure that we use tools properly so
> they are there for the next time.
> 
> 	We had to buy a new punching machine and my boss later
> told me that the one I had destroyed actually had what appeared
> to be old cracks in the casting so I guess I nicely finished the job,
> but leaving the wood pile higher than one finds it is really the
> best policy.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 04:12:36 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:12:36 -0800
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D74C3C50-5B74-412F-B7E2-71726BD993E6@gmail.com>

Interesting! Hmm what I do now is use card stock I buy from office max. cheaper to use. a bit thicker and harder on my hands when I slate but it works.
On Nov 23, 2010, at 7:00 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hi Mary
> 
> When I transcribe a report for Lynne I always punch the paper in bulk.  Yes, sometimes we do use pre-punched paper but in general we buy it in bulk and it's cheaper to buy unpunched.
> 
> For example we buy about 5000 sheets in a batch and the punched stuff is twice as expensive as the same A4 paper unpunched.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> On 23 Nov 2010, at 14:40, Mary Stores wrote:
>> 
>> I guess times haven't really changed all that much. i do a lot of phone answering and whole stupid punching myself. sigh Sometimes my boss is nice enough to buy the pre-=punched paper for me, though.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Nov 24 04:32:14 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 22:32:14 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper 
Message-ID: <201011240432.oAO4WEqY065673@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I  got a hand full of sheets of 100-pound paper from our
main Operations room. To explain, I T at Oklahoma State
University deals with computing and information issues and
practices for our roughly thirty-thousand student campus plus
several remote campuses scattered over Oklahoma. We have a large
server plant that used to house the big IBM main frame computers
that OSU used over the decades. With each new main frame, the
main frame got smaller and smaller so lots of other servers, etc
got moved in to that space but that room is a hub for
operational activities and they have lots of various supplies
for all things computational. I once asked if they had any card
stock which I knew would be good Braille paper and they showed
me some 100-pound paper they use for making signs and other
sturdy paper uses. It is Braille paper for sure. It feels
exactly like the higher quality Braille paper so 100-pound paper
is it.

	There is also something called "charger tag" which is
used in biology, but don't ask me for what because I don't know.

	The charger tag is maybe a little bit heavier but I also
seem to remember that it is not quite the right dimension. I had
to use a paper cutter to make it fit in to a normal notebook.
That was all 40 years ago so I don't know if charger tag exists
today but it sure worked for class notes back then, in fact, it
was overkill.

	Another name I have heard for Braille paper is "craft
paper." It is a little thinner than 100-pound paper and it is
also brown. Actually a lot of paper starts life brown and is
bleached to make it white. The craft paper is cheaper but won't
look very professional if that matters.

Travis Siegel writes:
> I had always thought that buying from commercial paper companies would be
> cheaper, but could never figure out what kind of paper braille paper is. 

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Nov 24 04:38:37 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 22:38:37 -0600
Subject: British Braille
Message-ID: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>

	All this talk about Braille paper reminds me of a comment 
Gordon made a long time ago about a Braille embosser which he said was printing
perfectly good British Grade 2 Braille.

	How different is that from Grade 2 American Braille. I
once read some British books about amateur radio. Other than
British language style and spelling and the use of words like
valve for vacuum tube and C O L O U R instead of C O L O R, I
sure don't remember anything that different. It was certainly a
normal read.

Martin

From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 04:44:35 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 04:44:35 +0000
Subject: British Braille
In-Reply-To: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <6A1B3187-48D0-4AF7-8640-20731DB3EADB@blueyonder.co.uk>

I would be interested in knowing this as I am currently learning braille and have just started on grade 2.
On 24 Nov 2010, at 04:38, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	All this talk about Braille paper reminds me of a comment 
> Gordon made a long time ago about a Braille embosser which he said was printing
> perfectly good British Grade 2 Braille.
> 
> 	How different is that from Grade 2 American Braille. I
> once read some British books about amateur radio. Other than
> British language style and spelling and the use of words like
> valve for vacuum tube and C O L O U R instead of C O L O R, I
> sure don't remember anything that different. It was certainly a
> normal read.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 24 08:35:16 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 02:35:16 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
	<B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6443E31D-6ABA-427A-B779-B30FE759AB51@softcon.com>


On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Travis
>
> I will top post. There are several different sticky-backed label  
> thicknesses but I'm sure a Google would be able to show you some way  
> to convert Metric Grams into the US Pound system that you use.

Lynne, these were two different issues.
First, the peel-off sticky-back stuff is the costly stuff, that's what  
I'm trying to find another place to purchase if there is such a thing.

The braille paper is what I was trying to figure out what kind to  
purchase to use for braille paper.
Most folks sell paper in grades such as 80 pound, 100 pound, and so  
on, the pounds of the paper is how much the paper weighs in stacks of  
reams or something similar, I don't acctually know the details of how  
they rate these things.
What I'm asking is what pound paper is braille paper, rated at, so  
that I could (possibly) find it elsewhere, though that's not really an  
issue at the moment, because I don't mind paying what I do for it at  
the moment, but that's mostly because I have no idea what kind of  
paper it actually is, so can't compare to see if what I'm paying is a  
decent price or not.
Does that make any sense?
2 different questions (all rolled into one)
1. what the heck is the stick-backed peel off stuff (acrilic? plastic?  
something else?
2. what rating is braille paper (in theus it's rated in pounds per  
ream (512 sheets) or something similar, so w/o knowing what the rating  
for braille paper is, it's impossible to know if I'm paying too much  
or not.


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 24 08:40:22 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 02:40:22 -0600
Subject: British Braille
In-Reply-To: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <2B509A9C-7B51-4BCB-85C6-A42962302145@softcon.com>

Martin, the largest difference between american and british braille is  
2 things.
First, British braille doesn't use capital marks, (no dot six to show  
the next character is capitalized) and second, british braille uses  
the first contraction, regardless of syllable breaks.  As a result,  
instead of writing near with an n and an e, then the ar contraction,  
british braille writes the n, the ea contraction, then the r.
It's of course still readable to us, but it just looks weird, no  
capitals, and wrong contractions throws me off, but I'd wager american  
braille looks weird to our british friends, so guess it's all  
perspective.
But, that begs the question,
Dane, what system does Australia use?
British, American, or something else?
I've never seen an Australian prepared text, but I'd wager it's on the  
british system if I had to guess, but guess we'll have to wait for  
someone to verify. :)


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 14:29:29 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:29:29 +0000
Subject: British Braille
In-Reply-To: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <57472D48-CC61-450C-BD2C-7A261B0C65A0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

British Braille has changed a lot over the years and now, it's gone down the road of US Braille.

For instance, we used to have a rule that where a word contained two contracted possibilities, the first contraction would always take priority.

Let me give you an example.  The word "Dear" is written in Braille now as the letter D, the letter E and an A R contraction.  In old style British Braille, it would be written like:  The letter D, the dot 2 "E A" contraction and then the letter R.

The change caused a lot of confusion for some older Braille readers in this country and they objected strongly to it being enforced on us without consultation.  I was amongst that number, if truth be told.

Another thing about British Braille traditionally was the complete absence of any indication of capital letters.  Ut used to be the case that the school of thought was that since there's no such thing as a capital letter in Braille, it wasn't necessary to use the dot 6 and double dot 6 indicators.

That too has changed in a lot of cases.  Certainly where you're dealing with computation material it's often necessary to know where capital letters are.  But traditional British Braille had no use for them.

I think the indication of paragraphs might also be different in the US to British Braille, but I'm not sure about that.

In British Braille, a paragraph is indicated by a double space indentation at the start of the first line in the paragraph.

I've seen a lot of books written by various organisations who indicated paragraphs by double line feeds.  I can sort of see the logic in that, as it's what's used in printed material.  It's just different, that's all.

But as I said, the main thing I don't like about modern day Braille is the implementation of the contraction rules.  I personally think that the older logic was far more easy to understand.  Certainly it was simpler to teach.

Gordon

On 24 Nov 2010, at 04:38, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	All this talk about Braille paper reminds me of a comment 
> Gordon made a long time ago about a Braille embosser which he said was printing
> perfectly good British Grade 2 Braille.
> 
> 	How different is that from Grade 2 American Braille. I
> once read some British books about amateur radio. Other than
> British language style and spelling and the use of words like
> valve for vacuum tube and C O L O U R instead of C O L O R, I
> sure don't remember anything that different. It was certainly a
> normal read.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 14:33:46 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:33:46 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <6443E31D-6ABA-427A-B779-B30FE759AB51@softcon.com>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
	<B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6443E31D-6ABA-427A-B779-B30FE759AB51@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <22B19294-3AD5-43F0-A9F5-049706BCF028@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Braille paper is actually a false name that people use.  There's really no such thing as "Braille paper".  its proper name is "Manilla Paper".  But again you can actually Braille on more or less any kind of paper as long as your machine can take it.  There are some embossers around which will more or less Braille on toilet paper if you wanted that. :)

On 24 Nov 2010, at 08:35, Travis Siegel wrote:

> The braille paper is what I was trying to figure out what kind to purchase to use for braille paper.


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 14:34:54 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:34:54 +0000
Subject: British Braille
In-Reply-To: <2B509A9C-7B51-4BCB-85C6-A42962302145@softcon.com>
References: <201011240438.oAO4cbmq065717@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<2B509A9C-7B51-4BCB-85C6-A42962302145@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D22834F6-2449-4733-A658-4184EBC6FA91@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Travis

That thing about the first contraction is no longer correct.

Gordon

On 24 Nov 2010, at 08:40, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Martin, the largest difference between american and british braille is 2 things.
> First, British braille doesn't use capital marks, (no dot six to show the next character is capitalized) and second, british braille uses the first contraction, regardless of syllable breaks.  As a result, instead of writing near with an n and an e, then the ar contraction, british braille writes the n, the ea contraction, then the r.
> It's of course still readable to us, but it just looks weird, no capitals, and wrong contractions throws me off, but I'd wager american braille looks weird to our british friends, so guess it's all perspective.
> But, that begs the question,
> Dane, what system does Australia use?
> British, American, or something else?
> I've never seen an Australian prepared text, but I'd wager it's on the british system if I had to guess, but guess we'll have to wait for someone to verify. :)


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 24 18:04:56 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 12:04:56 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <22B19294-3AD5-43F0-A9F5-049706BCF028@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
	<B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6443E31D-6ABA-427A-B779-B30FE759AB51@softcon.com>
	<22B19294-3AD5-43F0-A9F5-049706BCF028@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7D0E520B-0681-462C-8AE8-B05C4247D48E@softcon.com>

Yes, I know braille paper is an arbitrary label.  What I don't know,  
is what *kind* of paper the stuff is.
It's impossible to find other sources of paper if I don't know what  
weight /kind/form/what ever the stuff is.  Different weights of paper  
work better or worse depending on it's thickness, quality and purpose.
What I don't know, (for certain) is what grade of paper is generally  
sold as braille paper.  I've been told it's 100 pound paper, but I  
have no way to verify this, which is why I was asking here, but  
apparently, nobody knows, so I'll have to hunt down an office supply  
store somewhere, and see if they have different weights of paper I can  
compare to see what would work for me.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 18:19:16 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:19:16 -0800
Subject: setting up gmail filters
Message-ID: <E4C6660D-A215-4DBC-B4C1-D217E69AE148@gmail.com>

Hello to all. I set up some gmail filters to organize my mail server site. that's fine, but when I write to a list my own messages come back even though I said to delete my own messages right away when it comes. What could I have done wrong, and yes I have the skip inbox box checked.

Take care. Gotta cook a lot today so might be slow in replying!

Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Nov 24 21:28:50 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 21:28:50 +0000
Subject: Manilla Paper
In-Reply-To: <7D0E520B-0681-462C-8AE8-B05C4247D48E@softcon.com>
References: <201011231246.oANCkh4Q060521@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<20101123094026.wsropr6xpwc8044s@webmail.iu.edu>
	<FA1AF717-D04A-4A52-89D5-B7F54A3429B7@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101123104824.pz9i2ch848c0scck@webmail.iu.edu>
	<CEDAFBC9-804D-4124-AAE4-3B054D8863BB@softcon.com>
	<5A451B22-4342-45BB-8CC9-CA537B4D54D3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1B7F6EF5-897B-4BF7-9E46-7291D233245E@softcon.com>
	<B2E40D3D-58FB-4DBE-B858-B30327447F90@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<6443E31D-6ABA-427A-B779-B30FE759AB51@softcon.com>
	<22B19294-3AD5-43F0-A9F5-049706BCF028@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7D0E520B-0681-462C-8AE8-B05C4247D48E@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <355522C4-050F-4096-82E1-BF3AC9DE42CC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Travis

Is there no way you can convert from our GSM to your Pounds system?  If so then Manilla paper as used by Braille embossers and, typically, Perkins user is 160 to 200 GSM.

I'm finding it a little astonishing that you can't find a commercial supplier of Manilla paper at various specifications.  It is widely available in main stream commerce, at least over here.

People call it "Braille Paper" but that's actually just a name that's grown up amongst blind people because that's what they use it for.  But it's honestly not unique to blind people.  Manilla paper of various specifications is widely used.


On 24 Nov 2010, at 18:04, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Yes, I know braille paper is an arbitrary label.  What I don't know, is what *kind* of paper the stuff is.
> It's impossible to find other sources of paper if I don't know what weight /kind/form/what ever the stuff is.  Different weights of paper work better or worse depending on it's thickness, quality and purpose.
> What I don't know, (for certain) is what grade of paper is generally sold as braille paper.  I've been told it's 100 pound paper, but I have no way to verify this, which is why I was asking here, but apparently, nobody knows, so I'll have to hunt down an office supply store somewhere, and see if they have different weights of paper I can compare to see what would work for me.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Nov 24 22:40:04 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:40:04 -0600
Subject: Manilla Paper 
Message-ID: <201011242240.oAOMe4pS072797@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I certainly don't claim to have all the right answers,
but one could go to an office supply shop or somewhere that
sells lots of different kinds of paper with a sheet of Braille
paper or a card of some kind that is the right stuff and ask,
"Do you sell anything like this?"

	I bet they do. It is just not that hard to find.

Martin

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Nov 24 23:08:53 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:08:53 -0600
Subject: British Braille 
Message-ID: <201011242308.oAON8rnd073025@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I am not sure but what American Braille may have also
had similar contraction rules at one time. I remember reading
some story as a small boy in the late fifties in which the story
talked about bears. One of the characters was Mrs Bear and i first
mistakenly read it as Mrs Bright because the EA sign looked
like a Dot 5 in front of the R.

	Braille and me did not get along well at first because
there were no books about interesting things in Braille as far
as I was concerned so I fought it.

	When I got older, I found books about for interesting
things such as science and electronics and reading became a lot
more fun.

	That's still a problem to this very day but electronics
and computers will probably save the day and revitalize Braille
if we can ever devise some sort of tactile display that doesn't
cost as much as a fairly decent used car.

	I think about this problem all the time because I think
there is a solution that either involves new materials such as
piezoelectric polymers or maybe even some non-linear mechanical
principle that would make large numbers of movable dots
inexpensive. Right now, a Braille display is delicate and
hideously expensive as far as I am concerned.

	I don't think the companies are taking advantage of us
so much as it is all the precision manufacturing plus the
limited market for Braille displays that makes the perfect storm
which boils down to they cost too much and break too easily.

Gordon Smith writes:
> British Braille has changed a lot over the years and now, it's gone down 
> the road of US Braille.

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Nov 24 23:41:47 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:41:47 -0600
Subject: emacspeak
Message-ID: <FB17B0F7-B8C9-4B5B-B68C-4FEA6F18CC6E@softcon.com>

I guess the answer to this query is no, but figured I'd ask anyhow.
Anybody here tried to get emacspeak to work on osx?
I realize x11 isn't a large part oof osx programs, but it sure would  
be nice to have an independent screen reader on the mac, since  
voiceover doesn't work at all with x11 code (that I can tell anyhow)  
all x11 programs I've run on my laptop haven't shown the least inkling  
of talking, so paralelling another reader like emacspeak could  
certainly fill the gap.
Guess it's something I'll fiddle with if I can find the space and  
time, (got my hd nearly full all the time with all the junk I'm  
constantly fiddling with here) so thought I'd ask here before tearing  
off on a disk clearing spree to come up with enough space to install  
emacspeak. :)


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 25 18:33:11 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:33:11 -0800
Subject: Nevada court hits copyright troll with Fair Use surprise
Message-ID: <9A19BC74-4903-4D4E-B153-BA1604A7B7AF@gmail.com>

Is this fair? Will the nevada court win? Read more:   http://bit.ly/fC33wb

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Nov 25 19:14:40 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:14:40 +0000
Subject: British Braille 
In-Reply-To: <201011242308.oAON8rnd073025@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201011242308.oAON8rnd073025@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <5AA68477-E520-4711-9E33-002FBE64B245@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Martin

I'm a bit confused as to how you could mistake a dot 2 from a dot 5 but maybe I say that because I'm used to it, it's what I grew up with.  I'm talking about the old Braille rules.

That said, I do absolutely agree with the idea of denoting capital letters, I think that American Braille has that one absolutely right.  It is amazing how poor some blind people's spelling and general literacy is, and much of that is due to Braille.

When we were taught Braille back in the mid sixties, they made us learn the spelling as well, not just the Braille.  That teaching philosophy changed as time went on, and the older teachers retired, and it was to the detriment of blind people in general.

That isn't a criticism of blind people, don't get me wrong.  Far from it actually, it is a criticism of the teachers and the teaching style.  Blind people were kind of taught in their own little world for a while and things got worse.

I'm not sure how the removal of the special schools will eventually pan out. That is something only time will tell.  But I sincerely hope that blind children today receive the educational help they should receive, and aren't left to fall by the wayside.

But I often find it interesting, but sad, when I see blind people's writing, even in an E-Mail.  Some of them, (and I stress that I am talking about some of them, not all), don't even know the difference between their, as in something which belongs to them, and there, as in way over there.  Here, as in here it is, and hear, as in do you hear me?

Braille, just like any other tool, is a wonderful thing and it used to be one's only means of access to the literary world.  But it can also be a source of great deception if not taught in the right way to a child who is blind.

Many people don't seem to be taught to spell, and I think that is a sad thing because it makes later life far more difficult for the person concerned.

On the subject of availability and pricing, to a degree Martin, I can see where you're coming from.  Certainly there are development costs which ultimately, the customer must satisfy.  However, I think that the developer and resellers do indeed take advantage and use the fact that they're dealing in a limited, almost restricted market place.

On 24 Nov 2010, at 23:08, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	I am not sure but what American Braille may have also
> had similar contraction rules at one time. I remember reading
> some story as a small boy in the late fifties in which the story
> talked about bears. One of the characters was Mrs Bear and i first
> mistakenly read it as Mrs Bright because the EA sign looked
> like a Dot 5 in front of the R.
> 
> 	Braille and me did not get along well at first because
> there were no books about interesting things in Braille as far
> as I was concerned so I fought it.
> 
> 	When I got older, I found books about for interesting
> things such as science and electronics and reading became a lot
> more fun.
> 
> 	That's still a problem to this very day but electronics
> and computers will probably save the day and revitalize Braille
> if we can ever devise some sort of tactile display that doesn't
> cost as much as a fairly decent used car.
> 
> 	I think about this problem all the time because I think
> there is a solution that either involves new materials such as
> piezoelectric polymers or maybe even some non-linear mechanical
> principle that would make large numbers of movable dots
> inexpensive. Right now, a Braille display is delicate and
> hideously expensive as far as I am concerned.
> 
> 	I don't think the companies are taking advantage of us
> so much as it is all the precision manufacturing plus the
> limited market for Braille displays that makes the perfect storm
> which boils down to they cost too much and break too easily.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 25 19:30:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:30:14 -0800
Subject: Music Linking Site Raided By Dept. of Homeland Security / ICE |
	TorrentFreak
Message-ID: <2F3B3B34-1AD4-4A6B-B4C0-C41850AC583C@gmail.com>

Are all music sharing sites going to go out of the us? read more:  http://bit.ly/hZ2xTx

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Nov 26 12:36:33 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:36:33 +1100
Subject: external microphones for Zoom H1 recorder
Message-ID: <AE885B0B-3D97-4CF6-B280-BA2BE7AB2188@internode.on.net>

Hi!

Many of you know that I've been enjoying my Zoom H1 recorder for over the last month.  I have been looking for a small stereo microphone I can plug into the recorder which I can clip on to my shirt collar or pocket and I've finally found one in the Son ECM-CS10.

This microphone is powered from the unit it plugs into and I dare say that its probably compatible with the Olympus recorders as well, its certainly compatible with most of the Sony minidisc recorders out there along with the Sony PCMD-50 digital recorder.

Nothing special about this microphone apart from size, less than 3 inches long.

Its not meant for professional use but it will cover many recording applications including lectures and field work, frequency range from 50HZ-16KHZ

Amazon in the U.S. sell the microphone and it sells for around $16.00 so its dead cheap, given this fact you may perhaps consider buying a couple, one to have as a spare, they work quite nicely.

Now just changing tac a little though still on the same subject of microphones, I'm considering buying 2 Audio Technica atr3350 lapel mikes again to use with the Zoom H1 but these are mono microphones so obviously I'm going to need some sort of adapter for the Zoom, anyone got any ideas?

Cheers



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 27 07:24:30 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:24:30 -0800
Subject: external microphones for Zoom H1 recorder
In-Reply-To: <AE885B0B-3D97-4CF6-B280-BA2BE7AB2188@internode.on.net>
References: <AE885B0B-3D97-4CF6-B280-BA2BE7AB2188@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <C5C467B6-D9E2-4318-A479-A3DDAD8828AA@gmail.com>

how wide ishte swtereo stepration? I am verypicky about that as I do most of my stuff with wide sepration of at least 6 inches.

S

On Nov 26, 2010, at 4:36, Dane Trethowan <grtdane at internode.on.net> wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Many of you know that I've been enjoying my Zoom H1 recorder for over the last month.  I have been looking for a small stereo microphone I can plug into the recorder which I can clip on to my shirt collar or pocket and I've finally found one in the Son ECM-CS10.
> 
> This microphone is powered from the unit it plugs into and I dare say that its probably compatible with the Olympus recorders as well, its certainly compatible with most of the Sony minidisc recorders out there along with the Sony PCMD-50 digital recorder.
> 
> Nothing special about this microphone apart from size, less than 3 inches long.
> 
> Its not meant for professional use but it will cover many recording applications including lectures and field work, frequency range from 50HZ-16KHZ
> 
> Amazon in the U.S. sell the microphone and it sells for around $16.00 so its dead cheap, given this fact you may perhaps consider buying a couple, one to have as a spare, they work quite nicely.
> 
> Now just changing tac a little though still on the same subject of microphones, I'm considering buying 2 Audio Technica atr3350 lapel mikes again to use with the Zoom H1 but these are mono microphones so obviously I'm going to need some sort of adapter for the Zoom, anyone got any ideas?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 29 05:07:47 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:07:47 -0800
Subject: Sarcasm Detector has been invented!
Message-ID: <A527E519-1F01-4836-B60C-82ABD62E85BD@gmail.com>

This is an interesting idea. I don't yet see the value in it but read more:  http://bit.ly/dOCgRH

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 29 05:32:50 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:32:50 -0800
Subject: First Electric Cars Have Power Industry Worried
Message-ID: <3B88BD59-750C-45BA-81EB-D1ED034A0A07@gmail.com>

Will be able to keep the lights on in our homes when the first electric cars are sold? read more:   http://bit.ly/g7g6ka

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Mon Nov 29 18:34:03 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:34:03 -0600
Subject: epublisher fictionwise getting rediculous
Message-ID: <51D14136-7317-40AB-9C66-05A0D222AACA@softcon.com>

I just had a support request answer from fictionwise.com that  
completely blew my mind.
I had asked why subscriptions weren't showing up anymore, and what  
happened to my (over 500) books in my wishlist.
The response came back that:
1, they're not currently offering subscriptions, so purchase  
individual issues.
and 2. some publishers are no longer available on fictionwise, so  
that's why some books disappeared from my wishlist.
Taking the second point first, I have to wonder what it would take for  
nearly 7 or 8 hundred books to disappear from my wishlist, considering  
they were all by several different publishers, unless fictionwise was  
loosing more than half of the publishers they use, there's no way this  
answer is valid.
And, subscriptions, you are going to sit there and tell me you don't  
offer subscriptions anymore?
So, a person who wishes to purchase subscriptions to printed media can  
do so w/no problem, but I who want an electronic copy cannot?
What kind of nonsense is that?
Admittedly, the subscription purchase wasn't much of a savings, but it  
was more convinient than anything else, because I didn't have to worry  
about forgetting to purchase the next issue when it came out, it would  
automatically show up in my bookshelf.  This has been in place for  
more than 8 years, and now you don't support it?
Who do these folks think they're trying to kid?
See, this is the kind of customer support that is all too common these  
days.
Companies think they know what's best for the consumer, and decide to  
offer features based on what they think the customer wants, even to  
the point of yanking services folks have been using for years and  
years, and they expect folks to like the changes?
Where did these folks go to financial school?
I've never gone to one, which is probably none of this makes sense to  
me, but I'd think any financial course would teach that to please the  
customer means more sales, yet these folks deliberately removed *all*  
of my books from my wishlist, removed the subscription options, and  
then on top of all that, refused to answer my first support request on  
the topic, and reset my password for another site (which is not what I  
asked)
Where do these support people get such a distinct lack of training and  
yet get tokeep their jobs?
I can't tell you how many times I've had support personnel tell me  
something I knew was just plain wrong, but for the most part, they  
don't even care, all they're concerned with is closing that support  
ticket, must be they get paid by the ticket instead of the hour these  
days.

So, if anyone else was thinking of using fictionwise for ebook  
purchases, I'd strongly urge not to do so at the present time.  If/ 
when they get their act together, and fix the issues I've been seeing  
lately, then perhaps it's worth checking into it again, but this  
sucks, as there's no other method for me to get my electronic  
magazines. *growl*, and my guess is, they know it.
This is what happens when companies get bought out.
Oh well, off to send another support ticket, to ask why *all* of my  
wishlist items were removed, since they don't seem capable of offering  
one correct response per email.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 29 19:25:14 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:25:14 -0800
Subject: epublisher fictionwise getting rediculous
In-Reply-To: <51D14136-7317-40AB-9C66-05A0D222AACA@softcon.com>
References: <51D14136-7317-40AB-9C66-05A0D222AACA@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <CB5BEBA8-3592-4074-AAD6-64B1F9418658@gmail.com>

Oh man! Yeah I understand that. That's why I left my website company as nothing in there suport docs matched there support staff answers. I'll tell that story later. Ohanddon;'t forget that now most companies s outsource there spoken and maybe there written tech support to placeswhere you cannot understand a word theysay and even the staff here are rude. Take a certain bank. I had someone helping me with the site and the staff said that they were not aloud to do that as said person did not have power of atterney. I wrote a blog post about that at http://marrie.klangoblog.net. Read it and cringe. lol!

On Nov 29, 2010, at 10:34, Travis Siegel <tsiegel at softcon.com> wrote:

> I just had a support request answer from fictionwise.com that completely blew my mind.
> I had asked why subscriptions weren't showing up anymore, and what happened to my (over 500) books in my wishlist.
> The response came back that:
> 1, they're not currently offering subscriptions, so purchase individual issues.
> and 2. some publishers are no longer available on fictionwise, so that's why some books disappeared from my wishlist.
> Taking the second point first, I have to wonder what it would take for nearly 7 or 8 hundred books to disappear from my wishlist, considering they were all by several different publishers, unless fictionwise was loosing more than half of the publishers they use, there's no way this answer is valid.
> And, subscriptions, you are going to sit there and tell me you don't offer subscriptions anymore?
> So, a person who wishes to purchase subscriptions to printed media can do so w/no problem, but I who want an electronic copy cannot?
> What kind of nonsense is that?
> Admittedly, the subscription purchase wasn't much of a savings, but it was more convinient than anything else, because I didn't have to worry about forgetting to purchase the next issue when it came out, it would automatically show up in my bookshelf.  This has been in place for more than 8 years, and now you don't support it?
> Who do these folks think they're trying to kid?
> See, this is the kind of customer support that is all too common these days.
> Companies think they know what's best for the consumer, and decide to offer features based on what they think the customer wants, even to the point of yanking services folks have been using for years and years, and they expect folks to like the changes?
> Where did these folks go to financial school?
> I've never gone to one, which is probably none of this makes sense to me, but I'd think any financial course would teach that to please the customer means more sales, yet these folks deliberately removed *all* of my books from my wishlist, removed the subscription options, and then on top of all that, refused to answer my first support request on the topic, and reset my password for another site (which is not what I asked)
> Where do these support people get such a distinct lack of training and yet get tokeep their jobs?
> I can't tell you how many times I've had support personnel tell me something I knew was just plain wrong, but for the most part, they don't even care, all they're concerned with is closing that support ticket, must be they get paid by the ticket instead of the hour these days.
> 
> So, if anyone else was thinking of using fictionwise for ebook purchases, I'd strongly urge not to do so at the present time.  If/when they get their act together, and fix the issues I've been seeing lately, then perhaps it's worth checking into it again, but this sucks, as there's no other method for me to get my electronic magazines. *growl*, and my guess is, they know it.
> This is what happens when companies get bought out.
> Oh well, off to send another support ticket, to ask why *all* of my wishlist items were removed, since they don't seem capable of offering one correct response per email.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov 30 03:40:50 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:40:50 -0600
Subject: physicists discover super-photon
Message-ID: <9D29DD32-5D56-45CA-9708-698C987FC75F@softcon.com>

This is neat stuff here.  They're thinking they can use this for  
building faster computers.

http://tinyurl.com/2fogd58

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Nov 30 03:48:41 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:48:41 -0600
Subject: Microsoft working on truly tactile displays
Message-ID: <6A2E8D22-9F5F-4A68-9643-CA165D59B75E@softcon.com>

The article mentions actual keys, doing away with the need for  
physical keyboards, but there's no reason why this couldn't be used to  
produce electronic braille, raised drawings, or any number of other  
things.


http://tinyurl.com/24j7jxx

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Nov 30 15:17:15 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:17:15 +1100
Subject: Blind Cool Tech, some interesting stuff
Message-ID: <8100D2FD-FBAB-4F7C-A37C-714A41466B5E@internode.on.net>

Hi Everyone!

My review of the Yamaha TSX-130 clock radio/soundsystem has been published on Blind Cool Tech at http://www.blindcooltech.com

Whist you're up there you may care to have a listen to other podcasts uploaded by other people including a review of the fantastic new CCrane EP radio, demonstrations and comparisons of various Mobile GPS systems etc.

Enjoy!



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Dec  1 16:33:27 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed,  1 Dec 2010 11:33:27 -0500
Subject: WebAIM's 3rd screen reader survey
Message-ID: <20101201113327.n1lzl2o28ckk44ww@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello all,

For the past couple of years, WebAIM has done a screen reader and web 
accessibility type of survey that is really objective. If you have ever 
used or do use a screen reader or screen magnifier (and yes, this does 
include Apple products as well)

Thankks to anyone who does this.I think they do a fantastic job, and 
you can read the past surveys as well so you can form your own opinion.,

WebAIM is pleased to announce their 3rd screen reader user survey, so 
for anyone who uses or has ever used one, please take 10 mins. to 
complete it? -
http://weba.im/survey3


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Thu Dec  2 05:46:20 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:46:20 +1100
Subject: Olympus DM-4 And DM-2 Digital Audio Devices Are At Your Command To
	Deliver Super High-quality Recording And Simple Playback |
	PressReleasePoint
Message-ID: <0A8C7F9D-ED28-468B-9063-D94FBD7A70BD@internode.on.net>

Hi everyone!

Okay apologies to all as it seems I may have underestimated these recorders.

In days not so long ago these recorders were okay but not what I'd call brilliant for recording, a lot of hiss and background noise.

I've since been talking to people who own the latest machines outlined at the link below and they've sent me samples, very nice samples yes its true.  I've also heard some excellent reviews of the machines from http://www.blindcooltech.com so the DM4 will be the next object of my savings for sure! <smile>.

I won't compare it with the Zoom H1, whilst they both record and play? Well that's about all they have in common and the price is considerably different but I have no regrets whatever about my purchase of the Zoom H1 and H4.

Read on

http://www.pressreleasepoint.com/olympus-dm4-and-dm2-digital-audio-devices-are-your-command-deliver-super-highquality-recording-and-s


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Dec  3 14:43:11 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:43:11 +1100
Subject: Improvements in Video Redo TV Suite version 4
Message-ID: <98919A2F-AE57-4246-A39A-9314E1D16221@internode.on.net>

Hi!

I hadn't used this tool for Windows for a good while.  just installed it the other day to discover that the serial number I'd purchased was for version 3 so I upgraded to 4 and I'm very glad I did!

No need for any video format conversion tools to make my video compatible with IIphones, Ipods, Windows Media Player and so on as Video Redo now has multiple choices you can save your video to, in earlier versions you only had 2 choices and they were MPG - which is my preferred format  - and Transport Stream, now there's about 20 different formats and they can be customised to your liking.

Last time I checked the software was $75.00 and if its still that price? Well an absolute bargain to be had if you want to do video editing.

Naturally, you can't see the screen but you can at least move around the file and cut if you need to, save your cuts, burn them to DVD etc.



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec  3 16:11:55 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:11:55 +0000
Subject: Improvements in Video Redo TV Suite version 4
In-Reply-To: <98919A2F-AE57-4246-A39A-9314E1D16221@internode.on.net>
References: <98919A2F-AE57-4246-A39A-9314E1D16221@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <410491FD-8E54-454E-897F-BDB4DE883504@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 3 Dec 2010, at 14:43, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? Last time I checked the software was $75.00 and if its still that price? Well an absolute bargain to be had if you want to do video editing.

Youch! 75 Dollars, I don't think we paid that much for it when we bought it. There again what Dollars are you talking about?

> ? Naturally, you can't see the screen but you can at least move around the file and cut if you need to, save your cuts, burn them to DVD etc.
> 
I beg your pardon; you can't see the screen? What does that mean? If you mean you, as in everybody, can't see the screen when using Video Redo, you're wrong. If you mean that you, Dane Trethowan and anybody else who is blind cannot see the screen, fair enough. But I would point out to you that this list does not only contain blind people. Nor is it intended for just blind people. In fact, I happen to know that we have at least 3 members who have nothing whatsoever to do with blind people. The isolation factor, as I call it, really concerns me to be honest. This is not the place to discuss the moral rights and wrongs of socialisation or the lack of it. Nor is it my place to tell others what they should and shouldn't do; and I wouldn't dream of trying to do so.

But that statement, "Naturally you can't see the screen", most odd. :)

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Dec  3 16:41:58 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 03:41:58 +1100
Subject: Improvements in Video Redo TV Suite version 4
In-Reply-To: <410491FD-8E54-454E-897F-BDB4DE883504@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <98919A2F-AE57-4246-A39A-9314E1D16221@internode.on.net>
	<410491FD-8E54-454E-897F-BDB4DE883504@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <832FF0E9-1236-4639-BE32-AA01B0939CAF@internode.on.net>

$75.00 U.S. I think its always been but remember we're talking about a very nice editor and DVD Creating utility.

I was referring to those who can't see the screen in other words those who have a visual impairment, they can easily use the editor as it has many shortcuts and accessible functions though the help for the keyboard shortcuts needs a bit of work as the file has pictures of the shortcuts rather than text labels.


On 04/12/2010, at 3:11 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 3 Dec 2010, at 14:43, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? Last time I checked the software was $75.00 and if its still that price? Well an absolute bargain to be had if you want to do video editing.
> 
> Youch! 75 Dollars, I don't think we paid that much for it when we bought it. There again what Dollars are you talking about?
> 
>> ? Naturally, you can't see the screen but you can at least move around the file and cut if you need to, save your cuts, burn them to DVD etc.
>> 
> I beg your pardon; you can't see the screen? What does that mean? If you mean you, as in everybody, can't see the screen when using Video Redo, you're wrong. If you mean that you, Dane Trethowan and anybody else who is blind cannot see the screen, fair enough. But I would point out to you that this list does not only contain blind people. Nor is it intended for just blind people. In fact, I happen to know that we have at least 3 members who have nothing whatsoever to do with blind people. The isolation factor, as I call it, really concerns me to be honest. This is not the place to discuss the moral rights and wrongs of socialisation or the lack of it. Nor is it my place to tell others what they should and shouldn't do; and I wouldn't dream of trying to do so.
> 
> But that statement, "Naturally you can't see the screen", most odd. :)
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Dec  3 18:11:30 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:11:30 -0600
Subject: British Braille 
Message-ID: <201012031811.oB3IBUip062209@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I was probably about 6 or 7 when I would have confused a
Dot 2 for a Dot 5 and nobody knew it except me at the time. It
was one of those things I remember reading and then doing a
double-take, saying to myself, "This doesn't make sense" and
realizing the mistake. At least I wasn't reading aloud to
anybody.

	I went to both a special school for the blind and public
schools and know what you mean about being concerned. I hated
the school for the blind at the time, but now realize that it
was probably the best thing to do. In 1957 when I started first
grade, the city of Tulsa had set up one public school with
special education classes for all the students in the Tulsa
Public Schools who needed them. The idea was wonderful but it
requires that everybody be at the top of their game for it all
to work.

	It really did not work out well and my parents enrolled
me in the Oklahoma School for the Blind in a near-by town.

	My parents did not want to do this, but they also
realized that it was necessary. In our family, you are expected
to get a good education and do something useful in life. I am
eternally greatful to them for that attitude because there were
some kids who are blind who were basically told that they
couldn't do anything and that's how they live their lives to
this very day.

	I was basically encouraged to do anything within reason
and that has made life a lot more interesting.

	When I was twelve, I remember asking my father how to
solder. He said that I would have to learn a few things
differently in order to do that, but he handed me the soldering
gun and I began trying big easy things first. You feel the
solder give as soon as it starts to melt and you can smell the
sweet smell of the rosin. If it smells like burning plastic or
rubber, you had better stop, let things cool down, and see what
you just melted because it probably wasn't what one intended to
melt.

	About that time, I also ran across a Braille book in the
library of the school for the blind called "The Boys' First Book
of Radio and Electronics" Now there was something neat to read
and I read it from cover to cover. Another book I also found was
called "Television works like this." which described how a
modern television station works. Only one catch. The copyright
date was 1954 so "modern" is now historical.

	Basically, I was an enthusiastic Braille reader when
reading about current events or science and electronics or
mechanics.

	At my age, now, I realize that Braille is absolutely
vital and all persons who are blind who can read it should learn
it. I realize that for some, Nature has dealt a double whammy in
that such things as diabetic neuropathy makes ones hands unable
to feel the Braille, but every person who could use Braille
should learn it. Electronics will give us a lot better selection
of things to read than anyone ever thought possible 50 or 60
years ago.

	As for not knowing the difference between their, the
posessive pronoun and there as in the location, that is the kind
of educational lapse that just makes a person look, shall we
say, like not the brightest bulb on the tree.

	I wish for you improving health.

Martin

Gordon Smith writes:
> Hi Martin
> 
> I'm a bit confused as to how you could mistake a dot 2 from a dot 5 but 
> maybe I say that because I'm used to it, it's what I grew up with.  I'm 
> talking about the old Braille rules.
> 
> That said, I do absolutely agree with the idea of denoting capital 
> letters, I think that American Braille has that one absolutely right.  It 
> is amazing how poor some blind people's spelling and general literacy is, 
> and much of that is due to Braille.
> 
> When we were taught Braille back in the mid sixties, they made us learn 
> the spelling as well, not just the Braille.  That teaching philosophy 
> changed as time went on, and the older teachers retired, and it was to 
> the detriment of blind people in general.
> 
> That isn't a criticism of blind people, don't get me wrong.  Far from it 
> actually, it is a criticism of the teachers and the teaching style.  
> Blind people were kind of taught in their own little world for a while 
> and things got worse.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 05:01:35 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:01:35 -0800
Subject: Olympus DM-4 And DM-2 Digital Audio Devices Are At Your Command
	To Deliver Super High-quality Recording And Simple Playback |
	PressReleasePoint
In-Reply-To: <0A8C7F9D-ED28-468B-9063-D94FBD7A70BD@internode.on.net>
References: <0A8C7F9D-ED28-468B-9063-D94FBD7A70BD@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <104BC14C-65DA-4E2A-ADE2-23E440BFF4F6@gmail.com>

Yeah I love my dm420. Sure it does not sound like a zoom but it works for what I need it to do.

Take care.

s
On Dec 1, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> Hi everyone!
> 
> Okay apologies to all as it seems I may have underestimated these recorders.
> 
> In days not so long ago these recorders were okay but not what I'd call brilliant for recording, a lot of hiss and background noise.
> 
> I've since been talking to people who own the latest machines outlined at the link below and they've sent me samples, very nice samples yes its true.  I've also heard some excellent reviews of the machines from http://www.blindcooltech.com so the DM4 will be the next object of my savings for sure! <smile>.
> 
> I won't compare it with the Zoom H1, whilst they both record and play? Well that's about all they have in common and the price is considerably different but I have no regrets whatever about my purchase of the Zoom H1 and H4.
> 
> Read on
> 
> http://www.pressreleasepoint.com/olympus-dm4-and-dm2-digital-audio-devices-are-your-command-deliver-super-highquality-recording-and-s
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From startrekcafe at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 08:15:58 2010
From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:15:58 +1100
Subject: free accessible data recovery software
Message-ID: <77B1B6E09D0847BE98CFEF94A0826AA7@marvinPC>

?hi.
well back in febuary, did too many system restores.
and my toshiba a300 satelite toshiba psag4a -2030 and had a hard waqre crash.
and did not have a external hard disk.
now all my college project lost.
well have a folder called c:\Docs\Tafe\CertificateFourHelpDesk.
now had a folder called c:\Docs\Tafe\DiplomaProjectManagement, CertificateFourWebsites, CertificateFourWebsiteDevelopment, CertificateFourProgramming, CertificateThreeSoftwareApplications
so any free, jaws frendly accessible data recovery, that could recover these sub folder.
do not have a credit card or pay pal.
any idess, suggestions, tips, tricks, or links would be appreciated.
thank you.
Marvin from Devonport, tasmania, australia 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 09:59:24 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 09:59:24 +0000
Subject: Help, possibly, if it isn't too much to ask; [Video Redo]
Message-ID: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

I know that at least one person, namely Dane, is running Video Redo who is on this list. So I thought I would ask this question here before I installed the new version into either our Windows 7 configuration or our Windows XP virtual machine.

So, here goes; what, please, is the process for upgrading to version 3 to version 4, once an upgrade has been bought? By this, what I mean is that I don't have any version currently installed. The token I received from the developers is for an existing installation upgrade it seems. So does anybody know the exact procedure I need to follow?

Do I need to go through all the steps involving installing the previous version first, then installing version 4?

Thank you.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Dec  5 11:32:22 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 22:32:22 +1100
Subject: Help, possibly, if it isn't too much to ask; [Video Redo]
In-Reply-To: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>

That's a fair and good question, the way I found out about the new version was purely by accident, I had to download Video Redo TV Suite again from the web site to install on my new system, I entered the key I had and discovered that my registration failed.

In the dialogue box for registration I noticed a button labeled something like "Upgrade from previous version", I clicked on it and was asked to enter my Video Redo Suite 3 product key etc which I did.

I was then taken to a page on the Video Redo web site saying amongst other things that I had a valid Video Redo TV Suite v3 key and offering me the purchase of a Video Redo 4 token for $25.00 which I purchased so I hope this answers your question all be it in a rather long winded way <smile>.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 05/12/2010, at 8:59 PM, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> I know that at least one person, namely Dane, is running Video Redo who is on this list. So I thought I would ask this question here before I installed the new version into either our Windows 7 configuration or our Windows XP virtual machine.
> 
> So, here goes; what, please, is the process for upgrading to version 3 to version 4, once an upgrade has been bought? By this, what I mean is that I don't have any version currently installed. The token I received from the developers is for an existing installation upgrade it seems. So does anybody know the exact procedure I need to follow?
> 
> Do I need to go through all the steps involving installing the previous version first, then installing version 4?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 12:04:52 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:04:52 +0000
Subject: Help, possibly, if it isn't too much to ask; [Video Redo]
In-Reply-To: <77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 5 Dec 2010, at 11:32, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? That's a fair and good question, the way I found out about the new version was purely by accident, I had to download Video Redo TV Suite again from the web site to install on my new system, I entered the key I had and discovered that my registration failed.
> 
OK, we don't have version 3 kicking around anywhere. So I wonder what will happen if I install version 4. I have an upgrade token key apparently but it won't work on its own. So I'm confused.

> ? In the dialogue box for registration I noticed a button labeled something like "Upgrade from previous version", I clicked on it and was asked to enter my Video Redo Suite 3 product key etc which I did.
> 
OK I can look to see if that is available.

> ? I was then taken to a page on the Video Redo web site saying amongst other things that I had a valid Video Redo TV Suite v3 key and offering me the purchase of a Video Redo 4 token for $25.00 which I purchased so I hope this answers your question all be it in a rather long winded way <smile>.
> 
Kind of. As I say I've already bought the token so is that a key by itself then?

Lynne



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Dec  5 12:19:16 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 23:19:16 +1100
Subject: Help, possibly, if it isn't too much to ask; [Video Redo]
In-Reply-To: <91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>

Just enter the token into the registration dialogue for Video Redo TV Suite 4 and that should do the trick, seems that the older keys are surplus to requirements.

Tip: you may save yourself considerable typing by copying the token to the clipboard and using the "Paste From Clipboard" button in the Video Redo TV Suite 4 registration dialogue.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 05/12/2010, at 11:04 PM, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 11:32, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? That's a fair and good question, the way I found out about the new version was purely by accident, I had to download Video Redo TV Suite again from the web site to install on my new system, I entered the key I had and discovered that my registration failed.
>> 
> OK, we don't have version 3 kicking around anywhere. So I wonder what will happen if I install version 4. I have an upgrade token key apparently but it won't work on its own. So I'm confused.
> 
>> ? In the dialogue box for registration I noticed a button labeled something like "Upgrade from previous version", I clicked on it and was asked to enter my Video Redo Suite 3 product key etc which I did.
>> 
> OK I can look to see if that is available.
> 
>> ? I was then taken to a page on the Video Redo web site saying amongst other things that I had a valid Video Redo TV Suite v3 key and offering me the purchase of a Video Redo 4 token for $25.00 which I purchased so I hope this answers your question all be it in a rather long winded way <smile>.
>> 
> Kind of. As I say I've already bought the token so is that a key by itself then?
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 12:37:04 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:37:04 +0000
Subject: Help, possibly, if it isn't too much to ask; [Video Redo]
In-Reply-To: <42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 5 Dec 2010, at 12:19, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? Just enter the token into the registration dialogue for Video Redo TV Suite 4 and that should do the trick, seems that the older keys are surplus to requirements.
> 
OK, that answers my query, thank you. I will copy & paste, I always do that. So now I guess I'd better go into Windows. I also need to configure Firefox and Thunderbird.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Dec  5 13:23:42 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:23:42 +1100
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>

I've been using Firefox and Thunderbird for ages but I tell you now that Firefox and Thunderbird in my experience - whilst they work with Window-Eyes - you can get far better results using other Screen Reading software for Windows such as NVDA which is freely available, NVDA would have to be one of the most underestimated and underrated Screen Reading packages for Windows avaiable today and the developers are showing the big boys a thing or two about accessibility, as Window-
Eyes and JAWS become ever more bloated with features and functions which don't help much in the day-to-day wordl of accessibility
 NVDA strives and does make more Windows applicationsaccessible, an example of this is the obvious Open Office.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 05/12/2010, at 11:37 PM, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 12:19, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? Just enter the token into the registration dialogue for Video Redo TV Suite 4 and that should do the trick, seems that the older keys are surplus to requirements.
>> 
> OK, that answers my query, thank you. I will copy & paste, I always do that. So now I guess I'd better go into Windows. I also need to configure Firefox and Thunderbird.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 14:28:32 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:28:32 +0000
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 5 Dec 2010, at 13:23, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? I've been using Firefox and Thunderbird for ages but I tell you now that Firefox and Thunderbird in my experience - whilst they work with Window-Eyes - you can get far better results using other Screen Reading software for Windows such as NVDA which is freely available, NVDA would have to be one of the most underestimated and underrated Screen Reading packages for Windows avaiable today and the developers are showing the big boys a thing or two about accessibility, as Window-
> Eyes and JAWS become ever more bloated with features and functions which don't help much in the day-to-day wordl of accessibility
> NVDA strives and does make more Windows applicationsaccessible, an example of this is the obvious Open Office.
> 
To each their own I guess. We have absolutely no intention of using mail regularly under Windows; it's just for a convenience that I'm planning to install it.

Windows 7 doesn't include a mail client . Outlook has gone now, thank goodness! They now use Windows Mail, which is part of Windows Live Essentials which you have to download and install the components you want.

What I might look for, however, is twitter clients for Windows and maybe iPad and iPhone. I haven't tried IM+ with Twitter yet so I don't know what it is like. But I know there are others. Depends on accessibility in this case because Gordon and I both use the iPad and he uses his iPhone quite a bit but not much for mail and stuff like that. The iPad is a vastly superior device for that sort of thing.

Maybe when he's recovered from his current problems Gordon might be able to try this NVDA thing and see how well it works. Does it object to more than one screen-reader being installed?

I personally have never seen JFW so I can't comment on it. But Gordon tells me that it relies heavily of scripting and it costs you to buy a lot of scripts. Well; people have the right to be rewarded for their work I guess. But it does kind of smack of the blind robbing the blind.

I can't deny that it would be nice to be able to have Office components installed. NoteTab Pro is, obviously, one of our first editors to go in there, along with Clipmate Pro and maybe 1Password, I don't know. I think we bought a key for the Windows version, I'd have to check.

But OSX is, and will remain, our operating system of choice. But I'll end by saying this. Windows 7 is much much more stable than Vista was, and it has a lot of nice features that XP doesn't. In fact, it's more stable than XP in my experience. But what does worry me is the amount of times that Eset Smart Security is telling me that our computer is trying to connect to a remote computer to send data. This would seem to validate Gordon's comments that Windows does a lot of data exchanging with Microsoft without the users' knowledge or consent. Makes you wonder exactly how much information about the user, what they are doing, what they use, that sort of thing, is being sent to Microsoft.

Why do they need a copy of the log files? Eset is telling me, even now as I write this, that the Windows Event Log file needs to be uploaded to a remote computer. Now that really is worrying. That's under XP service pack 3, by the way, on a virtual machine.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Dec  5 14:42:57 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 01:42:57 +1100
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C3A75C0C-67CE-44B4-9702-CB32B940A767@internode.on.net>

As you say to each their own but if you do get a chance to try NVDA then I think you'll get a pleasant surprise as the navigation using the screen reader smacks of Voiceover for the Mac a lot of the time as you've navigating by object etc.

Whilst I respect your right absolutely and totally for you to use what you want its just far too easy for anyone to use dismissive tones when writing about a product that someone suggests rather than using encouraging statements <smile>.

As far as Windows Live goes, I did read that Microsoft was planning to discontinue Windows Live? Well that's probably not going to make a great deal of difference to a whole lot of people as there are other pieces of software which do an equal or better job, take Miranda which is a multi chat protocol client which takes the place of Windows Live Messenger.

You talk of conveniences? Well that's absolutely fine and I can see where you're coming from as I do the same with my Windows machine but if its convenience I want then its the best apps I want that work well with whatever Screen Reader is the best for that environment given that I don't want to be using Windows for any longer period than I have to.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 06/12/2010, at 1:28 AM, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 13:23, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? I've been using Firefox and Thunderbird for ages but I tell you now that Firefox and Thunderbird in my experience - whilst they work with Window-Eyes - you can get far better results using other Screen Reading software for Windows such as NVDA which is freely available, NVDA would have to be one of the most underestimated and underrated Screen Reading packages for Windows avaiable today and the developers are showing the big boys a thing or two about accessibility, as Window-
>> Eyes and JAWS become ever more bloated with features and functions which don't help much in the day-to-day wordl of accessibility
>> NVDA strives and does make more Windows applicationsaccessible, an example of this is the obvious Open Office.
>> 
> To each their own I guess. We have absolutely no intention of using mail regularly under Windows; it's just for a convenience that I'm planning to install it.
> 
> Windows 7 doesn't include a mail client . Outlook has gone now, thank goodness! They now use Windows Mail, which is part of Windows Live Essentials which you have to download and install the components you want.
> 
> What I might look for, however, is twitter clients for Windows and maybe iPad and iPhone. I haven't tried IM+ with Twitter yet so I don't know what it is like. But I know there are others. Depends on accessibility in this case because Gordon and I both use the iPad and he uses his iPhone quite a bit but not much for mail and stuff like that. The iPad is a vastly superior device for that sort of thing.
> 
> Maybe when he's recovered from his current problems Gordon might be able to try this NVDA thing and see how well it works. Does it object to more than one screen-reader being installed?
> 
> I personally have never seen JFW so I can't comment on it. But Gordon tells me that it relies heavily of scripting and it costs you to buy a lot of scripts. Well; people have the right to be rewarded for their work I guess. But it does kind of smack of the blind robbing the blind.
> 
> I can't deny that it would be nice to be able to have Office components installed. NoteTab Pro is, obviously, one of our first editors to go in there, along with Clipmate Pro and maybe 1Password, I don't know. I think we bought a key for the Windows version, I'd have to check.
> 
> But OSX is, and will remain, our operating system of choice. But I'll end by saying this. Windows 7 is much much more stable than Vista was, and it has a lot of nice features that XP doesn't. In fact, it's more stable than XP in my experience. But what does worry me is the amount of times that Eset Smart Security is telling me that our computer is trying to connect to a remote computer to send data. This would seem to validate Gordon's comments that Windows does a lot of data exchanging with Microsoft without the users' knowledge or consent. Makes you wonder exactly how much information about the user, what they are doing, what they use, that sort of thing, is being sent to Microsoft.
> 
> Why do they need a copy of the log files? Eset is telling me, even now as I write this, that the Windows Event Log file needs to be uploaded to a remote computer. Now that really is worrying. That's under XP service pack 3, by the way, on a virtual machine.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 15:42:26 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:42:26 +0000
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <C3A75C0C-67CE-44B4-9702-CB32B940A767@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<C3A75C0C-67CE-44B4-9702-CB32B940A767@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <FD22B780-D068-478F-AC6A-A615858A3CC0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 5 Dec 2010, at 14:42, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? As you say to each their own but if you do get a chance to try NVDA then I think you'll get a pleasant surprise as the navigation using the screen reader smacks of Voiceover for the Mac a lot of the time as you've navigating by object etc.
> 
That's a very good idea and it's nice to see that different sort of approach.

> ? Whilst I respect your right absolutely and totally for you to use what you want its just far too easy for anyone to use dismissive tones when writing about a product that someone suggests rather than using encouraging statements <smile>.
> 
Dane, I had no intention whatsoever of being dismissive. But you're quite right, it's to each their own. I personally don't need a screen-reader, but I might give it a try because I'm interested in issues that affect the disabled unilaterally.

But what you have to understand Dane is that people are in different circumstances to yours. You can more or less please yourself what you do. And it's good that you write about things, don't get me wrong. But a lot of people just don't have the time to sit and try everything.

When I sit down in front of these machines, it's to do what I consider needs to be done. yes; I use email a heck of a lot. But I'm also doing administration work as part of my professional life. During those times, experimentation is not appropriate.

I don't want to go into detail here; but you also don't seem to be taking into account as far as we are concerned that there are major health battles going on which make things difficult.

Gordon simply isn't able to play around at the moment, whether he wants too or not. He is saying that he will give NVDA a try when he's able. The object orientated approach is one which he likes on the Mac and he's apparently curious now to see how it works under Windows.

> ? As far as Windows Live goes, I did read that Microsoft was planning to discontinue Windows Live? Well that's probably not going to make a great deal of difference to a whole lot of people as there are other pieces of software which do an equal or better job, take Miranda which is a multi chat protocol client which takes the place of Windows Live Messenger.
> 
That's the first I've heard of that. It seems to contradict the fact that they are actively promoting it as part of Windows 7. But you might be right, I don't know. What's this other software then, how about writing about it? :)

> ? You talk of conveniences? Well that's absolutely fine and I can see where you're coming from as I do the same with my Windows machine but if its convenience I want then its the best apps I want that work well with whatever Screen Reader is the best for that environment given that I don't want to be using Windows for any longer period than I have to.
> 
I totally agree with that. As I've said many many times, it's nobody's business but yours what you do and what you use. Just as the same is true for us, and anybody else. That's why I can't understand for the life of me why there are always arguments along the lines of "my toy's better than your toy". Why can't people just learn to live and let live?

Discussing the merits of NVDA, JFW, Window-Eyes, HAL, Super Nova, VoiceOver, Zoom, anything like that is fine here. That's what the list is for!

Lynne


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  6 15:16:24 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon,  6 Dec 2010 10:16:24 -0500
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

NVDA is a free open-source screen reader, and I think they've done a 
pretty good job, really. One thing I like about it is when there's an 
unlabeled form element on a web page, it won't try and associate text 
with it like JAWS and WE do. It just says there's a blank edit field. I 
do think the voice sounds like aliens from old movies, but since it's 
free, I can't complain.

Mary




From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec  6 15:27:27 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:27:27 +0000
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 6 Dec 2010, at 15:16, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
> ? NVDA is a free open-source screen reader, and I think they've done a pretty good job, really. One thing I like about it is when there's an unlabeled form element on a web page, it won't try and associate text with it like JAWS and WE do. It just says there's a blank edit field. I do think the voice sounds like aliens from old movies, but since it's free, I can't complain.

Dane says it's object orientated rather than using a OSM as I've seen it called.

Perhaps when Gordon gets back on his feet again, he might try it and that way we will know what it is like. It seems a shame if you can't pick which voice you want if you have more than 1 installed. But I gather it has Braille. I hope it's multilingual instead of just assuming that the only life forms on this planet who matter and who have intelligence are those within the US.
Lynne



From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  6 17:01:09 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon,  6 Dec 2010 12:01:09 -0500
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>

Hello,

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

>
> Perhaps when Gordon gets back on his feet again, he might try it and
> that way we will know what it is like. It seems a shame if you can't
> pick which voice you want if you have more than 1 installed. But I
> gather it has Braille. I hope it's multilingual instead of just
> assuming that the only life forms on this planet who matter and who
> have intelligence are those within the US.

Actually, NVDA has its own built-in speech synth and supports Microsoft 
Sapi4 and some other speech engine. It provides Braille support for a 
variety of displays in a variety of differnet languages. NVDA has 
support for 20 different languages.

But if it only supported American English, the reason would bebecause 
it's open source and no one contributed the development for that screen 
reader to support other languages. that's the thing about open source. 
If you don't like something and you have the programming knowledge, you 
can change it. You can also share your ideas with the NVDA community, 
and so if you don't have the knowledge, maybe someone else does.





From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Dec  6 19:19:32 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 06:19:32 +1100
Subject: Thunderbird, Firefox and other Windows Stuff
In-Reply-To: <20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <34A5190A-05ED-448C-8F29-9337B66F668E@internode.on.net>

Ah, now my email seems to be working <smile>.

Mary Madear, you can use multiple voices with NVDA though yes, the voice it comes with does sound a little strange, its Espeak I think its called and its the same voice that comes with VINUX, the excellent accessible version of LINUX.

The developers of NVDA would dearly love to include more voices but are restrained because of copyright issues.

If you have Kurzweil installed on your system running NVDA then you can go into the NVDA preferences and use one of the Kurzweil voices.

You can use Neospeech if you have it amongst others.


On 07/12/2010, at 2:16 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> NVDA is a free open-source screen reader, and I think they've done a pretty good job, really. One thing I like about it is when there's an unlabeled form element on a web page, it won't try and associate text with it like JAWS and WE do. It just says there's a blank edit field. I do think the voice sounds like aliens from old movies, but since it's free, I can't complain.
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec  7 13:44:49 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:44:49 +0000
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 6 Dec 2010, at 17:01, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? Actually, NVDA has its own built-in speech synth and supports Microsoft Sapi4 and some other speech engine. It provides Braille support for a variety of displays in a variety of differnet languages. NVDA has support for 20 different languages.
> 
Judging by what I'm seeing in our Windows 7 installation, the latest SAPI is version 5. Microsoft's voices under 7 are all SAPI 5 not 4. So if NVDA only supports SAPI 4 I wonder if it will work. You say it has its own speech engine. That's interesting.

> ? But if it only supported American English, the reason would bebecause it's open source and no one contributed the development for that screen reader to support other languages. that's the thing about open source. If you don't like something and you have the programming knowledge, you can change it. You can also share your ideas with the NVDA community, and so if you don't have the knowledge, maybe someone else does.
> 
Well that's true, of course. But I understand that multilingual Braille is not the same as general multilingual. For instance under 7 Gordon uses British Braille. It's true to say that on Apple's desktop platform they only support American English Braille. So if you want multi-lingual Braille you need to visit http://www.cecimac.org and download the Braille enhancements that our friends Anne and Archie have developed for OSX.

The site I just gave you is natively French; but there are sections in other languages now. And finally I am proud to say that that site is hosted here, on our servers. Gordon and I believe in supporting the visually impaired; so if anybody needs free hosting of a website please feel free to approach us via the support address and we'll see what we can do to help.

I think Gordon is coming home this afternoon.

Lynne

> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Dec  7 14:02:14 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 01:02:14 +1100
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>

It seems to me that you'd be far better off looking at the NVDA web site to have all these questions answered, its not poison you know <smile>.



Sent from Dane's Iphone +61457756048


On 08/12/2010, at 12:44 AM, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Mary
> 
> On 6 Dec 2010, at 17:01, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> ? Actually, NVDA has its own built-in speech synth and supports Microsoft Sapi4 and some other speech engine. It provides Braille support for a variety of displays in a variety of differnet languages. NVDA has support for 20 different languages.
>> 
> Judging by what I'm seeing in our Windows 7 installation, the latest SAPI is version 5. Microsoft's voices under 7 are all SAPI 5 not 4. So if NVDA only supports SAPI 4 I wonder if it will work. You say it has its own speech engine. That's interesting.
> 
>> ? But if it only supported American English, the reason would bebecause it's open source and no one contributed the development for that screen reader to support other languages. that's the thing about open source. If you don't like something and you have the programming knowledge, you can change it. You can also share your ideas with the NVDA community, and so if you don't have the knowledge, maybe someone else does.
>> 
> Well that's true, of course. But I understand that multilingual Braille is not the same as general multilingual. For instance under 7 Gordon uses British Braille. It's true to say that on Apple's desktop platform they only support American English Braille. So if you want multi-lingual Braille you need to visit http://www.cecimac.org and download the Braille enhancements that our friends Anne and Archie have developed for OSX.
> 
> The site I just gave you is natively French; but there are sections in other languages now. And finally I am proud to say that that site is hosted here, on our servers. Gordon and I believe in supporting the visually impaired; so if anybody needs free hosting of a website please feel free to approach us via the support address and we'll see what we can do to help.
> 
> I think Gordon is coming home this afternoon.
> 
> Lynne
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec  7 14:26:35 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:26:35 +0000
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 7 Dec 2010, at 14:02, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> It seems to me that you'd be far better off looking at the NVDA web site to have all these questions answered, its not poison you know <smile>.

This is just a discussion, nothing else.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Dec  7 14:30:24 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 01:30:24 +1100
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>

Point appreciated completely however some of these topics are fully covered I know on the site and you'd most likely get far better explanation.


On 08/12/2010, at 1:26 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 7 Dec 2010, at 14:02, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> It seems to me that you'd be far better off looking at the NVDA web site to have all these questions answered, its not poison you know <smile>.
> 
> This is just a discussion, nothing else.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec  7 14:35:42 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:35:42 +0000
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Dane

On 7 Dec 2010, at 14:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> ? Point appreciated completely however some of these topics are fully covered I know on the site and you'd most likely get far better explanation.
What you don't seem to appreciate here is that I'm not looking for the blurb. I'm only expressing a passing interest as I don't need the programme. I'm just interested in people's views of it so that, in the event that Gordon decides to try it, he has something to use as a point of reference.

All emails to this list are archive Dane, I'm not sure whether you're aware of that. So this is more about actual experiences from people who have tried it and I always find that the blurb on websites doesn't tell you nearly as much as the voices of those who have used a thing do.

That, I would remind you, is why this list was set up. Not simply to tell people to go to websites. :)

I hope that now you understand where I'm coming from. Of course; if the time comes that Gordon is seriously interested, we will go to the website and investigate further.

Lynne


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Dec  7 14:53:22 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 01:53:22 +1100
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
	<B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EBD23DCC-DD91-4D45-8BA0-334773965D87@internode.on.net>

Why bother discussing it at all in the first place then and wasting people's time? <smile>.


On 08/12/2010, at 1:35 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Dane
> 
> On 7 Dec 2010, at 14:30, Dane Trethowan wrote:
> 
>> ? Point appreciated completely however some of these topics are fully covered I know on the site and you'd most likely get far better explanation.
> What you don't seem to appreciate here is that I'm not looking for the blurb. I'm only expressing a passing interest as I don't need the programme. I'm just interested in people's views of it so that, 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Tue Dec  7 15:21:34 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Tue,  7 Dec 2010 10:21:34 -0500
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <EBD23DCC-DD91-4D45-8BA0-334773965D87@internode.on.net>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
	<B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<EBD23DCC-DD91-4D45-8BA0-334773965D87@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <20101207102134.91g2abj6w4s00kck@webmail.iu.edu>

Up until this post I agreed with you, Dane.

I am going to be doing my own testing of NVDA this week or early next 
week, after I finish beta Testing Blio Reader. But I have to say the 
documentation for NVDA is quite specific on what Braille drivers to 
install and the languages it supports. I haven't even read all the user 
guide documentation, just the guide that explains how to install it and 
gives the user a basic here's-how-you-start idea. But there's quite a 
bit more out there, and that's a huge improvement from the first time I 
tested it over a year ago.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've heard a lot of 
good things about NVDA, and since it's open source, one can hope for 
more improvements just as Firefox has generally improved over the 
years. Sure, not everythig is perfect. Sure, maybe some multilingual 
support is minimal right now. But hopefully some Arabic speak or 
whatever person with programming knowledge will step up to the plate. 
And if not, at least I can already see there's effort being made to 
support 20 different languages, and you don't have to pay some really 
high rate just to get language support... unlike JAWS and WE.

Mary

I will be happy to post my results of NVDA on here when I'm done.

Mary

Quoting Dane Trethowan <grtdane at internode.on.net>:

> Why bother discussing it at all in the first place then and wasting
> people's time? <smile>.
>
>



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Dec  7 15:39:29 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 02:39:29 +1100
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <20101207102134.91g2abj6w4s00kck@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
	<B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<EBD23DCC-DD91-4D45-8BA0-334773965D87@internode.on.net>
	<20101207102134.91g2abj6w4s00kck@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <57EEF0EF-E57A-46A0-BFBF-9E7040FC2286@internode.on.net>

Nodding my head, that's why I suggested that people look at the web site given the amount of documentation and FAQ sections up there not to mention support forums for the product and associated items, the developers have gone out of their way to answer as many questions and so forth as they can.

You're right Mary, its not perfect but it has come a long way particularly in the last 12 months since I've started using it and the changes have made it unrecognisable, more to come I'm sure.

Yes, I have software here that it just won't work with but the same can be said for JAWS and Window-Eyes I'm sure.

There are so many good open source things out there now, another one you may look at is a product called CCleaner, a great little utility for maintaining your Windows system and its very accessible, that's a rarity for those sorts of utilities.

The web site for CCleaner is http://www.ccleaner.com


On 08/12/2010, at 2:21 AM, Mary Stores wrote:

> Up until this post I agreed with you, Dane.
> 
> I am going to be doing my own testing of NVDA this week or early next week, after I finish beta Testing Blio Reader. But I have to say the documentation for NVDA is quite specific on what Braille drivers to install and the languages it supports. I haven't even read all the user guide documentation, just the guide that explains how to install it and gives the user a basic here's-how-you-start idea. But there's quite a bit more out there, and that's a huge improvement from the first time I tested it over a year ago.
> 
> I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've heard a lot of good things about NVDA, and since it's open source, one can hope for more improvements just as Firefox has generally improved over the years. Sure, not everythig is perfect. Sure, maybe some multilingual support is minimal right now. But hopefully some Arabic speak or whatever person with programming knowledge will step up to the plate. And if not, at least I can already see there's effort being made to support 20 different languages, and you don't have to pay some really high rate just to get language support... unlike JAWS and WE.
> 
> Mary
> 
> I will be happy to post my results of NVDA on here when I'm done.
> 
> Mary
> 
> Quoting Dane Trethowan <grtdane at internode.on.net>:
> 
>> Why bother discussing it at all in the first place then and wasting
>> people's time? <smile>.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec  7 17:07:55 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:07:55 +0000
Subject: NVDA
In-Reply-To: <20101207102134.91g2abj6w4s00kck@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <36A2E859-7070-4EAF-8995-5A7A1DB2AF1E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<77B99152-94FB-42BC-99B4-C9CA3B6435F0@internode.on.net>
	<91C0D191-B7D5-4C18-AEA3-67F33D637076@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<42CA35DD-6D52-4527-A64F-DCB189FD7465@internode.on.net>
	<CD9CC9DF-6393-45F0-9D7F-CC74826A68C9@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A772854E-FD33-4635-9406-AE2D7A948B89@internode.on.net>
	<FB09367F-58DE-46F7-B1C3-391F3C53856E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206101624.7uk00xds5cocwck0@webmail.iu.edu>
	<EF4F9D5D-7C12-4109-A732-565538217C3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101206120109.4suje0cxog8ogkko@webmail.iu.edu>
	<85E61723-6497-4FCF-B77E-CA643600EA5B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<1DA5A499-D3C2-4ADB-A141-FA5B66A97FA1@internode.on.net>
	<6DC46EA0-835D-4D2F-96D1-E52E19E2C6E5@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<D3F46FF8-3609-4CCB-9BC8-D14E1AF323F8@internode.on.net>
	<B1BF7E33-FEA3-40BE-B1DA-3FA0C98ECA7B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<EBD23DCC-DD91-4D45-8BA0-334773965D87@internode.on.net>
	<20101207102134.91g2abj6w4s00kck@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <189DE733-AEC0-4180-980C-F9129636809B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 7 Dec 2010, at 15:21, Mary Stores wrote:

> Up until this post I agreed with you, Dane.

I have to say that I'm wondering now why Dane bothers with this list at all. Or with any other, for that matter. The purpose of the list is to discuss, is it not? If Dane feels that I, as a person without the personal need for a screen-reader am wasting his time, why on earth is he bothering? As I said, I simply asked for a little tiny bit of information. I do not intend to spend a lot of time reading documentation on this because I don't know whether Gordon even will try it.

But, if it is the case that people on list believe I'm wasting their time, I'll just watch from now on, and comment only when I know for sure I have something positive to offer.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Dec  8 10:57:41 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:57:41 +0000
Subject: Data Recovery Software
In-Reply-To: <3298EFC8CFEF47B1B35EB2DAC0B39467@marvinPC>
References: <51C064784CFC4EF98B6452E693E5B38D@marvinPC>
	<204FD0C1-9634-4F66-868C-63C07483825B@tft-bbs.com>
	<8D9699A24C504F87BEED3930C877E380@marvinPC>
	<93EBC7DE-A24B-4E69-BA87-99A5858AA90A@tft-bbs.com>
	<3298EFC8CFEF47B1B35EB2DAC0B39467@marvinPC>
Message-ID: <3B2B15CC-D7A3-40D6-8960-87443E398CD6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Marvin

I am re-routing this conversation to the mailing list, because I really can't help you and there might be some there who can. Assuming, of course, that they don't think you're wasting their time. :)

To summarise; Marvin is looking for some free data recovery system for Windows. I personally don't know of anything but I am not a technical person really and not, therefore, the person to ask. So I'm re-routing Marvin's request which came to our support address.

On 8 Dec 2010, at 10:09, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
> oh, well had no posts left, so maybe not in the same situation as me.
> maybe might give receipie roll back another go, unless, you know of any data recovery, that works with jaws, and is free.
> do not have a credit card or pay pal.

You know the old saying, you gets what you pays for. I honestly can't help you Marvin, I'm sorry; but hopefully somebody on list can.


Lynne



From tsiegel at softcon.com  Wed Dec  8 13:57:52 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 07:57:52 -0600
Subject: Data Recovery Software
In-Reply-To: <3B2B15CC-D7A3-40D6-8960-87443E398CD6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <51C064784CFC4EF98B6452E693E5B38D@marvinPC>
	<204FD0C1-9634-4F66-868C-63C07483825B@tft-bbs.com>
	<8D9699A24C504F87BEED3930C877E380@marvinPC>
	<93EBC7DE-A24B-4E69-BA87-99A5858AA90A@tft-bbs.com>
	<3298EFC8CFEF47B1B35EB2DAC0B39467@marvinPC>
	<3B2B15CC-D7A3-40D6-8960-87443E398CD6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E373060A-0EB6-4A00-B2B0-37565881F4E9@softcon.com>

Depending on exactly what you're hunting for, a good place to start is http://www.grc.com 
.  These are the guys who wrote spinwrite, and have built a business  
out of data recovery products over the past 30 years or so.
They do have some free stuff there, and some pay things, it all  
depends on what you need.
Gibson research is run by a guy who's pretty knowledgeable, and I've  
never seen a product of theirs that didn't perform up to spec.  Of  
course, I've had no need of windows utilities for some time, but I'd  
wager they're still up to the task, so drop by and check them out.


On Dec 8, 2010, at 4:57 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Marvin
>
> I am re-routing this conversation to the mailing list, because I  
> really can't help you and there might be some there who can.  
> Assuming, of course, that they don't think you're wasting their  
> time. :)
>
> To summarise; Marvin is looking for some free data recovery system  
> for Windows. I personally don't know of anything but I am not a  
> technical person really and not, therefore, the person to ask. So  
> I'm re-routing Marvin's request which came to our support address.
>
> On 8 Dec 2010, at 10:09, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
>> oh, well had no posts left, so maybe not in the same situation as me.
>> maybe might give receipie roll back another go, unless, you know of  
>> any data recovery, that works with jaws, and is free.
>> do not have a credit card or pay pal.
>
> You know the old saying, you gets what you pays for. I honestly  
> can't help you Marvin, I'm sorry; but hopefully somebody on list can.
>
>
> Lynne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,  
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's  
> dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat  
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Dec  8 19:23:13 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:23:13 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question
Message-ID: <80175F2B-A01A-47F1-98DA-A6BAA815DD5C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody

This question does not relate to computers. It relates to video sources.

We have a new HD TV network device and it says in the documentation that you should connect your HD source devices via the component video jacks which are all RCA phono. The problem is that all of our HD video sources use HDMI connectors and they don't have component video connectors on them.

Is there a way, does anybody know, around this problem? I have to admit that had I known that HD didn't mean HDMI I don't think I'd have bought this device. But there we are, what's done is done.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec  8 21:20:51 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:20:51 -0600
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
Message-ID: <201012082120.oB8LKpsQ001925@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Since HDMI is a digital stream containing both the HD
video and audio data plus key data for DRM, your only recourse
is to convert the HDMI signal in to component video which is
analog but not to be confused with "composite" video, the yellow
plug.

	I can not recommend a specific device but anything that
converts hdmi to the component video that your system needs is a
candidate.

	There may actually be a specific box on the market that
converts HDMI to the component video plus 2 or more channels of
audio.

	There is more than one standard for component video and
they are not interchangeable so tread cautiously.

Martin

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> This question does not relate to computers. It relates to video sources.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Dec  8 21:47:07 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:47:07 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012082120.oB8LKpsQ001925@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012082120.oB8LKpsQ001925@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <78DEC09F-ED70-483A-B217-83ABB0C3EC08@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 8 Dec 2010, at 21:20, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? 	Since HDMI is a digital stream containing both the HD
> video and audio data plus key data for DRM, your only recourse
> is to convert the HDMI signal in to component video which is
> analog but not to be confused with "composite" video, the yellow
> plug.
> 
Yes, I understand all that. But what I can't understand is why on earth an HD device is sold like this. Over here in the UK at least, just about every HD device uses HDMI as far as I'm aware. Surely these people must be aware of that fact. So why sell something that is very obviously incompatible with the majority of equipment in the country where the item is being sold, I wonder.

I have to say I'm extremely disappointed in this. I was looking for an HD network solution so that we could watch HD TV anywhere in the house. The Slingbox Pro device we have is capable of doing everything that this one does for us, based on our equipment. It uses standard definition and optionally, component video. That's fine, but it doesn't claim to be an HD ready device.

So, I thought, why not buy us the HD version and have it all clean and easy to use.

But no, it seems, these people have different ideas. They say that component video is used in high-end video devices. That's probably true; but all UK equipment I've ever seen that supports HD uses HDMI connectivity as I said. So what's the point claiming it is HD ready? Unless, of course, I'm missing something. That's entirely possible; but there are no HDMI connectors on this box anywhere.

Interestingly enough there is a USB socket on the back, and the manuals don't even mention it. So I don't know what that is for. It's the same type of socket you find on the back of PC's and Macs.

> I can not recommend a specific device but anything that
> converts hdmi to the component video that your system needs is a
> candidate.
> 
I'm not really looking to spend more money on this thing to be honest. And, of course, this thing uses software and so now that I've broken the seal on it, I can't return it.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Dec  8 21:47:50 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:47:50 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
In-Reply-To: <78DEC09F-ED70-483A-B217-83ABB0C3EC08@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012082120.oB8LKpsQ001925@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<78DEC09F-ED70-483A-B217-83ABB0C3EC08@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9A817BAA-680D-45C1-A2AD-B840E845DFC9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Oopse! Sorry about that, I forgot to change the accounts.

Lynne

On 8 Dec 2010, at 21:47, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 8 Dec 2010, at 21:20, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> ? 	Since HDMI is a digital stream containing both the HD
>> video and audio data plus key data for DRM, your only recourse
>> is to convert the HDMI signal in to component video which is
>> analog but not to be confused with "composite" video, the yellow
>> plug.
>> 
> Yes, I understand all that. But what I can't understand is why on earth an HD device is sold like this. Over here in the UK at least, just about every HD device uses HDMI as far as I'm aware. Surely these people must be aware of that fact. So why sell something that is very obviously incompatible with the majority of equipment in the country where the item is being sold, I wonder.
> 
> I have to say I'm extremely disappointed in this. I was looking for an HD network solution so that we could watch HD TV anywhere in the house. The Slingbox Pro device we have is capable of doing everything that this one does for us, based on our equipment. It uses standard definition and optionally, component video. That's fine, but it doesn't claim to be an HD ready device.
> 
> So, I thought, why not buy us the HD version and have it all clean and easy to use.
> 
> But no, it seems, these people have different ideas. They say that component video is used in high-end video devices. That's probably true; but all UK equipment I've ever seen that supports HD uses HDMI connectivity as I said. So what's the point claiming it is HD ready? Unless, of course, I'm missing something. That's entirely possible; but there are no HDMI connectors on this box anywhere.
> 
> Interestingly enough there is a USB socket on the back, and the manuals don't even mention it. So I don't know what that is for. It's the same type of socket you find on the back of PC's and Macs.
> 
>> I can not recommend a specific device but anything that
>> converts hdmi to the component video that your system needs is a
>> candidate.
>> 
> I'm not really looking to spend more money on this thing to be honest. And, of course, this thing uses software and so now that I've broken the seal on it, I can't return it.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec  8 21:51:17 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:51:17 -0600
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
Message-ID: <201012082151.oB8LpHBF002256@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I could not remember what HDMI actually stands for so I
refreshed my memory via google and it is "High Definition
Multimedia Interface." It must be very confusing.

Martin McCormick

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
>I have to admit 
> that had I known that HD didn't mean HDMI I don't think I'd have bought 
> this device. But there we are, what's done is done.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec  8 22:06:26 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 16:06:26 -0600
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
Message-ID: <201012082206.oB8M6QG5002394@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Actually, I think this is a world-wide problem. If you
go to a shop here in the heart of the USA to buy a modern
television or any of the other devices such as DVR's or DVD
players, one finds the same profusion of incompatible connectors
and interfaces that you are describing. My wife recently bought
a new little flat-screen television and it works great, but we
had real fun connecting it to a DVD player that seemed to have
every output in the world but what we needed. The TV had every
input in the world except what the DVD player had to offer. I
forget what I finally did, but we may have ended up using the
Svideo interface or maybe the composite video which is a shame
because the TV had HDMI and the player had no HDMI output. It is
a very inexpensive player, however.

	Still, one can spend tons of money and still be staring
at some odd-looking connector on each box and no way to connect
them.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Wed Dec  8 22:23:06 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:23:06 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012082206.oB8M6QG5002394@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012082206.oB8M6QG5002394@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <700C3C5F-790A-4957-BD9E-70D5235F5724@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

I will top-post to save you scrolling down.

This device has composite video and SVideo as well as digital audio connectivity. But that is exactly the same as the previous box we had. The only reason I decided to upgrade is that I wanted HD. But our devices simply don't have component video, they all use HDMI for their HD outputs and composite for SD output.

In other words, 200 Pounds wasted! It has also irritated me because it was supposed to be part of Gordon's Christmas present; but we opted to set it up before he got home from hospital.

We have 2 friends staying with us over Christmas and new year, they've flown over from Florida to be with us. The husband, Leonard, is agreeing with what you are saying. He is a retired engineer and he says that incompatibility was the devil of his life at one time. Leonard didn't work in the field of TV electronics. But he was an electronics specialist working on various types of equipment for one of the large oil corporations based in Texas, USA.

Anyway I'm getting off the point. The point here is that he says you're right; but it doesn't help us a great deal in this situation.

Lynne

On 8 Dec 2010, at 22:06, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? 	Actually, I think this is a world-wide problem. If you
> go to a shop here in the heart of the USA to buy a modern
> television or any of the other devices such as DVR's or DVD
> players, one finds the same profusion of incompatible connectors
> and interfaces that you are describing. My wife recently bought
> a new little flat-screen television and it works great, but we
> had real fun connecting it to a DVD player that seemed to have
> every output in the world but what we needed. The TV had every
> input in the world except what the DVD player had to offer. I
> forget what I finally did, but we may have ended up using the
> Svideo interface or maybe the composite video which is a shame
> because the TV had HDMI and the player had no HDMI output. It is
> a very inexpensive player, however.
> 
> 	Still, one can spend tons of money and still be staring
> at some odd-looking connector on each box and no way to connect
> them.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Thu Dec  9 03:37:58 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:37:58 -0600
Subject: Video Connectivity Question
In-Reply-To: <80175F2B-A01A-47F1-98DA-A6BAA815DD5C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <80175F2B-A01A-47F1-98DA-A6BAA815DD5C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7E95B814-A801-4567-AD13-AE77BCE717A1@softcon.com>

I know this doesn't help you any, but here in the states, Radio shack  
(my version isn't fit for posting on the list) sells all sorts of  
adapters, and if you can actually find someone who knows what they're  
talking about, they'll show you a nice little adapter box with just  
about every connector known to man, I obtained one a couple years ago,  
and it had firewire, svideo, hdmi, rca, and one I still don't  
recognize, and never heard of before, so no idea what it is.  However,  
the box was something like 25 bucks (if I remember correctly, could be  
wrong there) and I'd bought it for connecting a dvd player to our  
*really* old tv, which didn't have the dvd connectors on it.  Turns  
out it wasn't useful for that, since the tv didn't have any compatible  
plugs, so I wound up purchasing another device for the conversion, but  
kept this little box, because it looked so useful.  Of course, I've  
still not found a use for it, but I suspect if we ever purchase a  
hidef tv, or get a video card with svideo on it, I can use it then,  
but the point of all of this monologue is that there are converters  
for doing what you ask, but I haven't a clue what you'd pay over  
there, or where to obtain them.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 02:40:25 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:40:25 -0800
Subject: Is your water bottle trying to tell you something? 
Message-ID: <1D071C92-692C-4B61-95A6-9E854BE7896E@gmail.com>

Will this take off in  the sports community and the hospitals as well? read more: http://bit.ly/hCXu6G

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec  9 11:57:10 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:57:10 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question
In-Reply-To: <7E95B814-A801-4567-AD13-AE77BCE717A1@softcon.com>
References: <80175F2B-A01A-47F1-98DA-A6BAA815DD5C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<7E95B814-A801-4567-AD13-AE77BCE717A1@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <AD1E70D5-BBA8-4B62-BE09-20ECA9C3C063@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Travis

We do have a similar retailer over here actually so I'll check there. But the point here is that with conversion goes quality. All of our equipment uses HDMI and Tosslink, I think they call it. It's entirely digital rather than analogue and you can definitely tell the difference in both audio and video quality.

As I understand it, component video is an analogue format so you're most likely going to lose quality. Overall it's disappointing to say the least.

Lynne

On 9 Dec 2010, at 03:37, Travis Siegel wrote:

> ? I know this doesn't help you any, but here in the states, Radio shack (my version isn't fit for posting on the list) sells all sorts of adapters, and if you can actually find someone who knows what they're talking about, they'll show you a nice little adapter box with just about every connector known to man, I obtained one a couple years ago, and it had firewire, svideo, hdmi, rca, and one I still don't recognize, and never heard of before, so no idea what it is.  However, the box was something like 25 bucks (if I remember correctly, could be wrong there) and I'd bought it for connecting a dvd player to our *really* old tv, which didn't have the dvd connectors on it.  Turns out it wasn't useful for that, since the tv didn't have any compatible plugs, so I wound up purchasing another device for the conversion, but kept this little box, because it looked so useful.  Of course, I've still not found a use for it, but I suspect if we ever purchase a hidef tv, or get a video card with svideo on it, I can use it then, but the point of all of this monologue is that there are converters for doing what you ask, but I haven't a clue what you'd pay over there, or where to obtain them.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Dec  9 15:11:51 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 09:11:51 -0600
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
Message-ID: <201012091511.oB9FBpvv008175@x.it.okstate.edu>

	It sounds like you have some very good technical support
close at hand to help you with the details, but I will toss out
some ideas to consider as you go from here. Does this server,
for want of a better term, support more than one signal source
at a time? If so, each input will need an analog converter from
the HDMI link. As for quality of signal, a proper HDMI converter
which has a component video output is really not all that
different than what goes on inside each television. The HDMI
signal is decoded by very similar hardware to what is in an
external converter box in to multi-channel sound, maybe, 5.1
channels, and analog video which is basically component video.
There are sync signals plus color video lines, one each for red,
green and blue and all are fed in to the video display circuitry
to produce your picture. An external converter would limit the
picture quality on all sets to as good as that converter can
deliver, but a good properly-working converter would probably be
indistinguishable from a straight-through HDMI connection.

	As I alluded to earlier, if you were expecting to have
scores of channels simultaneously available on your home
network, the converter idea is ridiculous as you would have a
stack of them, not to mention the additional cost but one or
even two should not break the bank.

	This sort of gets in to philosophy rather than
technology, but you don't want perfect to destroy good enough.
If you are lucky enough to find a patient video merchant, they
might have a big, expensive monitor you can watch as they switch
a signal from HDMI to component video through a converter and
you can see if you can tell the difference. Look especially
critically at rapid movement scenes to see if there are
artifacts in the converter that you don't see when looking at
the television's own converter.

	Keep in mind that big plasma color sets cost more than a
lot of us make in a year so they hopefully have fantastic
decoding circuitry that is better than your average Sony Bravia
or similar set but a decent converter box from HDMI to component
video should be as good as the analog conversion circuits that
every digital TV has to have in order for you to watch the
picture.

	I am sorry to ramble but I have exhausted my limited
knowledge store.

	Let us know how things go.

Martin

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Hello Travis
> 
> We do have a similar retailer over here actually so I'll check there. But 
> the point here is that with conversion goes quality. All of our equipment 
> uses HDMI and Tosslink, I think they call it. It's entirely digital 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec  9 18:29:48 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 18:29:48 +0000
Subject: Video Connectivity Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012091511.oB9FBpvv008175@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012091511.oB9FBpvv008175@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <724584C3-1FCE-4ED3-9665-EB6184842A47@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 9 Dec 2010, at 15:11, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? It sounds like you have some very good technical support
> close at hand to help you with the details, but I will toss out
> some ideas to consider as you go from here.

Now that Gordon's out of hospital he's been making some comment and suggestions.

> ? Does this server, for want of a better term, support more than one signal source
> at a time?

OK; to explain, this is a Slingbox Pro-HD device <http://www.slingbox.com> and it can handle up to 3 simultaneous external devices. 1 Would be HD/Component video. The second would be S Video. The third is composite video. There are also audio inputs and output for each device. It also has an coaxial input/output which you can use either with a cable box or as a stand-alone TV tuner. It has inbuilt analogue and digital tuners. but you can only set up 1 of those at a time.

> ? If so, each input will need an analog converter from
> the HDMI link.

No, there is only 1 HD input on it. So the rest are already analogue.

> ? As for quality of signal, a proper HDMI converter which has a component video output is really not all that different than what goes on inside each television. The HDMI
> signal is decoded by very similar hardware to what is in an external converter box in to multi-channel sound, maybe, 5.1 channels, and analog video which is basically component video.
> There are sync signals plus color video lines, one each for red, green and blue and all are fed in to the video display circuitry to produce your picture. An external converter would limit the
> picture quality on all sets to as good as that converter can deliver, but a good properly-working converter would probably be indistinguishable from a straight-through HDMI connection.
> 
Fair comment.

> ? As I alluded to earlier, if you were expecting to have scores of channels simultaneously available on your home network, the converter idea is ridiculous as you would have a
> stack of them, not to mention the additional cost but one or even two should not break the bank.
> 
No. All we would need is one single converter to handle one input and possibly one output. Gordon has just reminded me actually that there was a cable type thing which came with our original slingbox Pro that has component in/out and audio in/out sockets on it and the end of the cable is terminated with an HDMI connector. But I don't know whether that's what we need or not. I guess we will have to try it and if it works then that's the problem solved.

> ? This sort of gets in to philosophy rather than technology, but you don't want perfect to destroy good enough. If you are lucky enough to find a patient video merchant, they might have a big, expensive monitor you can watch as they switch
> a signal from HDMI to component video through a converter and
> you can see if you can tell the difference. Look especially
> critically at rapid movement scenes to see if there are
> artifacts in the converter that you don't see when looking at
> the television's own converter.
> 
I don't think that's likely to happen. But I'll notice because I can definitely tell the difference, of course, between SD and HD.

> ? Keep in mind that big plasma color sets cost more than a
> lot of us make in a year so they hopefully have fantastic
> decoding circuitry that is better than your average Sony Bravia
> or similar set but a decent converter box from HDMI to component
> video should be as good as the analog conversion circuits that
> every digital TV has to have in order for you to watch the
> picture.
> 
I'm using a 60-inch LG TV now, so I'm expecting big things, pardon the pun, from this set.

> * I am sorry to ramble but I have exhausted my limited
> knowledge store.
> 
Don't worry about it. You know a lot more than I.

> ? Let us know how things go.
> 
I will, and thank you.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 19:11:06 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:11:06 -0800
Subject: Cybercrooks create fake Amazon receipts 
Message-ID: <D909F884-97B2-47ED-8465-51DF94CB418D@gmail.com>

What will these scammers come up with next? read more: http://bit.ly/epSPiv

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Fri Dec 10 17:10:33 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane trethowan)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 04:10:33 +1100
Subject: Radios new yet old
Message-ID: <4D025F09.9050506@internode.on.net>

Doing online Christmas shopping and came across this incredible find and 
for those who love their radio and the sound then I reckon it would be 
worth the money.
http://www.stereophonic.com.au/products/Cayin-SP105i-FM-radio-.html


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 19:56:07 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:56:07 -0800
Subject: How to Export Your Friends' Email Addresses from Facebook 
Message-ID: <69E58167-7047-48AE-9F36-E8A860BA6BAE@gmail.com>

I just ran across this. It is a few weeks old but it is still good. HOpe fb does not block this. Read more: http://t.co/0xFibn0 via @lifehacker

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 11 21:30:11 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 21:30:11 +0000
Subject: I am curious
Message-ID: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello everybody


Just curious since I see so many people talking about Facebook on our lists. How do you, as blind people, manage to sign up to that network and others which require image verification? Do you just have to get visual help or is there another way? I gather that Solona is not now as workable as it was.

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 22:08:05 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 14:08:05 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>

There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try and enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that but it works.

S
On Dec 11, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> 
> Just curious since I see so many people talking about Facebook on our lists. How do you, as blind people, manage to sign up to that network and others which require image verification? Do you just have to get visual help or is there another way? I gather that Solona is not now as workable as it was.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 11 22:24:31 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 22:24:31 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 11 Dec 2010, at 22:08, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try and enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that but it works.
> 
First, I am sorry if my question offended any list members. It apparently did offend one person who just left the group because of it.

The audio solution doesn't work everywhere though, does it. I know I have seen a lot of sites where the audio option doesn't exist.

I've just been told about a plugin for the Windows version of Firefox but that doesn't really cover it I think.

Lynne


From tvii at optonline.net  Sat Dec 11 21:54:58 2010
From: tvii at optonline.net (John Panarese)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:54:58 -0500
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3AF6FC08-AE93-47A0-9566-61BF06778756@optonline.net>

   I cheated.  I had someone with sight set it up.  Actually, I wasn't ken on the idea, but I was reluctantly talked into it.  The deal was they did all the setup and so forth, so I didn't have to deal with it.



Take Care

John Panarese

On Dec 11, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello everybody
> 
> 
> Just curious since I see so many people talking about Facebook on our lists. How do you, as blind people, manage to sign up to that network and others which require image verification? Do you just have to get visual help or is there another way? I gather that Solona is not now as workable as it was.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 00:44:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:44:04 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
	<1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <22E255AA-42F7-4260-B5E5-07777DCFF1A9@gmail.com>

Yeah webvisum  but sometimes that doesn't work and it only works for firefox.

and no the audio captcha is not everywhere.

I'm sorry to see that person go. After all you were curious and you have every right to be.
On Dec 11, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 11 Dec 2010, at 22:08, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try and enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that but it works.
>> 
> First, I am sorry if my question offended any list members. It apparently did offend one person who just left the group because of it.
> 
> The audio solution doesn't work everywhere though, does it. I know I have seen a lot of sites where the audio option doesn't exist.
> 
> I've just been told about a plugin for the Windows version of Firefox but that doesn't really cover it I think.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec 12 10:54:47 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 10:54:47 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <22E255AA-42F7-4260-B5E5-07777DCFF1A9@gmail.com>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
	<1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<22E255AA-42F7-4260-B5E5-07777DCFF1A9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DFB40FA-1727-462E-8291-0986E5A08DFF@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 12 Dec 2010, at 00:44, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Yeah webvisum  but sometimes that doesn't work and it only works for firefox.
> 
I honestly don't see that as a fair solution to the issue. There is no getting away from the fact that the image verification technology is discriminatory in nature.

I've seen Microsoft's so-called solution to the issue, whereby they will send you a gargled audio version of the image. Why should the audio be garbled? It's still unfair on those people who simply can't pull the audio out of the mess that drowns it out.

I feel strongly about this and other discriminatory practices which make life difficult for the disabled. And you'll note that I said the disabled, not just the visually impaired.

> ? and no the audio captcha is not everywhere.
> 
No, it isn't. And that in itself is something which I'm amazed that the powers that be have not jumped on. They shout about making web content accessible; as in the guidelines which impact on US academic institutions and we here in the UK have our own versions of those actually. But they conveniently don't do anything to prevent the abuse which, I believe, this imaging technology constitutes.

> ? I'm sorry to see that person go. After all you were curious and you have every right to be.
> On Dec 11, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
I think it's because this person believed that the list is restricted to the visually impaired. I should make it very clear now to all members that we do not restrict this group or any of our groups to the vision impaired. If somebody without a disability chooses to join us, they are most welcome to do so.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 18:48:28 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 10:48:28 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <5DFB40FA-1727-462E-8291-0986E5A08DFF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
	<1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<22E255AA-42F7-4260-B5E5-07777DCFF1A9@gmail.com>
	<5DFB40FA-1727-462E-8291-0986E5A08DFF@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <04658424-1230-4F53-8EF7-E5F184ABC3F3@gmail.com>

Oh I understand  and I've contacted many a web master. Oh and there was an article somewhere a few  years ago of how a bot cracked a captcha and signed up so the sight thought it was a human.

Anyway I've contacted many a sight admin about this but they don't care, or they say it will change and 6 months later it is  not. I asked webvisum about firefox being the only solution and they said they would never do IE as it was  a security risk which I don't understand.
Take care. 
On Dec 12, 2010, at 2:54 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 00:44, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? Yeah webvisum  but sometimes that doesn't work and it only works for firefox.
>> 
> I honestly don't see that as a fair solution to the issue. There is no getting away from the fact that the image verification technology is discriminatory in nature.
> 
> I've seen Microsoft's so-called solution to the issue, whereby they will send you a gargled audio version of the image. Why should the audio be garbled? It's still unfair on those people who simply can't pull the audio out of the mess that drowns it out.
> 
> I feel strongly about this and other discriminatory practices which make life difficult for the disabled. And you'll note that I said the disabled, not just the visually impaired.
> 
>> ? and no the audio captcha is not everywhere.
>> 
> No, it isn't. And that in itself is something which I'm amazed that the powers that be have not jumped on. They shout about making web content accessible; as in the guidelines which impact on US academic institutions and we here in the UK have our own versions of those actually. But they conveniently don't do anything to prevent the abuse which, I believe, this imaging technology constitutes.
> 
>> ? I'm sorry to see that person go. After all you were curious and you have every right to be.
>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
>> 
> I think it's because this person believed that the list is restricted to the visually impaired. I should make it very clear now to all members that we do not restrict this group or any of our groups to the vision impaired. If somebody without a disability chooses to join us, they are most welcome to do so.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 19:28:33 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:28:33 -0800
Subject: Goldman Sachs Programmer Found Guilty of Stealing Code
Message-ID: <83BB6E63-88BA-4597-97F8-33CF78C6F4D3@gmail.com>

Did he really only collect his source code? read more:   http://bit.ly/fJgDs9

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 00:08:49 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:08:49 +0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Microsoft_Backtracks_on_Accessibility_in_New_Mobi?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?le_Operating_System=2C_Commits_to_Accessibility_i?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?n_Future_Windows_Phone_Platform_-_AccessWorld=AE_?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?-_December_2010?=
Message-ID: <D1C2B441-000F-4936-A2BA-376BF0BE6B01@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Makes us glad we went Apple. Thank you, James.

Lynne


http://www.afb.org/afbpress/Pub.asp?DocID=aw110802&Special=268


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 13 04:28:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:28:02 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Microsoft_Backtracks_on_Accessibility_in_Ne?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?w_Mobile_Operating_System=2C_Commits_to_Accessibi?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?lity_in_Future_Windows_Phone_Platform_-_AccessWor?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?ld=AE_-_December_2010?=
In-Reply-To: <D1C2B441-000F-4936-A2BA-376BF0BE6B01@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <D1C2B441-000F-4936-A2BA-376BF0BE6B01@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B1B3697D-392D-441C-925D-2D23E19A3F69@gmail.com>

Yeah tha'ts a bit of an oops on ms's part. A friend of mine looked at it and the tts is not even there.

S
On Dec 12, 2010, at 4:08 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Makes us glad we went Apple. Thank you, James.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> http://www.afb.org/afbpress/Pub.asp?DocID=aw110802&Special=268
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 11:15:25 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:15:25 +0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Microsoft_Backtracks_on_Accessibility_in_Ne?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?w_Mobile_Operating_System=2C_Commits_to_Accessibi?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?lity_in_Future_Windows_Phone_Platform_-_AccessWor?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?ld=AE_-_December_2010?=
In-Reply-To: <B1B3697D-392D-441C-925D-2D23E19A3F69@gmail.com>
References: <D1C2B441-000F-4936-A2BA-376BF0BE6B01@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B1B3697D-392D-441C-925D-2D23E19A3F69@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7411FCCF-EC33-44BF-BB68-37309ECB2B6D@tft-bbs.co.uk>

I think it's pretty despicable of them to be honest, although not surprising.  Now, although I own an iPhone and, as such, had no plans to go the Microsoft route, I'm certainly not laughing.  Those blind people who do like their Microsoft products should be banding together to lobby the ignorant developers.

Gordon

On 13 Dec 2010, at 04:28, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Yeah tha'ts a bit of an oops on ms's part. A friend of mine looked at it and the tts is not even there.


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Dec 13 14:26:17 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:26:17 -0500
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>

The audio CAPCHA works just fine when signing up for Facebook. There 
are a lot of web sites that have the alternatives, even if they are not 
the most accessible web sites otherwise. *grin*

Mary
Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello everybody
>
>
> Just curious since I see so many people talking about Facebook on our
> lists. How do you, as blind people, manage to sign up to that network
> and others which require image verification? Do you just have to get
> visual help or is there another way? I gather that Solona is not now
> as workable as it was.
>
> Lynne
>
>
>




From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Dec 13 14:29:43 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:29:43 -0500
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
	<1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101213092943.c8wi2hsvksgwks88@webmail.iu.edu>

I am sorry someone got offended over a question of curiosity. I guess 
that's really their problem. How else are you spposed to learn if you 
don't ask.

Some people don't have the accessible alternative CAPCHAs, so that is 
why it would not work. Some audio versions are easier to understand 
than others. I have also seen where you can answer a simple question by 
entering it into a text field, such as "What is two plus two" or "what 
is the fifth letter in the alphabet?"

I think most sighted folks hate the CAPChA images as well. So, Sara, 
you aren't alone in that.



Mary
Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> Hello Sarah
>
> On 11 Dec 2010, at 22:08, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>
>> ? There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try
>> and enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that
>> but it works.
>>
> First, I am sorry if my question offended any list members. It
> apparently did offend one person who just left the group because of
> it.
>
> The audio solution doesn't work everywhere though, does it. I know I
> have seen a lot of sites where the audio option doesn't exist.
>
> I've just been told about a plugin for the Windows version of Firefox
> but that doesn't really cover it I think.
>
> Lynne



From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net  Mon Dec 13 14:43:42 2010
From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net (Gordon &Lynne Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:43:42 +0000
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
Message-ID: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>

Hello all; we're mobile at hospital at the moment. Just talking to a nurse about his as she has a Windows 7 based mobile phone.

I wonder what their plans are, as there new phone she has doesn't look anything like the Windows I have seen. But there again that wasn't mobile.

So I wonder if they plan to re-introduce accessibility. I personally think it is an outrage that they removed it.

Lynne


_______________________________________

Gordon & Lynne Smith;
gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net

VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971
Fax: +44--1642-365-123

We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 15:02:15 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:02:15 +0000
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
In-Reply-To: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>

Lynne,

Technically Microsoft have not removed accessibility, Windows Mobile 7 was written from the ground up and is not backward compatible with version 6.5 and they did not release any SDK to Code Factory etc.  Accessibility could be added in the future but it is uncertain if microsoft will built this in or open it back up to third parties.  The Apple iPhone was not accessible when first launched and did not include accessibility until the 3rd release of the iPhone and iOs.  I guess Windows Mobile users will have to wait 
On 13 Dec 2010, at 14:43, Gordon &Lynne Smith wrote:

> Hello all; we're mobile at hospital at the moment. Just talking to a nurse about his as she has a Windows 7 based mobile phone.
> 
> I wonder what their plans are, as there new phone she has doesn't look anything like the Windows I have seen. But there again that wasn't mobile.
> 
> So I wonder if they plan to re-introduce accessibility. I personally think it is an outrage that they removed it.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________
> 
> Gordon & Lynne Smith;
> gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net
> 
> VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
> MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971
> Fax: +44--1642-365-123
> 
> We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Dec 13 15:40:52 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 02:40:52 +1100
Subject: Mobile Phone accessibility for the future
In-Reply-To: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <5F4950A4-9A01-443C-8E9D-F402FF9FFEAE@internode.on.net>

I asked this question of someone who works in the accessibility field and he told me that implimenting accessibility into the Windows 7 Mobile operating system was impossible given the way it was designed? Well that's what I was told so we'll have to wait and see on that one <smile> but I think it a great shame that before too long it would seem, Apple's Iphone and Ipad will be the only accessible touch screen devices available which blind users can use straight "Out Of The Box", I was hoping that the Google Android phones might offer us something but Goole seems about as interested in accessibility as most other manufacturers are, not at all interested.

Nokia S60 mobile phones are dying a slow death and with them Talks I would imagine though I think Nuance won't be all that concerned about it and the people behind Mobile speak have other projects to concentrate on such as accessibility for the Blackberry.

Nokia are moving towards a LYNUX based operating system shortly so whether this will have any benefits in the world of accessibility? Well we'll just have to wait and see but Nokia have not given any indication of intentions to make future phones accessible right out of the package, actually software for existing Nokia phones would have to be some of the most inaccessible software on the planet for Windows PC's right now <smile>.


On 14/12/2010, at 1:43 AM, Gordon &Lynne Smith wrote:

> Hello all; we're mobile at hospital at the moment. Just talking to a nurse about his as she has a Windows 7 based mobile phone.
> 
> I wonder what their plans are, as there new phone she has doesn't look anything like the Windows I have seen. But there again that wasn't mobile.
> 
> So I wonder if they plan to re-introduce accessibility. I personally think it is an outrage that they removed it.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________
> 
> Gordon & Lynne Smith;
> gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net
> 
> VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
> MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971
> Fax: +44--1642-365-123
> 
> We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Dec 13 15:41:46 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 02:41:46 +1100
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
In-Reply-To: <F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
	<F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <95559667-CC2F-4F07-AEFA-F2FC88B3C270@internode.on.net>

Thanks for that, now I can see what my friend was driving it <smile>.


On 14/12/2010, at 2:02 AM, Chris Moore wrote:

> Lynne,
> 
> Technically Microsoft have not removed accessibility, Windows Mobile 7 was written from the ground up and is not backward compatible with version 6.5 and they did not release any SDK to Code Factory etc.  Accessibility could be added in the future but it is uncertain if microsoft will built this in or open it back up to third parties.  The Apple iPhone was not accessible when first launched and did not include accessibility until the 3rd release of the iPhone and iOs.  I guess Windows Mobile users will have to wait 
> On 13 Dec 2010, at 14:43, Gordon &Lynne Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello all; we're mobile at hospital at the moment. Just talking to a nurse about his as she has a Windows 7 based mobile phone.
>> 
>> I wonder what their plans are, as there new phone she has doesn't look anything like the Windows I have seen. But there again that wasn't mobile.
>> 
>> So I wonder if they plan to re-introduce accessibility. I personally think it is an outrage that they removed it.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________
>> 
>> Gordon & Lynne Smith;
>> gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net
>> 
>> VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET
>> MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971
>> Fax: +44--1642-365-123
>> 
>> We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe!
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 17:43:39 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:43:39 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <6E87396B-096A-499D-9B64-81D2DD47C0E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 13 Dec 2010, at 14:26, Mary Stores wrote:

> The audio CAPCHA works just fine when signing up for Facebook. There are a lot of web sites that have the alternatives, even if they are not the most accessible web sites otherwise. *grin*
> 
That's fine; if the audio is intelligible. But take Microsoft's for instance on the Messenger page. It's appalling.

Lynne

> Mary
> Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:
> 
>> Hello everybody
>> 
>> 
>> Just curious since I see so many people talking about Facebook on our
>> lists. How do you, as blind people, manage to sign up to that network
>> and others which require image verification? Do you just have to get
>> visual help or is there another way? I gather that Solona is not now
>> as workable as it was.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 17:50:13 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:50:13 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <20101213092943.c8wi2hsvksgwks88@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<50366C1C-E5E6-439F-BA91-32C9154E4B46@gmail.com>
	<1CE9B9B5-BB37-41DA-B307-CC03F75A1DBE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213092943.c8wi2hsvksgwks88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <33EA8EA7-60BD-4501-B4B8-BE62D618A0DB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 13 Dec 2010, at 14:29, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? I am sorry someone got offended over a question of curiosity. I guess that's really their problem. How else are you spposed to learn if you don't ask.
> 
I think they thought this list was only for blind people judging by the snotty remarks I had made to the support address.

> ? Some people don't have the accessible alternative CAPCHAs, so that is why it would not work. Some audio versions are easier to understand than others. I have also seen where you can answer a simple question by entering it into a text field, such as "What is two plus two" or "what is the fifth letter in the alphabet?"
> 
I have no problem in theory with verification of status; that is reasonable. It's the way it is often done.

> ? I think most sighted folks hate the CAPChA images as well. So, Sara, you aren't alone in that.
> 
If you want the truth, from the perspective of a visually abled person, they're dreadful. Often the letters and digits look more like hand-written, scribbled symbols, than digits and letters. They slant and deviate all over the place and are often impossible to get right first go, even if you are fortunate, as I am, to have excellent vision.

Lynne


> 
> Mary
> Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:
> 
>> Hello Sarah
>> 
>> On 11 Dec 2010, at 22:08, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>> 
>>> ? There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try
>>> and enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that
>>> but it works.
>>> 
>> First, I am sorry if my question offended any list members. It
>> apparently did offend one person who just left the group because of
>> it.
>> 
>> The audio solution doesn't work everywhere though, does it. I know I
>> have seen a lot of sites where the audio option doesn't exist.
>> 
>> I've just been told about a plugin for the Windows version of Firefox
>> but that doesn't really cover it I think.
>> 
>> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 17:52:56 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:52:56 +0000
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
In-Reply-To: <F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
	<F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <70B8E836-6533-47BE-AB0B-754C28B210E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 13 Dec 2010, at 15:02, Chris Moore wrote:

> ? Technically Microsoft have not removed accessibility, Windows Mobile 7 was written from the ground up and is not backward compatible with version 6.5 and they did not release any SDK to Code Factory etc.  Accessibility could be added in the future but it is uncertain if microsoft will built this in or open it back up to third parties.  The Apple iPhone was not accessible when first launched and did not include accessibility until the 3rd release of the iPhone and iOs.  I guess Windows Mobile users will have to wait 

First, can I just point out that I didn't write the article. :) I only pointed a link to it, as it was forwarded to me by a friend.

You say they didn't remove it; I beg to differ because apparently, so I am told by another person, it was in the betas.

Lynne


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 18:12:22 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:12:22 +0000
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
In-Reply-To: <70B8E836-6533-47BE-AB0B-754C28B210E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
	<F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<70B8E836-6533-47BE-AB0B-754C28B210E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <51A2D358-1ABE-47A1-A865-F214633D6C5B@blueyonder.co.uk>

Lynne,

I am really not sure where you heard this about the beta, but I can assure you that is not the case.

Chris 
On 13 Dec 2010, at 17:52, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Chris
> 
> On 13 Dec 2010, at 15:02, Chris Moore wrote:
> 
>> ? Technically Microsoft have not removed accessibility, Windows Mobile 7 was written from the ground up and is not backward compatible with version 6.5 and they did not release any SDK to Code Factory etc.  Accessibility could be added in the future but it is uncertain if microsoft will built this in or open it back up to third parties.  The Apple iPhone was not accessible when first launched and did not include accessibility until the 3rd release of the iPhone and iOs.  I guess Windows Mobile users will have to wait 
> 
> First, can I just point out that I didn't write the article. :) I only pointed a link to it, as it was forwarded to me by a friend.
> 
> You say they didn't remove it; I beg to differ because apparently, so I am told by another person, it was in the betas.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 18:40:09 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:40:09 +0000
Subject: Microsoft's  Plans for Windows 7 Mobile
In-Reply-To: <51A2D358-1ABE-47A1-A865-F214633D6C5B@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <9F9F005A-9E76-4BFB-A33F-17123923DE40@mac-access.net>
	<F9952660-787E-4B28-A493-D6B2C312D731@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<70B8E836-6533-47BE-AB0B-754C28B210E6@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<51A2D358-1ABE-47A1-A865-F214633D6C5B@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9620076A-F533-4B73-986E-74483E6287CA@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 13 Dec 2010, at 18:12, Chris Moore wrote:
> 
> ? I am really not sure where you heard this about the beta, but I can assure you that is not the case.
> 
We were told by a developer of accessibility software that it was. But I'm not going to argue the case because it's only second-hand info I have and I can't prove it one way or the other.

Lynne

> Chris 
> On 13 Dec 2010, at 17:52, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
>> Hello Chris
>> 
>> On 13 Dec 2010, at 15:02, Chris Moore wrote:
>> 
>>> ? Technically Microsoft have not removed accessibility, Windows Mobile 7 was written from the ground up and is not backward compatible with version 6.5 and they did not release any SDK to Code Factory etc.  Accessibility could be added in the future but it is uncertain if microsoft will built this in or open it back up to third parties.  The Apple iPhone was not accessible when first launched and did not include accessibility until the 3rd release of the iPhone and iOs.  I guess Windows Mobile users will have to wait 
>> 
>> First, can I just point out that I didn't write the article. :) I only pointed a link to it, as it was forwarded to me by a friend.
>> 
>> You say they didn't remove it; I beg to differ because apparently, so I am told by another person, it was in the betas.
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From mstores at indiana.edu  Mon Dec 13 18:59:26 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:59:26 -0500
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <6E87396B-096A-499D-9B64-81D2DD47C0E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>
	<6E87396B-096A-499D-9B64-81D2DD47C0E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101213135926.bcsqze1rkss084oc@webmail.iu.edu>

I am not sure what else to say. I have given some positive examples 
here. I am sorry Microsoft's alternative thing is garbled. However, I 
know of several that aren't too difficult.

Quoting "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk>:

> That's fine; if the audio is intelligible. But take Microsoft's for
> instance on the Messenger page. It's appalling.



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 13 19:12:58 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:12:58 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <20101213135926.bcsqze1rkss084oc@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>
	<6E87396B-096A-499D-9B64-81D2DD47C0E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213135926.bcsqze1rkss084oc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <9E351A08-E3E5-4AA2-ABF5-68108FF2C92B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 13 Dec 2010, at 18:59, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? I am not sure what else to say. I have given some positive examples here. I am sorry Microsoft's alternative thing is garbled. However, I know of several that aren't too difficult.
> 
yes, as I said I totally agree. I perfectly understand the need for caution. And it's good that some designers make it more easy for those with disabilities. I just hope that the rest catch on quickly.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 13 23:56:45 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:56:45 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <9E351A08-E3E5-4AA2-ABF5-68108FF2C92B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <C7726E22-316A-48D9-A2BB-09847AD4EFAE@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213092617.l5nvejgjqco8wwok@webmail.iu.edu>
	<6E87396B-096A-499D-9B64-81D2DD47C0E2@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101213135926.bcsqze1rkss084oc@webmail.iu.edu>
	<9E351A08-E3E5-4AA2-ABF5-68108FF2C92B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2BF37271-0913-4E1C-A32B-613D3940BB08@gmail.com>

I don't know witht he fast [ast fo technology  I would not be surprised if they came out with something else wc cannot use captcha wise or audio wise.
On Dec 13, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Mary
> 
> On 13 Dec 2010, at 18:59, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> ? I am not sure what else to say. I have given some positive examples here. I am sorry Microsoft's alternative thing is garbled. However, I know of several that aren't too difficult.
>> 
> yes, as I said I totally agree. I perfectly understand the need for caution. And it's good that some designers make it more easy for those with disabilities. I just hope that the rest catch on quickly.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 14 06:12:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 22:12:08 -0800
Subject: Author's son: Mom slams e-book piracy but pirates songs 
Message-ID: <12075F76-42DA-4212-A8E3-EAEF0F21B39C@gmail.com>

I can't even give a summary for this article. I like the quote in the beginning of the article. read more:http://bit.ly/hO3aYs

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Tue Dec 14 15:29:33 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:29:33 -0600
Subject: I am curious 
Message-ID: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>

I don't think that question was out of line at all. It was a
reasonable attempt to find out how one who is blind gets past
those attempts by public site operators to discourage spambots
from getting access to the site.

	Facebook is not a problem for me because I have never
had a desire to be on it. My wife loves it but to me it simply
is not something I want to do.

	A lot of people would say the same about amateur radio
so to each their own, I guess.

	If amateur radio was just talking over the air to
others, I probably wouldn't be doing that either but it actually
exists to be of assistance in times of emergency. The American
Radio Relay League is this country's largest amateur radio
organization and they have adopted the motto, "when all else fails."

	I do enjoy talking to other amateur radio operators but
it is more the technical challenges of solving interesting
problems and figuring out what we could do when things go wrong
that excites me.

	When a collection of electronics and or mechanical gear
stops doing what it is supposed to do and everyone else is stuck
or runs away, knowing what to do to get things humming or, in
some cases, to stop humming when they were not supposed to do
so, is a real treat. It gets you positive attention and helps
get life back to normal sooner.

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 11 Dec 2010, at 22:08, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
> > ? There is, or should be an audio thing you listen to and you try and 
> enter in the letters or what ever you here. I hate doing that but it 
> works.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec 14 16:09:08 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:09:08 +0000
Subject: I am curious 
In-Reply-To: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 14 Dec 2010, at 15:29, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? I don't think that question was out of line at all. It was a
> reasonable attempt to find out how one who is blind gets past
> those attempts by public site operators to discourage spambots
> from getting access to the site.
> 
I was expressing a genuine intest in how these things worked. I intended no offence or insult towards anybody. But it is becoming very evident that, sadly, some people are taking everything I say completely out of context; whether because they think I'm intruding in their little world of blindness or what, I just don't know. What's the difference between a blind person and somebody with excellent vision? Simple; the blind person's eyes don't work. It really is as strait forward as that. I have no problem with blindness; it is a disability like any other. i am genuinely interested in how things are for those who cannot see. As most people here know, my husband, (our list owner) is blind and I want to do all I can to help.

The offer of help and the hand of friendship is extended by me to every single person on this list; blind or otherwise. But sadly some people keep twisting things which makes life a bit unpleasant at times. The person who left the group seems to be one of them.

Actually 2 people left over the weekend; but one wrote me a pretty nasty and obnoxious parting message.

> ? Facebook is not a problem for me because I have never
> had a desire to be on it. My wife loves it but to me it simply
> is not something I want to do.
> 
We are not on it either, but it is a good example.

> ? A lot of people would say the same about amateur radio
> so to each their own, I guess.
> 
Actually my other half is a radio amateur as well although not as active as he used to be.

> If amateur radio was just talking over the air to
> others, I probably wouldn't be doing that either but it actually
> exists to be of assistance in times of emergency. The American
> Radio Relay League is this country's largest amateur radio
> organization and they have adopted the motto, "when all else fails."
> 
yes, Gordon was involved in that during the 1988 December plain incident over Scotland which I'm sure you'll remember.

> I do enjoy talking to other amateur radio operators but
> it is more the technical challenges of solving interesting
> problems and figuring out what we could do when things go wrong
> that excites me.
> 
I guess the technical side of the hobby is far less exciting now that you don't have to know how to build anything. Gordon says that the UK license might as well be given away on a box of cereal these days.

He's telling me that the RAE now is just a matter of ticking boxes in multiple choice questions. When he took the exam in the early 80s he had to know how to calculate things like the dimensions of coils in power supplies, antenna designs and so on.

he says that the Morse test has now also gone and that you don't need to do much now to get a full radio amateur license in the UK.

> When a collection of electronics and or mechanical gear
> stops doing what it is supposed to do and everyone else is stuck
> or runs away, knowing what to do to get things humming or, in
> some cases, to stop humming when they were not supposed to do
> so, is a real treat. It gets you positive attention and helps
> get life back to normal sooner.
> 
Gordon says he also used to get kicks out of doing that. He hasn't changed in  nature; he'd still rather fiddle and figure things out than read manuals all day.

Lynne



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec 14 16:29:05 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:29:05 +0000
Subject: I am curious 
In-Reply-To: <E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>

Not reading manuals is a blokey thing i think, hate reading them myself unless completely stuck.  Blindness is a bit more challenging for me at present with it still being fairly recent, so I sadly have to do a bit more reading.

I am sorry to hear that your curiosity has offended a couple of people Lynne.  But I would rather someone ask me a question direct then talk or whisper behind my back or feel awkward because they are afraid to ask.  I have had to ask a lot of questions of late to find out how blind folk do stuff too as I have been landed in the position of being blind at the age of 38.

News Flash people, there are sighted folk on this list too.  Don't hate them just because they are (in your) mind not like you! i.e. blind!  I think some people just feel comfortable around their own and become a bit sheltered or institutionalised no matter what their sexual orientation, culture, gender, age etc.  Some just feel comfortable with their "own".  Big world out there, so mix with them all I say.

Mind saying that, I am a bit envious of people who can see, as I really do miss it, but don't hate anyone for it in any way or feel offended if asked questions about my disability etc.  It's called having a sense of humour.

Plus I can bitch like the best of em, so what I give out I can take back *wink.

I am sure I'll get some flame mail myself now *chuckle 

Chris
Heads back off to the real world.
On 14 Dec 2010, at 16:09, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 14 Dec 2010, at 15:29, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> ? I don't think that question was out of line at all. It was a
>> reasonable attempt to find out how one who is blind gets past
>> those attempts by public site operators to discourage spambots
>> from getting access to the site.
>> 
> I was expressing a genuine intest in how these things worked. I intended no offence or insult towards anybody. But it is becoming very evident that, sadly, some people are taking everything I say completely out of context; whether because they think I'm intruding in their little world of blindness or what, I just don't know. What's the difference between a blind person and somebody with excellent vision? Simple; the blind person's eyes don't work. It really is as strait forward as that. I have no problem with blindness; it is a disability like any other. i am genuinely interested in how things are for those who cannot see. As most people here know, my husband, (our list owner) is blind and I want to do all I can to help.
> 
> The offer of help and the hand of friendship is extended by me to every single person on this list; blind or otherwise. But sadly some people keep twisting things which makes life a bit unpleasant at times. The person who left the group seems to be one of them.
> 
> Actually 2 people left over the weekend; but one wrote me a pretty nasty and obnoxious parting message.
> 
>> ? Facebook is not a problem for me because I have never
>> had a desire to be on it. My wife loves it but to me it simply
>> is not something I want to do.
>> 
> We are not on it either, but it is a good example.
> 
>> ? A lot of people would say the same about amateur radio
>> so to each their own, I guess.
>> 
> Actually my other half is a radio amateur as well although not as active as he used to be.
> 
>> If amateur radio was just talking over the air to
>> others, I probably wouldn't be doing that either but it actually
>> exists to be of assistance in times of emergency. The American
>> Radio Relay League is this country's largest amateur radio
>> organization and they have adopted the motto, "when all else fails."
>> 
> yes, Gordon was involved in that during the 1988 December plain incident over Scotland which I'm sure you'll remember.
> 
>> I do enjoy talking to other amateur radio operators but
>> it is more the technical challenges of solving interesting
>> problems and figuring out what we could do when things go wrong
>> that excites me.
>> 
> I guess the technical side of the hobby is far less exciting now that you don't have to know how to build anything. Gordon says that the UK license might as well be given away on a box of cereal these days.
> 
> He's telling me that the RAE now is just a matter of ticking boxes in multiple choice questions. When he took the exam in the early 80s he had to know how to calculate things like the dimensions of coils in power supplies, antenna designs and so on.
> 
> he says that the Morse test has now also gone and that you don't need to do much now to get a full radio amateur license in the UK.
> 
>> When a collection of electronics and or mechanical gear
>> stops doing what it is supposed to do and everyone else is stuck
>> or runs away, knowing what to do to get things humming or, in
>> some cases, to stop humming when they were not supposed to do
>> so, is a real treat. It gets you positive attention and helps
>> get life back to normal sooner.
>> 
> Gordon says he also used to get kicks out of doing that. He hasn't changed in  nature; he'd still rather fiddle and figure things out than read manuals all day.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Tue Dec 14 22:11:37 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:11:37 +0000
Subject: I am curious 
In-Reply-To: <E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>

hello Chris

On 14 Dec 2010, at 16:29, Chris Moore wrote:

> ? Not reading manuals is a blokey thing i think, hate reading them myself unless completely stuck.  Blindness is a bit more challenging for me at present with it still being fairly recent, so I sadly have to do a bit more reading.
> 
Gordon avoids manuals like the proverbial plague unless absolutely forced and then it's only kicking and screaming so to speak. Me; I just watch and learn from his experience if you know what I mean.

> ? I am sorry to hear that your curiosity has offended a couple of people Lynne.  But I would rather someone ask me a question direct then talk or whisper behind my back or feel awkward because they are afraid to ask.  I have had to ask a lot of questions of late to find out how blind folk do stuff too as I have been landed in the position of being blind at the age of 38.
> 
That's the way I've always viewed it; but I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion here as it would be off topic. :)

> ? News Flash people, there are sighted folk on this list too.  Don't hate them just because they are (in your) mind not like you! i.e. blind!  I think some people just feel comfortable around their own and become a bit sheltered or institutionalised no matter what their sexual orientation, culture, gender, age etc.  Some just feel comfortable with their "own".  Big world out there, so mix with them all I say.
> 
Again, I find that really sad. Why should we be hated, vilified, call it what you will, just because we happen to have something you don't? You, as in you who are visually impaired or totally blind, not you as in Chris the individual. In fact I happen to know one person who does, I think, despise me because of the fact that I am not blind. Even though I have tried my very best to help this person I think he still has a real chip on his shoulder.

> ? Mind saying that, I am a bit envious of people who can see, as I really do miss it, but don't hate anyone for it in any way or feel offended if asked questions about my disability etc.  It's called having a sense of humour.
> 
There is a difference between envy and spite. I envy a lot of you because of your abilities where computers are concerned, or where other technology-related things are concerned. But I don't hate you, or feel vindictive spite towards you. Quite the reverse actually, I admire you all because of what you have achieved.

> ? Plus I can bitch like the best of em, so what I give out I can take back *wink.
> 
I hate that behaviour and will always just not write at all if the inclination to be bitchy should happen to hit me.

> ? I am sure I'll get some flame mail myself now *chuckle 
> 
I sincerely hope not. But from a technological perspective, I am curious to know something else and I'm going to ask it, even if it does offend the over-sensitive. So here goes.

Using a Mac, it's possible for a blind person and a visually abled person to work together at the same time because of the fact that there are no major adjustments that need to be made to the environment to accommodate VoiceOver.

I remember way back when, when Gordon was using Windows-based software as our server solutions; in order to work with him, I had to disable his screen-reader, make a couple more changes and then reboot the machine. The reverse had to be done for him to use the machine afterwards. So, here is my question. Is there such a thing as a solution for Windows which will allow somebody with vision and somebody without to work together at the same time, without going through all that nonsense of changing settings all over the place? if so, what might it be?

I ask because my friend's cousin has to use Windows for her college projects on a course she's starting in January. I employ her and am required to interact with her projects at times. It has to be in Windows, because the college only supports Windows, like so many other institutions.

So, is there a way around this irritating problem? They are insisting absolutely that she uses Windows for her course work, which we find odd because we are sure she could accomplish the same tasks under OSX which just happens to be her preferred environment these days.

Now; if there are some who are offended by my daring to suggest that the blind and the visually abled can work together, you may unsubscribe if you wish; I'm really not interested in begging anybody to stay.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec 15 15:03:28 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:03:28 -0600
Subject: I am curious 
Message-ID: <201012151503.oBFF3Sii060428@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:

> here is my question. Is there such a thing as a solution for Windows 
> which will allow somebody with vision and somebody without to work 
> together at the same time, without going through all that nonsense of 
> changing settings all over the place? if so, what might it be?

	I don't really think there is, but I hope I am wrong. I
truly despise Microsoft's attitude toward accessibility and I
cheerfully will do without a few things to not enrich their bank
balance or that of the companies selling accessibility solutions
to what passes for the Windows operating system.

	Sorry for the bit of grandstanding, but here is the
technical argument.

	Since Mac's use Unix, part of the accessibility issue is
naturally solved in that Unix has a sacrosanct concept of input
and output. Think of it this way. Unless your house is on fire,
or beset by some other physical calamity, you normally enter and
leave by the designated entrances. It's just so much easier to
open the door and walk through.

	In Unix, all data are sent to special files that handle
specific tasks such as the standard audio device to send and
receive data that will either play sound or record it, sometimes
at the same time.

	There is another special file that deals with visual
data for the video display.

	Software that serves as a screen reader or Braille
display driver only has to be essentially patched in to the
output chain to use those data. If there is text to be read, the
patch is done before the data are turned in to points of light
on the screen.

	This is oversimplification, but you can get the general
idea from this. Screen readers and Braille formatters may still
have to do a lot with the text to remove nuisance factors such
as lines of ASCII art, etc, but the data are all there.

	The same is true for speech synthesizers and Braille
displays in Linux or any other flavor of Unix. I use FreeBSD
Unix and Linux as well as the Mac at work all the time and all
one notices is that some flavors of Unix treat certain commands
differently but that has nothing to do with accessibility. Some
types of Unix such as Apple's Unix are patterned after BSD or
Berkeley Software Domain Unix. Linux is a little more like AT&T
Unix.

	Which one is best? Well, I can't answer that. It's like
asking parents which of their children do they like most. Each
one is best at some things and not so good at others so none of
them are bad. They are just unique.

	Microsoft, on the other hand, has no hard and fast rules
for input/output. Whatever floats your boat as a software
developer is okay. Oh, they do have a standard output defined
somewhere but nobody uses it. Back in the old DOS days, a lot of
people began writing their own screen routines that directly
referenced the actual screen buffers because programs ran much
faster if one did that and you could be certified as a true
computer geek if you tossed the recommended way and did it your way.

	So, we ended up with most DOS programs not being
accessible because there was no standard output to intercept.

	When Windows came along, sloppy practice was put right
in to the DNA and it has only gotten worse.

	The people who write access software for Windows have
had to do incredible tricks to make what does work to work and
every new application is more or less it's own little
dysfunctional world. It's truly rubbish and violates every thing
we ever learned about how to avoid trouble in information
technology.

	The screen readers written for DOS had to also do tricks
to get the inaccessible programs to work but it is nothing
compared to the total anarchy that passes for Windows.

	Don't get me totally wrong, there are rules, procedures,
software libraries galore, oh, and did I say rules? They just
don't have anything to do with making accessibility any easier.
It is all the modification and jake-leg engineering that tries
to make as much of Windows accessible as practical that explains
why Windows systems can't support sighted and blind users as
easily as Unix-based systems. It may very well be that one of
the expensive commercial access systems for Windows handles this
gracefully and lets you work side by side, but someone on this
list who knows more of the Windows side of things will have to
answer that.

	By the way. I wrote my own DOS screen reader in the
eighties. At the time, it cost me about two-hundred Dollars to
buy the 8086 assembler which was about what one of the DOS
screen readers of the day would have cost. I did not need
computers for work at the time so I began learning about how the
P.C. handled output data and how to write TSR's or "Terminate
and Stay Resident" programs. I also had to learn how to patch
the "hooks" that are used for input and output.

	It really was fun and sometimes frustrating but I learned
a lot. I used that screen reader until this year when the Linux
accessibility solutions such as "Vinux" came out that let me
finally ditch DOS.

Martin

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec 15 18:03:33 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:03:33 -0600
Subject: Christmas Rush
Message-ID: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Every year at Christmas time, I put a star on my amateur
radio tower. The star was made by my wife's father so it is
special in many ways. He cut it out of heavy cardboard that is
weather-resistant and cut holes around the arms of the star for
the lights of a 35-light set. I usually mount it on the tower
right after Thanksgiving day and take it down just after
New year's day.

	This year, it got very cold around November 26 and then
on this last weekend when it was somewhat warmer, I discovered
that the present light string which was several years old had
died. That's 35 little bulbs in series and one or more of the
connections in the sockets had opened up. Fortunately, I
discovered this before climbing the tower and then finding out
the problem. Several years ago, I was stupid enough not to test
it first.

	Corrosion over almost a year of sitting idle will cause
contacts to open and finding them is a chore. It is also better
from a safety standpoint to not let that stuff get too old.

	Anyway, we had a new set of lights so I removed the old
ones and installed the new lights. Thirty-four of them slid
right in to their holes
like they should but the material of the star, itself, is around
20 or more years old and I think it has ever so slightly
deformed so that the slots for the wire and little round hole
for the actual socket and lamp have shrunk slightly and it is
hard to fit. The last bulb absolutely refused to go in to place
so I kept messing with it until I heard and felt one of the 5
points break right off.

	After uttering a few choice un Christmas-like words, I
hit upon a plan to cut some wood to the shape of the broken arm,
drill a hole in it like the one  that was broken and cut a slot
for the wire.

	This formed a backing for the broken piece and Beverly
and I glued it along with the broken part so you can't really
tell anything happened. The glue had to set for several hours
and a new cold front blew in from the North. No snow, just ugly
brown Oklahoma Winter.

Yesterday afternoon, the sky was clear and we reached 47
Fahrenheit or 8 degrees Celsius. I walked home as fast as I dare
and changed clothes as fast as I could. The Sun was almost down
and the temperature was going to drop soon.

	The star is held on the tower by a large clamp that must
be tightened by a wrench. I have a canvas loop of strap that one
can stick one's arm through so the star rests on one's shoulder
as you climb.

	I wear a safety belt, of course and that really slows
things down because you have to balance that star while leaning
down to move the safety belt clamps up, one at a time so
climbing is done by a foot or two at a time.

	When I got to about the 35-foot or ten-meter level, I
clamped the holder for the star on to the leg of the tower and
pointed it due South where it is in view of the street past our
house. It was then a matter of tightening the clamp and plugging
in the cord which, of course, one never plugs in to power first.
After that, it was back down and go in and test it all out.

	It works!

	Today is another somewhat warm day. We may make 50 F or 10 C,
but the bottom falls out tonight.

	Beverly and I had agreed that if we hadn't gotten the
star up today, it would really have not been worth the effort to
put it up this year but we barely made it.

	Some of you might wonder why 7 degrees C or 46 F is not
so good. A jacket keeps one warm enough especially when climbing
and working, but the problem is the metal of the tower and one's
hands. Even at that above-freezing temperature, your hands
start to get numb pretty quickly against the cold metal. Gloves
are fine but when you get to where the work needs to be done,
you need to be able to feel everything like tools and parts and
whether the safety clamps are in the right place. Much colder
than that and it really gets kind of dangerous. I guess you
could say that one really gets blind when your hands get numb. I
got down just as they began to shut down.

Martin

From mstores at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 15 18:32:36 2010
From: mstores at indiana.edu (Mary Stores)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 13:32:36 -0500
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>

lynne wrote: Using a Mac, it's possible for a blind person and a 
visually abled
person to work together at the same time because of the fact that
there are no major adjustments that need to be made to the
environment to accommodate VoiceOver.
>
> I remember way back when, when Gordon was using Windows-based
> software as our server solutions; in order to work with him, I had to
> disable his screen-reader, make a couple more changes and then reboot
> the machine. The reverse had to be done for him to use the machine
> afterwards. So, here is my question. Is there such a thing as a
> solution for Windows which will allow somebody with vision and
> somebody without to work together at the same time, without going
> through all that nonsense of changing settings all over the place? if
> so, what might it be?
>
> I ask because my friend's cousin has to use Windows for her college
> projects on a course she's starting in January. I employ her and am
> required to interact with her projects at times. It has to be in
> Windows, because the college only supports Windows, like so many
> other institutions.
>
> So, is there a way around this irritating problem? They are insisting
> absolutely that she uses Windows for her course work, which we find
> odd because we are sure she could accomplish the same tasks under OSX
> which just happens to be her preferred environment these days.
>
> Now; if there are some who are offended by my daring to suggest that
> the blind and the visually abled can work together, you may
> unsubscribe if you wish; I'm really not interested in begging anybody
> to stay.
>
Well, I work with a lot of sighted folks. In fact, I'm the only blind 
person in the office of about 12 staff members, and I find that (gasp!) 
I have to work with sighted folks.

One thing that we have to collaborate on is when we do our web site 
assessments. Sometimes it's necessary to take a screenshot of an open 
JAWS dialog so that people will get that ah-ha moment as to why 
following a particular guideline would be important. Trouble is, Brian 
finds it hard to tell me where I should focus to take that screenshot.

In listening to the JAWS 12 podcast, it seems that the folks at Freedom 
assume the only time that blind and sighted folks would work together 
is to resolve some sort of technical issue. So focus in menus is 
visible. But that is it, at least in my experience. I have no problem 
with the sighted people I work with taking control of the mouse, as 
long as they tell me first.

I don't know about NVDA, if support would allow blind and sighted folks 
to work together better because a sighted person could see what the 
blind person is hearing. But I cn say that's one thing JAWS doesn't do 
very much.

Mary



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 23:50:02 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:50:02 -0800
Subject: Christmas Rush
In-Reply-To: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <6CAC862F-0E23-43A0-A3C4-FD1EA0765460@gmail.com>

Oh wow! sounds like  fun! Glad you got it done in time and I bet it looks beautiful!

Have a happy holidays and  hope it is a safe one

73.

S
On Dec 15, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Every year at Christmas time, I put a star on my amateur
> radio tower. The star was made by my wife's father so it is
> special in many ways. He cut it out of heavy cardboard that is
> weather-resistant and cut holes around the arms of the star for
> the lights of a 35-light set. I usually mount it on the tower
> right after Thanksgiving day and take it down just after
> New year's day.
> 
> 	This year, it got very cold around November 26 and then
> on this last weekend when it was somewhat warmer, I discovered
> that the present light string which was several years old had
> died. That's 35 little bulbs in series and one or more of the
> connections in the sockets had opened up. Fortunately, I
> discovered this before climbing the tower and then finding out
> the problem. Several years ago, I was stupid enough not to test
> it first.
> 
> 	Corrosion over almost a year of sitting idle will cause
> contacts to open and finding them is a chore. It is also better
> from a safety standpoint to not let that stuff get too old.
> 
> 	Anyway, we had a new set of lights so I removed the old
> ones and installed the new lights. Thirty-four of them slid
> right in to their holes
> like they should but the material of the star, itself, is around
> 20 or more years old and I think it has ever so slightly
> deformed so that the slots for the wire and little round hole
> for the actual socket and lamp have shrunk slightly and it is
> hard to fit. The last bulb absolutely refused to go in to place
> so I kept messing with it until I heard and felt one of the 5
> points break right off.
> 
> 	After uttering a few choice un Christmas-like words, I
> hit upon a plan to cut some wood to the shape of the broken arm,
> drill a hole in it like the one  that was broken and cut a slot
> for the wire.
> 
> 	This formed a backing for the broken piece and Beverly
> and I glued it along with the broken part so you can't really
> tell anything happened. The glue had to set for several hours
> and a new cold front blew in from the North. No snow, just ugly
> brown Oklahoma Winter.
> 
> Yesterday afternoon, the sky was clear and we reached 47
> Fahrenheit or 8 degrees Celsius. I walked home as fast as I dare
> and changed clothes as fast as I could. The Sun was almost down
> and the temperature was going to drop soon.
> 
> 	The star is held on the tower by a large clamp that must
> be tightened by a wrench. I have a canvas loop of strap that one
> can stick one's arm through so the star rests on one's shoulder
> as you climb.
> 
> 	I wear a safety belt, of course and that really slows
> things down because you have to balance that star while leaning
> down to move the safety belt clamps up, one at a time so
> climbing is done by a foot or two at a time.
> 
> 	When I got to about the 35-foot or ten-meter level, I
> clamped the holder for the star on to the leg of the tower and
> pointed it due South where it is in view of the street past our
> house. It was then a matter of tightening the clamp and plugging
> in the cord which, of course, one never plugs in to power first.
> After that, it was back down and go in and test it all out.
> 
> 	It works!
> 
> 	Today is another somewhat warm day. We may make 50 F or 10 C,
> but the bottom falls out tonight.
> 
> 	Beverly and I had agreed that if we hadn't gotten the
> star up today, it would really have not been worth the effort to
> put it up this year but we barely made it.
> 
> 	Some of you might wonder why 7 degrees C or 46 F is not
> so good. A jacket keeps one warm enough especially when climbing
> and working, but the problem is the metal of the tower and one's
> hands. Even at that above-freezing temperature, your hands
> start to get numb pretty quickly against the cold metal. Gloves
> are fine but when you get to where the work needs to be done,
> you need to be able to feel everything like tools and parts and
> whether the safety clamps are in the right place. Much colder
> than that and it really gets kind of dangerous. I guess you
> could say that one really gets blind when your hands get numb. I
> got down just as they began to shut down.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec 16 08:15:42 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:15:42 +0000
Subject: I am curious 
In-Reply-To: <201012151503.oBFF3Sii060428@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012151503.oBFF3Sii060428@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <95A592FC-0FA1-491C-AC4C-1C808C286659@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 15 Dec 2010, at 15:03, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
> ? I don't really think there is, but I hope I am wrong. I truly despise Microsoft's attitude toward accessibility and I cheerfully will do without a few things to not enrich their bank
> balance or that of the companies selling accessibility solutions to what passes for the Windows operating system.
> 
Gordon is periodically now having to use Windows 7 because of work requirements. But as and when we find solutions to Braille translation and DAISY publishing to match those offered by Duxbery for Windows and Dolphin Publisher (respectively), we will cheerfully delete the Windows partition. Our preference is Mac OSX any day of the week and I don't care what certain other people tell me about not giving things a fair go.

We've more than given Microsoft a "fair go" and it is only a matter of time before we find something to enable us to remove the Windows partition from our Mac's hard drive.

> ? Since Mac's use Unix, part of the accessibility issue is naturally solved in that Unix has a sacrosanct concept of input and output. Think of it this way. Unless your house is on fire,
> or beset by some other physical calamity, you normally enter and
> leave by the designated entrances. It's just so much easier to
> open the door and walk through.
> 
I'm told that Mac OSX is actually based on Free BSD; how true that is I don't know. I'm not sufficiently informed to argue the case one way or the other.

> In Unix, all data are sent to special files that handle specific tasks such as the standard audio device to send and receive data that will either play sound or record it, sometimes
> at the same time.
> 
But is that not true of Windows as well?

> ? There is another special file that deals with visual data for the video display.
> 
Again, same question.

> ? Software that serves as a screen reader or Braille display driver only has to be essentially patched in to the output chain to use those data. If there is text to be read, the patch is done before the data are turned in to points of light
> on the screen.
> 
I really and truly can't comment; I'm just what you might call a glorified "point 'n' clicker", who just happens to have learned a little tiny bit more from a vastly more knowledgeable and informed partner.

I have read, but have cut the rest of your post because of the above.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec 16 08:32:56 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:32:56 +0000
Subject: Christmas Rush
In-Reply-To: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <879A9B48-74AA-4036-8B46-FBCD3B911E44@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

Again, I read, but have cut your post. Your ingenuity and patience do you credit. I think we would have given up.

We don't have the land, (nor the money) to make a radio tower possible or practical. But I know that Gordon would love it if we did and I am sure it would reignite his interest in the hobby.

Maybe when we reach retirement age and or I sell the business, maybe then we can give more thought to something like that.

My business is now worth 20 times what it was when I bought it, even in the current climate. We have established it as a profitable concern after a lot of hard work, and a lot of agreement by my ever patient husband to take a huge number of risks with his money by putting it into my project.

It could have folded; and then there would we be! Broke, bankrupt and devastated. But instead we are doing well and Christmas on the business side of things only brings my planned expansion closer, as I take official possession of the adjoining building on 1 January 2011. But I am getting off topic; and I don't want to get into trouble from our list owner or our assistant list controller. :)

I am pleased that your project worked out; and I am even more pleased that the safety conscious people do still exist in this world.

My sister-in-law made the mistake of not testing her Christmas lights before assembly a couple of years ago. She woke up in the middle of the night just before Christmas to the strong smell of burning rubber and plastic.

Rushing downstairs she discovered the Christmas tree in flames and the fire was in danger of spreading to a nearby leather couch. She, of course, pulled out the power cords and then threw the burning tree out of the front door. Exposed to the high oxygen content outside, it went up like a torch and had she left things just a few more short seconds, I am sure the house would have been burned down.

After that experience, she throws her lights away every year and buys new. She doesn't have your technical knowledge and just doesn't trust to luck any longer.

We personally won't bother with any form of decorations, except the over 200 cards we've already received. I hang them on strings and they make a pretty sight.

Lynne

On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:03, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Every year at Christmas time, I put a star on my amateur
> radio tower. The star was made by my wife's father so it is
> special in many ways. He cut it out of heavy cardboard that is
> weather-resistant and cut holes around the arms of the star for
> the lights of a 35-light set. I usually mount it on the tower
> right after Thanksgiving day and take it down just after
> New year's day.
> 
> 	This year, it got very cold around November 26 and then
> on this last weekend when it was somewhat warmer, I discovered
> that the present light string which was several years old had
> died. That's 35 little bulbs in series and one or more of the
> connections in the sockets had opened up. Fortunately, I
> discovered this before climbing the tower and then finding out
> the problem. Several years ago, I was stupid enough not to test
> it first.
> 
> 	Corrosion over almost a year of sitting idle will cause
> contacts to open and finding them is a chore. It is also better
> from a safety standpoint to not let that stuff get too old.
> 
> 	Anyway, we had a new set of lights so I removed the old
> ones and installed the new lights. Thirty-four of them slid
> right in to their holes
> like they should but the material of the star, itself, is around
> 20 or more years old and I think it has ever so slightly
> deformed so that the slots for the wire and little round hole
> for the actual socket and lamp have shrunk slightly and it is
> hard to fit. The last bulb absolutely refused to go in to place
> so I kept messing with it until I heard and felt one of the 5
> points break right off.
> 
> 	After uttering a few choice un Christmas-like words, I
> hit upon a plan to cut some wood to the shape of the broken arm,
> drill a hole in it like the one  that was broken and cut a slot
> for the wire.
> 
> 	This formed a backing for the broken piece and Beverly
> and I glued it along with the broken part so you can't really
> tell anything happened. The glue had to set for several hours
> and a new cold front blew in from the North. No snow, just ugly
> brown Oklahoma Winter.
> 
> Yesterday afternoon, the sky was clear and we reached 47
> Fahrenheit or 8 degrees Celsius. I walked home as fast as I dare
> and changed clothes as fast as I could. The Sun was almost down
> and the temperature was going to drop soon.
> 
> 	The star is held on the tower by a large clamp that must
> be tightened by a wrench. I have a canvas loop of strap that one
> can stick one's arm through so the star rests on one's shoulder
> as you climb.
> 
> 	I wear a safety belt, of course and that really slows
> things down because you have to balance that star while leaning
> down to move the safety belt clamps up, one at a time so
> climbing is done by a foot or two at a time.
> 
> 	When I got to about the 35-foot or ten-meter level, I
> clamped the holder for the star on to the leg of the tower and
> pointed it due South where it is in view of the street past our
> house. It was then a matter of tightening the clamp and plugging
> in the cord which, of course, one never plugs in to power first.
> After that, it was back down and go in and test it all out.
> 
> 	It works!
> 
> 	Today is another somewhat warm day. We may make 50 F or 10 C,
> but the bottom falls out tonight.
> 
> 	Beverly and I had agreed that if we hadn't gotten the
> star up today, it would really have not been worth the effort to
> put it up this year but we barely made it.
> 
> 	Some of you might wonder why 7 degrees C or 46 F is not
> so good. A jacket keeps one warm enough especially when climbing
> and working, but the problem is the metal of the tower and one's
> hands. Even at that above-freezing temperature, your hands
> start to get numb pretty quickly against the cold metal. Gloves
> are fine but when you get to where the work needs to be done,
> you need to be able to feel everything like tools and parts and
> whether the safety clamps are in the right place. Much colder
> than that and it really gets kind of dangerous. I guess you
> could say that one really gets blind when your hands get numb. I
> got down just as they began to shut down.
> 
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec 16 09:54:10 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:54:10 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Mary

On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:32, Mary Stores wrote:

> ? Well, I work with a lot of sighted folks. In fact, I'm the only blind person in the office of about 12 staff members, and I find that (gasp!) I have to work with sighted folks.
> 
That's fair comment.

> ? One thing that we have to collaborate on is when we do our web site assessments. Sometimes it's necessary to take a screenshot of an open JAWS dialog so that people will get that ah-ha moment as to why following a particular guideline would be important. Trouble is, Brian finds it hard to tell me where I should focus to take that screenshot.
> 
It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.

Therefore, because the entire content is re-rendered, it's virtually impossible to determine where focus really is. The screen-reader takes control, grabbing focus and thereby changing what appears on the monitor in front of your face, so to speak.

> ? In listening to the JAWS 12 podcast, it seems that the folks at Freedom assume the only time that blind and sighted folks would work together is to resolve some sort of technical issue. So focus in menus is visible. But that is it, at least in my experience. I have no problem with the sighted people I work with taking control of the mouse, as long as they tell me first.
> 
Window-Eyes is the same and I gather from Gordon that MSAA is mostly to blame for that.

> ? I don't know about NVDA, if support would allow blind and sighted folks to work together better because a sighted person could see what the blind person is hearing. But I cn say that's one thing JAWS doesn't do very much.
> 
As I understand it, NVDA adopts the same approach as VoiceOver; as in it's object orientated rather than using an OSM. I only know this because I've read a bit about it and after the discussion, for want of a better word, which took place on list a while ago about NVDA, I did follow up on it.

I know that there are those who think I ask questions and then don't do anything. But I ask for a reason and I did visit the NVDA website and read the info. It looks like a totally different approach to Windows and Gordon tells me that when he is physically able to do so he plans to try NVDA and might even end up ditching Window-Eyes altogether.

So I do, believe it or not, find this type of discussion of great interest, and I am very much interested in NVDA now that I've read the basics. I think both Gillian and Gordon could benefit from NVDA/

Lynne


From james.austin at mac-access.net  Thu Dec 16 10:20:26 2010
From: james.austin at mac-access.net (James AUSTIN)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:20:26 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AB824E56-DBD9-4DB6-A0B5-4B636A13D033@mac-access.net>

Hi Lynne,
On 16 Dec 2010, at 09:54, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.

I've always wondered how this happens, is the change a visual one? I'm only asking because colleagues at work have been able to click on elements of the screen for me without difficulty. Does VoiceOver also change the way the screen looks?

However, perhaps the fact that JFW and perhaps other Screen Readers change the layout of the screen to make navigation and use easier, is one reason why some in the Assistive Technology industry and Visually Impaired/Blind people more generally seem to be very guarded against the idea of exploring new technologies such as touch screens etc. I'm curious about this, because as far as i know, VoiceOver for example does not change how the IPhone's screen looks. It therefore allows a user to  experience and explore the same screen in the same way as everyone else.

Take care 
James 
> Hello Mary
> 
> On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:32, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> ? Well, I work with a lot of sighted folks. In fact, I'm the only blind person in the office of about 12 staff members, and I find that (gasp!) I have to work with sighted folks.
>> 
> That's fair comment.
> 
>> ? One thing that we have to collaborate on is when we do our web site assessments. Sometimes it's necessary to take a screenshot of an open JAWS dialog so that people will get that ah-ha moment as to why following a particular guideline would be important. Trouble is, Brian finds it hard to tell me where I should focus to take that screenshot.
>> 
> It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.
> 
> Therefore, because the entire content is re-rendered, it's virtually impossible to determine where focus really is. The screen-reader takes control, grabbing focus and thereby changing what appears on the monitor in front of your face, so to speak.
> 
>> ? In listening to the JAWS 12 podcast, it seems that the folks at Freedom assume the only time that blind and sighted folks would work together is to resolve some sort of technical issue. So focus in menus is visible. But that is it, at least in my experience. I have no problem with the sighted people I work with taking control of the mouse, as long as they tell me first.
>> 
> Window-Eyes is the same and I gather from Gordon that MSAA is mostly to blame for that.
> 
>> ? I don't know about NVDA, if support would allow blind and sighted folks to work together better because a sighted person could see what the blind person is hearing. But I cn say that's one thing JAWS doesn't do very much.
>> 
> As I understand it, NVDA adopts the same approach as VoiceOver; as in it's object orientated rather than using an OSM. I only know this because I've read a bit about it and after the discussion, for want of a better word, which took place on list a while ago about NVDA, I did follow up on it.
> 
> I know that there are those who think I ask questions and then don't do anything. But I ask for a reason and I did visit the NVDA website and read the info. It looks like a totally different approach to Windows and Gordon tells me that when he is physically able to do so he plans to try NVDA and might even end up ditching Window-Eyes altogether.
> 
> So I do, believe it or not, find this type of discussion of great interest, and I am very much interested in NVDA now that I've read the basics. I think both Gillian and Gordon could benefit from NVDA/
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec 16 11:35:35 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:35:35 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <AB824E56-DBD9-4DB6-A0B5-4B636A13D033@mac-access.net>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<AB824E56-DBD9-4DB6-A0B5-4B636A13D033@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <19A48F0B-2E73-4C84-8959-637B41AD038E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello James

On 16 Dec 2010, at 10:20, James AUSTIN wrote:

> ? I've always wondered how this happens, is the change a visual one? I'm only asking because colleagues at work have been able to click on elements of the screen for me without difficulty. Does VoiceOver also change the way the screen looks?
> 
No, VoiceOver doesn't change anything which is my point. Yes; to a degree one can still mouse around when an MSAA page is rendered and click. But scrolling is totally different James. The page is totally re-rendered so that all elements appear in a vertical line rather than placed strategically on screen as they are normally.

For instance, you will often find websites which say things like "Click on the menu on the left-hand side of the page". But visually when there is an MSAA buffer, there is no such thing as the left-hand side of the page, because everything is vertically rendered. Does that make sense?

> ? However, perhaps the fact that JFW and perhaps other Screen Readers change the layout of the screen to make navigation and use easier, is one reason why some in the Assistive Technology industry and Visually Impaired/Blind people more generally seem to be very guarded against the idea of exploring new technologies such as touch screens etc. I'm curious about this, because as far as i know, VoiceOver for example does not change how the IPhone's screen looks. It therefore allows a user to  experience and explore the same screen in the same way as everyone else.
> 
That is exactly the point.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 18:53:25 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:53:25 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>

I use nvda as my secondary screen reader but it does not work with one of my broadcasting solutions which is quite annoying. lol! but I love nvda whenI get around to using it. I don't know if nvda is object oriented as I don't have anyone to look at the screen but it seems more stable.

Take care all.

S
On Dec 16, 2010, at 1:54 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Mary
> 
> On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:32, Mary Stores wrote:
> 
>> ? Well, I work with a lot of sighted folks. In fact, I'm the only blind person in the office of about 12 staff members, and I find that (gasp!) I have to work with sighted folks.
>> 
> That's fair comment.
> 
>> ? One thing that we have to collaborate on is when we do our web site assessments. Sometimes it's necessary to take a screenshot of an open JAWS dialog so that people will get that ah-ha moment as to why following a particular guideline would be important. Trouble is, Brian finds it hard to tell me where I should focus to take that screenshot.
>> 
> It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.
> 
> Therefore, because the entire content is re-rendered, it's virtually impossible to determine where focus really is. The screen-reader takes control, grabbing focus and thereby changing what appears on the monitor in front of your face, so to speak.
> 
>> ? In listening to the JAWS 12 podcast, it seems that the folks at Freedom assume the only time that blind and sighted folks would work together is to resolve some sort of technical issue. So focus in menus is visible. But that is it, at least in my experience. I have no problem with the sighted people I work with taking control of the mouse, as long as they tell me first.
>> 
> Window-Eyes is the same and I gather from Gordon that MSAA is mostly to blame for that.
> 
>> ? I don't know about NVDA, if support would allow blind and sighted folks to work together better because a sighted person could see what the blind person is hearing. But I cn say that's one thing JAWS doesn't do very much.
>> 
> As I understand it, NVDA adopts the same approach as VoiceOver; as in it's object orientated rather than using an OSM. I only know this because I've read a bit about it and after the discussion, for want of a better word, which took place on list a while ago about NVDA, I did follow up on it.
> 
> I know that there are those who think I ask questions and then don't do anything. But I ask for a reason and I did visit the NVDA website and read the info. It looks like a totally different approach to Windows and Gordon tells me that when he is physically able to do so he plans to try NVDA and might even end up ditching Window-Eyes altogether.
> 
> So I do, believe it or not, find this type of discussion of great interest, and I am very much interested in NVDA now that I've read the basics. I think both Gillian and Gordon could benefit from NVDA/
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 18:55:05 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:55:05 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <AB824E56-DBD9-4DB6-A0B5-4B636A13D033@mac-access.net>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<AB824E56-DBD9-4DB6-A0B5-4B636A13D033@mac-access.net>
Message-ID: <E7C3DD50-D74C-4025-81C3-428563960A86@gmail.com>

Yep. I've been able to use a touch screen successfully and one of my family members told me where a search field was in case my bf needed help but I told him thinking he was using voice over. Oops? but it is cool that I caninteract wiht my sighted pears when usinga touch screen device, I just wich other touch screens like at the bank could do the same thing, that is, talk!

S
On Dec 16, 2010, at 2:20 AM, James AUSTIN wrote:

> Hi Lynne,
> On 16 Dec 2010, at 09:54, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:
> 
> It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.
> 
> I've always wondered how this happens, is the change a visual one? I'm only asking because colleagues at work have been able to click on elements of the screen for me without difficulty. Does VoiceOver also change the way the screen looks?
> 
> However, perhaps the fact that JFW and perhaps other Screen Readers change the layout of the screen to make navigation and use easier, is one reason why some in the Assistive Technology industry and Visually Impaired/Blind people more generally seem to be very guarded against the idea of exploring new technologies such as touch screens etc. I'm curious about this, because as far as i know, VoiceOver for example does not change how the IPhone's screen looks. It therefore allows a user to  experience and explore the same screen in the same way as everyone else.
> 
> Take care 
> James 
>> Hello Mary
>> 
>> On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:32, Mary Stores wrote:
>> 
>>> ? Well, I work with a lot of sighted folks. In fact, I'm the only blind person in the office of about 12 staff members, and I find that (gasp!) I have to work with sighted folks.
>>> 
>> That's fair comment.
>> 
>>> ? One thing that we have to collaborate on is when we do our web site assessments. Sometimes it's necessary to take a screenshot of an open JAWS dialog so that people will get that ah-ha moment as to why following a particular guideline would be important. Trouble is, Brian finds it hard to tell me where I should focus to take that screenshot.
>>> 
>> It is difficult because your website looks *Nothing* like the actual website's real layout does when you're using a screen-reader.
>> 
>> Therefore, because the entire content is re-rendered, it's virtually impossible to determine where focus really is. The screen-reader takes control, grabbing focus and thereby changing what appears on the monitor in front of your face, so to speak.
>> 
>>> ? In listening to the JAWS 12 podcast, it seems that the folks at Freedom assume the only time that blind and sighted folks would work together is to resolve some sort of technical issue. So focus in menus is visible. But that is it, at least in my experience. I have no problem with the sighted people I work with taking control of the mouse, as long as they tell me first.
>>> 
>> Window-Eyes is the same and I gather from Gordon that MSAA is mostly to blame for that.
>> 
>>> ? I don't know about NVDA, if support would allow blind and sighted folks to work together better because a sighted person could see what the blind person is hearing. But I cn say that's one thing JAWS doesn't do very much.
>>> 
>> As I understand it, NVDA adopts the same approach as VoiceOver; as in it's object orientated rather than using an OSM. I only know this because I've read a bit about it and after the discussion, for want of a better word, which took place on list a while ago about NVDA, I did follow up on it.
>> 
>> I know that there are those who think I ask questions and then don't do anything. But I ask for a reason and I did visit the NVDA website and read the info. It looks like a totally different approach to Windows and Gordon tells me that when he is physically able to do so he plans to try NVDA and might even end up ditching Window-Eyes altogether.
>> 
>> So I do, believe it or not, find this type of discussion of great interest, and I am very much interested in NVDA now that I've read the basics. I think both Gillian and Gordon could benefit from NVDA/
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 18:57:22 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:57:22 -0800
Subject: Christmas Rush
In-Reply-To: <879A9B48-74AA-4036-8B46-FBCD3B911E44@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012151803.oBFI3XPU062194@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<879A9B48-74AA-4036-8B46-FBCD3B911E44@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EEDB5B41-BA30-4F9B-8196-3DE8CBAF24B5@gmail.com>

I have to find the recipe but I used to make ornaments that have a sent and that  could possibly be eaten but I didn't take it that far. lol.

I don't have any electrical expertise and I'm a ham? lol! but I always try and test before I give a presentation.

Take care.

S
On Dec 16, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> Again, I read, but have cut your post. Your ingenuity and patience do you credit. I think we would have given up.
> 
> We don't have the land, (nor the money) to make a radio tower possible or practical. But I know that Gordon would love it if we did and I am sure it would reignite his interest in the hobby.
> 
> Maybe when we reach retirement age and or I sell the business, maybe then we can give more thought to something like that.
> 
> My business is now worth 20 times what it was when I bought it, even in the current climate. We have established it as a profitable concern after a lot of hard work, and a lot of agreement by my ever patient husband to take a huge number of risks with his money by putting it into my project.
> 
> It could have folded; and then there would we be! Broke, bankrupt and devastated. But instead we are doing well and Christmas on the business side of things only brings my planned expansion closer, as I take official possession of the adjoining building on 1 January 2011. But I am getting off topic; and I don't want to get into trouble from our list owner or our assistant list controller. :)
> 
> I am pleased that your project worked out; and I am even more pleased that the safety conscious people do still exist in this world.
> 
> My sister-in-law made the mistake of not testing her Christmas lights before assembly a couple of years ago. She woke up in the middle of the night just before Christmas to the strong smell of burning rubber and plastic.
> 
> Rushing downstairs she discovered the Christmas tree in flames and the fire was in danger of spreading to a nearby leather couch. She, of course, pulled out the power cords and then threw the burning tree out of the front door. Exposed to the high oxygen content outside, it went up like a torch and had she left things just a few more short seconds, I am sure the house would have been burned down.
> 
> After that experience, she throws her lights away every year and buys new. She doesn't have your technical knowledge and just doesn't trust to luck any longer.
> 
> We personally won't bother with any form of decorations, except the over 200 cards we've already received. I hang them on strings and they make a pretty sight.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> On 15 Dec 2010, at 18:03, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> 	Every year at Christmas time, I put a star on my amateur
>> radio tower. The star was made by my wife's father so it is
>> special in many ways. He cut it out of heavy cardboard that is
>> weather-resistant and cut holes around the arms of the star for
>> the lights of a 35-light set. I usually mount it on the tower
>> right after Thanksgiving day and take it down just after
>> New year's day.
>> 
>> 	This year, it got very cold around November 26 and then
>> on this last weekend when it was somewhat warmer, I discovered
>> that the present light string which was several years old had
>> died. That's 35 little bulbs in series and one or more of the
>> connections in the sockets had opened up. Fortunately, I
>> discovered this before climbing the tower and then finding out
>> the problem. Several years ago, I was stupid enough not to test
>> it first.
>> 
>> 	Corrosion over almost a year of sitting idle will cause
>> contacts to open and finding them is a chore. It is also better
>> from a safety standpoint to not let that stuff get too old.
>> 
>> 	Anyway, we had a new set of lights so I removed the old
>> ones and installed the new lights. Thirty-four of them slid
>> right in to their holes
>> like they should but the material of the star, itself, is around
>> 20 or more years old and I think it has ever so slightly
>> deformed so that the slots for the wire and little round hole
>> for the actual socket and lamp have shrunk slightly and it is
>> hard to fit. The last bulb absolutely refused to go in to place
>> so I kept messing with it until I heard and felt one of the 5
>> points break right off.
>> 
>> 	After uttering a few choice un Christmas-like words, I
>> hit upon a plan to cut some wood to the shape of the broken arm,
>> drill a hole in it like the one  that was broken and cut a slot
>> for the wire.
>> 
>> 	This formed a backing for the broken piece and Beverly
>> and I glued it along with the broken part so you can't really
>> tell anything happened. The glue had to set for several hours
>> and a new cold front blew in from the North. No snow, just ugly
>> brown Oklahoma Winter.
>> 
>> Yesterday afternoon, the sky was clear and we reached 47
>> Fahrenheit or 8 degrees Celsius. I walked home as fast as I dare
>> and changed clothes as fast as I could. The Sun was almost down
>> and the temperature was going to drop soon.
>> 
>> 	The star is held on the tower by a large clamp that must
>> be tightened by a wrench. I have a canvas loop of strap that one
>> can stick one's arm through so the star rests on one's shoulder
>> as you climb.
>> 
>> 	I wear a safety belt, of course and that really slows
>> things down because you have to balance that star while leaning
>> down to move the safety belt clamps up, one at a time so
>> climbing is done by a foot or two at a time.
>> 
>> 	When I got to about the 35-foot or ten-meter level, I
>> clamped the holder for the star on to the leg of the tower and
>> pointed it due South where it is in view of the street past our
>> house. It was then a matter of tightening the clamp and plugging
>> in the cord which, of course, one never plugs in to power first.
>> After that, it was back down and go in and test it all out.
>> 
>> 	It works!
>> 
>> 	Today is another somewhat warm day. We may make 50 F or 10 C,
>> but the bottom falls out tonight.
>> 
>> 	Beverly and I had agreed that if we hadn't gotten the
>> star up today, it would really have not been worth the effort to
>> put it up this year but we barely made it.
>> 
>> 	Some of you might wonder why 7 degrees C or 46 F is not
>> so good. A jacket keeps one warm enough especially when climbing
>> and working, but the problem is the metal of the tower and one's
>> hands. Even at that above-freezing temperature, your hands
>> start to get numb pretty quickly against the cold metal. Gloves
>> are fine but when you get to where the work needs to be done,
>> you need to be able to feel everything like tools and parts and
>> whether the safety clamps are in the right place. Much colder
>> than that and it really gets kind of dangerous. I guess you
>> could say that one really gets blind when your hands get numb. I
>> got down just as they began to shut down.
>> 
>> Martin
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Thu Dec 16 19:55:47 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:55:47 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1B7D1198-3A5E-48B4-9EA8-F66A12C64BCC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 16 Dec 2010, at 18:53, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? I use nvda as my secondary screen reader but it does not work with one of my broadcasting solutions which is quite annoying. lol! but I love nvda whenI get around to using it. I don't know if nvda is object oriented as I don't have anyone to look at the screen but it seems more stable.
> 
Which package are you using? Gordon has licenses for SAM Broadcaster v4 and also OTS DJ AV Pro, as it is now named.

Lynne


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Dec 17 02:07:28 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 20:07:28 -0600
Subject: Developer says fbi fiddled with FreeBsd
Message-ID: <4B9792F4-B238-4C53-8058-B705CA3650BC@softcon.com>

Yes, this is the os that apple's osx is based on.


http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?doc_id=202019&f_src=itgazette

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Fri Dec 17 02:35:46 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 20:35:46 -0600
Subject: Developer says fbi fiddled with Open Bsd
In-Reply-To: <4B9792F4-B238-4C53-8058-B705CA3650BC@softcon.com>
References: <4B9792F4-B238-4C53-8058-B705CA3650BC@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <D3283355-3D42-4473-8A82-38DA2DACD917@softcon.com>

Sorry, it's Open Bsd not FreeBsd, and it's a little easier to read if  
you use this link instead.
http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=864&doc_id=202019&#msgs


On Dec 16, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Yes, this is the os that apple's osx is based on.
>
>
> http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?doc_id=202019&f_src=itgazette
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan,  
> virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's  
> dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat  
> group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 07:52:00 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:52:00 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <1B7D1198-3A5E-48B4-9EA8-F66A12C64BCC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>
	<1B7D1198-3A5E-48B4-9EA8-F66A12C64BCC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2F1BEC86-4967-4EA1-9A0F-41C55CD9E415@gmail.com>

I use spl studio AKA station playlist studio and edcast. and it sounds great. I'm gogn to do a test broadcast I hope tomorrow or monday and if i can get thigns working you will  or hopefully can see how it sounds. I won't be using nvda with it though. lol!

Take care.
On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 16 Dec 2010, at 18:53, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? I use nvda as my secondary screen reader but it does not work with one of my broadcasting solutions which is quite annoying. lol! but I love nvda whenI get around to using it. I don't know if nvda is object oriented as I don't have anyone to look at the screen but it seems more stable.
>> 
> Which package are you using? Gordon has licenses for SAM Broadcaster v4 and also OTS DJ AV Pro, as it is now named.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Dec 17 16:06:32 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:06:32 -0600
Subject: Christmas Rush 
Message-ID: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>

	She was lucky her nose worked in time. It does not
always happen so well. Plastics such as foam rubber and vinyl
which are all around us give off poisonous fumes when burning. One
such byproduct is cyanide which is the gas Hitler used to
commit mass murder as it works in seconds. It not only is
inhaled, but it can be absorbed right through the skin. Before
one dies, confusion deranges one's judgment so even if one is
still alive, it is difficult to make proper decisions. There
have been accounts of building fires in which rescuers could
hear people behind locked doors such as someone's bedroom or in
a hotel, but the toxic fumes had so addled the brain of the
victim that they could not understand the simple command to
"Open the door!"

	I am certain we will hear at least one sad news account
here of exactly the same situation you described except there
will be loss of life. Sadly, the news account usually ends with,

"Fire officials at the scene say that there was no working smoke
detector."

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> My sister-in-law made the mistake of not testing her Christmas lights 
> before assembly a couple of years ago. She woke up in the middle of the 
> night just before Christmas to the strong smell of burning rubber and 
> plastic.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 17 16:17:43 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:17:43 +0000
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <2F1BEC86-4967-4EA1-9A0F-41C55CD9E415@gmail.com>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>
	<1B7D1198-3A5E-48B4-9EA8-F66A12C64BCC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2F1BEC86-4967-4EA1-9A0F-41C55CD9E415@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14087C7E-6D87-42D2-A9AA-B9D6F8E58E1F@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 17 Dec 2010, at 07:52, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? I use spl studio AKA station playlist studio and edcast. and it sounds great. I'm gogn to do a test broadcast I hope tomorrow or monday and if i can get thigns working you will  or hopefully can see how it sounds. I won't be using nvda with it though. lol!
> 
Unless they have changed things in SPL, which is very very possible, the dynamics don't come close to those of OTS, according to Gordon. OTS Corporation used to be based in Brisbane Queensland, Australia but now it seems they've move to Hawaii where things are apparently easier for them.

The problem with OTS is the price. We were going to buy another license at one time but the horrendous price made us change our minds. Good thing, as it turned out, because following our last major Windows crash in October 2009, Gordon decided that enough was enough and took a hammer to the PC. Shortly afterwards we moved our servers away from Windows because of the pricing of the server solutions and then Gordon repeated the hammer exercise with that machine as well.

But I'm babbling; I gather that SPL no longer uses Winamp which can only be a good thing.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 17 17:34:42 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:34:42 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action; This Is Personal!
Message-ID: <46DB9391-F0C3-46AA-9B22-104673024DC3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello all

For some time now, Gordon and I have been trying to cancel our Virgin Media Business Essentials Broadband account. Every way we turned, we've been met with obstacle after obstacle.

The first argument was that, despite the fact that we are outside of the initial 12 month period for which we signed up, they say that the tariff is on a rolling contract, and when the first 12 months expires, a new 12 month period of contract comes into effect without prior notification or consent.

When, eventually, they agreed to let us cancel, they started to tell  us we would have to pay for the modem; have to pay for 12 months outstanding subscription which we did not owe. The company kept arguing and moving the goal posts each time I rang to try and resolve the issue.

Eventually, things came to a head this morning when I got a phone call from their customer loyalty department telling me that we had no option other than to stay with Virgin Media until next November. This was just darn right untrue and so I decided it was time to ring in a solicitor.

My brother Steve is actually a barrister; but he's perfectly entitled to represent me if he chooses, as he is doing now with a procedure we have just started against the NHS because of Gordon's appalling treatment.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, Steve contacted Virgin Media on our behalf and informed them that we intended to bring legal proceedings against them in order to discontinue our non-existent contract.

They reacted very quickly to that, and it wasn't long before a national representative of Virgin Media Business PLC was ob the phone to me asking me if I would be prepared to stay with them for 6 months instead of 12. I refused. Then they offered me 3 months at half price and 9 at full. I refused. Then they offered me 6 months at half price and 6 at full.

At this point I became somewhat annoyed; and passed the call over to my brother Steve. Steve informed them that they could expect a fax from him imminently informing them that, either they conform to consumer legislation or we would commence legal proceedings. That fax was duly sent; and within half an hour we had another phone call from them.

After prolonged discussions and refusals, they finally agreed to conform with their own terms and conditions. They said that we would have to serve a 90 day notice of termination period. Steve continued to haggle and, eventually, we got them down to 60 days.

Even that is pretty disgusting, but Steve advised me to accept because the alternative was probably a prolonged battle during which time we'd be paying them anyway. So we finally settled on a termination date of 10 February 2011.

They tried to move the goal posts again before the end of the call, but Steve stuck to him guns. They first refused to confirm the termination process but, after yet more threats, they finally sent us an email confirming the termination date.

So I guess the moral of this protracted story is don't ever deal with Virgin Media Business. We've had problems of a similar nature with their residential arm as well actually. And it's only due to Steve that my sister-in-law has finally got clear of their sending her bills, final demands and debt collection letters even though she no longer has an account with them. We personally had a little bit of trouble when we terminated our phone accounts with them. But nothing like this.

Gordon was so angry with them that he's taken their phone boxes off our wall, pulled the cables out of the house and even ripped them off the outside wall, cutting them at the point where they enter the box outside. The same will happen to Virgin Media's Internet terminal point when they kill the service in February.

So, if you're in the UK, my advice is stay away from Virgin Media, full stop. They are a bunch of crooks, whose employees are trained monkeys.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 17 18:15:26 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:15:26 +0000
Subject: Christmas Lights
In-Reply-To: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <891F8E75-B1B9-413F-AA1E-EB030908F94B@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 17 Dec 2010, at 16:06, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? She was lucky her nose worked in time. It does not always happen so well. Plastics such as foam rubber and vinyl which are all around us give off poisonous fumes when burning. One
> such byproduct is cyanide which is the gas Hitler used to
> commit mass murder as it works in seconds. It not only is
> inhaled, but it can be absorbed right through the skin. Before
> one dies, confusion deranges one's judgment so even if one is
> still alive, it is difficult to make proper decisions. There
> have been accounts of building fires in which rescuers could
> hear people behind locked doors such as someone's bedroom or in
> a hotel, but the toxic fumes had so addled the brain of the
> victim that they could not understand the simple command to
> "Open the door!"
> 
I didn't know this until just the other day; but we now have legislation over here governing the sale of Christmas lights. They're all fibre-optic now, so that if anything shorts out in the stream, the circuit just goes dead and that's the end of it. But there are still a lot of the older types kicking around in people's attics and they are being used year after year after years instead of replaced each Christmas.

I hope that nobody has to learn that lesson the hard way this year.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Fri Dec 17 18:28:43 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:28:43 -0600
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
Message-ID: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>

Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.
Some of them are just as bad, here.

	There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies
who had called Commcast cable television company to order a
bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.

The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and
proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed
to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health
issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
to make things right.

	The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked
to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait,
about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in
and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an
hour ago."

	The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a
day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers,
telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and
then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"

	She did have their attention and they soon had the
police there and she was arrested.

	The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always
been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.

	She received a suspended sentence and payed for the
damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for
an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.

	The couple bought service from a competing company and
Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other
spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now,
at least.

	You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach
and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward
large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is,
"We sell something useful and you are why we exist."

	Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
without doing anything at all."

Take care and enjoy the holidays.

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> For some time now, Gordon and I have been trying to cancel our Virgin 
> Media Business Essentials Broadband account. Every way we turned, we've 
> been met with obstacle after obstacle.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 17 21:08:03 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:08:03 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 17 Dec 2010, at 18:28, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.

We just didn't need all this stress. But we had no option. So again, Virgin Media in a no-no as far as we are concerned and we want others in the UK to be aware of it.

> ? Some of them are just as bad, here.

It is interesting that you mention Comcast because Comcast were the company Gordon joined back in 1995 when they first established their telephone network here. Then, Comcast was bought out by NTL, another American company. They introduced the Internet and the first UK fibre optic cable network.

NTL was in turn merged with Telewest, a rival company. Then, that organisation was swallowed by Virgin Media and it's really from that point that things began to go sour.

Virgin is such a big company that, it seems, the little customer doesn't matter to them. They treated us like dirt, just as they have a lot of other people locally. We recently migrated our telephone services back to British Telecom, because at least there we know what we get.

Our Internet services are being moved away from Virgin, finally. The main trunk we use for the servers is not on that network, but our secondary trunk is. We're having another line installed on Monday, (weather permitting). That line will take the place of the Virgin Media trunk and, ultimately, we will migrate our servers to that one as well. Then, we plan to move the current server trunk on to that network as well because that company offersd us better service and better terms than the current providers, Demon Internet; whose slogan is "Devilishly Fast Broadband". Joke! They don't even support the new ADSL2++ standards.

Our local exchange does not have that yet but the new company has arranged for us to be migrated to an exchange which does. They also charge just under 30% less than Demon Internet does, so it's time to switch.

> ? There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies who had called Commcast cable television company to order a bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.
> 
As we discovered, centralisation isn't always a good move.

> ? The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
> to make things right.
> 
That is astonishing!

> ? The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait, about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an hour ago."
> 
A sadly all too familiar story.

> The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers, telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"
> 
Looks like they did!

> ? She did have their attention and they soon had the police there and she was arrested.

You don't say!

> ? The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.
> 
I think I might have done the same. My own husband and father-in-law both have health issues and they too need telephone. Granted, we have mobile; but that's not the point.

Over here, there is legislation whereby the telephone companies have a legal obligation where there is a disabled or elderly person in a household, to fix faults within 12 hours. A lot of people simply don't know about that law, but if you quote it to the phone companies and make them aware that you are aware, they jump.

> ? She received a suspended sentence and payed for the damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.
> 
Some good came out of the incident then.

> ? The couple bought service from a competing company and Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now, at least.
> 
I wish something similar would happen here. Not that I wish any ill towards anybody, naturally. But companies such as Virgin Media, our banks and other institutions are getting away with murder at the moment in the way they treat their customers. I won't go on about it here, but there is an issue which we were advised of this week which is causing us to totally re-evaluate how and where Gordon, dad and I do our banking.

> ? You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
> but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is, "We sell something useful and you are why we exist."
> 
Absolutely. They all seem to suck up to each other, but the small fry such as us; the domestic consumer; doesn't matter. I know that British Telecom has a large presence in the US, as they now own one of your largest telecommunications companies. They also have shares in Telstra in Australia, I believe, they have a steak in France Telecom and also in the German equivalent. So they too are growing into a very large multinational and it is worrying.

So far, they still seem to care about the UK residential service. But how long that lasts, that's anybody's guess.

They no longer handle the exchange side of things, for instance, and they have formed a new company, in partnership with Virgin Media, which is called "BT Open Reach". That's the company which now handles all installation of telephone and cable lines at business and residential premises in the United Kingdom. So I hope we don't see a repetition of the story you illustrated over here; although such an incident wouldn't surprise me in the least.

> ? Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
> without doing anything at all."
> 
Or maybe it's "how much money can we make by stamping on the little people?"

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 23:33:21 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:33:21 -0800
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal!
In-Reply-To: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <6CD4F1B2-9499-4FF8-A079-83D26C2AB7D1@gmail.com>

Yeah I had to deal with a cell phone company here and I had to yell and them and contact there hq to get anything done while there customer service was lying through there teeth about my phone. I was pissed!
On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.
> Some of them are just as bad, here.
> 
> 	There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies
> who had called Commcast cable television company to order a
> bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.
> 
> The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and
> proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed
> to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health
> issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
> to make things right.
> 
> 	The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked
> to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait,
> about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in
> and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an
> hour ago."
> 
> 	The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a
> day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers,
> telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and
> then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"
> 
> 	She did have their attention and they soon had the
> police there and she was arrested.
> 
> 	The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always
> been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.
> 
> 	She received a suspended sentence and payed for the
> damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for
> an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.
> 
> 	The couple bought service from a competing company and
> Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other
> spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now,
> at least.
> 
> 	You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach
> and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
> but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward
> large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is,
> "We sell something useful and you are why we exist."
> 
> 	Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
> without doing anything at all."
> 
> Take care and enjoy the holidays.
> 
> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
>> For some time now, Gordon and I have been trying to cancel our Virgin 
>> Media Business Essentials Broadband account. Every way we turned, we've 
>> been met with obstacle after obstacle.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 23:36:13 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:36:13 -0800
Subject: Christmas Rush and beeing alert
In-Reply-To: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <BD4986CE-E88C-4FEB-8AE7-D904AE60D60B@gmail.com>

Oh wow! Yeah amazing stuff. remember make sure your smoke detectors are working for the holidays!

Happy holidays and may that star on your radio tower look wonderful!
On Dec 17, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	She was lucky her nose worked in time. It does not
> always happen so well. Plastics such as foam rubber and vinyl
> which are all around us give off poisonous fumes when burning. One
> such byproduct is cyanide which is the gas Hitler used to
> commit mass murder as it works in seconds. It not only is
> inhaled, but it can be absorbed right through the skin. Before
> one dies, confusion deranges one's judgment so even if one is
> still alive, it is difficult to make proper decisions. There
> have been accounts of building fires in which rescuers could
> hear people behind locked doors such as someone's bedroom or in
> a hotel, but the toxic fumes had so addled the brain of the
> victim that they could not understand the simple command to
> "Open the door!"
> 
> 	I am certain we will hear at least one sad news account
> here of exactly the same situation you described except there
> will be loss of life. Sadly, the news account usually ends with,
> 
> "Fire officials at the scene say that there was no working smoke
> detector."
> 
> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
>> My sister-in-law made the mistake of not testing her Christmas lights 
>> before assembly a couple of years ago. She woke up in the middle of the 
>> night just before Christmas to the strong smell of burning rubber and 
>> plastic.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 23:37:26 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:37:26 -0800
Subject: Christmas Lights
In-Reply-To: <891F8E75-B1B9-413F-AA1E-EB030908F94B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012171606.oBHG6WwE083954@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<891F8E75-B1B9-413F-AA1E-EB030908F94B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <379C1F9B-38B7-4849-BE91-8DCABD1DEC2C@gmail.com>

Oh really? I didn't know that there were lights like that. I hope ours here in the states work that way as we string them everywhere inside and out.
On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 16:06, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> ? She was lucky her nose worked in time. It does not always happen so well. Plastics such as foam rubber and vinyl which are all around us give off poisonous fumes when burning. One
>> such byproduct is cyanide which is the gas Hitler used to
>> commit mass murder as it works in seconds. It not only is
>> inhaled, but it can be absorbed right through the skin. Before
>> one dies, confusion deranges one's judgment so even if one is
>> still alive, it is difficult to make proper decisions. There
>> have been accounts of building fires in which rescuers could
>> hear people behind locked doors such as someone's bedroom or in
>> a hotel, but the toxic fumes had so addled the brain of the
>> victim that they could not understand the simple command to
>> "Open the door!"
>> 
> I didn't know this until just the other day; but we now have legislation over here governing the sale of Christmas lights. They're all fibre-optic now, so that if anything shorts out in the stream, the circuit just goes dead and that's the end of it. But there are still a lot of the older types kicking around in people's attics and they are being used year after year after years instead of replaced each Christmas.
> 
> I hope that nobody has to learn that lesson the hard way this year.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From djden at thejazzden.org.uk  Fri Dec 17 23:42:00 2010
From: djden at thejazzden.org.uk (Dennis Freedman)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:42:00 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A3C47AAE-27DF-4BB1-9205-CB4BBA7FAC3A@thejazzden.org.uk>

Who are you now with, gordon and Lynnette? We have been having issues here too with Demon but they are just plodding along not taking much notice of us, despite the price they charge and the long time we've been with them.
All your comments on Virgin very interesting. Max (our son) has been with them for ages; he still finds their internet broadband gives best results for their locality but is thinking of cancelling landline and TV services because of their charges and better TV offerings by other providers such as Sky, especially in the Sports field. 


Regards

Dennis Freedman

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Dec 2010, at 21:08, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 18:28, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.
> 
> We just didn't need all this stress. But we had no option. So again, Virgin Media in a no-no as far as we are concerned and we want others in the UK to be aware of it.
> 
>> ? Some of them are just as bad, here.
> 
> It is interesting that you mention Comcast because Comcast were the company Gordon joined back in 1995 when they first established their telephone network here. Then, Comcast was bought out by NTL, another American company. They introduced the Internet and the first UK fibre optic cable network.
> 
> NTL was in turn merged with Telewest, a rival company. Then, that organisation was swallowed by Virgin Media and it's really from that point that things began to go sour.
> 
> Virgin is such a big company that, it seems, the little customer doesn't matter to them. They treated us like dirt, just as they have a lot of other people locally. We recently migrated our telephone services back to British Telecom, because at least there we know what we get.
> 
> Our Internet services are being moved away from Virgin, finally. The main trunk we use for the servers is not on that network, but our secondary trunk is. We're having another line installed on Monday, (weather permitting). That line will take the place of the Virgin Media trunk and, ultimately, we will migrate our servers to that one as well. Then, we plan to move the current server trunk on to that network as well because that company offersd us better service and better terms than the current providers, Demon Internet; whose slogan is "Devilishly Fast Broadband". Joke! They don't even support the new ADSL2++ standards.
> 
> Our local exchange does not have that yet but the new company has arranged for us to be migrated to an exchange which does. They also charge just under 30% less than Demon Internet does, so it's time to switch.
> 
>> ? There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies who had called Commcast cable television company to order a bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.
>> 
> As we discovered, centralisation isn't always a good move.
> 
>> ? The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
>> to make things right.
>> 
> That is astonishing!
> 
>> ? The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait, about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an hour ago."
>> 
> A sadly all too familiar story.
> 
>> The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers, telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"
>> 
> Looks like they did!
> 
>> ? She did have their attention and they soon had the police there and she was arrested.
> 
> You don't say!
> 
>> ? The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.
>> 
> I think I might have done the same. My own husband and father-in-law both have health issues and they too need telephone. Granted, we have mobile; but that's not the point.
> 
> Over here, there is legislation whereby the telephone companies have a legal obligation where there is a disabled or elderly person in a household, to fix faults within 12 hours. A lot of people simply don't know about that law, but if you quote it to the phone companies and make them aware that you are aware, they jump.
> 
>> ? She received a suspended sentence and payed for the damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.
>> 
> Some good came out of the incident then.
> 
>> ? The couple bought service from a competing company and Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now, at least.
>> 
> I wish something similar would happen here. Not that I wish any ill towards anybody, naturally. But companies such as Virgin Media, our banks and other institutions are getting away with murder at the moment in the way they treat their customers. I won't go on about it here, but there is an issue which we were advised of this week which is causing us to totally re-evaluate how and where Gordon, dad and I do our banking.
> 
>> ? You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
>> but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is, "We sell something useful and you are why we exist."
>> 
> Absolutely. They all seem to suck up to each other, but the small fry such as us; the domestic consumer; doesn't matter. I know that British Telecom has a large presence in the US, as they now own one of your largest telecommunications companies. They also have shares in Telstra in Australia, I believe, they have a steak in France Telecom and also in the German equivalent. So they too are growing into a very large multinational and it is worrying.
> 
> So far, they still seem to care about the UK residential service. But how long that lasts, that's anybody's guess.
> 
> They no longer handle the exchange side of things, for instance, and they have formed a new company, in partnership with Virgin Media, which is called "BT Open Reach". That's the company which now handles all installation of telephone and cable lines at business and residential premises in the United Kingdom. So I hope we don't see a repetition of the story you illustrated over here; although such an incident wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> 
>> ? Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
>> without doing anything at all."
>> 
> Or maybe it's "how much money can we make by stamping on the little people?"
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 17 23:50:32 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:50:32 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal!
In-Reply-To: <6CD4F1B2-9499-4FF8-A079-83D26C2AB7D1@gmail.com>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<6CD4F1B2-9499-4FF8-A079-83D26C2AB7D1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DE249320-BACC-475C-B0F4-4FDF476812B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 17 Dec 2010, at 23:33, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Yeah I had to deal with a cell phone company here and I had to yell and them and contact there hq to get anything done while there customer service was lying through there teeth about my phone. I was ******!

I'm glad you eventually got sorted. BTW, sorry to be a pain; but could you please temper your language on list. We have a couple of members whose children sometimes see there email and it would be appreciated I think.

Lynne


From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 01:06:56 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 01:06:56 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EFFED879-3F64-4A83-B5E7-C733B241458B@blueyonder.co.uk>

Lynne,

VirginMedia is in fact still NTL, they just bought Virgin Mobile and gave Richard Branson 11% of the company if NTL could use Virgin's name for a new combined company.  Mr Branson is not the boss though, and it is not the first time he has allowed other companies to lease his branding.  NTL had a poor name in customer service so wanted to rebrand themselves and also become a quad blade ISP.

It is a common mistake for people to assume that Virgin Media is owned by Richard Branson, and you would think he would because of this and being a major share holder would do his best to improve things at the company.  They do offer lightning broadband speeds in the UK and are soon about to trial 200mb broadband, but for some reasons they seem to offer better speed offerings to their domestic clients.

Hope you have more success with your new ISP.

Chris 
On 17 Dec 2010, at 21:08, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Martin
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 18:28, Martin McCormick wrote:
> 
>> Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.
> 
> We just didn't need all this stress. But we had no option. So again, Virgin Media in a no-no as far as we are concerned and we want others in the UK to be aware of it.
> 
>> ? Some of them are just as bad, here.
> 
> It is interesting that you mention Comcast because Comcast were the company Gordon joined back in 1995 when they first established their telephone network here. Then, Comcast was bought out by NTL, another American company. They introduced the Internet and the first UK fibre optic cable network.
> 
> NTL was in turn merged with Telewest, a rival company. Then, that organisation was swallowed by Virgin Media and it's really from that point that things began to go sour.
> 
> Virgin is such a big company that, it seems, the little customer doesn't matter to them. They treated us like dirt, just as they have a lot of other people locally. We recently migrated our telephone services back to British Telecom, because at least there we know what we get.
> 
> Our Internet services are being moved away from Virgin, finally. The main trunk we use for the servers is not on that network, but our secondary trunk is. We're having another line installed on Monday, (weather permitting). That line will take the place of the Virgin Media trunk and, ultimately, we will migrate our servers to that one as well. Then, we plan to move the current server trunk on to that network as well because that company offersd us better service and better terms than the current providers, Demon Internet; whose slogan is "Devilishly Fast Broadband". Joke! They don't even support the new ADSL2++ standards.
> 
> Our local exchange does not have that yet but the new company has arranged for us to be migrated to an exchange which does. They also charge just under 30% less than Demon Internet does, so it's time to switch.
> 
>> ? There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies who had called Commcast cable television company to order a bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.
>> 
> As we discovered, centralisation isn't always a good move.
> 
>> ? The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
>> to make things right.
>> 
> That is astonishing!
> 
>> ? The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait, about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an hour ago."
>> 
> A sadly all too familiar story.
> 
>> The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers, telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"
>> 
> Looks like they did!
> 
>> ? She did have their attention and they soon had the police there and she was arrested.
> 
> You don't say!
> 
>> ? The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.
>> 
> I think I might have done the same. My own husband and father-in-law both have health issues and they too need telephone. Granted, we have mobile; but that's not the point.
> 
> Over here, there is legislation whereby the telephone companies have a legal obligation where there is a disabled or elderly person in a household, to fix faults within 12 hours. A lot of people simply don't know about that law, but if you quote it to the phone companies and make them aware that you are aware, they jump.
> 
>> ? She received a suspended sentence and payed for the damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.
>> 
> Some good came out of the incident then.
> 
>> ? The couple bought service from a competing company and Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now, at least.
>> 
> I wish something similar would happen here. Not that I wish any ill towards anybody, naturally. But companies such as Virgin Media, our banks and other institutions are getting away with murder at the moment in the way they treat their customers. I won't go on about it here, but there is an issue which we were advised of this week which is causing us to totally re-evaluate how and where Gordon, dad and I do our banking.
> 
>> ? You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
>> but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is, "We sell something useful and you are why we exist."
>> 
> Absolutely. They all seem to suck up to each other, but the small fry such as us; the domestic consumer; doesn't matter. I know that British Telecom has a large presence in the US, as they now own one of your largest telecommunications companies. They also have shares in Telstra in Australia, I believe, they have a steak in France Telecom and also in the German equivalent. So they too are growing into a very large multinational and it is worrying.
> 
> So far, they still seem to care about the UK residential service. But how long that lasts, that's anybody's guess.
> 
> They no longer handle the exchange side of things, for instance, and they have formed a new company, in partnership with Virgin Media, which is called "BT Open Reach". That's the company which now handles all installation of telephone and cable lines at business and residential premises in the United Kingdom. So I hope we don't see a repetition of the story you illustrated over here; although such an incident wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> 
>> ? Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
>> without doing anything at all."
>> 
> Or maybe it's "how much money can we make by stamping on the little people?"
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 01:15:56 2010
From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 01:15:56 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <A3C47AAE-27DF-4BB1-9205-CB4BBA7FAC3A@thejazzden.org.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A3C47AAE-27DF-4BB1-9205-CB4BBA7FAC3A@thejazzden.org.uk>
Message-ID: <5EDE8666-6BB8-4322-ABCD-CBEF0D8D97CD@blueyonder.co.uk>

Oh my god, Demon, now there is a blast from the past.  They were my first ISP 17 years ago.  They offered dial up for a tenner a month.  But their servers were always falling over, and sometimes nothing came down the wire.  It was like turning the gas on and it only trickling out.

I upset Virgin, as I told them I did not want their TV anymore (hardly watch live TV these days) and asked to reduce my phone too as was thinking of going with Vonage as you can transfer your Virgin telephone number to them and it is only ?6 per month and you can stay on the phone for up to 4 hours.  I got sick of going over the hour with Virgin then being charged for the entire call.

But then I discovered I am not out of my 12 month contract with Virgin yet.  Yup apparently I took out a new 12 month contract in July when Virgin gave me a free router if I put my broadband up a tier for 6 months.  At the time I asked what happens after 6 months? The guy on the phone told me you can drop it back down a tier no problem.  Well it turns out he was lying and no I can't.

Before Telewest merged with NTL, their customer service was excellent and their phone was unlimited too.  I will be switching to a new media supplier next summer.

Chris  
On 17 Dec 2010, at 23:42, Dennis Freedman wrote:

> Who are you now with, gordon and Lynnette? We have been having issues here too with Demon but they are just plodding along not taking much notice of us, despite the price they charge and the long time we've been with them.
> All your comments on Virgin very interesting. Max (our son) has been with them for ages; he still finds their internet broadband gives best results for their locality but is thinking of cancelling landline and TV services because of their charges and better TV offerings by other providers such as Sky, especially in the Sports field. 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Dennis Freedman
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 21:08, "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" <lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Hello Martin
>> 
>> On 17 Dec 2010, at 18:28, Martin McCormick wrote:
>> 
>>> Bravo!! It's a shame but that's what it takes some times.
>> 
>> We just didn't need all this stress. But we had no option. So again, Virgin Media in a no-no as far as we are concerned and we want others in the UK to be aware of it.
>> 
>>> ? Some of them are just as bad, here.
>> 
>> It is interesting that you mention Comcast because Comcast were the company Gordon joined back in 1995 when they first established their telephone network here. Then, Comcast was bought out by NTL, another American company. They introduced the Internet and the first UK fibre optic cable network.
>> 
>> NTL was in turn merged with Telewest, a rival company. Then, that organisation was swallowed by Virgin Media and it's really from that point that things began to go sour.
>> 
>> Virgin is such a big company that, it seems, the little customer doesn't matter to them. They treated us like dirt, just as they have a lot of other people locally. We recently migrated our telephone services back to British Telecom, because at least there we know what we get.
>> 
>> Our Internet services are being moved away from Virgin, finally. The main trunk we use for the servers is not on that network, but our secondary trunk is. We're having another line installed on Monday, (weather permitting). That line will take the place of the Virgin Media trunk and, ultimately, we will migrate our servers to that one as well. Then, we plan to move the current server trunk on to that network as well because that company offersd us better service and better terms than the current providers, Demon Internet; whose slogan is "Devilishly Fast Broadband". Joke! They don't even support the new ADSL2++ standards.
>> 
>> Our local exchange does not have that yet but the new company has arranged for us to be migrated to an exchange which does. They also charge just under 30% less than Demon Internet does, so it's time to switch.
>> 
>>> ? There is the now famous story of a lady in her seventies who had called Commcast cable television company to order a bundle of "bargain" services such as TV, Broadband and telephone.
>>> 
>> As we discovered, centralisation isn't always a good move.
>> 
>>> ? The Commcast technician came to her and her husband's house and proceeded to disconnect their old land-line service but failed to get their telephone working. The woman's husband had health issues and they needed a phone continuously but Commcast refused
>>> to make things right.
>>> 
>> That is astonishing!
>> 
>>> ? The couple went to the local Commcast office and asked to see a manager. They were told to wait and wait and wait, about two hours worth of waiting. At that point, they went in and asked again at which point they were told that "He left an hour ago."
>>> 
>> A sadly all too familiar story.
>> 
>>> The woman absolutely snapped, went home and came back a day or so later with a hammer and began bashing computers, telephones, keyboards, etc as fast and as hard as she could and then shouted, "Are you listening to me now!?"
>>> 
>> Looks like they did!
>> 
>>> ? She did have their attention and they soon had the police there and she was arrested.
>> 
>> You don't say!
>> 
>>> ? The woman was a retired Air Force nurse and had always been a responsible pillar of the community but she just lost it.
>>> 
>> I think I might have done the same. My own husband and father-in-law both have health issues and they too need telephone. Granted, we have mobile; but that's not the point.
>> 
>> Over here, there is legislation whereby the telephone companies have a legal obligation where there is a disabled or elderly person in a household, to fix faults within 12 hours. A lot of people simply don't know about that law, but if you quote it to the phone companies and make them aware that you are aware, they jump.
>> 
>>> ? She received a suspended sentence and payed for the damage she caused. That hammer, by the way, was sold on Ebay for an incredible amount of money which was donated to charity.
>>> 
>> Some good came out of the incident then.
>> 
>>> ? The couple bought service from a competing company and Commcast, stung by the publicity of that account and a few other spectacular lapses, has apparently cleaned up their act for now, at least.
>>> 
>> I wish something similar would happen here. Not that I wish any ill towards anybody, naturally. But companies such as Virgin Media, our banks and other institutions are getting away with murder at the moment in the way they treat their customers. I won't go on about it here, but there is an issue which we were advised of this week which is causing us to totally re-evaluate how and where Gordon, dad and I do our banking.
>> 
>>> ? You seem to have taken a much more responsible approach and nobody advocates smashing others' property with a hammer,
>>> but deep in our hearts, we all have had that feeling toward large institutions that seem to have forgotten that the idea is, "We sell something useful and you are why we exist."
>>> 
>> Absolutely. They all seem to suck up to each other, but the small fry such as us; the domestic consumer; doesn't matter. I know that British Telecom has a large presence in the US, as they now own one of your largest telecommunications companies. They also have shares in Telstra in Australia, I believe, they have a steak in France Telecom and also in the German equivalent. So they too are growing into a very large multinational and it is worrying.
>> 
>> So far, they still seem to care about the UK residential service. But how long that lasts, that's anybody's guess.
>> 
>> They no longer handle the exchange side of things, for instance, and they have formed a new company, in partnership with Virgin Media, which is called "BT Open Reach". That's the company which now handles all installation of telephone and cable lines at business and residential premises in the United Kingdom. So I hope we don't see a repetition of the story you illustrated over here; although such an incident wouldn't surprise me in the least.
>> 
>>> ? Today, it is more like, "Look how much money we can make
>>> without doing anything at all."
>>> 
>> Or maybe it's "how much money can we make by stamping on the little people?"
>> 
>> Lynne
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>> 
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 



From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sat Dec 18 02:03:14 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:03:14 -0600
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal!
In-Reply-To: <46DB9391-F0C3-46AA-9B22-104673024DC3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <46DB9391-F0C3-46AA-9B22-104673024DC3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4FE0B963-3226-4A19-BFE4-D9501575ED51@softcon.com>

I've had similar experiences with verizon, which is why I will never  
use that company again.  Even though when I (briefly) had my t1 at the  
Delaware house, the verizon pricing was about 50 bucks cheaper than  
the one I used, I stuck to my policy of *never* using verizon, and I'm  
sure as a result, megapath was very happy, even though we never did  
get our first month free (as stipulated by their own contract if  
service was not installed within 30 days, which in our case, it most  
definitely wasn't, then they yelled at me, claiming it was my fault  
for not filling out the rebate forms, though when I went to the  
website they gave me to fill them out, it was mid january, and every  
single rebate had expired on dec 31st.  Needless to say, I'm never  
using megapath ever again either.  At this rate, I'm going to run out  
of internet providers. :)


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 10:00:50 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:00:50 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <EFFED879-3F64-4A83-B5E7-C733B241458B@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<EFFED879-3F64-4A83-B5E7-C733B241458B@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5AD8E30D-C9F6-4D63-A73C-D03598C28C77@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 18 Dec 2010, at 01:06, Chris Moore wrote:

> ? VirginMedia is in fact still NTL, they just bought Virgin Mobile and gave Richard Branson 11% of the company if NTL could use Virgin's name for a new combined company.  Mr Branson is not the boss though, and it is not the first time he has allowed other companies to lease his branding.  NTL had a poor name in customer service so wanted to rebrand themselves and also become a quad blade ISP.
> 
OK, be that as it may. Their name is still mud as far as we are concerned.

> ? It is a common mistake for people to assume that Virgin Media is owned by Richard Branson, and you would think he would because of this and being a major share holder would do his best to improve things at the company.  They do offer lightning broadband speeds in the UK and are soon about to trial 200mb broadband, but for some reasons they seem to offer better speed offerings to their domestic clients.
> 
Then the mistake is his, and theirs. It won't be long before Virgin Media is re-branded I guess because their poor customer services have followed them across the branded divide.

> ? Hope you have more success with your new ISP.
> 
I'm sure we shall. The VM business broadband is still on 20MB maximum, as I understand it Chris. Our "service", for want of a better term, is 10MB and costs us 41 quid a month. An outrage.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 11:13:53 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:13:53 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal! 
In-Reply-To: <5EDE8666-6BB8-4322-ABCD-CBEF0D8D97CD@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<BDB40954-0567-452C-A2F8-B2BDF95A1B8C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<A3C47AAE-27DF-4BB1-9205-CB4BBA7FAC3A@thejazzden.org.uk>
	<5EDE8666-6BB8-4322-ABCD-CBEF0D8D97CD@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <889D4289-0021-4FA1-8078-C07D257F9B80@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Chris

On 18 Dec 2010, at 01:15, Chris Moore wrote:

> ? Oh my god, Demon, now there is a blast from the past.  They were my first ISP 17 years ago.  They offered dial up for a tenner a month.  But their servers were always falling over, and sometimes nothing came down the wire.  It was like turning the gas on and it only trickling out.
> 
That's long before my time. 17 Years ago, I was in Africa, and I assure you there were no Internet things there!

But we find that their broadband is mostly very solid, although a bit on the costly side. That's why we're migrating to a different and new provider. If they turn out as good as we hope we will be dumping Demon as well.

> ? I upset Virgin, as I told them I did not want their TV anymore (hardly watch live TV these days) and asked to reduce my phone too as was thinking of going with Vonage as you can transfer your Virgin telephone number to them and it is only ?6 per month and you can stay on the phone for up to 4 hours.  I got sick of going over the hour with Virgin then being charged for the entire call.
> 
WE are with BT now as they're all cariiers of BT anyway but we kept our Virgin Media phone number. The problem is our local exchange is not ADSL 2++ enabled yet so we were lucky to find a provider who can put you on a different exchange if there is one close enough that has the facilities.

> ? But then I discovered I am not out of my 12 month contract with Virgin yet.  Yup apparently I took out a new 12 month contract in July when Virgin gave me a free router if I put my broadband up a tier for 6 months.  At the time I asked what happens after 6 months? The guy on the phone told me you can drop it back down a tier no problem.  Well it turns out he was lying and no I can't.
> 
yes; and be aware that they now auto-renew that ?12 month contract when it expires. But don't tell you so.

Lynne


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 12:14:17 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:14:17 +0000
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal!
In-Reply-To: <4FE0B963-3226-4A19-BFE4-D9501575ED51@softcon.com>
References: <46DB9391-F0C3-46AA-9B22-104673024DC3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<4FE0B963-3226-4A19-BFE4-D9501575ED51@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <4FD94AA1-8431-4613-8659-E5153EA64D4C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

It's sad that the overall standards of business have dropped to such an alarmingly poor level. This is true not just in the field of technology; but across the board. Standards have dropped through the floor.

Lynne

On 18 Dec 2010, at 02:03, Travis Siegel wrote:

> I've had similar experiences with verizon, which is why I will never use that company again.  Even though when I (briefly) had my t1 at the Delaware house, the verizon pricing was about 50 bucks cheaper than the one I used, I stuck to my policy of *never* using verizon, and I'm sure as a result, megapath was very happy, even though we never did get our first month free (as stipulated by their own contract if service was not installed within 30 days, which in our case, it most definitely wasn't, then they yelled at me, claiming it was my fault for not filling out the rebate forms, though when I went to the website they gave me to fill them out, it was mid january, and every single rebate had expired on dec 31st.  Needless to say, I'm never using megapath ever again either.  At this rate, I'm going to run out of internet providers. :)


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Sat Dec 18 14:35:37 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 08:35:37 -0600
Subject: Christmas Lights 
Message-ID: <201012181435.oBIEZble094706@x.it.okstate.edu>

I normally don't like to quote multiple levels of comment
because it gets confusing, but this helps understand the context
better this time.

Sarah Alawami writes:
> Oh really? I didn't know that there were lights like that. I hope ours 
> here in the states work that way as we string them everywhere inside and 
> out.
On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> > I didn't know this until just the other day; but we now have 
> legislation over here governing the sale of Christmas lights. They're all 
> fibre-optic now, so that if anything shorts out in the stream, the 
> circuit just goes dead and that's the end of it. But there are still a 
> lot of the older types kicking around in people's attics and they are 
> being used year after year after years instead of replaced each Christmas.

	Most Christmas lights in circulation right now
definitely do not work that way so treat them with the respect
they deserve.

	I remember a few years ago reading an article about the
100TH anniversary of the sale by the Thomas Edison Company of
the very first electric Christmas lights. I think it was 2003
and 1903 respectively.

	They were probably rather scary by today's standards
although they were sold as safer than candles which is all
relative, i guess.

	The lights were wired with heavy solid wire so they were
probably a real pain to hang and I believe the bulbs were all
clear and covered by colored glass shrouds. The scary part is
that they reportedly ran at temperatures of about 350 degrees
Fahrenheit which is about 177 degrees Celsius. This is very
close to the kindling point of paper and can be above the
kindling point of dry wood such as any part of the building that
might come in to accidental contact with a hot bulb or maybe a
dry Christmas tree, by chance.

	Today's lights, except for the new LED types come in
several common configurations. I promise to be brief but here is
how they work and what can happen:

	The good strings have tiny fuses slightly larger than
match heads right in the power plug which will blow under a dead
short or the load of too many strings together so that is good.

	Those tiny bulbs you see in strings of 35 to 100 light
sets are wired in series which means that when plugged in, the
current flows from the mains to the first bulb in the set, then
to the second, third and successively through all 35 or so bulbs
where the last one is connected to the other side of the mains.
If just one bulb is missing or burned out, the whole string goes
dark as the circuit is broken. All the little bulbs draw the
same amount of current so that the voltage divides evenly
amongst each bulb which means that each bulb has, in the case of
35-light strings in the United States, 120 volts divided by 35
or about 3.5 volts across each lamp.

	That is a very low voltage, about the same as found in a
flashlight or, as you say in England, an electric torch.

	In the UK, you have 240 volts at your common wall socket
and I don't know what the series Christmas lights there are
like, but they could use 6-volt bulbs and everything else could
be the same.

	Here is what can happen and why you should be careful.

	While the voltage across each bulb is low, the wires in
the string to connect to the mains. Any nick or break in the
insulation can and will expose you to possibly lethal voltages
if you touch it and happen to be standing or leaning against
something that is Earth or Grounded such as a water pipe or a
concrete floor.

	If you remove a bulb from one of the sockets and the
rest of the string goes out, there is full mains voltage across
that empty socket.

	Some of the series string bulbs have a nice feature
built in in which if the bulb burns out, the broken wires fall
together and shunt or bypass that one bad lamp. The lamp will go
out but the rest of the string continues to glow. When you
replace the bad bulb, the rest of the string will go dark when
you pull the bad bulb out but there is still mains voltage at
the socket so it is best to disconnect the string while
changing bulbs.

	The 100-light sets are just 3 35-light sets wired in
parallel so removing one lamp will kill 1/3 of them all.

	Another common style of Christmas light sets is an
8-light parallel set. These have much larger bulbs, about the
size of the end of a thumb. Each socket has 4 wires leading from
it and one bulb can burn out without loosing the rest of the
string.

	These lights have full mains voltage across each bulb.

	Finally, and I confess I have never actually seen one of
these, there are Christmas light sets that contain a step-down
power transformer. These are by far the safest but they are also
the most expensive. The bulbs, again, are in parallel but they
are low-voltage lamps and contact with live parts of the string
would not pose a shock hazard to most people at all.

	Sorry for the length of this, but if it helps somebody
have a safer holiday, it is useful.

	Also remember that if a light string doesn't state on
the package that it is for outdoor use, it probably should not
be ever used out of doors because it may let water in to the
sockets or the plastic insulation may not stand up under
Sunlight.

Martin

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 20:05:45 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:05:45 -0800
Subject: I am curious
In-Reply-To: <14087C7E-6D87-42D2-A9AA-B9D6F8E58E1F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012141529.oBEFTXhs049017@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<E47181B3-872F-4EE9-9BC2-EF2E9FFBF31B@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<E9610047-FD86-458F-B48D-B1104A9685CF@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<BD4D4CF7-6522-444F-929A-61EF3216B259@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<20101215133236.gw1ulxeuoskoos8w@webmail.iu.edu>
	<5059EFD4-09C4-42B6-AEB5-510BAD66DFF0@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<F0E2E430-029B-48CD-B9E0-F1471D0638D0@gmail.com>
	<1B7D1198-3A5E-48B4-9EA8-F66A12C64BCC@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<2F1BEC86-4967-4EA1-9A0F-41C55CD9E415@gmail.com>
	<14087C7E-6D87-42D2-A9AA-B9D6F8E58E1F@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7B0C564D-FBE7-42ED-B3EC-11352676ACFE@gmail.com>

No it doesn't. but I still love it. the archive is up btw but if you want that link you will have to catch me first! lol!

Take care all.
On Dec 17, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 07:52, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? I use spl studio AKA station playlist studio and edcast. and it sounds great. I'm gogn to do a test broadcast I hope tomorrow or monday and if i can get thigns working you will  or hopefully can see how it sounds. I won't be using nvda with it though. lol!
>> 
> Unless they have changed things in SPL, which is very very possible, the dynamics don't come close to those of OTS, according to Gordon. OTS Corporation used to be based in Brisbane Queensland, Australia but now it seems they've move to Hawaii where things are apparently easier for them.
> 
> The problem with OTS is the price. We were going to buy another license at one time but the horrendous price made us change our minds. Good thing, as it turned out, because following our last major Windows crash in October 2009, Gordon decided that enough was enough and took a hammer to the PC. Shortly afterwards we moved our servers away from Windows because of the pricing of the server solutions and then Gordon repeated the hammer exercise with that machine as well.
> 
> But I'm babbling; I gather that SPL no longer uses Winamp which can only be a good thing.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 20:01:51 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:01:51 -0800
Subject: UK Internet Provider Narrowly Avoids Legal Action;
	This Is Personal!
In-Reply-To: <DE249320-BACC-475C-B0F4-4FDF476812B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<6CD4F1B2-9499-4FF8-A079-83D26C2AB7D1@gmail.com>
	<DE249320-BACC-475C-B0F4-4FDF476812B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B3A76648-E0ED-43D6-BADC-71DE7D9520C2@gmail.com>

Oops! Sorry about that. Yeah here in the states kids even 3 year olds say stuff like that. I was not thinking. Ok I'll be quiet now.
On Dec 17, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote:

> Hello Sarah
> 
> On 17 Dec 2010, at 23:33, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> ? Yeah I had to deal with a cell phone company here and I had to yell and them and contact there hq to get anything done while there customer service was lying through there teeth about my phone. I was ******!
> 
> I'm glad you eventually got sorted. BTW, sorry to be a pain; but could you please temper your language on list. We have a couple of members whose children sometimes see there email and it would be appreciated I think.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 20:12:57 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:12:57 -0800
Subject: Europe commits to open standards and open data
Message-ID: <83AB8598-2C65-46BB-AF15-CCEC62789D52@gmail.com>

Is this a good idea? will europe's internet technology grow or flop? read more:   http://bit.ly/fjKG19
Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 20:17:33 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 20:17:33 +0000
Subject: Language!
In-Reply-To: <B3A76648-E0ED-43D6-BADC-71DE7D9520C2@gmail.com>
References: <201012171828.oBHIShif085851@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<6CD4F1B2-9499-4FF8-A079-83D26C2AB7D1@gmail.com>
	<DE249320-BACC-475C-B0F4-4FDF476812B3@tft-bbs.co.uk>
	<B3A76648-E0ED-43D6-BADC-71DE7D9520C2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC29E245-3CB1-4C1F-B52D-FE71DDF57BB9@tft-bbs.co.uk>

hello Sarah

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:01, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> ? Oops! Sorry about that. Yeah here in the states kids even 3 year olds say stuff like that. I was not thinking. Ok I'll be quiet now.

I guess that just shows that not all parents bring their kids up properly. But that's for another group.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sat Dec 18 20:22:16 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 20:22:16 +0000
Subject: Europe commits to open standards and open data
In-Reply-To: <83AB8598-2C65-46BB-AF15-CCEC62789D52@gmail.com>
References: <83AB8598-2C65-46BB-AF15-CCEC62789D52@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A830570B-F7D4-4D4B-8052-E08EFC0FD1CB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Sarah

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:12, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Is this a good idea? will europe's internet technology grow or flop? read more:   

it isn't going to make a jot of difference to any technology in our lifetime I suspect. It's just another waste of money, and if it ever happens, which I seriously doubt, it won't be for decades.

Lynne


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 22:56:51 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:56:51 -0800
Subject: Approximately 62 days until there are no IpV4 addresses left.
Message-ID: <9753CD4F-AE84-4730-85FD-7AFEA6C68081@gmail.com>

I would not worry about this as most routers are already releasing ipv6 addresses bur read more if you can. the website looks a bit odd.   http://bit.ly/fhqCxc
Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 00:39:24 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 16:39:24 -0800
Subject: Time to switch to AMD? New intel chips will have remote kill switch
	(through 3G!
Message-ID: <42410D67-3B7D-4E4D-934F-47738B11FFF3@gmail.com>

I can see this beeing put in the wrong hands will cause a disaster. Read more:)  http://bit.ly/ecUBcu
Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From campedlho33 at eksharadsel.com  Mon Apr 12 17:28:38 2010
From: campedlho33 at eksharadsel.com (Patsy Rodriquez)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:28:38 -0000
Subject: Seem rich even if you have a nickle in your wallet. Want to save your
	money but look gorgeous at the same time?
Message-ID: <000d01cada5a$9af9e2a0$6400a8c0@campedlho33>

Everyday low prices for branded handbags  get your Cartiers, Diors and Rolexes at affordable price
&nbsp;
Come at the moment
http://punchguide.ru

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Apr 13 01:29:12 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 00:29:12 -0000
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
Message-ID: <4BC3BACF.3020907@internode.on.net>

Hi!

This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. 
parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.

Upon reading this document I found some of the points both telling and 
valid - even tough I'm not a resident of the U.K. I can see in some 
cases where the author of this submission is coming from in his 
observations-, the upshot of all this is that your switch-over date from 
analogue to digital DAB broadcasting in 2015 looks highly unlikely.

Now its not often that we display or use common sense here in Australia 
but we've certainly done that it seems with our digital radio system, 
we're using the more advanced and higher quality DAB+ system, the 
original DAB system used by the U.K. is 20 years old but what really did 
surprise me was how imcompatible it was with today's digital standards, 
read on.

1. Existing FM radio coverage is robust with close to universal coverage
? 50 years' development and investment has resulted in FM providing 
robust radio
coverage to 98.5% of the UK population
2. No alternative usage is proposed for FM or AM radio spectrum
? Ofcom has proposed no alternate purpose for vacated spectrum
? There is no proposed spectrum auction to benefit the Treasury
3. FM/AM radio already provides substantial consumer choice
? Unlike analogue television, consumers are already offered a wide 
choice of content
on analogue radio
? 14 analogue radio stations are available to the average UK consumer 
(29 stations
in London), according to Ofcom research
4. FM is a cheaper transmission system for small, local radio stations
? FM is a cheaper, more efficient broadcast technology for small, local 
radio stations
than DAB
? A single FM transmitter can serve a coverage area of 10 to 30 miles radius
5. Consumers are very satisfied with their existing choice of radio
? 91% of UK consumers are satisfied with the choice of radio stations in 
their area,
according to Ofcom research
? 69% of UK consumers only listen to one or two different radio stations 
in an average
week, according to Ofcom research
6. Sales of radio receivers are in overall decline in the UK
? Consumer sales of traditional radio receivers are in long-term decline 
in the UK,
according to GfK research
? Consumers are increasingly purchasing integrated media devices (mp3 
players, mobile
phones, SatNav) that include radio reception
7. 'FM' is the global standard for radio in mobile devices
? FM radio is the standard broadcast receiver in the global mobile phone 
market
? Not one mobile phone is on sale in the UK that incorporates DAB radio
8. The large volume of analogue radio receivers in UK households will 
not be quickly
replaced
? Most households have one analogue television to replace, whereas the 
average household
has more than 5 analogue radios
? The natural replacement cycle for a radio receiver is more than ten years
9. Lack of consumer awareness of DAB radio
? Ofcom said the results of its market research "highlights the 
continued lack of
awareness among consumers of ways of accessing digital radio"
10. Low consumer interest in purchasing DAB radio receivers
? Only 16% of consumers intend to purchase a DAB radio in the next 12 
months, according
to Ofcom research
? 78% of radio receivers purchased by consumers in the UK (8m units per 
annum) are
analogue (FM/AM) and do not include DAB, according to GfK data
11. Sales volumes of DAB radio receivers are in decline
? UK sales volumes of DAB radios have declined year-on-year in three 
consecutive
quarters in 2008/9, according to GfK data
12. DAB radio offers poorer quality reception than FM radio
? The DAB transmission network was optimised to be received in-car, 
rather than in-buildings
? Consumer DAB reception remains poor in urban areas, in offices, in 
houses and in
basements, compared to FM
13. No common geographical coverage delivered by DAB multiplexes
? Consumers may receive only some DAB radio stations, because 
geographical coverage
varies by multiplex owner
14. Increased content choice for consumers is largely illusory
? The majority of content available on DAB radio duplicates stations 
already available
on analogue radio
15. Digital radio content is not proving attractive to consumers
? Only 5% of commercial radio listening is to digital-only radio 
stations, according
to RAJAR research
? 74% of commercial radio listening on digital platforms is to existing 
analogue
radio stations, according to RAJAR research
16. Consumer choice of exclusive digital radio content is shrinking
? The majority of national commercial digital radio stations have closed 
due to lack
of listening and low revenues
? After ten years of DAB in the UK, no digital radio station yet 
generates an operating
profit
17. Minimal DAB radio listening out-of-home
? Most DAB radio listening is in-home, and DAB is not impacting the 37% 
of radio
listening out-of-home
? Less than 1% of cars have DAB radios fitted, according to DRWG data
18. DAB radio has limited appeal to young people
? Only 18% of DAB radio receiver owners are under the age of 35, 
according to DRDB
data
? DAB take-up in the youth market is essential to foster usage and loyalty
19. DAB multiplex roll-out timetable has been delayed
? New DAB local multiplexes licensed by Ofcom between 2007 and 2009 have 
yet to launch
? DAB launch delays undermine consumer confidence
20. Legacy DAB receivers cannot be upgraded
? Almost none of the 10m DAB radio receivers sold in the UK can be 
upgraded to the
newer DAB+ transmission standard
? Neither can UK receivers be used to receive the digital radio systems 
implemented
in other European countries (notably France)
21. DAB/FM combination radio receivers have become the norm
? 95% of DAB radio receivers on sale in the UK also incorporate FM radio
? 9m FM radios are added annually to the UK consumer stock (plus 
millions of FM radios
in mobile devices), compared to 2m DAB radios, according to GfK data
22. DAB carriage costs are too high
? Carriage costs of the DAB platform remain too costly for content 
owners to offer
new, commercially viable radio services, compared to FM
? Unused capacity exits on DAB multiplexes, narrowing consumer choice
23. DAB investment is proving too costly for the
radio industry
? The UK radio industry is estimated to have spent more than ?700m on 
DAB transmission
costs and content in the last ten years
? The UK commercial radio sector is no longer profitable, partly as a 
result of having
diverted its operating profits to DAB
24. DAB is not a globally implemented standard
? DAB is not the digital radio transmission standard used in the most 
commercially
significant global markets (notably the United States)
Jack Schofield

-- 

Dane Trethowan
 From Melton Victoria Australia
mailto:"grtdane at internode.on.net
Phone +61390058589
Fax (+61 3) 9743 7954
Mobile/SMS +61 457 756048
MSN grtdane at dane-trethowan.net
skype:grtdane12
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/grtdane
blog: http://www.grtdane.wordpress.com



From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Dec 19 14:11:04 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:11:04 +0000
Subject: Network Expansion
Message-ID: <DA594A94-96F8-4564-87D8-795D556AB463@tft-bbs.com>

Good afternoon all; from a very cold and snowy North-East England

Please read this message, even if it appears off topic from that of the group where you see it. Doing so could save both you and us a lot of time in the short term.

Weather permitting, the time for our network expansion is almost upon us. The work is scheduled to begin with the installation of a dedicated leased line tomorrow morning by BT Openreach, the division of British Telecommunications PLC now responsible for all residential and business premises telecommunications infrastructure on behalf of all of the UK's telecommunications providers, including both BT PLC, all carriers of same, and also Virgin Media (NTL) business and residential brands. Again, weather permitting, this work is scheduled to commence any time between 08:00 and 13:00 UTC tomorrow; Monday, 20 December 2010, with the work itself taking up to approximate 2 hours to complete as it is a major installation job.

Gordon and I are hoping that we will be able to avoid any outage of existing services during the hours of installation.  However, owing to the close proximity of the inlet where all of our cables enter the premises and also the server assemblies themselves, it is possible that we may opt to shut down all services in the interests of both the safety of the equipment itself, and also the convenience of installation engineering personnel assigned to the task.

This is a decision which I am ultimately leaving up to Gordon; as he is the one who deals with the hardware assembly and he is the one who would ultimately be responsible for carrying out any maintenance or modifications should there be any unforeseen and unfortunate happenstance such as inadvertent damage or the need to physically disassemble any of the infrastructure itself.

His word on this matter is law; if he decides that a total shutdown of all equipment is appropriate, then so be it; it will be done. If not, then hopefully services will continue uninterrupted throughout the entire event.

Therefore, in advance of any outage, I wanted to take the opportunity now to apologise for any inconvenience which the work may cause you in the short term. Please be assured that we will do our utmost, as we always do on such occasions as this, to keep any disruption to an absolute minimum; and to restore full service at the very earliest moment possible.

Be assured also that, in the event of our email servers here going off stream as, naturally, they would have to do if we shut down all connectivity, we employ a network of off-site business-grade MX backup servers whose dedicated function is to collect, store and ultimately deliver traffic for us via the SMTP mechanism whilst and when our servers require it. Therefor, throughout the period of the outage, no legitimate email traffic should either bounce or be dropped from your mail queue as a direct result of the outage.

Of course, this assumes that the remote server sending the traffic is properly configured in accordance with RFC compliant specifications which stipulate that when a primary server is off line, the next highest priority server accepts traffic in its stead. Sadly, many public providers and Internet Service Providers, (ISPs), do not always adhere to RFC compliant policies. If they did, the amount of spam and other malicious email content circulating the Internet would be dramatically reduced on a daily basis and all of our inboxes would be far less cluttered.

I am no expert; but I regard Gordon as somewhat of an authority on these issues as it's how he makes a living. I've learned a lot about the problems associated from him over the last couple of years.

The exception to this rule is when the highest priority server actually "rejects" mail. In that circumstance, the mail is dropped from the mail queue and, depending upon local configuration, bounced to the sender.

As a side note, this is a technique which many spam email creators use to their advantage. Instead of trying the highest priority servers first, they reverse the sequence and try the lower priority ones first. The reason for this is that authorised MX exchange servers are usually configured at the primary server as what is known as an "irrespective MX Relay". Meaning that traffic delivered to the MX relay is despatched to the primary server, and accepted by it, regardless of the originator or its IP address. That is the most common route which spam uses to hit your mailbox. If, as many don't, the backup MX relay simply doesn't employ any anti-spam mechanism whatsoever, it is neigh on impossible for us to filter it.

Thus, Gordon and I employ business grade MX relays which do, for the most part, utilise anti-spam and anti-virus quarantine mechanisms. Actually we invest significantly in this facility each year but do not pass on that cost to you, our clients and, of course, our group members enjoy the same benefits. We believe that a spam-free inbox, (or at least as much so as possible, is a right, not a privilege and we take all possible measures to deliver that to our clients; as many of them will undoubtedly testify.

In any event; back to the primary topic. We apologise in advance for any inconvenience caused in any possible and necessary short term by the outage. The long term benefits will soon become apparent to all; we will announce further details regarding upcoming changes in the days and weeks ahead. If, as we sincerely hope won't be necessary, we have to reschedule the maintenance work owing to the adverse weather conditions of which the United Kingdom is currently in the grip, we will post a further announcement tomorrow to that effect, and then again when we have a definite alternative date.

Thank you for your understanding and patience during this time. If you require or desire further information, please feel free to contact us at either of our support addresses:
<support at mac-access.net>
or
<support at tft-bbs.com>
which ever you prefer, and we will try to provide. Please note finally that the outage, if it occurs, will apply unilaterally.

Lynne



From gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 14:54:37 2010
From: gillian at the-wacky-workshop.co.uk (Gillian Hadley)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:54:37 +0000
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
In-Reply-To: <4BC3BACF.3020907@internode.on.net>
References: <4BC3BACF.3020907@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <4F30DFBE-E4A8-42DA-86CF-8361F1A8114E@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>

I suppose the question is do we really care? What we are using works, we can listen to the radio so why on earth are people fussing?

On 13 Apr 2010, at 01:29, Dane Trethowan wrote:

> 
> This is an exert from a very long submission tabled in the U.K. parliament recently so people may wish to follow this up.


From support at tft-bbs.com  Sun Dec 19 14:56:19 2010
From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:56:19 +0000
Subject: Network Expansion Notifications; Please Read!
Message-ID: <C5966D72-87BA-473D-873D-B192EC459C37@tft-bbs.com>

Good afternoon all; from a very cold and snowy North-East England

Please read this message, even if it appears off topic from that of the group where you see it. Doing so could save both you and us a lot of time in the short term.

Weather permitting, the time for our network expansion is almost upon us. The work is scheduled to begin with the installation of a dedicated leased line tomorrow morning by BT Openreach, the division of British Telecommunications PLC now responsible for all residential and business premises telecommunications infrastructure on behalf of all of the UK's telecommunications providers, including both BT PLC, all carriers of same, and also Virgin Media (NTL) business and residential brands. Again, weather permitting, this work is scheduled to commence any time between 08:00 and 13:00 UTC tomorrow; Monday, 20 December 2010, with the work itself taking up to approximate 2 hours to complete as it is a major installation job.

Gordon and I are hoping that we will be able to avoid any outage of existing services during the hours of installation.  However, owing to the close proximity of the inlet where all of our cables enter the premises and also the server assemblies themselves, it is possible that we may opt to shut down all services in the interests of both the safety of the equipment itself, and also the convenience of installation engineering personnel assigned to the task.

This is a decision which I am ultimately leaving up to Gordon; as he is the one who deals with the hardware assembly and he is the one who would ultimately be responsible for carrying out any maintenance or modifications should there be any unforeseen and unfortunate happenstance such as inadvertent damage or the need to physically disassemble any of the infrastructure itself.

His word on this matter is law; if he decides that a total shutdown of all equipment is appropriate, then so be it; it will be done. If not, then hopefully services will continue uninterrupted throughout the entire event.

Therefore, in advance of any outage, I wanted to take the opportunity now to apologise for any inconvenience which the work may cause you in the short term. Please be assured that we will do our utmost, as we always do on such occasions as this, to keep any disruption to an absolute minimum; and to restore full service at the very earliest moment possible.

Be assured also that, in the event of our email servers here going off stream as, naturally, they would have to do if we shut down all connectivity, we employ a network of off-site business-grade MX backup servers whose dedicated function is to collect, store and ultimately deliver traffic for us via the SMTP mechanism whilst and when our servers require it. Therefor, throughout the period of the outage, no legitimate email traffic should either bounce or be dropped from your mail queue as a direct result of the outage.

Of course, this assumes that the remote server sending the traffic is properly configured in accordance with RFC compliant specifications which stipulate that when a primary server is off line, the next highest priority server accepts traffic in its stead. Sadly, many public providers and Internet Service Providers, (ISPs), do not always adhere to RFC compliant policies. If they did, the amount of spam and other malicious email content circulating the Internet would be dramatically reduced on a daily basis and all of our inboxes would be far less cluttered.

I am no expert; but I regard Gordon as somewhat of an authority on these issues as it's how he makes a living. I've learned a lot about the problems associated from him over the last couple of years.

The exception to this rule is when the highest priority server actually "rejects" mail. In that circumstance, the mail is dropped from the mail queue and, depending upon local configuration, bounced to the sender.

As a side note, this is a technique which many spam email creators use to their advantage. Instead of trying the highest priority servers first, they reverse the sequence and try the lower priority ones first. The reason for this is that authorised MX exchange servers are usually configured at the primary server as what is known as an "irrespective MX Relay". Meaning that traffic delivered to the MX relay is despatched to the primary server, and accepted by it, regardless of the originator or its IP address. That is the most common route which spam uses to hit your mailbox. If, as many don't, the backup MX relay simply doesn't employ any anti-spam mechanism whatsoever, it is neigh on impossible for us to filter it.

Thus, Gordon and I employ business grade MX relays which do, for the most part, utilise anti-spam and anti-virus quarantine mechanisms. Actually we invest significantly in this facility each year but do not pass on that cost to you, our clients and, of course, our group members enjoy the same benefits. We believe that a spam-free inbox, (or at least as much so as possible, is a right, not a privilege and we take all possible measures to deliver that to our clients; as many of them will undoubtedly testify.

In any event; back to the primary topic. We apologise in advance for any inconvenience caused in any possible and necessary short term by the outage. The long term benefits will soon become apparent to all; we will announce further details regarding upcoming changes in the days and weeks ahead. If, as we sincerely hope won't be necessary, we have to reschedule the maintenance work owing to the adverse weather conditions of which the United Kingdom is currently in the grip, we will post a further announcement tomorrow to that effect, and then again when we have a definite alternative date.

Thank you for your understanding and patience during this time. If you require or desire further information, please feel free to contact us at either of our support addresses:
<support at mac-access.net>
or
<support at tft-bbs.com>
which ever you prefer, and we will try to provide. Please note finally that the outage, if it occurs, will apply unilaterally.

Lynne


_______________________________________________

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access at mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages posted since 12 April 2010 to the Mac-Access forum at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html

The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free!

Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at:
http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Sun Dec 19 16:57:35 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:57:35 -0600
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
In-Reply-To: <4F30DFBE-E4A8-42DA-86CF-8361F1A8114E@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>
References: <4BC3BACF.3020907@internode.on.net>
	<4F30DFBE-E4A8-42DA-86CF-8361F1A8114E@the-wacky-workshop.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6190E46E-0B0A-417B-B96B-0A6797DCF6AB@softcon.com>


On Dec 19, 2010, at 8:54 AM, Gillian Hadley wrote:

> I suppose the question is do we really care? What we are using  
> works, we can listen to the radio so why on earth are people fussing?

The problem is, (at least in the us) there is legislation detailing  
when digital switchover *must* take place, and while I've not heard a  
thing about the radio end of things, the tv conversion was last year.   
Analog brodcasting no longer happens, so if you don't have a digital  
tv set, you can't pull channels out of the air without a digital to  
analog converter antenna box.  I have no idea what is being done with  
all the previous analog frequencies, though I've not gone to look  
either, so I guess there is that.  On the other hand, there was a huge  
campaign in the us, basically telling everyone their tv would no  
longer work after the switch over to digital channels, which was  
basically a lie, since as mentioned above, you can use an antenna to  
receive digital channels over the air, and you don't need to change a  
thing if you have cable, since all channels are being shown in exactly  
the same way via cable anyhow, not to mention, it still works  
perfectly for dvd playing, vcrs, and/or computer displays that were  
connected to them, so for most folks, there really was no need to go   
purchase a whole new tv set, since they weren't using their analog  
antennna to pick up channels anyway.
so basically it cost millions of americans hundreds or thousands of  
dollars to replace tvs that didn't need replacing, not to mention all  
those perfectly working tvs that now grace our landfills.  I'm  
personally of the opinion that the whole vchip thing was behind it,  
since so many people refused to buy new tvs because of the vchip  
technology.  All new tvs have it, but a lot of folks wouldn't buy then  
because of it.  This whole digital switchover was a ploy (imo) to get  
folks to purchase new tvs with the vchip in them.  (of course, I could  
just be over reacting, or being synical, but it's not like we don't  
have presidence for such things over here.
But, to get back on topic, here, it's kind of tough to receive fm  
channels if nobody is broadcasting on them, which is what the original  
article was addressing, basically saying that the broadcasters aren't  
ready, and the consumers aren't accepting the switch, but if the law  
states it switches on a certain date, at that point, all am/fm radios  
will no longer work, since nothing will be broadcast on them anymore.   
That would be bad.
The article was more about the unreadiness of folks to make the switch  
more than anything else.

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Sun Dec 19 17:28:47 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:28:47 -0600
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
Message-ID: <201012191728.oBJHSl66002790@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I thought the U.K. had a large presence of digital
radio.
	The United States uses the in-band on-channel system for
digital radio and I think it is a smart choice because the
spectrum is already there and there is no cutoff date or forced
obsolescence issue.

	Here, it is branded as HD radio to cash in on the high
definition digital television awareness.

	If you own a 20-year-old FM radio that still works, you
hear a HD station normally. You might hear a bit of humming
noise just above and below the center of tuning but it doesn't
cause any trouble.

	If you buy a HD radio, you can listen to it has a normal
stereo FM radio or select the HD feature in which you will
usually receive the same programming with compact disk quality
or some stations broadcast a second digital pair of channels
with other programming. Our local public radio station
broadcasts the same audio you hear on FM on HD1 and then
broadcasts classical music on HD2.

	The AM broadcast band, here, however is another story.

	There is HD radio for AM which gives you FM quality
sound if you are close enough to get a good signal but the extra
band width needed to transmit the digital information means that
every HD AM station broadcasts what sounds like white noise
above and below the center frequency. This shreds weaker signals
we used to be able to hear on adjacent channels.

	My own opinion is that AM radio died a long time ago
and we should quit shocking the corpse and give it a decent
burial.

	There was talk about a U.K.-style digital radio band
here that would take place of the AM broadcast band. AM stations
would have been put in to some of the spectrum abandoned by the
analog TV switch-off of 2009. This makes more sense to me but
this idea has gone nowhere as far as I know.

AM radio in the United States is mostly news, sports, religion
and political talk which doesn't really need high fidelity sound
to still sound good, but there are too many AM stations on too
few frequencies so AM radio after dark in North America is
nothing but a cacophony of interfering signals.

From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 20:18:21 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 20:18:21 +0000
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
In-Reply-To: <201012191728.oBJHSl66002790@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012191728.oBJHSl66002790@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <4E458EDC-B217-4422-98D5-2AB87854E69C@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

We do!  This article, for want of a better term, is a load of old godswollop  DAB radio is already well established in the UK and is now the overwhelming top selling format in terms of radio.

So that old hat subject line is grossly misleading and I don't honestly believe that subject was ever discussed recently in Parliament.  In fact, I saw that almost identical illogical pile of drivel over 3 years ago so it certainly isn't new.  Nor, I'm bound to say, is it anything like accurate.

The fact is that DAB radio is here to stay.  They might ultimately change the format but even that isn't going happen in the next 2 decades or so.  So it's just a total waste of electrons even to discuss it.

Gordon

On 19 Dec 2010, at 17:28, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	I thought the U.K. had a large presence of digital
> radio.
> 	The United States uses the in-band on-channel system for
> digital radio and I think it is a smart choice because the
> spectrum is already there and there is no cutoff date or forced
> obsolescence issue.
> 
> 	Here, it is branded as HD radio to cash in on the high
> definition digital television awareness.
> 
> 	If you own a 20-year-old FM radio that still works, you
> hear a HD station normally. You might hear a bit of humming
> noise just above and below the center of tuning but it doesn't
> cause any trouble.
> 
> 	If you buy a HD radio, you can listen to it has a normal
> stereo FM radio or select the HD feature in which you will
> usually receive the same programming with compact disk quality
> or some stations broadcast a second digital pair of channels
> with other programming. Our local public radio station
> broadcasts the same audio you hear on FM on HD1 and then
> broadcasts classical music on HD2.
> 
> 	The AM broadcast band, here, however is another story.
> 
> 	There is HD radio for AM which gives you FM quality
> sound if you are close enough to get a good signal but the extra
> band width needed to transmit the digital information means that
> every HD AM station broadcasts what sounds like white noise
> above and below the center frequency. This shreds weaker signals
> we used to be able to hear on adjacent channels.
> 
> 	My own opinion is that AM radio died a long time ago
> and we should quit shocking the corpse and give it a decent
> burial.
> 
> 	There was talk about a U.K.-style digital radio band
> here that would take place of the AM broadcast band. AM stations
> would have been put in to some of the spectrum abandoned by the
> analog TV switch-off of 2009. This makes more sense to me but
> this idea has gone nowhere as far as I know.
> 
> AM radio in the United States is mostly news, sports, religion
> and political talk which doesn't really need high fidelity sound
> to still sound good, but there are too many AM stations on too
> few frequencies so AM radio after dark in North America is
> nothing but a cacophony of interfering signals.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Sun Dec 19 20:29:43 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:29:43 -0600
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
Message-ID: <201012192029.oBJKThiT004089@x.it.okstate.edu>

That's what I thought. Thanks.
Gordon Smith writes:
> The fact is that DAB radio is here to stay.  They might ultimately change 
> the format but even that isn't going happen in the next 2 decades or so.  
> So it's just a total waste of electrons even to discuss it.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 21:18:13 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:18:13 -0800
Subject: Network Expansion Notifications; Please Read!
In-Reply-To: <C5966D72-87BA-473D-873D-B192EC459C37@tft-bbs.com>
References: <C5966D72-87BA-473D-873D-B192EC459C37@tft-bbs.com>
Message-ID: <28A77302-B68E-4BBD-B480-0B4500A802F8@gmail.com>

Hey thanks for the update. I'll be up recording in a studio but will keep an eye on things from my phone.

S
On Dec 19, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote:

> Good afternoon all; from a very cold and snowy North-East England
> 
> Please read this message, even if it appears off topic from that of the group where you see it. Doing so could save both you and us a lot of time in the short term.
> 
> Weather permitting, the time for our network expansion is almost upon us. The work is scheduled to begin with the installation of a dedicated leased line tomorrow morning by BT Openreach, the division of British Telecommunications PLC now responsible for all residential and business premises telecommunications infrastructure on behalf of all of the UK's telecommunications providers, including both BT PLC, all carriers of same, and also Virgin Media (NTL) business and residential brands. Again, weather permitting, this work is scheduled to commence any time between 08:00 and 13:00 UTC tomorrow; Monday, 20 December 2010, with the work itself taking up to approximate 2 hours to complete as it is a major installation job.
> 
> Gordon and I are hoping that we will be able to avoid any outage of existing services during the hours of installation.  However, owing to the close proximity of the inlet where all of our cables enter the premises and also the server assemblies themselves, it is possible that we may opt to shut down all services in the interests of both the safety of the equipment itself, and also the convenience of installation engineering personnel assigned to the task.
> 
> This is a decision which I am ultimately leaving up to Gordon; as he is the one who deals with the hardware assembly and he is the one who would ultimately be responsible for carrying out any maintenance or modifications should there be any unforeseen and unfortunate happenstance such as inadvertent damage or the need to physically disassemble any of the infrastructure itself.
> 
> His word on this matter is law; if he decides that a total shutdown of all equipment is appropriate, then so be it; it will be done. If not, then hopefully services will continue uninterrupted throughout the entire event.
> 
> Therefore, in advance of any outage, I wanted to take the opportunity now to apologise for any inconvenience which the work may cause you in the short term. Please be assured that we will do our utmost, as we always do on such occasions as this, to keep any disruption to an absolute minimum; and to restore full service at the very earliest moment possible.
> 
> Be assured also that, in the event of our email servers here going off stream as, naturally, they would have to do if we shut down all connectivity, we employ a network of off-site business-grade MX backup servers whose dedicated function is to collect, store and ultimately deliver traffic for us via the SMTP mechanism whilst and when our servers require it. Therefor, throughout the period of the outage, no legitimate email traffic should either bounce or be dropped from your mail queue as a direct result of the outage.
> 
> Of course, this assumes that the remote server sending the traffic is properly configured in accordance with RFC compliant specifications which stipulate that when a primary server is off line, the next highest priority server accepts traffic in its stead. Sadly, many public providers and Internet Service Providers, (ISPs), do not always adhere to RFC compliant policies. If they did, the amount of spam and other malicious email content circulating the Internet would be dramatically reduced on a daily basis and all of our inboxes would be far less cluttered.
> 
> I am no expert; but I regard Gordon as somewhat of an authority on these issues as it's how he makes a living. I've learned a lot about the problems associated from him over the last couple of years.
> 
> The exception to this rule is when the highest priority server actually "rejects" mail. In that circumstance, the mail is dropped from the mail queue and, depending upon local configuration, bounced to the sender.
> 
> As a side note, this is a technique which many spam email creators use to their advantage. Instead of trying the highest priority servers first, they reverse the sequence and try the lower priority ones first. The reason for this is that authorised MX exchange servers are usually configured at the primary server as what is known as an "irrespective MX Relay". Meaning that traffic delivered to the MX relay is despatched to the primary server, and accepted by it, regardless of the originator or its IP address. That is the most common route which spam uses to hit your mailbox. If, as many don't, the backup MX relay simply doesn't employ any anti-spam mechanism whatsoever, it is neigh on impossible for us to filter it.
> 
> Thus, Gordon and I employ business grade MX relays which do, for the most part, utilise anti-spam and anti-virus quarantine mechanisms. Actually we invest significantly in this facility each year but do not pass on that cost to you, our clients and, of course, our group members enjoy the same benefits. We believe that a spam-free inbox, (or at least as much so as possible, is a right, not a privilege and we take all possible measures to deliver that to our clients; as many of them will undoubtedly testify.
> 
> In any event; back to the primary topic. We apologise in advance for any inconvenience caused in any possible and necessary short term by the outage. The long term benefits will soon become apparent to all; we will announce further details regarding upcoming changes in the days and weeks ahead. If, as we sincerely hope won't be necessary, we have to reschedule the maintenance work owing to the adverse weather conditions of which the United Kingdom is currently in the grip, we will post a further announcement tomorrow to that effect, and then again when we have a definite alternative date.
> 
> Thank you for your understanding and patience during this time. If you require or desire further information, please feel free to contact us at either of our support addresses:
> <support at mac-access.net>
> or
> <support at tft-bbs.com>
> which ever you prefer, and we will try to provide. Please note finally that the outage, if it occurs, will apply unilaterally.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access at mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted since 12 April 2010 to the Mac-Access forum at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free!
> 
> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 

Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From grtdane at internode.on.net  Sun Dec 19 23:26:22 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:26:22 +1100
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K.
In-Reply-To: <4E458EDC-B217-4422-98D5-2AB87854E69C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
References: <201012191728.oBJHSl66002790@x.it.okstate.edu>
	<4E458EDC-B217-4422-98D5-2AB87854E69C@tft-bbs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4D0E949E.1030003@internode.on.net>

Okay, well I'm curious as to why this article resurfaced again as I sent 
the message about 8 months ago <smile>.

Load of old garbage? Well I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to say that.

No, I'm not a U.K. resident but there must be something to it if 
articles along the same lines keep appearing, its very easy to call 
articles "a load of old garbage" when one deliberately turns off reading 
newspapers or other journalws and - whilst many  newspapers and journals 
can publish widly inaccurate articles and reports at times - they're not 
totally wrong 100% of the time <smile> and then again, there's an 
authors personal bias and refusal to acknowledge possible well-known facts.

I can speak regarding the subject of DAB+ digital radio in Australia - 
or perhaps I should say DAB+ digital radio in the 6 mainland capital 
cities which are Melbourne Victoria, Sydney New South Whales, Cambera 
Australian Capital Teritory, Adelaide South Australia, Brisbane 
Queensland and Perth Western Australia.  DAB+ has been avaiable in most 
of these locations for the past 18 months and has proved popular, over 
700,000 people listen to DAB+ radio now.

However we in Australia have a huge problem and that is distance so the 
debate now rages regarding what sort of digital radio format for the 
country areas? It's likely that DRM will be adopted given that most 
medium-wave stations can adapt their transmitting equipment to accept 
the new standard.

No, the quality is not as good as DAB+, DRM transmitting on the 
medium-wave band is rated as "FM quality" but as the report recently 
published into Digital Radio in Australia says, in country areas its 
distance rather than quality CD quality of sound which needs to be 
considered and I for one can see where the ABA are coming from here.  
With DRM transmissions, if the receiver cannot receive the digital 
portion of the signal then the receiver switches to the medium-wave part 
of the signal which standard medium-wave radio receivers can receive.  
Its itneresting to note that the BBC have been - or perhaps still are as 
far as I know - using DRM in the U.K. for quite some time along with 
other major broadcasting organisations and company's, particularly those 
concerned with short wave broadcasting.

And finally, there has been a band set aside, think its in the region of 
30-40MHZ for a dedicated "DRM" band, this will allow wider band widths 
for higher quality audio signals, this band is also intended for country 
areas.

As for medium-wave and FM transmissions ceasing in capital city markets? 
There are no plans for this to happen so medium-wave and FM stations for 
capital city audiences similcast on DAB+ though the providers of 
medium-wave and FM broadcasts have provided the DAB+ audience with new 
channels.

Audio quality? I'm afraid its not good since every DAB+ station 
broadcasts on a maximum bit rate of 64K and some broadcast using 32K 
though it cannot be denyed that the absence of static and distortion 
make DAB+ an excellent listening medium.

DRM is similar to HD Radio in the states though you don't know a radio 
signal is transmitting the DRM portion when you tune over it with a 
standardard medium-wave receiver, you hear the signal as received by the 
radio.

Our standard of DAB is different from that used by the U.K., ours uses 
AAC encoding.



On 20/12/2010 7:18 AM, Gordon Smith wrote:
> Hello Martin
>
> We do!  This article, for want of a better term, is a load of old godswollop  DAB radio is already well established in the UK and is now the overwhelming top selling format in terms of radio.
>
> So that old hat subject line is grossly misleading and I don't honestly believe that subject was ever discussed recently in Parliament.  In fact, I saw that almost identical illogical pile of drivel over 3 years ago so it certainly isn't new.  Nor, I'm bound to say, is it anything like accurate.
>
> The fact is that DAB radio is here to stay.  They might ultimately change the format but even that isn't going happen in the next 2 decades or so.  So it's just a total waste of electrons even to discuss it.
>
> Gordon
>
> On 19 Dec 2010, at 17:28, Martin McCormick wrote:
>
>> 	I thought the U.K. had a large presence of digital
>> radio.
>> 	The United States uses the in-band on-channel system for
>> digital radio and I think it is a smart choice because the
>> spectrum is already there and there is no cutoff date or forced
>> obsolescence issue.
>>
>> 	Here, it is branded as HD radio to cash in on the high
>> definition digital television awareness.
>>
>> 	If you own a 20-year-old FM radio that still works, you
>> hear a HD station normally. You might hear a bit of humming
>> noise just above and below the center of tuning but it doesn't
>> cause any trouble.
>>
>> 	If you buy a HD radio, you can listen to it has a normal
>> stereo FM radio or select the HD feature in which you will
>> usually receive the same programming with compact disk quality
>> or some stations broadcast a second digital pair of channels
>> with other programming. Our local public radio station
>> broadcasts the same audio you hear on FM on HD1 and then
>> broadcasts classical music on HD2.
>>
>> 	The AM broadcast band, here, however is another story.
>>
>> 	There is HD radio for AM which gives you FM quality
>> sound if you are close enough to get a good signal but the extra
>> band width needed to transmit the digital information means that
>> every HD AM station broadcasts what sounds like white noise
>> above and below the center frequency. This shreds weaker signals
>> we used to be able to hear on adjacent channels.
>>
>> 	My own opinion is that AM radio died a long time ago
>> and we should quit shocking the corpse and give it a decent
>> burial.
>>
>> 	There was talk about a U.K.-style digital radio band
>> here that would take place of the AM broadcast band. AM stations
>> would have been put in to some of the spectrum abandoned by the
>> analog TV switch-off of 2009. This makes more sense to me but
>> this idea has gone nowhere as far as I know.
>>
>> AM radio in the United States is mostly news, sports, religion
>> and political talk which doesn't really need high fidelity sound
>> to still sound good, but there are too many AM stations on too
>> few frequencies so AM radio after dark in North America is
>> nothing but a cacophony of interfering signals.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>>
>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
>
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
>

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Dec 20 00:08:49 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:08:49 +1100
Subject: Ninite Easy PC Setup - Silent Unattended Install Multiple Programs
	At Once
Message-ID: <4D0E9E91.4050402@internode.on.net>

For users of the Windows XP Operating system and above, here's a site 
which will potentially save you hours upon hours of time, automate all 
your installs of software and more!.
http://ninite.com/

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Dec 20 14:15:44 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:15:44 -0600
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
Message-ID: <201012201415.oBKEFiqc009771@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Do you get much Sporadic E skip in Australia?
Dane Trethowan writes:
> And finally, there has been a band set aside, think its in the region of
> 30-40MHZ for a dedicated "DRM" band, this will allow wider band widths for
> higher quality audio signals, this band is also intended for country 
> areas.

	Sporadic E is an intense momentary cloud of ionized thin
air at about 90 KM or 60 miles above the Earth. It can reflect
signals from 20 or so MHZ up to occasionally 200 MHZ but 30-40
MHZ is perfect Sporadic E territory.

	The VHF low band in the United States covers 30 to 50
MHZ and was, at one time, used extensively for two-way radios in
delivery trucks, police and fire services and paging systems.
Radio users have abandoned this band in droves because of
Sporadic E and F2 skip. During Solar maxima, We could get BBC
and French television audio and video signals all day long. The
French came in here like they were next door in the 41.25 MHZ
range. The British television sound was in the 41.5 MHZ range
with 4 or 5 offsets to minimize interference between
transmitters in various parts of the country. I could routinely
hear BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales and several other BBC
television transmitters in different parts of the U.K. whose
locations were not certain.

	The BBC and French reception was via F2 layer skip. You
can tell the difference between Sporadic E and F2 by the
selective fading on the F2 signals. Sporadic E signals are
stunningly strong for short periods of time and there is no
selective fading, just overall fading with no sound distortion.

	If Australia uses those frequencies for DRM, we in the
United States may be able to hear you with the right equipment
during the next Solar peak.

	The BBC shut off the 41 MHZ  transmitters with their AM
audio and 405-line video in 1985, so I remember hearing. The
French must have done the same thing at around the same time as
none of that operation exists any more and the U.K. has had the
6-meter amateur band for quite a few years now.

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Mon Dec 20 15:30:38 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 02:30:38 +1100
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
In-Reply-To: <201012201415.oBKEFiqc009771@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012201415.oBKEFiqc009771@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <5AC2F2FA-50C3-4FFB-B494-0AA849297D3F@internode.on.net>

I'm not all that technically minded so if you don't mind I'll do a little research before I reply properly so as not to get my facts entirely screwed up <smile>.


On 21/12/2010, at 1:15 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Do you get much Sporadic E skip in Australia?
> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> And finally, there has been a band set aside, think its in the region of
>> 30-40MHZ for a dedicated "DRM" band, this will allow wider band widths for
>> higher quality audio signals, this band is also intended for country 
>> areas.
> 
> 	Sporadic E is an intense momentary cloud of ionized thin
> air at about 90 KM or 60 miles above the Earth. It can reflect
> signals from 20 or so MHZ up to occasionally 200 MHZ but 30-40
> MHZ is perfect Sporadic E territory.
> 
> 	The VHF low band in the United States covers 30 to 50
> MHZ and was, at one time, used extensively for two-way radios in
> delivery trucks, police and fire services and paging systems.
> Radio users have abandoned this band in droves because of
> Sporadic E and F2 skip. During Solar maxima, We could get BBC
> and French television audio and video signals all day long. The
> French came in here like they were next door in the 41.25 MHZ
> range. The British television sound was in the 41.5 MHZ range
> with 4 or 5 offsets to minimize interference between
> transmitters in various parts of the country. I could routinely
> hear BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales and several other BBC
> television transmitters in different parts of the U.K. whose
> locations were not certain.
> 
> 	The BBC and French reception was via F2 layer skip. You
> can tell the difference between Sporadic E and F2 by the
> selective fading on the F2 signals. Sporadic E signals are
> stunningly strong for short periods of time and there is no
> selective fading, just overall fading with no sound distortion.
> 
> 	If Australia uses those frequencies for DRM, we in the
> United States may be able to hear you with the right equipment
> during the next Solar peak.
> 
> 	The BBC shut off the 41 MHZ  transmitters with their AM
> audio and 405-line video in 1985, so I remember hearing. The
> French must have done the same thing at around the same time as
> none of that operation exists any more and the U.K. has had the
> 6-meter amateur band for quite a few years now.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 16:35:26 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:35:26 -0800
Subject: Interview with one of the two Dutch teenagers arrested for DDoS -
	"would do it again"
Message-ID: <E4D6A746-2CB7-4EDB-998A-C035B332DF72@gmail.com>

Is it right to stand up for what you believe in with this matter? Should the tean taken part in this attack? read more:   http://bit.ly/fD6zi5
Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 16:36:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:36:04 -0800
Subject: Interview with one of the two Dutch teenagers arrested for DDoS -
	"would do it again": Is it right to stand up for what you
	believe in with this matter? Should the tean taken part in this
	attack? read more: http://bit.ly/fD6zi5 Sarah Alawami MSN:
	marrie12@gmail.com Website: http://music.marrie.org youtube:
	http://youtube.com/marrie125 podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
	podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile 
Message-ID: <FDF0E421-B396-4A6D-88F9-7D03CCE31068@gmail.com>



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 16:38:18 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:38:18 -0800
Subject: Sorry about that message beeing sent twice
Message-ID: <8A108204-8409-4496-9A26-7F11958A887D@gmail.com>

Well that's what happens when I'm half awake! Growl! I only meant that message to be sent once and then once somewhere else.

Once again sorry all. Maybe I might go get some sleep. lol!

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 16:41:06 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:41:06 -0800
Subject: Microsoft quietly shuts down Office Genuine Advantage program
Message-ID: <56569E55-53B5-4012-B812-DCBA08DC85D7@gmail.com>

Safari was giving me issues so could not read the whole article but still not sure if that was a good move on microsoft's part. Read more:   http://zd.net/enkwSv

From grtdane at internode.on.net  Tue Dec 21 00:25:26 2010
From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:25:26 +1100
Subject: 25 reasons why DAB Radio won't succeed in the U.K. 
In-Reply-To: <201012201415.oBKEFiqc009771@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012201415.oBKEFiqc009771@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <79426526-EB79-4868-B0D4-F3D1B7E0E02C@internode.on.net>

Yep sure do when the sun goes down, that's why the Sunrise Sunset app on Iphone is so handy.

I'm out of town so I use it to my advantage, I get VOA's 1 megawatt transmitter in thailand on 1575KHZ regularly, I'm located in Australia and nowhere near the Pacific Ocean as the crow flies so that's not a bad job.

I also received KNX in Los Angelees I think it is, can't get it now as there's a strong signal transmitting nearly right over the top of it.

Actually we had a situation some time ago where a Melbourne station had to close at 7:00 PM and reopen at 7:00 AM because of all this, it would cause interference with a country station and vica versa.


On 21/12/2010, at 1:15 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

> 	Do you get much Sporadic E skip in Australia?
> Dane Trethowan writes:
>> And finally, there has been a band set aside, think its in the region of
>> 30-40MHZ for a dedicated "DRM" band, this will allow wider band widths for
>> higher quality audio signals, this band is also intended for country 
>> areas.
> 
> 	Sporadic E is an intense momentary cloud of ionized thin
> air at about 90 KM or 60 miles above the Earth. It can reflect
> signals from 20 or so MHZ up to occasionally 200 MHZ but 30-40
> MHZ is perfect Sporadic E territory.
> 
> 	The VHF low band in the United States covers 30 to 50
> MHZ and was, at one time, used extensively for two-way radios in
> delivery trucks, police and fire services and paging systems.
> Radio users have abandoned this band in droves because of
> Sporadic E and F2 skip. During Solar maxima, We could get BBC
> and French television audio and video signals all day long. The
> French came in here like they were next door in the 41.25 MHZ
> range. The British television sound was in the 41.5 MHZ range
> with 4 or 5 offsets to minimize interference between
> transmitters in various parts of the country. I could routinely
> hear BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales and several other BBC
> television transmitters in different parts of the U.K. whose
> locations were not certain.
> 
> 	The BBC and French reception was via F2 layer skip. You
> can tell the difference between Sporadic E and F2 by the
> selective fading on the F2 signals. Sporadic E signals are
> stunningly strong for short periods of time and there is no
> selective fading, just overall fading with no sound distortion.
> 
> 	If Australia uses those frequencies for DRM, we in the
> United States may be able to hear you with the right equipment
> during the next Solar peak.
> 
> 	The BBC shut off the 41 MHZ  transmitters with their AM
> audio and 405-line video in 1985, so I remember hearing. The
> French must have done the same thing at around the same time as
> none of that operation exists any more and the U.K. has had the
> 6-meter amateur band for quite a few years now.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Dec 21 23:46:59 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:46:59 -0600
Subject: Microsoft quietly shuts down Office Genuine Advantage program
In-Reply-To: <56569E55-53B5-4012-B812-DCBA08DC85D7@gmail.com>
References: <56569E55-53B5-4012-B812-DCBA08DC85D7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6FD194B2-56BA-4529-9009-993548018F9B@softcon.com>

Bah, ms knows folks are fed up with their harrassment of folks who  
properly purchase their software, so they decided retiring the oga was  
a good move on their part, since people are leaving ms in droves for  
osx, and linux (which is becoming easier to use by the day) and they  
needed some method of persuading people using ms was a good idea.   
Removing the obsticles to getting office add-ons (and firefox ones too  
apparently) was just a move on their part to attempt to reduce the  
annoyance factor, so folks would consider staying with ms instead of  
going elsewhere.
Like I say all the time, until my irritation factor exceedes my  
patience quota, I'll not be leaving apple either, but when that  
happens, (and having to validate everytime I wanted to download a  
template or addon for an apple program would definitely go a long way  
towards causing that to happen) I'm not going anywhere, because apple  
really has made it easy and useful for us to use their machines.  Ms  
has never been about the customer, or ease of use, they've always been  
about the numbers.  Now the numbers are dropping, and apparently, they  
thought that dropping goa would give them a little of that much needed  
numerical advantage again.


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Wed Dec 22 01:59:06 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:59:06 -0600
Subject: Microsoft quietly shuts down Office Genuine Advantage program 
Message-ID: <201012220159.oBM1x6vX025522@x.it.okstate.edu>

	Around about the year 2000, I realized that MS was never
going to fix Windows by making it more Unix-like nor were they
going to include a serious screen reader as a built-in in their
operating system so I gave up on MS as an option.

	There are a lot of people who do not have that luxury,
though, and at least the expensive bolted-on afterward solutions
are available.

	My technical objections to Windows are the
catch-as-catch-can attitude toward input and output and the fact
that mail and media engines which are embedded within Windows
can remotely execute code on another's system without the
owner's approval or knowledge. It is as if there was a secret
tunnel under your house and a trap door in the floor of a
central room so that anybody who wants to can bypass your locked
doors and roam freely in your house.
	By the way, I sometimes cut off part of the quoted text
at the bottom for the sake of band-width. Please do not take any
offense. I try to leave enough in to tell what I am responding
to in order to avoid confusion.

Martin

Travis Siegel writes:
> Bah, ms knows folks are fed up with their harrassment of folks who 
> properly
> purchase their software, so they decided retiring the oga was a good move
> on their part, since people are leaving ms in droves for osx, and linux
> (which is becoming easier to use by the day) and they needed some method 
> of
> persuading people using ms was a good idea. Removing the obsticles to
> getting office add-ons (and firefox ones too apparently) was just a move 
> on
> their part to attempt to reduce the annoyance factor, so folks would
> consider staying with ms instead of going elsewhere.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 24 01:26:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:26:27 -0800
Subject: FCC Net neutrality rules reach mobile apps 
Message-ID: <2ACBF795-67AB-4FBE-8B64-D840AA8B2DB4@gmail.com>

I didn't finish the article as half the legal language went over my head. lol! but read on to see what hte US is facing with this issue: http://bit.ly/eySsgX
Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 24 21:41:27 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 13:41:27 -0800
Subject: Corporate control of the Internet is a problem,
	but regulation won't solve it!
Message-ID: <50AA5D26-69F2-4706-B4E9-EE91B7FEF41E@gmail.com>

an excerpt from  the article follows. "Al Franken has just released another video regarding his take on net neutrality, which he has dramatically called ?the First Amendment issue of our time.? This may or may not be true, but the trust proponents of net neutrality are placing in government to ensure that corporations do not dominate the internet is completely unmerited...."

Read more: http://bit.ly/ezMK8n

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec 26 15:47:16 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 15:47:16 +0000
Subject: Wanted;
	Accessible, Effective, Total, Disaster Recovery Backup & Restore
	Software for Windows!
Message-ID: <BDA58382-D45B-4BF0-BB9D-EB8293B7EBBB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello and season's greetings to everybody on list.

I suppose the subject line says it all really. I'm looking for a total backup solution for Windows which will allow the user to do a total, from the ground up restore of a Windows system. But here is the slight complication in our case; this is not a physical PC, it is a Boot Camp partition on a Mac. So booting from a floppy drive is out of the question. Even if we had a floppy drive, (which we don't), it would be useless.

We do have RollBack, but that is only a partial solution. It doesn't allow the total restoration of the entire partition at the ground level. This is one thing we hate about Windows, the need to mess around like this with external software. One cannot simply laugh off disasters as one could with OSX, for instance, and know that one has working backups ready to go.

We wondered about Norton Ghost; but after our last experience with Symantech, where they just told us we weren't allowed to download the installer any more even though we'd bought a license to do so, we're unwilling to be ripped off again in the same way.

Powerquest doesn't seem to exist any longer, so that's the end of Drive Image.

I know that NTI does a backup solution; but we don't know much about it. How accessible is, it? How deep does it go?

Those apart, Gordon and I are totally out of touch with what's happening in the Windows marketplace these days. We don't use the OS that much but for work reasons. We still can't find a way to do what we need to do effectively and without hassle under OSX. And Gordon would like to resume broadcasting from home next year using OTS DJ Pro Classic to which we have licenses. Actually we have 3 licenses I think, but will probably only use one of them but don't want the reset counters blocked again. So we need an accessible and effective total backup solution.

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec 26 16:38:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:38:51 +0000
Subject: Video Creation Question
Message-ID: <0778E275-6BA6-47D1-81FF-770C425470C5@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello and season's greetings everybody

This is probably going to sound like a bit of a dumb question; and I apologise for that. But here goes nevertheless.

I was ripping some DVDs yesterday for our own personal use into Apple TV compatible format. I opted to try and preserve the surround sound data on the audio.

I won't detail the steps I took to do this, because they're specific to the application we use for this process and they're not especially important anyway. The important point is that I selected the audio track I wanted, (i.e., English language), and I set the ripper to preserve the track in its original format, retaining the surround sound on the audio track.

When the rip was complete, I attempted to play the output using our computer. The video quality was even better than I had dared hope for, as I am fortunate enough to have excellent vision and, therefore, was able to play around tweaking the settings of the decoder in the player until I ended up with virtually indistinguishable video quality from the original DVD. Actually I was quite proud of the results I got from that by tweaking and poking it.

But the problem was, as I said, the audio. When I attempted to play the resulting output files after the rip was complete, I had beautiful video, as I said, but absolutely no audio whatsoever. It was a little bit like watching one of those old silent movies, only in better quality and there was no irritating music. :)

I had expected that, if there was no surround sound system present, the audio would simply revert to stereo, as it does when you play a DVD in a standard DVD player with no 5.1 audio receiver installed in the system. But that, it seems, is not the case. If I retain the audio in its exact original format, I don't get any stereo audio output whatsoever.

So here's my question; why is this? And, additionally, is there a way around the problem so that the Dolby 5.1 audio can still be retained on the audio track of the files, but yet a 2-channel stereo track also exists?

Of course, it could be that there is an option within the ripper itself that I've missed that allows you to do that. But I have to say I didn't see one. The only way I know of creating a stereo audio track is to recode the original audio when you do the rip and that would obviously kill the surround sound audio.

So, in summary, my question is; is there a way to have both the 5.1 pro logic (or whatever it's called), and also a stereo audio track on the ripped version, just as there is on the original DVD?

Thank you; and I apologise for my garbled explanation.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Sun Dec 26 20:01:10 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 14:01:10 -0600
Subject: Video Creation Question 
Message-ID: <201012262001.oBQK1A81071931@x.it.okstate.edu>

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:

> I had expected that, if there was no surround sound system present, the 
> audio would simply revert to stereo, as it does when you play a DVD in a 
> standard DVD player with no 5.1 audio receiver installed in the system. 

	This is very strange because the 5 channels are usually:

Left front, center, right front and
Left rear and Right rear. Your .1 channel is the subwoofer if
you have one.

	My theory is that watching the movie with a stereo sound
track may be reading a different file just like would happen if
you wanted to watch in French.

	The Dolbey track may not be encoded in a way that is
compatible with the way the stereo track is recorded.

> But that, it seems, is not the case. If I retain the audio in its exact 
> original format, I don't get any stereo audio output whatsoever.

Do you get the rear channels and the subwoofer output, also
called the LFE channel?

Martin

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Sun Dec 26 20:33:49 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 20:33:49 +0000
Subject: Video Creation Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012262001.oBQK1A81071931@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012262001.oBQK1A81071931@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <B943D2D2-64DF-416D-83D4-356078F597BC@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 26 Dec 2010, at 20:01, Martin McCormick wrote:

To answer your question, no; I get absolutely no audio whatsoever. Using the ripper I am which is a Mac-based ripper, I select "Pass Through" as that is supposed to simply retain the audio in its original format. I see from the file's properties that it does indeed contain 5 audio channels but when I try to play it it's absolutely silent. The picture is perfect. In fact it's better than most digital TV stations I watch. But there is absolutely no audio whatsoever.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Dec 27 00:46:47 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:46:47 -0600
Subject: Video Creation Question 
Message-ID: <201012270046.oBR0klOD073467@x.it.okstate.edu>

	I got to thinking about this a bit more and it looks
like what you did was a perfectly reasonable thing but darned,
if these computers don't do what we tell them to do rather than
what we expected them to do.

	You wanted to preserve the 5.1 channels in your original
rip and you did exactly that. The left front and right front
channels in that 5.1 channel stream are essentially the two
stereo channels you wanted but that whole stream must be decoded
to get them which is not intuitive so you must have the Dolby
decoder there to hear even the stereo.

	You could make the same rip as before except select the
two-channel sound and it will play on the non-Dolby system but
loose all the 5.1 channel information. 

	You may be stuck with having to make two rips, one with Dolby
and the other with conventional stereo since neither system is
functional with the other format. They truly are two wholly
different forms of audio coding that are embedded along with the
video so it all arrives at the right time. The video decoder
knows what parts of the signal are video and ignores everything
else. The Dolby5 decoder recognizes Dolby5 data and turns it in
to sound for one of the 5 channels or it ignores it if it
doesn't look like Dolby5. The Stereo decoder is looking for bit
patterns that actually end up looking like an MP3 stream. All
these decoders simply go silent or dark if they see foreign
data.

	This is an oversimplification because I do not know
everything there is to know about digital audio/video recordings
but I think that is what is happening to your sound.

Martin

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> To answer your question, no; I get absolutely no audio whatsoever. Using 
> the ripper I am which is a Mac-based ripper, I select "Pass Through" as 
> that is supposed to simply retain the audio in its original format. I see 
> from the file's properties that it does indeed contain 5 audio channels 
> but when I try to play it it's absolutely silent. The picture is perfect. 
> In fact it's better than most digital TV stations I watch. But there is 
> absolutely no audio whatsoever.


From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 27 02:23:05 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 02:23:05 +0000
Subject: Video Creation Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012270046.oBR0klOD073467@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012270046.oBR0klOD073467@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <C663F808-37E7-494D-8D84-6D9DCD373DD7@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

Thank you for your input; it has been very helpful. I think I'm going to have to look at this from the perspective of practicality. Each rip is not far short of 800MB and there are hundreds of DVDs we want to rip.

Consider: All episodes of the original Star Trek series, all 3 seasons. All episodes of the Star Trek Next Generation series, all seven seasons. All episodes of the complete Deep Space Nine series, (I think there were 7 seasons of that too and we have it all). I think there were only 2 seasons of the next version which was called Enterprise. But we also have every movie to rip, from the first 1979 movie starring William Shatner to the final movie which, from memory, was a Patrick Stewart thing.

Then, there are all of the Harry Potter movies, with the final one to add when it is released on DVD. And finally, we have every single episode of the Australian TV soap, "Prisoner Cell Block H", as it was called here in the UK.  This comprises of 692 episodes plus quite a bit of extra footage.

Those are the ones I can think of of the top of my head which we want to rip. But not all of them would contain Dolby audio. So it looks as though I need to make a choice; do I rip the Dolby or do I forget that and just use 2-channel stereo.

Actually Gordon is making a very good point to me as I write this, and it might even explain the problem. When we do the rip using even the basic options, the ripper is actually recoding the audio track. So perhaps what is happening is that it is recoding the audio and when I set it to pass through mode, it's doing what it's supposed to do, just giving me the audio exactly as it is on the DVDs.

Ultimately then, it seems that if I want the 5 channel rips to play, I need to buy a surround sound receiver. That's fine, I could do that, as we do have an Apple TV. But I want one which Gordon could use and configure to his liking without my needing to set up all the menus for him. In other words, one which is just menu driven is out of the question.

I've been told that there are some models which can be configured via an Ethernet connection. Is that correct and, if so, does anybody have details?

Thank you.

Lynne


From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Mon Dec 27 13:06:31 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:06:31 -0600
Subject: Video Creation Question 
Message-ID: <201012271306.oBRD6VZZ078849@x.it.okstate.edu>

Gently not quoting all to save a bit of space:

"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:

>I want one which Gordon could use and 
> configure to his liking without my needing to set up all the menus for 
> him.
> In other words, one which is just menu driven is out of the question.
> 
> I've been told that there are some models which can be configured via an 
> Ethernet connection. Is that correct and, if so, does anybody have 
> details?

	You are correct. Devices exist that can be configured
via serial cables and or remote Ethernet protocols. That's the
good news. The bad news is that the morons who design these
systems use proprietary codes and develop GUI software or some
other abomination that they sell to professional installers who
you pay to set it all up for you.

	Then, they take their little laptops and your
configuration away with them after you pay the bill and they
will always be glad to come back if you put some more money in
the meter.

	What I always thought would be interesting to do is to
sniff an Ethernet exchange between one of those cool receivers
and its controller as somebody sets it up. They would probably
raise a holy howel if they knew what you were doing, but what
they don't know won't hurt you.

	You might find a perfectly, if not a bit cryptic,
accessible interface that would take some learning on your part to use but
you could do it, or you might find a binary nightmare of chatter
going back and forth as the same GUI screen is duplicated over
the network. In that case, it would be all for not.

	Some of the fancier classrooms at OSU have modern
built-in AV installations controlled by a brand of controller
that is also sold for high-end home installations but not to end
users like us.

	You can get right in to the local touch pannel from
anywhere on campus and monkey with (administer) to your heart's
content any equipment in the room as well as read its operating
status. This wouldn't help us, though, because the administrator
sees the same GUI screen he or she would see if standing in that
room at that touch pannel.

	I have some radio receivers for which the protocol is
public knowledge and a transceiver for which it is either not or
I just haven't looked in the right place yet, but Everybody does
their remote controlling differently and some of it requires a
lot more work to use but makes for a nice long project to keep
one busy.

	If you find a device you can use, let us all know as I
am sure some of this stuff can work for us if we learn the
control protocols.

	There may even be companies that will either sell you
the protocol information or who publish it somewhere. That would
be the best way to get it but don't hold your breath.

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 27 13:59:51 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:59:51 +0000
Subject: Video Creation; What A Fool I've Been!
Message-ID: <51FAE99B-96C8-4915-98D2-35B3CE683F3E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Why, Oh Why, Didn't I See It?  The solution to my video creation problem has just been pointed out to me by Gordon who quite calmly just said "Lynne, my sweet, here's where you've gone wrong my dear!"

What I need to do is simply tell the player to create 2 distinct English audio tracks; one with Dolby Pro Logic (DTS) by retaining the original audio characteristics of the content. Then, create a second audio track, but with re-coded two-channel stereo audio. That way, the player should be able to auto-select the audio content most appropriate to the environment.

The ripper I'm using is capable of creating up to 4 unique audio tracks per exported file. So the solution was staring me in the face all the time; and I just didn't see it! Gordon is usually too preoccupied with other problems; but if I'd only asked him before wasting time on this, I'd have had the job well under way by now!

Lynne



From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 27 14:53:02 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 14:53:02 +0000
Subject: Video Creation Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012271306.oBRD6VZZ078849@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012271306.oBRD6VZZ078849@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <7C6FC1D7-8097-4AAA-995B-0337D45E73AB@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 27 Dec 2010, at 13:06, Martin McCormick wrote:

> ? You are correct. Devices exist that can be configured via serial cables and or remote Ethernet protocols. That's the
> good news. The bad news is that the morons who design these
> systems use proprietary codes and develop GUI software or some
> other abomination that they sell to professional installers who
> you pay to set it all up for you.
> 
No, not me! The simple fact is that, if I can't do it myself or, in this case, if we can't do it ourselves, we simply don't buy the model.

> Then, they take their little laptops and your
> configuration away with them after you pay the bill and they
> will always be glad to come back if you put some more money in
> the meter.
> 
Definitely no custom for them here.

> What I always thought would be interesting to do is to sniff an Ethernet exchange between one of those cool receivers and its controller as somebody sets it up. They would probably
> raise a holy howel if they knew what you were doing, but what they don't know won't hurt you.
> 
I wouldn't know where to start with that. But it doesn't really matter. As I said, if they don't give me the keys I don't buy the car!

> You might find a perfectly, if not a bit cryptic, accessible interface that would take some learning on your part to use but you could do it, or you might find a binary nightmare of chatter going back and forth as the same GUI screen is duplicated over
> the network. In that case, it would be all for not.
> 
I've got no problem with the concept of learning how to use a device. It's a bit like learning to drive my new car which I'm expecting in January because of the incident in the car park which I have detailed elsewhere. I don't even mind sitting down with a manual and spending the time reading through it. But this isn't only for my use; it is important that Gordon can also use it.

I think this is becoming more of a problem with modern[day electronic domestic entertainment systems, they are increasingly utilising onscreen, or even touch screen menu systems instead of good old-fashioned buttons on infra-red remote controls. In fact, the new TV which Gordon bought me for Christmas does have a remote control; but it uses touch technology. The remote doesn't have a single button on it. I find that really disappointing because it obviously precludes blind people from using it. Manufacturers don't even consider the possibility of the visually impaired wanting to use their products.

> ? Some of the fancier classrooms at OSU have modern
> built-in AV installations controlled by a brand of controller
> that is also sold for high-end home installations but not to end
> users like us.
> 
Well to me that's not a problem; I simply don't give them my money. I'm not prepared to buy something that expensive and just take a chance, hoping that it might be usable. Before I part with money, I want a cast-iron guarantee that it's accessible, whether via local control, Ethernet or any other means.

Thanks for your input; I'll be sure to let the group know if I find anything. Oh, and by the way, I don't buy old second-hand stuff. So please don't anybody waste their time talking about if I can get hold of a 10-year-old model on the used market. :)

Lynne



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 27 21:00:03 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:00:03 -0800
Subject: recovering data from a damaged hard drive
Message-ID: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>

Hello to all. I  do plan on googling but I don't know what I'm looking for and i don't know how to tell if this is a scam or not

I need to recover data from a hard drive that got damaged. it still works sort of but I don't have the tools to recover the data at all. I found a store here where I live but they want $149 for a 2 tb hard drive. If anyone knows of a place where I live or near there that costs less but can get my data to me please let me know. feel free to write me off list for this one btw. Ok I'm done sobbing for now. lol! Yeah I have projects I was  working on for people on there! Grumble!

Anyway hope you all are having a wonderful holiday.


Sarah Alawami

MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com

Website: http://music.marrie.org
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile


From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk  Mon Dec 27 22:01:31 2010
From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 22:01:31 +0000
Subject: recovering data from a damaged hard drive
In-Reply-To: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>
References: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E06BE513-B998-4CF4-B6D9-0BA02F5C420E@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hi Sarah

Depends on how much you value your data.  But you might want to buy yourself a copy of Spinrite, from http://www.grc.com which is the tool I use for data recovery on the rare occasions I get asked to do this kind of work these days.

Gordon


On 27 Dec 2010, at 21:00, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> Hello to all. I  do plan on googling but I don't know what I'm looking for and i don't know how to tell if this is a scam or not
> 
> I need to recover data from a hard drive that got damaged. it still works sort of but I don't have the tools to recover the data at all. I found a store here where I live but they want $149 for a 2 tb hard drive. If anyone knows of a place where I live or near there that costs less but can get my data to me please let me know. feel free to write me off list for this one btw. Ok I'm done sobbing for now. lol! Yeah I have projects I was  working on for people on there! Grumble!
> 
> Anyway hope you all are having a wonderful holiday.
> 
> 
> Sarah Alawami
> 
> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
> 
> Website: http://music.marrie.org
> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
> podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
> podcast mobile http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 28 00:47:29 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:47:29 -0800
Subject: AT&T's "The Last Text" - dramatic documentary on the dangers of
	texting and driving
Message-ID: <4EE2F095-34C7-4743-A58F-419614F1A8C2@gmail.com>

All I will say guys is don't text and drive or walk at the same time! Just! Don't! Read more:   http://bit.ly/e3oBSr

From tsiegel at softcon.com  Tue Dec 28 17:24:41 2010
From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:24:41 -0600
Subject: recovering data from a damaged hard drive
In-Reply-To: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>
References: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99F2708D-ECD6-4FF7-BAA2-117059FC8399@softcon.com>

If the disk works, then just plug it into a second computer that  
already has a drive it boots from, and copy the data off to another  
partition on the existing computer you booted from.
That's the simplest method of retrieving your data.
But, all things considered, $149 for 2tb of recovered data isn't that  
bad.
If the disk doesn't work at all, then you're not going to be able to  
retrieve your data by yourself, you'll need a data recovery shop that  
has cleen rooms, and machines that can read the hd platters after  
they're removed from the hd, and those kinds of services usually cost  
thousands of dollars.
If you can do it yourself, then by all means do so, just don't write  
to the disk while you're copying data from it, (this includes deleting  
files) until you have everything you want from the disk, after that, a  
full reformat is in order, which may or may not bring the disk back to  
usable status, but you never want to toss a drive with personal data  
on it, as some folks have a nasty habbit of retrieving said disks, and  
selling the data found there.
It's not likely this would happen to you, but it's always worth  
keeping in mind anyway.


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 28 17:38:56 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 09:38:56 -0800
Subject: recovering data from a damaged hard drive
In-Reply-To: <99F2708D-ECD6-4FF7-BAA2-117059FC8399@softcon.com>
References: <C5A78887-4D64-4149-B9A7-80057C22D387@gmail.com>
	<99F2708D-ECD6-4FF7-BAA2-117059FC8399@softcon.com>
Message-ID: <2F0215D0-61F7-48E6-9BD0-F7533936845B@gmail.com>

yeah I plan on trashing the older drive but yeah I can't recover this by myself. Next time I'm envesting in a case for this drive if western digital sells one.
On Dec 28, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:

> If the disk works, then just plug it into a second computer that already has a drive it boots from, and copy the data off to another partition on the existing computer you booted from.
> That's the simplest method of retrieving your data.
> But, all things considered, $149 for 2tb of recovered data isn't that bad.
> If the disk doesn't work at all, then you're not going to be able to retrieve your data by yourself, you'll need a data recovery shop that has cleen rooms, and machines that can read the hd platters after they're removed from the hd, and those kinds of services usually cost thousands of dollars.
> If you can do it yourself, then by all means do so, just don't write to the disk while you're copying data from it, (this includes deleting files) until you have everything you want from the disk, after that, a full reformat is in order, which may or may not bring the disk back to usable status, but you never want to toss a drive with personal data on it, as some folks have a nasty habbit of retrieving said disks, and selling the data found there.
> It's not likely this would happen to you, but it's always worth keeping in mind anyway.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free
> 
> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at:
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 28 19:06:04 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:06:04 -0800
Subject: Sears and Kmart team up with Sonic to launch a Netflix competitor.
Message-ID: <AC335664-0728-4459-A1E2-46882EA11405@gmail.com>

Will this go bust or will this be a success? read more:  http://tcrn.ch/hy939U

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 28 20:34:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 12:34:34 -0800
Subject: Mozilla exposes older user-account database 
Message-ID: <AA8096EF-0DDF-4339-B0C0-29FEA28ECB19@gmail.com>

Remember, change your password and make it as strong as a fort! read more:http://bit.ly/eFG91e

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 29 03:24:24 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:24:24 -0800
Subject: FCC: ISPs can't use First Amendment as shield from net neutrality
Message-ID: <AE96B334-1427-4D4D-B158-A6349F462AD3@gmail.com>

Will comcast try and get around this ruling? Is this really a good idea? read more:  http://bit.ly/eCaVtY

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 30 00:40:25 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 16:40:25 -0800
Subject: Sony wants LG phones out of U.S. market 
Message-ID: <1C08E812-0CCB-474B-B5D6-D50468C1076C@gmail.com>

Will soni win its law suit against the smart phone companys? read more: http://bit.ly/i9dOiY

From martin at x.it.okstate.edu  Thu Dec 30 13:27:38 2010
From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 07:27:38 -0600
Subject: Video Creation Question 
Message-ID: <201012301327.oBUDRcun009282@x.it.okstate.edu>

Congratulations on solving your problem.
"Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes:
> No, not me! The simple fact is that, if I can't do it myself or, in this 
> case, if we can't do it ourselves, we simply don't buy the model.

Perfect approach. This stuff isn't brattle snakes. If they don't
want me to use it, I'll go somewhere else.

> Definitely no custom for them here.
> 
originally from me:

> > What I always thought would be interesting to do is to sniff an 
> Ethernet exchange between one of those cool receivers and its controller 
> as somebody sets it up. They would probably
> > raise a holy howel if they knew what you were doing, but what they 
> don't know won't hurt you.
> >
> I wouldn't know where to start with that. But it doesn't really matter. 

	Briefly, you find an Ethernet hub. Ethernet hubs and
switches look very much alike on the outside but switches create
what amounts to a private connection between every port on the
switch and every other port on the switch or your network. Hubs,
on the other hand are simpler and are like an old-fashioned
telephone party line in that all the data on every port appear
at every other port and your network. You can eavesdrop on the
data coming and going from and two every device on the hub.

	You connect a computer with a sniffer/capture program to
one of the ports on the hub while the device you are spying on
is on another port. The sniffer makes a log of every packet
going through the hub. You are basically tapping your own
network which is perfectly okay. Tapping your neighbor's
network is not okay.

	This brings me to a little warning. If you get your
Ethernet service via cable T.V., the traffic you send and
receive from your house to the big, wide world are put on to a
local area network that covers enough houses and or
apartments/flats to hopefully occupy your segment but not choke
it. A neighbor, with the right capture software and modem can sniff your
traffic and anything not encrypted could be decoded. Secure web
sites are safe because the transaction is scrambled although the
snooper could tell what IP address you visited .

	DSL lines don't have this possibility because the only
interned traffic on your line is yours and nobody else can read
it unless they are tapped in to the backbone of the telephone
exchange and if they are doing that, they probably wear badges.

	Hope you like your new car although you probably would
have preferred getting it in a more orderly manner.

From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 30 19:25:50 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:25:50 -0800
Subject: Study: So people do pay for online content - CNET News
Message-ID: <352BABC8-EF5F-402A-98B9-3583AA0AD26C@gmail.com>

I think the survey was a bit skewed. Only 100 people were asked if they do pay for content on line and of those 1000 people 750 were internet users. read more:   http://bit.ly/eVm3f9

From lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk  Fri Dec 31 01:42:06 2010
From: lynne at tft-bbs.co.uk (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 01:42:06 +0000
Subject: Video Creation Question 
In-Reply-To: <201012301327.oBUDRcun009282@x.it.okstate.edu>
References: <201012301327.oBUDRcun009282@x.it.okstate.edu>
Message-ID: <1D1197C0-47A0-4DFA-BBEF-D1E65EBF1880@tft-bbs.co.uk>

Hello Martin

On 30 Dec 2010, at 13:27, Martin McCormick wrote:

> Congratulations on solving your problem.

I was astounded actually as to how good the quality is. I've also found a DTS decoder at Amazone which, while a little basic, looks more or less perfect.

I forget the model number; although I could look it up. It's a Sony and it contains a video player inbuilt, plus a 20 preset FM tuner. It has an output of 1000 watts across all 5 channels.

On the down side it only has 1 HDMI and 1 digital audio input and output port (1 of each for in and out). But that's no problem as we have a splitter box anyway for HDMI and we can use the digital audio for another player. It comes with a remote control and it uses real buttons rather than a menu to control things. So with practise we think that Gordon could use this.

It's quite ingenious actually because as I understand it it comes with a little microphone type device. When you set the receiver up it automatically calibrates the optimal balance settings depending on where you're located in relation to the 5 satellite speakers. So although that isn't the perfect solution it looks like a workable one for the moment. It retails over here for under 200 Pounds so it's not all that expensive.

Back to the DVD I ripped. I was viewing it last night via our Apple TV on our HD TV set. Although it's only a 26-inch wide screen TV, the quality of the video, after my tweaks was absolutely stunning. The Apple TV uses high definition and as long as your network can handle the throughput it works a treat.

If I decide to go for this encoder I can't wait to find out what the quality is going to be like of the two of them put together.

Lynne