From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 2 14:58:45 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 08:58:45 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards Message-ID: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> Please don't think me rude, but I will go ahead and start the discussion as it is interesting since electric power is something we all use these days. "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" wrote in just-chat: >I think North America is probably unique in as > much as they use 110 volts and I think all the plugs are different. This > is something which I'll open a discussion thread on our sister group, > Techno-Chat, because it interests me actually. That is mostly true but you would be surprised. Electric power in daily use around the world is very similar in the way it is generated and distributed but there are two important parameters along with the type of plugs that can really mess things up if someone gets them wrong. There is the voltage. Most of the world uses 240 volts at your average wall socket. North and Central America, however, usually have 120 volts at ordinary wall outlets. This difference is probably the most striking variation you will find because it has the potential to destroy equipment set for 120 volts if it is accidentally connected to 240 volts. Trust me. Your computer won't run twice as fast on 240 volts with a 120-volt power supply but it may let all the expensive smoke out of that supply. I will now divulge the secret to what makes all electronic equipment work. All electronic components contain smoke in a concentrated solid form. If you do something that lets out the smoke, it quits working. Point proven.:-) The other factor is frequency and it may or may not cause trouble. Think of the frequency as a sort of musical pitch. Musical notes are measured in cycles per second or Hertz. When electric generators spin, they naturally produce alternating current which is electricity that changes polarity at a given frequency. In North and Central America plus a few other spots around the world, the frequency is 60 cycles per second or 60 HZ (Hertz) In the U.K. and a huge portion of the rest of the world, the alternating current power alternates at a 50-HZ frequency. You can actually hear this difference if you know what to listen for. The buzz of electric motors and the hum you hear on some sound recordings that have unfortunately picked up electromagnetic interference from nearby power transformers or other sources is based on the power line frequency in use where the recording was made. The difference between 50 HZ and 60 HZ is about a musical third so you don't have to have perfect pitch but you do need to know what to listen for. The buzz will either be a 50 or 60 Hertz hum or a 100 or 120 HZ note. Why this is true could take me another 500 lines and I am sure you may be bored already. Now for the weird stuff. There are electrical systems around the world that we could call rather odd in that they don't fit either the US-style or European/rest of world style. I ran across a chart on wikipedia showing world electrical power systems in countries by alphabetical order and you wonder why some did what they did. Jamaica which used to be a British colony has 50 HZ power like the U.K. but 120 volts like North America. South Korea has 60 HZ like the United States but 240-volts at your typical wall socket. A person here at OSU who had lived in South Korea told me that the bigger cities like Seoul do have 120-volt sockets like America but in the country, it's just 240-volt service. Saudi Arabia has 60 HZ 240-volt electricity but most other countries around them use either 120 or 240-volt 50 HZ service. As I said earlier, get the voltage wrong and you can burn down your house or at least ruin good equipment. Get the frequency wrong and somethings will not notice at all while older electric clocks, phonographs and tape recorders built for 60 HZ will run too slowly on 50 HZ and 50-HZ equipment will run way too fast on 60 HZ Finally, the United states was a patchwork of 50 HZ and 60 HZ systems during the early part of the 20TH century. The Hoover Dam was designed to produce 50 HZ power but was changed at the last minute to produce 60 HZ. How did they do that? They just ran the turbines at 3600 revolutions per minute rather than 2500 RPM. The engineers decided that the 17% increase in speed wouldn't hurt anything. We actually have 240-volt service to our houses in North America but it is in the form of two 120-volt lines or phases. In our houses and offices, we have large heavy outlets for electric ranges and water heaters that use 240 volts but lighting, entertainment equipment and smaller appliances all use 120 volt lines. It is an interesting topic and there is a lot of history and politics involved. The plugs used in a particular country are more likely to be determined by colonial history, military activities and or regional standards. In some places, the wall sockets may look like they do in North America but I pity the person who plugs in their laptop and fries the power supply because they just hit it with 240 volts instead of 120. From lynne at mac-access.net Wed Feb 2 16:43:32 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:43:32 +0000 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Hello Martin On 2 Feb 2011, at 14:58, Martin McCormick wrote: > ? Please don't think me rude, but I will go ahead and start the discussion as it is interesting since electric power is something we all use these days. That's absolutely no problem; I don't think you rude at all. :) > ? That is mostly true but you would be surprised. Electric > power in daily use around the world is very similar in the way > it is generated and distributed but there are two important > parameters along with the type of plugs that can really mess things > up if someone gets them wrong. > Yes, that's very true. I think you use a different frequency to that which we use as well. We use 50 HZ I think which is 50 cycles per second of AC current. I don't understand all of it but as you know Gordon is a radio amateur like you, and he explained a little of this to me earlier. > ? There is the voltage. Most of the world uses 240 volts at your average wall socket. Not any more, in the case of the European Union. Although it's only a very slight reduction, we now use 230 volts. I gather from Gordon that equipment manufacturers now produce power supplies with a tolerance of 10 volts either way, in order to compensate for the different regions. > ? North and Central America, however, usually have 120 volts at ordinary wall outlets. > Yes, so I gather. Some equipment has voltage selector switches in recesses on the rear or bottom panels so that, if they're exported to the USA the switch is set for your power system. If it's exported to the EU or somewhere else in the world it's set to ours. > ? This difference is probably the most striking variation you will find because it has the potential to destroy equipment set for 120 volts if it is accidentally connected to 240 volts. Trust me. Your computer won't run twice as fast on 240 volts with a 120-volt power supply but it may let all the expensive smoke out of that supply. I will now divulge the secret to what makes all electronic equipment work. All electronic components contain smoke in a concentrated solid form. If you do something that lets out the smoke, it quits working. Point proven.:-) > I'm smiling Martin. But yes, I have seen power supplies of Gordon's explode before now. He once got such a computer system to repair and apparently the owner had been over to the USA so the power supply was switched to 120 volts. Nobody told us, and Gordon plugged it in and turned it on. The explosion was heard about 4 houses away and the big blue flash was like a floodlight. Fortunately we have circuit breakers all over this house, especially in the room where our computers live. They all tripped out and the current was immediately cut off. The outer case was off the computer at the time, which was fortunate. But the power supply exploded with such force that it totally buckled the surrounding mounts and made the entire case useless. It wasn't Gordon's fault; you don't expect that kind of thing. The owner didn't contest that he should have switched it back and the entire computer had to be rebuilt with replacement case and motherboard. So yes, we know only too well what happens if a switch mode power supply like that explodes! > ? The other factor is frequency and it may or may not > cause trouble. Think of the frequency as a sort of musical > pitch. Musical notes are measured in cycles per second or Hertz. > Yes, I think even I can understand that. ;-) > ? When electric generators spin, they naturally produce alternating current which is electricity that changes polarity at a given frequency. In North and Central America plus a few other spots around the world, the frequency is 60 cycles per second or 60 HZ (Hertz) > Yes, I understand that. I did do basic and intermediate physics. > ? In the U.K. and a huge portion of the rest of the world, the alternating current power alternates at a 50-HZ frequency. > That applies across the entire European zone for sure. They are trying to make us change other things as well actually, but I'll explain more about that later. > ? You can actually hear this difference if you know what to listen for. The buzz of electric motors and the hum you hear on some sound recordings that have unfortunately picked up electromagnetic interference from nearby power transformers or other sources is based on the power line frequency in use where the recording was made. The difference between 50 HZ and 60 HZ is about a musical third so you don't have to have perfect pitch > but you do need to know what to listen for. > Yes, I've heard that difference actually on some podcasts we've listened too made by Americans. Gordon noticed it right away actually and, although he has a hearing defect now, he does still have perfect pitch. > ? The buzz will either be a 50 or 60 Hertz hum or a 100 or 120 HZ note. Why this is true could take me another 500 lines and I am sure you may be bored already. > I'm not bored; but you're not telling me anything I didn't already know. :) > ? Now for the weird stuff. There are electrical systems around the world that we could call rather odd in that they don't fit either the US-style or European/rest of world style. > That is something I have never encountered. > ? I ran across a chart on wikipedia showing world electrical power systems in countries by alphabetical order and you wonder why some did what they did. > > ? Jamaica which used to be a British colony has 50 HZ > power like the U.K. but 120 volts like North America. > Right, just to complicate things I guess. :) > ? South Korea has 60 HZ like the United States but 240-volts at your typical wall socket. A person here at OSU who had lived in South Korea told me that the bigger cities like Seoul do have 120-volt sockets like America but in the country, it's just 240-volt service. > That one really is a strange one and I'd imagine it makes life interesting for the consumer moving from place to place. > ? Saudi Arabia has 60 HZ 240-volt electricity but most other countries around them use either 120 or 240-volt 50 HZ service. > Now they're just being bloody difficult! ;-) > ? As I said earlier, get the voltage wrong and you can burn down your house or at least ruin good equipment. Get the frequency wrong and somethings will not notice at all while older electric clocks, phonographs and tape recorders built for 60 HZ will run too slowly on 50 HZ and 50-HZ equipment will run way too fast on 60 HZ > In other words, the HZ really hurts! :) > ? Finally, the United states was a patchwork of 50 HZ and 60 HZ systems during the early part of the 20TH century. The Hoover Dam was designed to produce 50 HZ power but was changed at the last minute to produce 60 HZ. How did they do that? They just ran the turbines at 3600 revolutions per minute rather than 2500 RPM. The engineers decided that the 17% increase in speed wouldn't hurt anything. > But I bet it did hurt it over time. Even somebody with basic physics knowledge understands that if an item is built to handle a given amount of stress, subjecting it to more stress than that amount over a prolonged period of time will inevitably shorten its life span. > ? We actually have 240-volt service to our houses in North America but it is in the form of two 120-volt lines or phases. In our houses and offices, we have large heavy outlets for > electric ranges and water heaters that use 240 volts but lighting, entertainment equipment and smaller appliances all use 120 volt lines. > The burning question here is "Why?" > ? It is an interesting topic and there is a lot of history and politics involved. The plugs used in a particular country are more likely to be determined by colonial history, military > activities and or regional standards. In some places, the wall sockets may look like they do in North America but I pity the person who plugs in their laptop and fries the power supply > because they just hit it with 240 volts instead of 120. This begs the question Martin, what do your plugs and sockets look like? How many pins do they have, and what shape are the pins? Are they fused, or do you rely on fusing within the appliance itself? The UK uses a system of 3 rectangular pins, of which the earth pin is the largest and the thickest. The pins are situated in a triangle, with the earth pin at top centre. The live pin, as it's known, is bottom right and the neutral pin at the bottom left. There is a fuse which goes between the live pin and the point in the plug where the live terminal is located. We have a standard colour code for wiring a plug which all manufacturers must adhere too. In fact, it became law in the early 1990s that all electrical appliances must be supplied by the manufacturer pre-fitted with a suitable plug for use in the United Kingdom. Sometimes, we buy appliances which come with a lead or an adapter which allows interchanging between the UK and European standards; which brings me nicely on to my next point. The rest of the European Union uses a 2-pin type of plug where the pins themselves are rounded. I think they use the case of the plug as an earth connection so, of course, it has to be well insulated. But those plugs are nowhere near as safe as those in the uK are. UK wall sockets have a series of springs which must be depressed by the pins in the plug to close the contact and provide power. You can't reach them with your fingers. But in the European plugs, there is no such safety mechanism and many children have lost their lives in the past few years by handling the plugs wrongly and getting there fingers stuck between the plug and the socket and, subsequently, they were killed because the European plugs contain no fuses and so there was nothing at all to prevent the electricity from passing into the human body which, after all, is made of 98% water and calcium; and there are few better conductors of electricity. The European Union attempted about 5 years ago to force the United Kingdom to adopt their standards of electrical supply terminals. But wisely, in my humble opinion, the government of the day stuck to its guns and steadfastly refused to comply. Not only would it be a potential downgrading of British safety standards, but it would also be totally uneconomical. It would be hugely expensive to change all the terminals in every building, not to mention the connectors on all of our equipment. I sincerely hope that they never agree to comply with the EU on that particular issue. Actually, I believe that it was a huge mistake for the UK to enter the EU at all. But it's here to stay and that's just a fact of life. OK, now who is it that's boring you all to sleep? ;-) Lynne From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 2 17:42:34 2011 From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:42:34 +0000 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: I was always curious though, what are the benefits of running appliances at different voltages and hertz? What was the reason for the UK to go 240 and for the US etc to go 120? Same question applies to Hz. I can understand smaller voltage for smaller appliances, and I guess white goods in the US use 240v? Do the heavy goods have a 3 pin plug too? Otherwise, is it not dangerous to have powerful equipment and for it not to be earthed? I wonder why the UK took the blanket approach for all outlets will be 240v and all have the ability to use earth. More user friendly I guess, and you don't have to think about what plug and what voltage goes where as they are all the same in the UK. You are right, it is a very interesting topic. Tell me more.... Chris On 2 Feb 2011, at 14:58, Martin McCormick wrote: > Please don't think me rude, but I will go ahead and > start the discussion as it is interesting since electric power > is something we all use these days. > "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" wrote in just-chat: >> I think North America is probably unique in as >> much as they use 110 volts and I think all the plugs are different. This >> is something which I'll open a discussion thread on our sister group, >> Techno-Chat, because it interests me actually. > > That is mostly true but you would be surprised. Electric > power in daily use around the world is very similar in the way > it is generated and distributed but there are two important > parameters along with the type of plugs that can really mess things > up if someone gets them wrong. > > There is the voltage. Most of the world uses 240 volts > at your average wall socket. North and Central America, however, > usually have 120 volts at ordinary wall outlets. > > This difference is probably the most striking variation > you will find because it has the potential to destroy equipment > set for 120 volts if it is accidentally connected to 240 volts. > Trust me. Your computer won't run twice as fast on 240 volts > with a 120-volt power supply but it may let all the expensive > smoke out of that supply. I will now divulge the secret to what > makes all electronic equipment work. All electronic components > contain smoke in a concentrated solid form. If you do something > that lets out the smoke, it quits working. Point proven.:-) > > The other factor is frequency and it may or may not > cause trouble. Think of the frequency as a sort of musical > pitch. Musical notes are measured in cycles per second or Hertz. > > When electric generators spin, they naturally produce > alternating current which is electricity that changes polarity > at a given frequency. In North and Central America plus a few > other spots around the world, the frequency is 60 cycles per > second or 60 HZ (Hertz) > > In the U.K. and a huge portion of the rest of the world, > the alternating current power alternates at a 50-HZ frequency. > > You can actually hear this difference if you know what > to listen for. The buzz of electric motors and the hum you hear > on some sound recordings that have unfortunately picked up > electromagnetic interference from nearby power transformers or > other sources is based on the power line frequency in use where > the recording was made. The difference between 50 HZ and 60 HZ > is about a musical third so you don't have to have perfect pitch > but you do need to know what to listen for. > > The buzz will either be a 50 or 60 Hertz hum or a 100 or > 120 HZ note. Why this is true could take me another 500 lines > and I am sure you may be bored already. > > Now for the weird stuff. There are electrical systems > around the world that we could call rather odd in that they > don't fit either the US-style or European/rest of world style. > > I ran across a chart on wikipedia showing world > electrical power systems in countries by alphabetical order and > you wonder why some did what they did. > > Jamaica which used to be a British colony has 50 HZ > power like the U.K. but 120 volts like North America. > > South Korea has 60 HZ like the United States but > 240-volts at your typical wall socket. A person here at OSU who > had lived in South Korea told me that the bigger cities like > Seoul do have 120-volt sockets like America but in the country, > it's just 240-volt service. > > Saudi Arabia has 60 HZ 240-volt electricity but most > other countries around them use either 120 or 240-volt 50 HZ > service. > > As I said earlier, get the voltage wrong and you can > burn down your house or at least ruin good equipment. Get the > frequency wrong and somethings will not notice at all while > older electric clocks, phonographs and tape recorders built for > 60 HZ will run too slowly on 50 HZ and 50-HZ equipment will run > way too fast on 60 HZ > > Finally, the United states was a patchwork of 50 HZ and > 60 HZ systems during the early part of the 20TH century. The > Hoover Dam was designed to produce 50 HZ power but was changed > at the last minute to produce 60 HZ. How did they do that? They > just ran the turbines at 3600 revolutions per minute rather than > 2500 RPM. The engineers decided that the 17% increase in speed > wouldn't hurt anything. > > We actually have 240-volt service to our houses in North > America but it is in the form of two 120-volt lines or phases. > In our houses and offices, we have large heavy outlets for > electric ranges and water heaters that use 240 volts but > lighting, entertainment equipment and smaller appliances all use > 120 volt lines. > > It is an interesting topic and there is a lot of history > and politics involved. The plugs used in a particular country > are more likely to be determined by colonial history, military > activities and or regional standards. In some places, the wall > sockets may look like they do in North America but I pity the > person who plugs in their laptop and fries the power supply > because they just hit it with 240 volts instead of 120. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk Wed Feb 2 19:15:55 2011 From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:15:55 +0000 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: References: <201102021458.p12Ewjq0061014@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <2FAF25B0-058D-49C8-AEA3-271C0A6C9BB3@tft-bbs.co.uk> Hi Chris In the fifties and early sixties, (and probably earlier than that), the plug sockets in the UK took a round-pinned plug. It was still fused at 13 amps, but as I say the pins were rounded rather than the rectangular ones we know today. I remember the transition actually when I was very young. We had to have all our buildings re-fitted as the electrical wiring all had to be changed. There's far more to it though than just the voltage and the frequency. You also have to take into account the current that a device uses on full load at a given voltage. All this comes into play when we're talking about energy efficiency. As to why the various decisions were made, I honestly don't know. But what I can tell you, and it's not just me saying so, is that the UK has one of, if not the most safe household electrical supply chains in the world. Believe it or believe it not Chris, some countries use unfused plugs. As I'm sure you know, you can buy fuses over here for plugs rated at different current levels and it's important to observe these things when wiring a plug for a specific device. For instance, your average portable radio, CD player, hi-fi devices will, in general, require a 3-amp fuse. Whereas something like a washing machine, a tumble drier, a fridge freezer, a kettle or an iron will generally need a 13-amp fuse. Most modern LCD televisions are also fused at 3 amps, believe it or not. I can't speak for other countries using different voltages, but that's how it is here in the UK. In the case of a computer and Internet system, I would personally always recommend that the user install a UPS, (uninterruptable power supply) between the devices and the AC supply itself. That's because sometimes, you get what are knows as spikes on the mains supply rail which can, in worst case scenario, do damage or even destroy a piece of sensitive CMOS equipment such as a PC or other digital device. Usually devices like that use what are known as step-down transformers. They take an AC input and step it down while also changing the AC to DC, which most small devices use. You're right, it's an interesting topic and it's very easy, as I've just proven, to start talking about different, though related subjects. Gordon On 2 Feb 2011, at 17:42, Chris Moore wrote: > I was always curious though, what are the benefits of running appliances at different voltages and hertz? What was the reason for the UK to go 240 and for the US etc to go 120? Same question applies to Hz. I can understand smaller voltage for smaller appliances, and I guess white goods in the US use 240v? Do the heavy goods have a 3 pin plug too? Otherwise, is it not dangerous to have powerful equipment and for it not to be earthed? I wonder why the UK took the blanket approach for all outlets will be 240v and all have the ability to use earth. More user friendly I guess, and you don't have to think about what plug and what voltage goes where as they are all the same in the UK. > > You are right, it is a very interesting topic. > > Tell me more.... From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Thu Feb 3 02:19:07 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 20:19:07 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards Message-ID: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes: > Not any more, in the case of the European Union. Although it's only a > very slight reduction, we now use 230 volts. I gather from Gordon that > equipment manufacturers now produce power supplies with a tolerance of 10 > volts either way, in order to compensate for the different regions. There have been slight variations here over the years similar to what you describe. It used to be that 110 to 115 volts was the norm but it has crept up slightly over the decades until it is fairly common to see 120 to 125 volts at a wall outlet or 240 to 250 volts across both phases. > > ? North and Central America, however, usually have 120 volts at > ordinary wall outlets. > > > Yes, so I gather. Some equipment has voltage selector switches in > recesses on the rear or bottom panels so that, if they're exported to the > USA the switch is set for your power system. If it's exported to the EU > or somewhere else in the world it's set to ours. Some devices now autoselect and there are some switching power supplies that can really take any voltage between about 100 volts up to 260 or so volts. They just self-regulate so that the mother board or entertainment device sees what it should see no matter what sort of electrical garbage is on the line side of things within reason. > I'm smiling Martin. But yes, I have seen power supplies of Gordon's > explode before now. He once got such a computer system to repair and > apparently the owner had been over to the USA so the power supply was > switched to 120 volts. Nobody told us, and Gordon plugged it in and > turned it on. The explosion was heard about 4 houses away and the big > blue flash was like a floodlight. OUCH! > Fortunately we have circuit breakers all over this house, especially in > the room where our computers live. They all tripped out and the current > was immediately cut off. The outer case was off the computer at the time, > which was fortunate. But the power supply exploded with such force that > it totally buckled the surrounding mounts and made the entire case > useless. It sounds like there was no fuse at all in the computer power supply to do all that damage. I can understand the power supply being damaged/destroyed, but a proper internal fuse should have limited the failure to a slight pop and what we sometimes refer to as "money-colored smoke." On the frequency issue, you say: > In other words, the HZ really hurts! :) The problems come in waves. > This begs the question Martin, what do your plugs and sockets look like? > How many pins do they have, and what shape are the pins? Are they fused, > or do you rely on fusing within the appliance itself? The easiest thing to describe is our standard electrical outlet in to which one might plug anything from a coffee maker to a computer or television set. If you are looking at it and it is properly installed, you see two vertical slits side by side and a round hole below those slits which is about half the diameter of the body of a standard pencil, maybe more like the lead of a standard pencil. Look a little closer and you notice the left slit is slightly wider. This is the neutral lead. The right slit is connected to the 120-volt power. The round hole is the Earth connection and is connected to neutral at the power pannel, not the outlet itself. There are no fuses required in the actual outlet but some outlets have a special mechanism called a GFCI or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. You probably have those in the U.K also designed, of course, for your plugs and the 240-volt service. GFCI's are most commonly used in bathrooms and out of doors where electricity may cross paths with water. A person in the bathroom might drop a hair drier in to a sink full of water and impulsively try to fish it out. Ouch! again or worse. With a GFCI, a circuit breaker on the outlet pops out and kills power if current flow is detected between Hot and Earth rather than Hot and Neutral which is what is supposed to happen. The law now requires GFCI's on all new installations of outlets in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoor sockets. They generally work pretty well but sometimes, they get tripped by accident. You don't want them on circuits that have refrigerators or freezers for that reason. If you drew a circle around the face of a standard electrical socket, you would hit the Hot narrow slit, the Earth round hole, and then the Neutral wider slit. The male plugs have several variations which can be maddening at times. The pins fit the slits and Earth connection so you see two flat pins and a round prong below and between the two flats. Remember the left slit is wider? That's where the fun begins. Many plugs do not have the Earth connection but just have the two flat pins. That is kind of like the EU plugs you described. You can contact live pins if your hand slips while inserting a plug and children do get killed this way from time to time. Certain electronic equipment such as television sets have what are called polarized plugs in that they only fit in to the socket one way. If it is a 3-prong Earthed plug, that takes care of the polarization, but if the plug only has the two pins, the Neutral pin is wider, keeping you from inserting it wrongly. Older outlets which can be found in ancient houses may not have the Neutral slit wider so a polarized plug may not fit either way. When one is hooking things in to an outlet strip, sometimes the strip does not have polarized plugs and you're stuck up the creek without a paddle unless you find a proper polarized strip. Some standard outlets also have a Neutral with a slot that looks like a T turned to the right. They will take a regular polarized plug or a slightly heavier plug for more amperage. The plugs for 240-volt service are specialized like you wouldn't believe. 240-volt outlets and their plugs are made for electric ranges and air conditioners. Others are made for clothes driers or other specialized uses. These plugs have a minimum of 3 pins. They are Phase 1 or A at 120-volts, Phase B at 120-volts and common such that 240-volts appears across Phase A and B. Gordon and others who know about this will recognize this configuration as a center-tapped transformer output. Still other 240-volt plugs have an Earth connection for added safety. That's all I know about our 240-volt plugs. some of the different types and pin shapes are historical. If you had hooked up an air conditioner or heater in 1968, you might have used a different plug and socket than you use today. Finally, I remember reading that there is a special low-amperage plug in the U.K. called a clock plug. It is held in place by a screw so that someone can not unplug it accidentally to use the outlet for something else. I thought that was a clever idea and I am not sure if we have anything similar here, but it wouldn't be much of a leap to do that. There might, however, be a safety issue that might violate the electrical code if there is a plug one can't just yank out if something goes wrong. Thanks for the description of the U.K. plugs. They sure sound a lot safer than the EU plugs they are trying to ram down your throats. By the way, I once saw an Australian power plug on a television set made for that market. The plug looked much like an American plug except that the two pins are turned at 45 degree angles such that they make a V or maybe an inverted V depending on how sockets are mounted in Australia. This has the same hazard as the EU plugs and our plugs in that somebody can accidentally let their fingers slip on to the live pins if the plug is partly in. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Thu Feb 3 03:11:29 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 21:11:29 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards More Weirdness Message-ID: <201102030311.p133BTQ7064967@x.it.okstate.edu> I'll keep this one short. The Eastern United States had the first electrical power systems which means we had some really different setups than today. Thomas Edison loved DC or direct current so his first power companies delivered DC to your house or business. DC is better for running large motores such as industrial machines and elevators. For incandescent lighting, it is about as good as AC or alternating current and it goes farther down the wire without fading out than does AC but you can not easily step up or step down the voltage which is why Edison eventually lost the war he started with people like Westinghouse and Tesla who promoted AC in their competing power companies. Some big cities such as New York City or Boston actually had DC service well in to the twentieth century which meant that sometimes, somebody would burn something up that had a transformer or AC motor of a certain type in it. Certain radios had a cheap design using a half-wave rectifier that would work on DC service if the plug was inserted the right way. Turn the plug the wrong way and the tubes or valves would light up but nothing else would happen. The first hydroelectric plant in the US was at Niagara Falls and it produced loads of power for the area around Niagara Falls but the frequency was 20 or 25 HZ. This was good for big motors and bad for lighting because people could see the flicker in the lamps. Nobody does that any more. A few other cities including Oklahoma City provided DC to industrial customers in to the seventies or later, but refused to add any new ones and I think by now, they have discontinued this service and made their customers make their own DC. Finally, I ran across the web site for the Pasadena, California Power and Light company. They had a history page so I read it and they began producing 50 HZ 110-volt electricity in 1910. If you used their electricity, you only got it between Sundown and Sunrise. They used the day for maintenance of the steam engines and generators. Why make electricity in the day with it is light? That was a different world, then. From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 05:27:56 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 21:27:56 -0800 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards More Weirdness In-Reply-To: <201102030311.p133BTQ7064967@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102030311.p133BTQ7064967@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <9D3EB349-1C41-4625-937A-881DD4EA0546@gmail.com> Oh wow! Interesting. Now if only we could turn off the lights durng the day but I use power for my computers, my rola den and more. lol! On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:11 PM, Martin McCormick wrote: > I'll keep this one short. > The Eastern United States had the first electrical power systems > which means we had some really different setups than today. > Thomas Edison loved DC or direct current so his first power > companies delivered DC to your house or business. DC is better > for running large motores such as industrial machines and > elevators. For incandescent lighting, it is about as good as AC > or alternating current and it goes farther down the wire without > fading out than does AC but you can not easily step up or step > down the voltage which is why Edison eventually lost the war he > started with people like Westinghouse and Tesla who promoted AC > in their competing power companies. > > Some big cities such as New York City or Boston actually > had DC service well in to the twentieth century which meant that > sometimes, somebody would burn something up that had a > transformer or AC motor of a certain type in it. Certain radios > had a cheap design using a half-wave rectifier that would work > on DC service if the plug was inserted the right way. Turn the > plug the wrong way and the tubes or valves would light up but > nothing else would happen. > > The first hydroelectric plant in the US was at Niagara > Falls and it produced loads of power for the area around Niagara > Falls but the frequency was 20 or 25 HZ. This was good for big > motors and bad for lighting because people could see the flicker > in the lamps. Nobody does that any more. > > A few other cities including Oklahoma City provided DC > to industrial customers in to the seventies or later, but > refused to add any new ones and I think by now, they have > discontinued this service and made their customers make their > own DC. > > Finally, I ran across the web site for the Pasadena, > California Power and Light company. They had a history page so I > read it and they began producing 50 HZ 110-volt electricity in > 1910. If you used their electricity, you only got it between > Sundown and Sunrise. They used the day for maintenance of the > steam engines and generators. Why make electricity in the day > with it is light? That was a different world, then. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 05:31:55 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 21:31:55 -0800 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Yeah and I've been damaged by 120 volts. i didn't realise that such current could throw me across a room! Ouch! On Feb 2, 2011, at 6:19 PM, Martin McCormick wrote: > "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes: > >> Not any more, in the case of the European Union. Although it's only a >> very slight reduction, we now use 230 volts. I gather from Gordon that >> equipment manufacturers now produce power supplies with a tolerance of 10 >> volts either way, in order to compensate for the different regions. > > There have been slight variations here over the years > similar to what you describe. It used to be that 110 to 115 > volts was the norm but it has crept up slightly over the decades > until it is fairly common to see 120 to 125 volts at a wall > outlet or 240 to 250 volts across both phases. > >>> ? North and Central America, however, usually have 120 volts at >> ordinary wall outlets. >>> >> Yes, so I gather. Some equipment has voltage selector switches in >> recesses on the rear or bottom panels so that, if they're exported to the >> USA the switch is set for your power system. If it's exported to the EU >> or somewhere else in the world it's set to ours. > > Some devices now autoselect and there are some switching > power supplies that can really take any voltage between about > 100 volts up to 260 or so volts. They just self-regulate so that > the mother board or entertainment device sees what it should see > no matter what sort of electrical garbage is on the line side of > things within reason. > >> I'm smiling Martin. But yes, I have seen power supplies of Gordon's >> explode before now. He once got such a computer system to repair and >> apparently the owner had been over to the USA so the power supply was >> switched to 120 volts. Nobody told us, and Gordon plugged it in and >> turned it on. The explosion was heard about 4 houses away and the big >> blue flash was like a floodlight. > > OUCH! > >> Fortunately we have circuit breakers all over this house, especially in >> the room where our computers live. They all tripped out and the current >> was immediately cut off. The outer case was off the computer at the time, >> which was fortunate. But the power supply exploded with such force that >> it totally buckled the surrounding mounts and made the entire case >> useless. > > It sounds like there was no fuse at all in the > computer power supply to do all that damage. I can understand > the power supply being damaged/destroyed, but a proper internal > fuse should have limited the failure to a slight pop and what we > sometimes refer to as "money-colored smoke." > > On the frequency issue, you say: > >> In other words, the HZ really hurts! :) > > The problems come in waves. > >> This begs the question Martin, what do your plugs and sockets look like? >> How many pins do they have, and what shape are the pins? Are they fused, >> or do you rely on fusing within the appliance itself? > > The easiest thing to describe is our standard electrical > outlet in to which one might plug anything from a coffee maker > to a computer or television set. > > If you are looking at it and it is properly installed, > you see two vertical slits side by side and a round hole below > those slits which is about half the diameter of the body of a > standard pencil, maybe more like the lead of a standard pencil. > > Look a little closer and you notice the left slit is > slightly wider. This is the neutral lead. The right slit is > connected to the 120-volt power. > > The round hole is the Earth connection and is connected > to neutral at the power pannel, not the outlet itself. There are > no fuses required in the actual outlet but some outlets have a > special mechanism called a GFCI or Ground Fault Circuit > Interrupter. You probably have those in the U.K also designed, > of course, for your plugs and the 240-volt service. GFCI's are > most commonly used in bathrooms and out of doors where > electricity may cross paths with water. A person in the bathroom > might drop a hair drier in to a sink full of water and > impulsively try to fish it out. Ouch! again or worse. With a > GFCI, a circuit breaker on the outlet pops out and kills power > if current flow is detected between Hot and Earth rather than > Hot and Neutral which is what is supposed to happen. > > The law now requires GFCI's on all new installations of > outlets in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoor sockets. > > They generally work pretty well but sometimes, they get > tripped by accident. You don't want them on circuits that have > refrigerators or freezers for that reason. > > If you drew a circle around the face of a standard > electrical socket, you would hit the Hot narrow slit, the Earth > round hole, and then the Neutral wider slit. > > The male plugs have several variations which can be > maddening at times. The pins fit the slits and Earth connection > so you see two flat pins and a round prong below and between the > two flats. Remember the left slit is wider? That's where the fun > begins. Many plugs do not have the Earth connection but just > have the two flat pins. That is kind of like the EU plugs you > described. You can contact live pins if your hand slips while > inserting a plug and children do get killed this way from time > to time. Certain electronic equipment such as television sets > have what are called polarized plugs in that they only fit in to > the socket one way. If it is a 3-prong Earthed plug, that takes > care of the polarization, but if the plug only has the two pins, > the Neutral pin is wider, keeping you from inserting it wrongly. > > Older outlets which can be found in ancient houses may > not have the Neutral slit wider so a polarized plug may not fit > either way. When one is hooking things in to an outlet strip, > sometimes the strip does not have polarized plugs and you're > stuck up the creek without a paddle unless you find a proper > polarized strip. > > Some standard outlets also have a Neutral with a slot > that looks like a T turned to the right. They will take a > regular polarized plug or a slightly heavier plug for more > amperage. > > The plugs for 240-volt service are specialized like you > wouldn't believe. 240-volt outlets and their plugs are made for > electric ranges and air conditioners. Others are made for > clothes driers or other specialized uses. These plugs have a > minimum of 3 pins. They are Phase 1 or A at 120-volts, Phase B > at 120-volts and common such that 240-volts appears across Phase > A and B. Gordon and others who know about this will recognize > this configuration as a center-tapped transformer output. > > Still other 240-volt plugs have an Earth connection for > added safety. > > That's all I know about our 240-volt plugs. some of the > different types and pin shapes are historical. If you had hooked > up an air conditioner or heater in 1968, you might have used a > different plug and socket than you use today. > > Finally, I remember reading that there is a special > low-amperage plug in the U.K. called a clock plug. It is held in > place by a screw so that someone can not unplug it accidentally > to use the outlet for something else. I thought that was a > clever idea and I am not sure if we have anything similar here, > but it wouldn't be much of a leap to do that. There might, > however, be a safety issue that might violate the electrical > code if there is a plug one can't just yank out if something > goes wrong. > > Thanks for the description of the U.K. plugs. They sure > sound a lot safer than the EU plugs they are trying to ram down > your throats. > > By the way, I once saw an Australian power plug on a > television set made for that market. The plug looked much like > an American plug except that the two pins are turned at 45 > degree angles such that they make a V or maybe an inverted V > depending on how sockets are mounted in Australia. This has the > same hazard as the EU plugs and our plugs in that somebody can > accidentally let their fingers slip on to the live pins if the > plug is partly in. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net Sat Feb 5 09:40:52 2011 From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net (Gordon & Lynne Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 09:40:52 +0000 Subject: bank Message-ID: There is an application for Mac OS X with we are trailing at the moment called iBank. It enables you to handle personal finances via a central database, and to have all of your accounts, including credit cards, savings and current accounts, available right in front of you; even when the bank you use has a website. The software supports thousands of international banking institutions, and uses special URLs (like QuickM) to gather your data. I just mention it here because I iknow that a lot of members use Windows and I wondered whether there might be a Windows version of this application. Under OSX its accessibility is excellent and hopefully, if there is a Windows version, it will be the same. It might be a cheaper alternative to some of the more well-known and expensive finance solutions. As I said, I don't know whether there is a Winows version or not. But the Mac version is at Lynne _______________________________________ Gordon & Lynne Smith; gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 Fax: +44--1642-365-123 We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 5 10:43:48 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 21:43:48 +1100 Subject: bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462AF92D-7048-4AB2-9A62-10FFB822018B@internode.on.net> Okay I've just downloaded this package and taken a quick look and the first question, could it benefit a persons such as myself who is not in business? I have to say that it looks extremely comprehensive for financial management tasks if nothing else. On 05/02/2011, at 8:40 PM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote: > There is an application for Mac OS X with we are trailing at the moment called iBank. It enables you to handle personal finances via a central database, and to have all of your accounts, including credit cards, savings and current accounts, available right in front of you; even when the bank you use has a website. > > The software supports thousands of international banking institutions, and uses special URLs (like QuickM) to gather your data. > > I just mention it here because I iknow that a lot of members use Windows and I wondered whether there might be a Windows version of this application. > > Under OSX its accessibility is excellent and hopefully, if there is a Windows version, it will be the same. > > It might be a cheaper alternative to some of the more well-known and expensive finance solutions. > > As I said, I don't know whether there is a Winows version or not. But the Mac version is at > > Lynne > > > > _______________________________________ > > Gordon & Lynne Smith; > gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net > > VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET > MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 > Fax: +44--1642-365-123 > > We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! > > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sat Feb 5 13:22:56 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 07:22:56 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards Message-ID: <201102051322.p15DMuU1082533@x.it.okstate.edu> You are lucky that is all it did. People are electrocuted by 120 volts just as easily as with 240 volts. Yes, 240 volts is technically more dangerous, but it's like being hit by a truck going at 50 miles per hour versus one that is going 90. The shock may cause one's heart to stop beating properly and go in to what is called fibrillation where it just quivers uselessly and can't get it's natural rhythm back. Ironically, deffibrolators such as are used by hospitals and para-medics do precisely the same thing to your heart but in a controlled manner and occasionally, it works to get the normal heartbeat restored. Most electrocutions, however, are really electrically-induced heart attacks. If not for that, the victim would have survived because 120/240 volts applied briefly doesn't destroy tissue. It sure feels like being hit by a hammer, though and people have been hurt by all the involuntary muscle activity caused by getting a shock. We had a neighbor, once, who was very intelligent, but accident-prone. He was helping a friend do something electrical and somehow, he stripped a wire that was live. The utility knife had a metal handle on it and when it contacted the live conductor, his arm pulled in toward his body and he threw the knife across the room where it landed between his friend's ribs. Since it was a utility knife, the blade only embedded maybe an inch or less and both men survived. I have no idea how long it was before they spoke to each other again. Sarah Alawami writes: > Yeah and I've been damaged by 120 volts. i didn't realise that such > current could throw me across a room! Ouch! From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sat Feb 5 13:55:27 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 07:55:27 -0600 Subject: Is AC or DC More Dangerous? Message-ID: <201102051355.p15DtRV3082668@x.it.okstate.edu> I thought I'd share some more history after talking about electric shocks. Back during the late 1800's and early 1900's when Thomas Edison was fighting with the proponents of alternating current power distribution, the topic of safety became one of the casualties of the battle. Edison went so far as to setup a sort of traveling show which he took to fairs and other public events in which he demonstrated the danger of alternating current as opposed to his safer direct current. He would fire up an AC generator and then proceed to electrocute some poor farm animal such as a cow or donkey with the idea that this could happen to you if you choose a competitor's dangerous alternating current system. His sales pitch was convincing enough that the state of New York ordered a shiny new electric chair powered by alternating current to enter the modern age of executing criminals by electrocution. Our National Institute of Standards and Technology which used to be called the National Bureau of Standards, actually once did scientific tests to see which was most dangerous. The tests were done on anesthetized rats or rabbits and they were mostly inconclusive but seemed to indicate that alternating current at 50-60 HZ is a little more likely to disrupt a beating heart than is DC, but not enough to change our whole electrical system due to safety concerns. From moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Feb 5 18:53:37 2011 From: moore.c at blueyonder.co.uk (Chris Moore) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 18:53:37 +0000 Subject: Is AC or DC More Dangerous? In-Reply-To: <201102051355.p15DtRV3082668@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102051355.p15DtRV3082668@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <4FA57BFA-9DB3-4612-8781-45AB39D637A2@blueyonder.co.uk> What about wattage and amps? Someone said to me once, its not the voltage you need to worry about, it is the amps. Care to comment? Loving this electricity geeky stuff :) I just love to know how stuff works. On 5 Feb 2011, at 13:55, Martin McCormick wrote: > I thought I'd share some more history after talking > about electric shocks. > > Back during the late 1800's and early 1900's when Thomas > Edison was fighting with the proponents of alternating current > power distribution, the topic of safety became one of the > casualties of the battle. Edison went so far as to setup a sort > of traveling show which he took to fairs and other public events > in which he demonstrated the danger of alternating current as > opposed to his safer direct current. > > He would fire up an AC generator and then proceed to > electrocute some poor farm animal such as a cow or donkey with > the idea that this could happen to you if you choose a > competitor's dangerous alternating current system. > > His sales pitch was convincing enough that the state of > New York ordered a shiny new electric chair powered by > alternating current to enter the modern age of executing > criminals by electrocution. > > Our National Institute of Standards and Technology which > used to be called the National Bureau of Standards, actually > once did scientific tests to see which was most dangerous. The > tests were done on anesthetized rats or rabbits and they were mostly > inconclusive but seemed to indicate that alternating current at > 50-60 HZ is a little more likely to disrupt a beating heart than > is DC, but not enough to change our whole electrical system due > to safety concerns. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From tsiegel at softcon.com Sun Feb 6 01:35:37 2011 From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 19:35:37 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards More Weirdness In-Reply-To: <201102030311.p133BTQ7064967@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102030311.p133BTQ7064967@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <4C21CB25-900F-4787-9BC2-7A4A5CD28472@softcon.com> I'm not sure I agree with your statement that dc travels farther than ac without needing renewing. When Edison first proposed a national power grid, the issue that caused folks to propose switching to Ac, was the fact that if dc was used, you would need power plants every few miles, since dc didn't travel as far as ac does. That more than anything else was why ac won the war over what kind of power would be piped through the electric grid. On the other hand, I had no idea that some plants were still providing dc power well into the 70s. That's an interesting tidbit of info. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sun Feb 6 03:56:33 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 21:56:33 -0600 Subject: Is AC or DC More Dangerous? Message-ID: <201102060356.p163uXeX085829@x.it.okstate.edu> You asked a really good question that is not terribly easy to answer quickly. When electricity is available, the charge has a certain amount of potential energy which we measure in volts. If the electricity is doing something such as light a lamp or heat some water, current flows. Current is measured in amperes and is also called electromotive force. So we have volts and amperes but there is one more thing before I can answer the question. Some substances like copper and silver conduct electricity very well. They are called conductors. Other substances like glass, air and dry paper, don't normally conduct at all and we call those insulators. Still other items like our own bodies, certain metals and thousands of other materials allow current to flow but partly resist the flow and we call these things resistive substances or resistors. We even have a unit of measurement called the ohm which indicates how well or poorly electricity flows through this substance If we connect a resistive material to a power source, current flows of a certain number of amperes and the resistor gets warm, hot or even bursts in to flame depending upon how much current is flowing through it. Electrical energy is measured in watts. A good conductor connected across a voltage will pull lots of current if available and get very hot and that is how a standard incandescent light bulb or the element in a cook stove works. There is a formula called Ohm's law that relates volts, ohms and amps and allows us to know how much current a given circuit will draw if we know two of the three variables. Sorry to get so deep, but you asked and now, for the answer. Our skin is actually rather high in resistance when it is dry and not cut or damaged. When we are in water or sweat due to heat, the resistance of our skin drops and we conduct much better. Anyway, if we are dry, we can touch a car battery terminals with our fingers and feel nothing. If we were to accidentally contact a 120, 240 or higher voltage power source, we conduct well enough to draw enough current through our bodies to possibly effect our heart. Since the resistance of our skin drops when wet, we are more likely to receive a lethal shock given the same voltage because we will draw more current and possibly stop or disrupt the heart. Those ground fault circuit interrupter outlets that are supposed to shut down if we accidentally contact the live or hot wire and Earth are designed to trip if we draw more than 4-1-thousandths of an amp because that is considered the amount of current that it might take to cause a heart fibrilation. Chris Moore writes: > What about wattage and amps? Someone said to me once, its not the voltage > you need to worry about, it is the amps. Care to comment? Loving this > electricity geeky stuff :) I just love to know how stuff works. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sun Feb 6 04:06:11 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 22:06:11 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards More Weirdness Message-ID: <201102060406.p1646B1p085887@x.it.okstate.edu> Here is why DC travels farther. There is no inductive reactance so the only reason for the power to be renewed is the resistance of the wire. Would you believe that they are actually building DC megavolt lines in parts of the United States in which they must ship power great distances? What they will do is convert it back to AC when it gets where it is going and put it back on the grid as AC. I think there is one such line along the West Coast of the United states with others in the planning stages. Travis Siegel writes: > I'm not sure I agree with your statement that dc travels farther than ac > without needing renewing. When Edison first proposed a national power > grid, > the issue that caused folks to propose switching to Ac, was the fact that > if dc was used, you would need power plants every few miles, since dc > didn't travel as far as ac does. That more than anything else was why ac > won the war over what kind of power would be piped through the electric > grid. On the other hand, I had no idea that some plants were still > providing dc power well into the 70s. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sun Feb 6 14:15:25 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:15:25 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards More Weirdness Message-ID: <201102061415.p16EFPWG088476@x.it.okstate.edu> On the topic of how far one can be away from a power plant, I need to explain one more thing which seems, on the surface, to contradict the thing about DC traveling farther. Forgive me for another long explanation, but it should help you to understand how remarkable the power systems are in the developed world because professional engineers and technicians deal with and mostly solve these problems every day. If you have ever noticed that the power cord to an electric cook stove is big and heavy while the power cord to an electric raiser or small clock radio is fine and light by comparison, you are at least aware that there must be some reason for this. The reason is that even the highest grade of pure copper wire still has some native electrical resistance in it. You have heard that resistance is futile. In the power world, resistance is pure evil. You could have the biggest power plant in the galaxy and just one inch of copper wire between that generator plant and the rest of the galaxy instantly limits how much power we can actually deliver. Resistance limits the amount of current we can deliver but it does not directly drop the voltage we have available. The voltage drops when we turn on some lights and maybe the stove to cook a meal. This has been the bain of power companies and electrical engineers since before Thomas Edison. What happens is that your lights are fine until you turn on something big like an air conditioning unit or electric stove. The lights dim and any big motors such as the air conditioning compressor have trouble starting properly. If the wiring in the neighborhood is too small, then your neighbor's big heater or stove will dim your lights, also. Here's what they do to fix that. First, it is expensive. The engineers get the biggest heaviest power lines they can afford. You will help pay for this in your electric bills so the consumer does end up paying for all those goodies we must have. Remember that I said that the resistance does not directly drop the voltage? Well, the practice all over the world is to use extremely high voltages to distribute power such as hundreds of thousands and even millions of volts. When this is done, the wires don't carry as many amperes but they carry lots of volts. This makes the resistance of the wires less of a factor. Let me briefly explain this. A 100 watt light bulb in the United states draws about 1 ampere at 120 volts. In England, a 100 watt light bulb is the same brightness as its Yanky cousin, but it only draws half an amp at 240 volts. Both bulbs use the same amount of power and shine with the same light, but one has twice the amperage and half the voltage as the other. They should both cost the same to run but the higher-voltage bulb could, in theory, have a smaller power cord. In practice, it hardly matters. When you are running whole cities, it matters a lot. Our town of Stillwater has a 137-thousand-volt feeder coming in to it from a larger power system that covers hundreds of miles. Each house, here, has a feed at 240 volts capable of up to 200 amperes. At 137-thousand volts, each house could pull about an amp which is a lot easier to handle. Now, if you're still with me, AC versus DC. It is trivial to convert AC power from lower voltages to higher voltages by using power transformers. You feed the high voltage in one side of the transformer and get a lower voltage out the other side. There is no trivial way at all to step DC up to a higher voltage and no efficient and safe way to step it down on a massive scale. Both AC and DC are equally effected by the resistance of the power cables but there is one additional factor. It is called inductive reactance and is an electromagnetic phenomenon associated with alternating current. It adds even more resistance to a given length of wire. If all other things were equal, AC really would die out sooner between power plants, but the ability to step it up to high voltages for transport means that we appear to make it go further and it actually works. Our huge transmission and distribution lines are often-times made of aluminum because aluminum is cheaper than copper and, when properly terminated, aluminum wires are almost as efficient. As time passes, whole countries and continents may start buying and selling electric power with each other. The distribution systems will probably have huge aluminum undersea cables and millions or billions of volts DC as that would be the most efficient way to transport large amounts of power the longest distances. Just watch where you drop anchor if you are at sea. From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 6 16:52:45 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:52:45 +0000 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Hello Martin & all On 3 Feb 2011, at 02:19, Martin McCormick wrote: > ? There have been slight variations here over the years similar to what you describe. It used to be that 110 to 115 volts was the norm but it has crept up slightly over the decades > until it is fairly common to see 120 to 125 volts at a wall outlet or 240 to 250 volts across both phases. > Seems a complicated arrangement. > ? Some devices now autoselect and there are some switching power supplies that can really take any voltage between about 100 volts up to 260 or so volts. They just self-regulate so that > the mother board or entertainment device sees what it should see no matter what sort of electrical garbage is on the line side of things within reason. > That's surely the way it should be; as it then creates the minimal inconvenience to both consumers and manufacturers alike. > > ? It sounds like there was no fuse at all in the computer power supply to do all that damage. I can understand the power supply being damaged/destroyed, but a proper internal > fuse should have limited the failure to a slight pop and what we sometimes refer to as "money-colored smoke." > That's more or less what Gordon said. Plugs over here have fuses in them which carry different ratings. Gordon always uses his own power cables when working on foreign computer systems, and that was the case here. The plug was fused for 3 amps @ 230V AC. The fuse did blow, but still we got all that damage. That's what we couldn't understand at the time. > ? The easiest thing to describe is our standard electrical outlet in to which one might plug anything from a coffee maker to a computer or television set. > > ? If you are looking at it and it is properly installed, you see two vertical slits side by side and a round hole below those slits which is about half the diameter of the body of a standard pencil, maybe more like the lead of a standard pencil. > > ? Look a little closer and you notice the left slit is slightly wider. This is the neutral lead. The right slit is connected to the 120-volt power. > > ? The round hole is the Earth connection and is connected to neutral at the power pannel, not the outlet itself. There are no fuses required in the actual outlet but some outlets have a special mechanism called a GFCI or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. You probably have those in the U.K also designed, of course, for your plugs and the 240-volt service. GFCI's are > most commonly used in bathrooms and out of doors where electricity may cross paths with water. A person in the bathroom might drop a hair drier in to a sink full of water and > impulsively try to fish it out. Ouch! again or worse. With a GFCI, a circuit breaker on the outlet pops out and kills power if current flow is detected between Hot and Earth rather than > Hot and Neutral which is what is supposed to happen. > I still can't quite picture that I'm afraid. But it's definitely very different to our system. > ? The law now requires GFCI's on all new installations of outlets in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoor sockets. > So it should! > ? They generally work pretty well but sometimes, they get tripped by accident. You don't want them on circuits that have refrigerators or freezers for that reason. > Fair comment; but there are times when even appliances such as fridges and freezers can malfunction. I can only speak for our house; but we have circuit breakers all over the property. They have never tripped out in the kitchen, not while I've been here anyway. But they are there for the sake of safety. They're not quite the same type of design as you're describing. But they trip if there is a short circuit, an overload on the socket so that, for instance, if something shorts and starts to pull too much current, the circuit trips out. Gordon is telling me that when the current rises above a certain level, the voltage starts to drop. This is why you get excessive heat generated by surplus energy. So our circuit breakers are designed to trip, as I've already said, if this happens. Unfortunately, not everybody in the UK seems to appreciate the importance of this kind of protection. But we are paranoid about the possibility of electrical faults; so we deemed it appropriate to spend the money to have these things installed all over the house. The ones upstairs where all the servers and things live are more complex. There are UPS units there as well sitting between the AC outlets and all of our equipment. They give us extra protection as well as the advantage of backup battery power if the mains does trip out. > ? If you drew a circle around the face of a standard electrical socket, you would hit the Hot narrow slit, the Earth round hole, and then the Neutral wider slit. > > ? The male plugs have several variations which can be maddening at times. The pins fit the slits and Earth connection so you see two flat pins and a round prong below and between the > two flats. Remember the left slit is wider? That's where the fun begins. Many plugs do not have the Earth connection but just have the two flat pins. That is kind of like the EU plugs you described. You can contact live pins if your hand slips while inserting a plug and children do get killed this way from time to time. Certain electronic equipment such as television sets > have what are called polarized plugs in that they only fit in to the socket one way. If it is a 3-prong Earthed plug, that takes care of the polarization, but if the plug only has the two pins, the Neutral pin is wider, keeping you from inserting it wrongly. > OK, now I can picture the plugs from your description. > ? Older outlets which can be found in ancient houses may not have the Neutral slit wider so a polarized plug may not fit either way. When one is hooking things in to an outlet strip, > sometimes the strip does not have polarized plugs and you're stuck up the creek without a paddle unless you find a proper polarized strip. > Sounds like a bit of a nit and miss system. Over here it's all unified so that you know when you take a new appliance out of its box, for instance, that the supplied plug will fit your mains outlet. > ? Some standard outlets also have a Neutral with a slot that looks like a T turned to the right. They will take a regular polarized plug or a slightly heavier plug for more amperage. > I would guess those are used for things like electric fires and heaters which require more input current. > ? The plugs for 240-volt service are specialized like you wouldn't believe. 240-volt outlets and their plugs are made for electric ranges and air conditioners. Others are made for > clothes driers or other specialized uses. These plugs have a minimum of 3 pins. They are Phase 1 or A at 120-volts, Phase B at 120-volts and common such that 240-volts appears across Phase A and B. Gordon and others who know about this will recognize this configuration as a center-tapped transformer output. > Yes, Gordon is saying he understands what you're talking about here. > ? Still other 240-volt plugs have an Earth connection for added safety. > I would expect all heavy-duty appliances to be earthed electrically. That's certainly how it is over here. Although televisions and entertainment equipment is no longer classed as heavy duty equipment because they are now so much more efficient in terms of power consumption. There was a time when televisions were horrendously hungry on power. But now that tube technology is history, I think that the main reason for that has gone. > ? That's all I know about our 240-volt plugs. some of the different types and pin shapes are historical. If you had hooked up an air conditioner or heater in 1968, you might have used a > different plug and socket than you use today. > In the early 60s, (I think it was) the UK moved from a round-pinned plug to a rectangular. Gordon has one or two of the old plugs kicking about here so I've seen them. But I'm too young to actually remember them in use. Gordon used them when he was young but not for long. > ? Finally, I remember reading that there is a special low-amperage plug in the U.K. called a clock plug. It is held in place by a screw so that someone can not unplug it accidentally to use the outlet for something else. I thought that was a clever idea and I am not sure if we have anything similar here, but it wouldn't be much of a leap to do that. There might, however, be a safety issue that might violate the electrical code if there is a plug one can't just yank out if something goes wrong. > Those plugs are very very rare now, in fact I'm not sure they're still in service. > ? Thanks for the description of the U.K. plugs. They sure sound a lot safer than the EU plugs they are trying to ram down your throats. > That's one reason why the government wouldn't back down, and I don't think we're going to see that change any time soon. Our electrical outlets are probably amongst the safest in the world because of their spring-loaded design. You cannot stick your finger into the socket and kill yourself by accident! The plugs themselves, as well as many appliances, have fuses in them as I said, which can be changed in accordance with what kind of device you're using. This idea does have its down side; and I've seen cases in the past where people have just used the silver foil from the wrapper of a chocolate bar, for instance, as a fuse because they couldn't be bothered to replace one that blew or something with a proper fuse. That is, of course, a recipe for disaster and that's another reason for circuit breakers. But then again, if you're stupid enough to do something like that in the first place, you deserve all you get really. > ? By the way, I once saw an Australian power plug on a television set made for that market. The plug looked much like an American plug except that the two pins are turned at 45 degree angles such that they make a V or maybe an inverted V depending on how sockets are mounted in Australia. This has the same hazard as the EU plugs and our plugs in that somebody can accidentally let their fingers slip on to the live pins if the > plug is partly in. yes, we actually have a couple of those here which came with various hard drives and things we've bought. I didn't know they were Australian plugs; but I'm horrified if that really is what the Australians are using. Lynne From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 6 17:00:41 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:00:41 +0000 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: References: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <2734B2D2-782C-4219-9A2A-910D8E99CE1C@mac-access.net> Hello Sarah On 5 Feb 2011, at 05:31, Sarah Alawami wrote: > ? Yeah and I've been damaged by 120 volts. i didn't realise that such current could throw me across a room! Ouch! You'd be surprised what can happen even at low voltages where the current is high. I'm being told that a person can easily be killed if they come into contact with a 50 volt line at 20 amps or more. Lynne From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 6 17:01:57 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:01:57 +0000 Subject: bank In-Reply-To: <462AF92D-7048-4AB2-9A62-10FFB822018B@internode.on.net> References: <462AF92D-7048-4AB2-9A62-10FFB822018B@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <18276982-2C79-44E0-ADA2-3171F643720D@mac-access.net> Hello Dane Yes, iBank is a personal finance package. iBiz is the business one so make sure you have the right edition. Lynne On 5 Feb 2011, at 10:43, Dane Trethowan wrote: > Okay I've just downloaded this package and taken a quick look and the first question, could it benefit a persons such as myself who is not in business? I have to say that it looks extremely comprehensive for financial management tasks if nothing else. > > > On 05/02/2011, at 8:40 PM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote: > >> There is an application for Mac OS X with we are trailing at the moment called iBank. It enables you to handle personal finances via a central database, and to have all of your accounts, including credit cards, savings and current accounts, available right in front of you; even when the bank you use has a website. >> >> The software supports thousands of international banking institutions, and uses special URLs (like QuickM) to gather your data. >> >> I just mention it here because I iknow that a lot of members use Windows and I wondered whether there might be a Windows version of this application. >> >> Under OSX its accessibility is excellent and hopefully, if there is a Windows version, it will be the same. >> >> It might be a cheaper alternative to some of the more well-known and expensive finance solutions. >> >> As I said, I don't know whether there is a Winows version or not. But the Mac version is at >> >> Lynne >> >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> >> Gordon & Lynne Smith; >> gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net >> >> VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET >> MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 >> Fax: +44--1642-365-123 >> >> We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 6 17:07:02 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:07:02 +0000 Subject: Is AC or DC More Dangerous? In-Reply-To: <4FA57BFA-9DB3-4612-8781-45AB39D637A2@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <201102051355.p15DtRV3082668@x.it.okstate.edu> <4FA57BFA-9DB3-4612-8781-45AB39D637A2@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <238DE422-478E-4A02-860A-B2E9FAFB1239@mac-access.net> Hello Chris On 5 Feb 2011, at 18:53, Chris Moore wrote: > ? What about wattage and amps? Someone said to me once, its not the voltage you need to worry about, it is the amps. Care to comment? Loving this electricity geeky stuff :) I just love to know how stuff works. > Gordon says it's a combination. It really depends on the configuration. Sometimes, a low voltage but high current charge can do you more damage than a high voltage low current one. Hence the police stun guns. They use a high current but low voltage charge. Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 6 17:53:09 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 04:53:09 +1100 Subject: bank In-Reply-To: <18276982-2C79-44E0-ADA2-3171F643720D@mac-access.net> References: <462AF92D-7048-4AB2-9A62-10FFB822018B@internode.on.net> <18276982-2C79-44E0-ADA2-3171F643720D@mac-access.net> Message-ID: <068596F2-1F4F-476D-9113-E0F2401F6526@internode.on.net> I think I have the right one, wish there was an easy way to get it talking to my banks web site . On 07/02/2011, at 4:01 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Dane > > Yes, iBank is a personal finance package. iBiz is the business one so make sure you have the right edition. > > Lynne > > On 5 Feb 2011, at 10:43, Dane Trethowan wrote: > >> Okay I've just downloaded this package and taken a quick look and the first question, could it benefit a persons such as myself who is not in business? I have to say that it looks extremely comprehensive for financial management tasks if nothing else. >> >> >> On 05/02/2011, at 8:40 PM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote: >> >>> There is an application for Mac OS X with we are trailing at the moment called iBank. It enables you to handle personal finances via a central database, and to have all of your accounts, including credit cards, savings and current accounts, available right in front of you; even when the bank you use has a website. >>> >>> The software supports thousands of international banking institutions, and uses special URLs (like QuickM) to gather your data. >>> >>> I just mention it here because I iknow that a lot of members use Windows and I wondered whether there might be a Windows version of this application. >>> >>> Under OSX its accessibility is excellent and hopefully, if there is a Windows version, it will be the same. >>> >>> It might be a cheaper alternative to some of the more well-known and expensive finance solutions. >>> >>> As I said, I don't know whether there is a Winows version or not. But the Mac version is at >>> >>> Lynne >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> >>> Gordon & Lynne Smith; >>> gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net >>> >>> VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET >>> MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 >>> Fax: +44--1642-365-123 >>> >>> We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >>> >>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 6 20:01:48 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:01:48 +0000 Subject: bank In-Reply-To: <068596F2-1F4F-476D-9113-E0F2401F6526@internode.on.net> References: <462AF92D-7048-4AB2-9A62-10FFB822018B@internode.on.net> <18276982-2C79-44E0-ADA2-3171F643720D@mac-access.net> <068596F2-1F4F-476D-9113-E0F2401F6526@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <9EDB635A-7B3D-4253-AFCB-2534B2E20B2B@mac-access.net> hello Dane On 6 Feb 2011, at 17:53, Dane Trethowan wrote: > I think I have the right one, wish there was an easy way to get it talking to my banks web site . > Make sure you have iBank 4. If you download the one marked "Pro", you have iBiz, which is not the same. As for your bank, try talking to their support people, apparently they are supposed to be excellent. Tell them which bank you would like supported, give them details as to the website and maybe they will do it. We are in the same situation; our bank doesn't seem to support direct downloads. I'm going to ask them about that because if their is a URL that can be used, iBank might be able to support it. Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 6 22:22:58 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 09:22:58 +1100 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?An_AccessWorld_Reader_Shares_his_Discon?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tent_with_the_Reliability_of_Braille_Notetake?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rs_-_AccessWorld=AE_-_February_2011?= Message-ID: <4D4F1F42.5030807@internode.on.net> This letter writer is right on the ball, read his Letter To The Editor of Access World at http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw120205 From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 01:27:59 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:27:59 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_An_AccessWorld_Reader_Shares_his_Discontent?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_with_the_Reliability_of_Braille_Notetakers_-_Acc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?essWorld=AE_-_February_2011?= In-Reply-To: <4D4F1F42.5030807@internode.on.net> References: <4D4F1F42.5030807@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <67B17180-A247-482C-AB52-F3FE9E9E079A@gmail.com> I agree 100 percent. I had a braille lite m20 and it claimed to do this and that but all it did was crash every year and I lost a tone of files that I needed for a test. On Feb 6, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote: > This letter writer is right on the ball, read his Letter To The Editor of Access World at http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw120205 > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From tsiegel at softcon.com Mon Feb 7 15:35:39 2011 From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 09:35:39 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards In-Reply-To: References: <201102030219.p132J77M064721@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <275EDA90-1C22-4D8B-90D1-2782708000AF@softcon.com> Our house was built around 1945 or so, and we do have a couple 240V plugs here, one of which is currently not being used, but it has a vertical slit, and a horizontal slit, and I don't remember whether or not it has the netural ground round hole with the other two, but we were planning to expand the kitchen into that room, and plug in an electric range there, so it's good to have it. I primarily thought the difference in plug configuratiofn was just so that someone wouldn't plug in a 120V appliance into a 240V socket, and blow the thing to kingdom come. I've never seen 240V plugs anywhere in any of the houses I've lived in/owned, except for in the laundry room for dryers and such, this is the first house I've ever been in (that I know of) where there's just one sitting on the wall just waiting to be used. Of course, it could have something to do with the fact that there's a boarded up air conditioner sized hole in the wall about 5 feet away, but that's just speculation. :) As regards light sockets, I have accidentally gotten my fingers into those things while trying to find the stupid thinngs to install a new light bulb, and now, I always make sure the stupid light is off before installing new ones, even if it is in a dark room, I tell every one else they can wait until I'm done before turning it back on. This is because all of the overhead lighting here is provided by ceiling fans, all of which have multiple lights on them, and when one or two are out, (since I'm the tallest in the house) I am always asked to replace them, since I don't need to stand on a chair or climb on the bed to do so. :) When I was in first grade, I was trying to plug in a device I was using for class, (no idea what it was called, but it was similar to a tape recorder, but it used what looked like index cards with magnetic tape on the bottom of them, and the machine would play back the recorded info on the card, which had the word wirtten in braille on it for me, so I could learn to read properly. Well, I got my fingers in the way of that block plug, and got quite a shock, it made me cry, though it didn't do any permanent damage. After that, I was afraid of those block plugs for years, and wouldn't touch one if I could get someone else to plug them in for me. Nowadays though, it seems everything under the sun has moved to block plugs which irritates me, because when using power strips, you loose several empty sockets due to the size of those things. And, just as an aside, I always test 9-volt batteries by putting them on my tongue to see if they are working or not. My 9-year old son is scared to death of that trick, and never touches a 9-volt battery for fear of getting shocked by it. He always makes me put them in his toys. though he has no trouble with double or tripple a ones. The things we teach our little ones. :) From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 20:34:15 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 12:34:15 -0800 Subject: Plasmonic nanofields may enable high-speed data transmission Message-ID: <996741D2-6C11-4A1A-AB34-52D64404BD7D@gmail.com> Will this help our internet and other comunications? read on: http://bit.ly/i9NUtS From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 8 19:15:51 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:15:51 -0600 Subject: World Electrical Power Standards Message-ID: <201102081915.p18JFpBm004502@x.it.okstate.edu> There are two reasons why the 240-volt plugs need to be different. One is as you say to keep someone from confusing the two outlets. I have heard that in Cuba, that is a problem. There are 120-volt and 240-volt plugs around and they are both the same times of plugs we use here for only 120 volts. The 240-volt Cuban plugs have a sticker on them but I read that the stickers frequently fall of and somebody finds out the hard way that it was a 240-volt outlet. Cuba does use 60 HZ as their line frequency so we've got yet another odity. The other reason those plugs look different is that they are generally used for heavy appliances like clothes driers, water heaters, cook stoves and heating/air conditioning equipment. the prongs must be large to safely handle all that current. Travis Siegel writes: > As regards light sockets, I have > accidentally gotten my fingers into those things while trying to find the > stupid thinngs to install a new light bulb, and now, I always make sure > the > stupid light is off before installing new ones, even if it is in a dark > room, Definitely not a good thing to do. If a lamp does not have a polarized connection, the threaded part of the bulb can be live. One of my teachers at the Arkansas School for the Blind told me a story that when he was a boy, the light bulb for the bathroom hung from the ceiling on its wire and there was no switch. You just unscrewed the bulb part way to turn off the light. One day, he was standing in a bathtub full of water and reached up to turn the bulb for some light and he briefly contacted the base of the bulb. He fell backwards when the shock hit and that probably saved his life. Doesn't that raise the hair on the back of your neck? > When I was in first grade, I was trying to plug in a device I > was > using for class, (no idea what it was called, but it was similar to a tape > recorder, but it used what looked like index cards with magnetic tape on > the bottom of them, and the machine would play back the recorded info on > the card, which had the word wirtten in braille on it for me, so I could > learn to read properly. Well, I got my fingers in the way of that block > plug, and got quite a shock, it made me cry, though it didn't do any > permanent damage. After that, I was afraid of those block plugs for years, > and wouldn't touch one if I could get someone else to plug them in for me. That device was called a Language Master. I remember them vaguely from elementary school and then I worked on a bunch of them when I was a repair technician at the OSU Audio Visual Center in the eighties. They were a specialized tape recorder although most only played. How long do you think the cards would retain their professionally-delivered words if the kids could record over them. Some did record and I remember us playing with one once. One of the guys in the shop had a debit card with a magnetic stripe on it which he didn't want so I ran it through the Language Master. The information on the mag stripe made the expected squawk over the speaker. Then, I erased the stripe with a bulk tape eraser and recorded something really profound like "Hello test test" It recorded perfectly. The only reason why it might not have was that some magnetic formulations need a high bias, but this must have been normal iron oxide as it made a good recording. > Nowadays though, it seems everything under the sun has moved to block > plugs > which irritates me, because when using power strips, you loose several > empty sockets due to the size of those things. > > > > > And, just as an aside, I always test 9-volt batteries by putting them on > my > tongue to see if they are working or not. My 9-year old son is scared to > death of that trick, and never touches a 9-volt battery for fear of > getting > shocked by it. He always makes me put them in his toys. though he has no > trouble with double or tripple a ones. > The things we teach our little ones. :) I've done that test, also. A good battery hurts a bit. From marrie12 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 20:52:35 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:52:35 -0800 Subject: PCC rules on first complaint about republication of Tweets by mainstream media Message-ID: <5BDF3713-E4C8-4D60-8B33-21AFE58FD3E9@gmail.com> Is this fair ruling on the judges part? read more: http://bit.ly/eqGnbo From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Thu Feb 10 18:46:26 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:46:26 +0000 Subject: How to install vinux Message-ID: <40B97E91-1D13-4126-AADF-644FDB2323B7@mac-access.org.uk> Hi all, Has anyone at all and sorry if I am offtopic here, installed vinux onto a macintosh? I read I can dual-boot the OS so mac or linux in our examp.e I guess, but which partition etc do I choose? Please reply privately if you wish, to save clutter if I am offtopic here. Thanks, WIll From lynne at mac-access.net Thu Feb 10 20:10:04 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:10:04 +0000 Subject: How to install vinux In-Reply-To: <40B97E91-1D13-4126-AADF-644FDB2323B7@mac-access.org.uk> References: <40B97E91-1D13-4126-AADF-644FDB2323B7@mac-access.org.uk> Message-ID: <4042D77F-8EAC-44BE-BF3A-F8F3384B21EC@mac-access.net> Hello William You are not off topic. This is exactly why this list is here. So well done for using this one. I hope you get the reply you need, on list is fine if you like. Lynne On 10 Feb 2011, at 18:46, William Lomas wrote: > Hi all, > > Has anyone at all and sorry if I am offtopic here, installed vinux onto a macintosh? > I read I can dual-boot the OS so mac or linux in our examp.e I guess, but which partition etc do I choose? > Please reply privately if you wish, to save clutter if I am offtopic here. > Thanks, WIll > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Fri Feb 11 16:25:19 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:25:19 -0600 Subject: Shark Skin Message-ID: <201102111625.p1BGPJiA026008@x.it.okstate.edu> There was a PBS program on this week about new materials under development that will change our lives. Some of these materials are still quite a long way from usefulness, but one substance has interesting possibilities. People have known that if you run your hand over a shark's body from head to tail, the skin is smooth but if you run your hand the other direction, towards the head, the skin feels like sand paper. The other interesting fact that people have noticed is that shark skin is always clean. There are no barnacles or other sea creatures attached to it. Nothing seems to like to live on it. Under a microscope, shark skin is a matrix of what look like shingles on a roof. Researchers believed that it was the texture of the surface that was hostile to anything that wanted to attach itself so they created a plastic sheet called Sharklet whose surface mimics shark skin. The results were most interesting. They took sheets of the very same plastic that was not formed with the shark-skin pattern and plastic that was and swabbed both with bacteria that represent the kind of things we might find on surfaces we all touch. The Sharklet was mostly clean after a 24-hour incubation period but the normal smooth surface was teaming with germs. One of the researchers there said that you would find one or two single bacteria here and there on the Sharklet, but they just couldn't seem to anchor themselves to start a colony. When we wash surfaces with antibacterial soap, we apparently kill about 99% of all the bugs on that surface but that one per cent we didn't kill are really stout such as MRSA the germs from Hell that you hear about in hospitals that nothing save for a blow torch will kill. What the researchers are hoping for is that Sharklet or something similar can be applied to the surfaces of things used in medical settings or for that matter, life in general so that we don't provide such a rich environment for bacteria to be transferred from one person to another. The broadcast did not say whether or not this type of surface protects against virus transmission. My own guess is that it does not as a virus is thousands of times smaller than a bacterium. We will always need to disinfect surfaces to stay healthy, but if we can keep down the number of places we might share bugs, we will have achieved the same ends by more sustainable means. Those super bugs such as MRSA, if left alone, have weaknesses of their own that select against them in the wild. The hope is that we end up with a weaker jerm population which is easier to knock down when somebody does get sick. Otherwise, we will be back to where we were in the 1800's in which one could loose a leg or die after stepping on a splinter. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Fri Feb 11 19:40:19 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:40:19 -0600 Subject: How to install vinux Message-ID: <201102111940.p1BJeJaf027276@x.it.okstate.edu> I have never installed any additional operating system on a Mac, but the bootcamp utility is meant for just this sort of activity. It should help you decide what to do as you will need to make room for the Vinux installation before you ever try to install it. What will happen is that bootcamp must re-size your drive which is hopefully large enough to give you two partitions that are still large enough to be useful. Normally, you have a hard drive that contains all MacOS. What should happen is that bootcamp will make the partition that you work in smaller by how much you want to devote to Vinux. There may be other partitions for swap space and any other utility partitions that MacOS needs and they may also be made smaller. Vinux needs at least a swap and a primary partition and one might want even more partitions, but the first order of business is to get your drive or drive array re-sized. Basically it ends up as Mac plus unused. After that the unused area is formatted according to the OS you are co-installing. You have to make Windows or Vinux happy, also so that when it boots, it sees everything it should see. The bootcamp documentation should explain how to do all these things. Since the Vinux CD comes up talking, you should hopefully be able to install from it once you have setup your drive or drive array to allow MacOS and Vinux to coexist. Most people who use bootcamp are installing Windows but some are installing Linux. Vinux is derived from Debian so the Debian community could be a good resource. Let us know how it works out and keep good notes on the nomenclature used to describe the Mac partition. That is where you do not want to install Vinux. If bootcamp lets you format the part of your drive you want for Vinux, it should be at least an ext3 file system. As I said, Linux needs no less than a swap partition plus a primary partition so your unused space that is not Mac will be divided amongst swap and primary. Swap should usually be 3 times the available memory you have. If you have a generous amount of memory like 8 gigs, then make your swap maybe 1 gigabyte because it probably will not get much usage. The Vinux swap and the Mac swap must be different as you basically have two unrelated operating systems on the same drive. You will actually be able to look in to one from the other, but be very careful that when you look, you don't touch as Unix is some of the most beautiful rope you ever hanged yourself with. It is true human genius as operating systems go, but it is a grownup tool kit. Only your knowledge will save you from yourself. Martin William Lomas writes: > Hi all, > > Has anyone at all and sorry if I am offtopic here, installed vinux onto a > macintosh? > I read I can dual-boot the OS so mac or linux in our examp.e I guess, but > which partition etc do I choose? > Please reply privately if you wish, to save clutter if I am offtopic here. > Thanks, WIll > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, > virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated > web pages located at > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group > since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > > From lynne at mac-access.net Fri Feb 11 21:40:38 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 21:40:38 +0000 Subject: Shark Skin In-Reply-To: <201102111625.p1BGPJiA026008@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102111625.p1BGPJiA026008@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: hello Martin I will not quote your post, to save bandwidth; but I did read it entirely and find it of great interest. This reminds me of a recent survey conducted here in the UK; although the subject is not identical, the findings spring to mind when I read your comments about bacterial and viral infestations. I was utterly horrified to read the survey some time ago about how a large proportion of women in the US and in the UK do not wash their hands after going to the toilet. And how a slightly smaller proportion do not do so after going to the toilet, and before handling food. If there's one sure way of transmitting bacteria, that is it! It disgusted me when I first read about this, and it disgusts me still. In our house, as some people on list may be aware, we have a nurse present. Not only for that reason, but generally anyway, we use hand cleansers all over the place; in the bathroom and in the kitchen we have dispensers which hit the eye as soon as you approach the sinks. They live just above the sinks and it is habitual for all of us to use them very very frequently. Gordon won't touch his Braille display unless he's washed his hands before doing so. And of course, even if one of us goes to make so much as a slice of toast, the first thing we do regardless of what we've been doing beforehand is to wash our hands. That is as it should be in every household in my view. So the point I'm trying to make here is that although it's good that scientists and biologists are investigating ways in which we can all stay cleaner and live in a cleaner environment, much of the problem we have on a wider scale today is due to laziness and general lack of cleanliness in our habitual behaviour as a society. There are things that we can probably all do to improve in this regard, and it's good that topics like this pop up every so often to remind us of that fact. Lynne From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 03:04:07 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:04:07 -0800 Subject: Shark Skin In-Reply-To: References: <201102111625.p1BGPJiA026008@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <5A189ADA-B0D3-48C5-8CAE-98C889A8E38D@gmail.com> I agree, but I would not make my house 100 percent sterile. You are asking for a lot of trouble in the long run. I'd probably die if I lived in a 1`00 percent germ free house. On Feb 11, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Martin > > I will not quote your post, to save bandwidth; but I did read it entirely and find it of great interest. > > This reminds me of a recent survey conducted here in the UK; although the subject is not identical, the findings spring to mind when I read your comments about bacterial and viral infestations. > > I was utterly horrified to read the survey some time ago about how a large proportion of women in the US and in the UK do not wash their hands after going to the toilet. And how a slightly smaller proportion do not do so after going to the toilet, and before handling food. > > If there's one sure way of transmitting bacteria, that is it! It disgusted me when I first read about this, and it disgusts me still. > > In our house, as some people on list may be aware, we have a nurse present. Not only for that reason, but generally anyway, we use hand cleansers all over the place; in the bathroom and in the kitchen we have dispensers which hit the eye as soon as you approach the sinks. They live just above the sinks and it is habitual for all of us to use them very very frequently. > > Gordon won't touch his Braille display unless he's washed his hands before doing so. And of course, even if one of us goes to make so much as a slice of toast, the first thing we do regardless of what we've been doing beforehand is to wash our hands. > > That is as it should be in every household in my view. So the point I'm trying to make here is that although it's good that scientists and biologists are investigating ways in which we can all stay cleaner and live in a cleaner environment, much of the problem we have on a wider scale today is due to laziness and general lack of cleanliness in our habitual behaviour as a society. > > There are things that we can probably all do to improve in this regard, and it's good that topics like this pop up every so often to remind us of that fact. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Sat Feb 12 05:12:50 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 23:12:50 -0600 Subject: Cleanliness (was Shark Skin ) Message-ID: <201102120512.p1C5Coqp029729@x.it.okstate.edu> I remember hearing about that survey in the US and UK and was duly disgusted. In developed countries all over the world, people are told about the need to wash one's hands and use proper cleanliness but some just don't believe in their hearts that the threat is as real as it is said to be, in other words, we are battling human nature. I don't see any bugs on my hands so can they really be that dirty? You and I can say, "Yes, they are that dirty," but there are lots of people who simply don't care. Then, there is a cultural issue in some places. I heard that in Saudi Arabia, there was some resistance by hospital staff to use the alcohol-based hand sanitizer because of the Islamic prohibition against alcohol consumption. The nurses and others were afraid that they would absorb alcohol so it took some extra education to convince them that it was okay and they were not taking in alcohol at all. From gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 08:57:30 2011 From: gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net (Gordon & Lynne Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:57:30 +0000 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House Message-ID: Good morning everybody; I hope your Saturday is better weather-wise than ours. We are mobile, and getting a soaking as the pouring rain hits us along with a biting cold February wind. Anyway, to the point. Gordon and I had a message yesterday from the UK agent who represents the Diskeeper Corporation. Because they had delayed sending us our license key for so long, he sent it to us, along with a free ProPremier license for a second machine. Although we don't really need it, as we now only have one Windows system and even that isn't working right, thanks to Microsoft continuing to refuse to unblock our legally purchased key. But it was a nice surprise to get the free license by way of an apology. We are going to try their -Locity product; although I think their licensing scheme is a little disgusting. You have to have two licenses if you want to use it on a dual-core system. It is likened on a per-core basis. That, to me at least, is a rip-off. If you happen to have a quad-core system, you need four licenses to run the darn thing on one single machine. What do others think of that; is it fair? Am I missing the point? I just think they are extracting the Michael, as we would call it when trying to be pollute. Lynne _______________________________________ Gordon & Lynne Smith; gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 Fax: +44--1642-365-123 We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Sat Feb 12 10:18:10 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:18:10 +0000 Subject: How to install vinux In-Reply-To: <201102111940.p1BJeJaf027276@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102111940.p1BJeJaf027276@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <0C545262-5AE3-49DA-B793-7483BAB5547E@mac-access.org.uk> may just install ubuntu not vinux I see how I get on GOing to read up on bootcamp now On 11 Feb 2011, at 19:40, Martin McCormick wrote: > I have never installed any additional operating system > on a Mac, but the bootcamp utility is meant for just this sort > of activity. > > It should help you decide what to do as you will need to > make room for the Vinux installation before you ever try to > install it. > > What will happen is that bootcamp must re-size your > drive which is hopefully large enough to give you two partitions > that are still large enough to be useful. > > Normally, you have a hard drive that contains all MacOS. > > What should happen is that bootcamp will make the > partition that you work in smaller by how much you want to > devote to Vinux. There may be other partitions for swap space > and any other utility partitions that MacOS needs and they may > also be made smaller. Vinux needs at least a swap and a primary > partition and one might want even more partitions, but the > first order of business is to get your drive or drive array > re-sized. Basically it ends up as Mac plus unused. After that > the unused area is formatted according to the OS you are > co-installing. You have to make Windows or Vinux happy, also so > that when it boots, it sees everything it should see. > > The bootcamp documentation should explain how to do all > these things. Since the Vinux CD comes up talking, you should > hopefully be able to install from it once you have setup your > drive or drive array to allow MacOS and Vinux to coexist. > > Most people who use bootcamp are installing Windows but > some are installing Linux. Vinux is derived from Debian so the > Debian community could be a good resource. > > Let us know how it works out and keep good notes on the > nomenclature used to describe the Mac partition. That is where > you do not want to install Vinux. > > If bootcamp lets you format the part of your drive you > want for Vinux, it should be at least an ext3 file system. > > As I said, Linux needs no less than a swap partition > plus a primary partition so your unused space that is not Mac > will be divided amongst swap and primary. Swap should usually be > 3 times the available memory you have. If you have a generous > amount of memory like 8 gigs, then make your swap maybe 1 > gigabyte because it probably will not get much usage. The Vinux > swap and the Mac swap must be different as you basically have > two unrelated operating systems on the same drive. > > You will actually be able to look in to one from the > other, but be very careful that when you look, you don't touch > as Unix is some of the most beautiful rope you ever hanged > yourself with. It is true human genius as operating systems go, > but it is a grownup tool kit. Only your knowledge will save you > from yourself. > > Martin > > William Lomas writes: >> Hi all, >> >> Has anyone at all and sorry if I am offtopic here, installed vinux onto a >> macintosh? >> I read I can dual-boot the OS so mac or linux in our examp.e I guess, but >> which partition etc do I choose? >> Please reply privately if you wish, to save clutter if I am offtopic here. >> Thanks, WIll >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, >> virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated >> web pages located at >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group >> since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 11:56:52 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 22:56:52 +1100 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here to be honest as my dealings with Diskeeper Corporation - though excellent - have been quite different. Firstly I've dealt directly with Diskeeper corporation themselves and have received licences for everything I've purchased on the spot, I have an account on the Diskeeper Corporation site where everything I've ever purchased is accessible when I log in. Now obviously it may be different for you given that you are a business user and I a home user. Yes, I did have a problem with Diskeeper Corporation at one time and that wasn't with the Diskeeper software itself rather with another product from Diskeeper Corporation I own called Undelete, I purchased the "Home" edition but never managed to get it to work. I had written to the support people at Diskeeper Corporation outlining the problems I was having, I think I wrote to them on this subject about 8 times and then, quite out of the blue, I received an upgrade to Undelete Pro which I've had no problems with. I have 5 different licences with Diskeeper Corporation for their Diskeeper product, 3 of which were bought for people I know as Christmas presents, Diskeeper often have sales where they sell additional Diskeeper Home licences to existing customers for the fraction of the new licence price so at these times Christmas gifts are huge bargains . I have my original Diskeeper Home licence which I use from time-to-time when testing PC'S and then I have the Pro Premier licence which I use all the time. On 12/02/2011, at 7:57 PM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote: > Good morning everybody; I hope your Saturday is better weather-wise than ours. We are mobile, and getting a soaking as the pouring rain hits us along with a biting cold February wind. > > Anyway, to the point. Gordon and I had a message yesterday from the UK agent who represents the Diskeeper Corporation. Because they had delayed sending us our license key for so long, he sent it to us, along with a free ProPremier license for a second machine. > > Although we don't really need it, as we now only have one Windows system and even that isn't working right, thanks to Microsoft continuing to refuse to unblock our legally purchased key. But it was a nice surprise to get the free license by way of an apology. > > We are going to try their -Locity product; although I think their licensing scheme is a little disgusting. You have to have two licenses if you want to use it on a dual-core system. It is likened on a per-core basis. That, to me at least, is a rip-off. If you happen to have a quad-core system, you need four licenses to run the darn thing on one single machine. > > What do others think of that; is it fair? Am I missing the point? I just think they are extracting the Michael, as we would call it when trying to be pollute. > > Lynne > > > > _______________________________________ > > Gordon & Lynne Smith; > gordon-and-lynne.mobile at mac-access.net > > VOIP ... 6718004 at GRADWELL.NET > MMS & SMS ... +44-7907-823-971 > Fax: +44--1642-365-123 > > We sent this message using our Apple iPad; the best mobile data device in the universe! > > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 12:03:49 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:03:49 +1100 Subject: CDBurning Software Message-ID: Hi everyone! If you're looking for a CD Burning package that seems to handle mos sorts of CD burning applications then take a look at Express Burn at http://www.nchsoftware.com.au Now to be fair I've only tried the Mac version which looks nicely accessible and I've not yet tried the PC version. NCH Software have brought us a string of highly useful, affordable and affective products, I use their computer based VOIP solution here called Express Talk and their Prism + Software is the best video format conversion software I've ever used, I'm only scratching the surface with regard to the various software packages this company are responsible for so take a look around the web site. From lynne at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 13:50:41 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:50:41 +0000 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hello Dane On 12 Feb 2011, at 11:56, Dane Trethowan wrote: > ? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here to be honest as my dealings with Diskeeper Corporation - though excellent - have been quite different. > No they haven't. We also dealt with the company directly. But what you obviously are not aware of is that the company passes your information on to a local dealer so that they can maybe serve you better. > ? Firstly I've dealt directly with Diskeeper corporation themselves and have received licences for everything I've purchased on the spot, I have an account on the Diskeeper Corporation site where everything I've ever purchased is accessible when I log in. > So do we. In fact I believe it was Gordon who first made you aware of the Diskeepre products. > ? Now obviously it may be different for you given that you are a business user and I a home user. > No, there's no difference at all. We, like you I think, bought the Pro Premier edition of Diskeeper. We simply were not sent our license after registration as we should have been. The 29 digit key never arrived. We contacted support; they did not respond. Then we got the message the other week from a UK dealer who, when we told him of our problem, arranged for a license to be issued. We received an apology from the company themselves after the re-issue, there had been an error which meant that our purchase instruction did not reach the proper place. That is why they gave us a free license for a second machine by way of compensation. > ? Yes, I did have a problem with Diskeeper Corporation at one time and that wasn't with the Diskeeper software itself rather with another product from Diskeeper Corporation I own called Undelete, I purchased the "Home" edition but never managed to get it to work. > As I indicated, our problem wasn't with the software. > ? I had written to the support people at Diskeeper Corporation outlining the problems I was having, I think I wrote to them on this subject about 8 times and then, quite out of the blue, I received an upgrade to Undelete Pro which I've had no problems with. > Good. I assume that this programme is different from simply recovering files from your recycle bin which is what I think it's called in Windows. Lynne From lynne at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 13:53:33 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:53:33 +0000 Subject: CDBurning Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dane Your link is broken. Lynne On 12 Feb 2011, at 12:03, Dane Trethowan wrote: > Hi everyone! > > If you're looking for a CD Burning package that seems to handle mos sorts of CD burning applications then take a look at Express Burn at http://www.nchsoftware.com.au > > Now to be fair I've only tried the Mac version which looks nicely accessible and I've not yet tried the PC version. > > NCH Software have brought us a string of highly useful, affordable and affective products, I use their computer based VOIP solution here called Express Talk and their Prism + Software is the best video format conversion software I've ever used, I'm only scratching the surface with regard to the various software packages this company are responsible for so take a look around the web site. > > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 14:25:06 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:25:06 +1100 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmm, interesting post. Yes my dealings are different with Diskeeper, firstly I don't have serial numbers to type into my software, its all activated online automatically and I don't type anything in, I think Diskeeper for example accesses some sort of licence data file which is included in your purchased software when you download it from your account on the Diskeeper site. If my information has been given to a local dealer in Australian then i'm certainly not aware of it, I've sen no mention of such on the Diskeeper web site and there's certainly been no mention of local dealers or resellers in the email I get from Diskeeper corporation. You're correct! Undelete Pro is far different from the Windows Recycle Bin which can be best described as a complete and utter joke when it comes to tracking your deleted files, many fines never end up in the Recycle Bin as they're deleted on the spot. Undelete Pro tracks everything - even older versions of files - and not only on your local computer but across your local and remote network connections. On 13/02/2011, at 12:50 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Dane > > On 12 Feb 2011, at 11:56, Dane Trethowan wrote: > >> ? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here to be honest as my dealings with Diskeeper Corporation - though excellent - have been quite different. >> > No they haven't. We also dealt with the company directly. But what you obviously are not aware of is that the company passes your information on to a local dealer so that they can maybe serve you better. > >> ? Firstly I've dealt directly with Diskeeper corporation themselves and have received licences for everything I've purchased on the spot, I have an account on the Diskeeper Corporation site where everything I've ever purchased is accessible when I log in. >> > So do we. In fact I believe it was Gordon who first made you aware of the Diskeepre products. > >> ? Now obviously it may be different for you given that you are a business user and I a home user. >> > No, there's no difference at all. We, like you I think, bought the Pro Premier edition of Diskeeper. We simply were not sent our license after registration as we should have been. The 29 digit key never arrived. We contacted support; they did not respond. Then we got the message the other week from a UK dealer who, when we told him of our problem, arranged for a license to be issued. We received an apology from the company themselves after the re-issue, there had been an error which meant that our purchase instruction did not reach the proper place. That is why they gave us a free license for a second machine by way of compensation. > >> ? Yes, I did have a problem with Diskeeper Corporation at one time and that wasn't with the Diskeeper software itself rather with another product from Diskeeper Corporation I own called Undelete, I purchased the "Home" edition but never managed to get it to work. >> > As I indicated, our problem wasn't with the software. > >> ? I had written to the support people at Diskeeper Corporation outlining the problems I was having, I think I wrote to them on this subject about 8 times and then, quite out of the blue, I received an upgrade to Undelete Pro which I've had no problems with. >> > Good. I assume that this programme is different from simply recovering files from your recycle bin which is what I think it's called in Windows. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 14:26:29 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:26:29 +1100 Subject: CDBurning Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D09CB2D-3F3A-4046-91A9-93672AA90736@internode.on.net> Yep sorry about that, try http://www.nchsoftware.com Actually I need to write to someone at NCH Software about that link as it was quoted from their own help file . On 13/02/2011, at 12:53 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Dane > > Your link is broken. > > Lynne > > On 12 Feb 2011, at 12:03, Dane Trethowan wrote: > >> Hi everyone! >> >> If you're looking for a CD Burning package that seems to handle mos sorts of CD burning applications then take a look at Express Burn at http://www.nchsoftware.com.au >> >> Now to be fair I've only tried the Mac version which looks nicely accessible and I've not yet tried the PC version. >> >> NCH Software have brought us a string of highly useful, affordable and affective products, I use their computer based VOIP solution here called Express Talk and their Prism + Software is the best video format conversion software I've ever used, I'm only scratching the surface with regard to the various software packages this company are responsible for so take a look around the web site. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 14:37:36 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:37:36 +1100 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68FE6F57-FDC3-48C3-833C-748B5B3D0AB1@internode.on.net> Okay some points I didn't cover last time. Yep, Gordon put me onto the Diskeeper software and back then? Well it wasn't anything like it is today, I've written about the changes in Diskeeper on list a couple of times at least and its one of those products that I think every Windows user should have on their system simply for the difference in performance you get from your system and even better, you the user typically don't have to do a damn thing! to configure the software, just sit back and let Diskeeper do its stuff whilst watching the performance gains from your system. What version of Diskeeper you use will depend on your computing needs, if you're using a computer 24-7 as I do then you're most certainly going to need the Premier Pro edition, for office work the Pro edition alone should suffice but start with the Home edition and see how you go. All editions can be downloaded and tried from the Diskeeper web site at http://www.diskeeper.com And finally, its a well-known secret that Windows Disk Defragmenter is a very basic version of Diskeeper. On 13/02/2011, at 12:50 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Dane > > On 12 Feb 2011, at 11:56, Dane Trethowan wrote: > >> ? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here to be honest as my dealings with Diskeeper Corporation - though excellent - have been quite different. >> > No they haven't. We also dealt with the company directly. But what you obviously are not aware of is that the company passes your information on to a local dealer so that they can maybe serve you better. > >> ? Firstly I've dealt directly with Diskeeper corporation themselves and have received licences for everything I've purchased on the spot, I have an account on the Diskeeper Corporation site where everything I've ever purchased is accessible when I log in. >> > So do we. In fact I believe it was Gordon who first made you aware of the Diskeepre products. > >> ? Now obviously it may be different for you given that you are a business user and I a home user. >> > No, there's no difference at all. We, like you I think, bought the Pro Premier edition of Diskeeper. We simply were not sent our license after registration as we should have been. The 29 digit key never arrived. We contacted support; they did not respond. Then we got the message the other week from a UK dealer who, when we told him of our problem, arranged for a license to be issued. We received an apology from the company themselves after the re-issue, there had been an error which meant that our purchase instruction did not reach the proper place. That is why they gave us a free license for a second machine by way of compensation. > >> ? Yes, I did have a problem with Diskeeper Corporation at one time and that wasn't with the Diskeeper software itself rather with another product from Diskeeper Corporation I own called Undelete, I purchased the "Home" edition but never managed to get it to work. >> > As I indicated, our problem wasn't with the software. > >> ? I had written to the support people at Diskeeper Corporation outlining the problems I was having, I think I wrote to them on this subject about 8 times and then, quite out of the blue, I received an upgrade to Undelete Pro which I've had no problems with. >> > Good. I assume that this programme is different from simply recovering files from your recycle bin which is what I think it's called in Windows. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Sat Feb 12 16:57:59 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:57:59 +0000 Subject: booting ubuntu Message-ID: hi does anyone know the sequence to boot ubuntu 10.10? When I hold down c on my mac here, to boot i wait for it to stop spinning then from what i ahve read whilst holding shift a language menu comes up. Then I press enter f 5 for the accessibility menu down arrow three times enter twice and orca should come up but nothing for me, happening From lynne at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 17:44:51 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:44:51 +0000 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A5394B4-03F6-4120-92F3-40FA442B82B1@mac-access.net> Hello Dane On 12 Feb 2011, at 14:25, Dane Trethowan wrote: > ? Yes my dealings are different with Diskeeper, firstly I don't have serial numbers to type into my software, its all activated online automatically and I don't type anything in, I think Diskeeper for example accesses some sort of licence data file which is included in your purchased software when you download it from your account on the Diskeeper site. > That is correct, if you use their download manager. You'll notice that the executable file has a number in the name; that corresponds to the license key in their database. This has nothing whatsoever to do with countries where you buy it; it's purely and simply a matter of whether or not you use their download system. We too have an account with them and we would have got the license as you did had we used their download manager. But you can enter your activation key manually in your version as well Dane, it's nothing different at all. > ? If my information has been given to a local dealer in Australian then i'm certainly not aware of it, I've sen no mention of such on the Diskeeper web site and there's certainly been no mention of local dealers or resellers in the email I get from Diskeeper corporation. > ? We were not informed in advance either. > ? You're correct! Undelete Pro is far different from the Windows Recycle Bin which can be best described as a complete and utter joke when it comes to tracking your deleted files, many fines never end up in the Recycle Bin as they're deleted on the spot. Undelete Pro tracks everything - even older versions of files - and not only on your local computer but across your local and remote network connections. > What exactly do you mean by "Local and remote" network connections? if you're using RollBack RX, you have two apps doing the same job on your local drive at least. But I'm not going to get into that discussion because in all fairness we don't use that app, (Undelete I mean), so it wouldn't be fair of either Gordon or myself to comment upon it. We only use Windows once in a very very blue moon anyway and when we do it's usually in a virtual environment. We'd use our copy of 7, but until Microsoft stops being stupid with us we can't. Actually we are contemplating taking that to our legal advisers. We bought that software perfectly legally on their website and the purchase receipt proves that. But the store support people, (if you can call them that), say that they can't help us. Technical support (again, for want of a better description), won't respond to us any more; and their first response was to tell us to go back to the store pages and sort it out from there. The store tells us to contact technical support; and round and around we go. Typical Microsoft I'm afraid, and it doesn't do anything to enhance our opinion of them or their products. Lynne From lynne at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 17:53:45 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:53:45 +0000 Subject: CDBurning Software In-Reply-To: <0D09CB2D-3F3A-4046-91A9-93672AA90736@internode.on.net> References: <0D09CB2D-3F3A-4046-91A9-93672AA90736@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <195C3FFF-0183-4AA4-B877-3A8B8B41E81D@mac-access.net> Hello Dane On 12 Feb 2011, at 14:26, Dane Trethowan wrote: > ? Yep sorry about that, try http://www.nchsoftware.com I got it, but their website is pretty horrible. The download side of it is, at any rate. But what's the advantage here over other things, like SimplyBurns for Mac or DragonBurn 4.5 for Mac? Or even Nero or Eacy Media Creator for Windows? Granted, Nero is now bloated beyond belief. But again, we don't use Windows; so we're not up on what the latest incarnations are like. Lynne From gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk Sat Feb 12 18:07:06 2011 From: gordon at tft-bbs.co.uk (Gordon Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:07:06 +0000 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: <68FE6F57-FDC3-48C3-833C-748B5B3D0AB1@internode.on.net> References: <68FE6F57-FDC3-48C3-833C-748B5B3D0AB1@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <948340AF-7FD7-48BB-88E3-76CC84190931@tft-bbs.co.uk> Hi Dane Just wanted to comment on a couple of issues you mention here. It's perfectly true to say that any operating system will generate fragmented files over time, but Microsoft's is by far the worst for this because of the nature of both NTFS and FAT. I totally agree with you about the performance gains. There can be no doubt whatsoever that using something like Diskeeper (especially the Pro Premier versions, which have their advanced file management engines enabled) is a definite advantage for any Windows user. You'd be amazed actually just how many corporate users don't bother with any form of disk defragmentation whatsoever and how many of them wonder why their systems slow down gradually until they literally stop working due to file errors. The only issue I need to correct you on is the very last point you made. You stated that Windows FDisk Defragmenter is a basic version of Diskeeper. That used to be the case, it's true. However, in Windows Vista and Windows 7, Microsoft developed its own defragmentation engine, so they no longer use Diskeeper's. I'm given to understand that the product is still promoted by Microsoft but they no longer license an engine from them because of the cost. That said, Microsoft's efforts may as well not have been made. Apparently, (and this is only based on my own findings when using Windows 7 on a range of computers), it's just the most basic basic basic of engines which does nothing really except clear up the file allocation entries in the file allocation tables and that's about it. It doesn't physically move any data as far as I can tell. I had Lynne look at a graph of a disk before and after defragmentation. The files were just the same post and pre-defrag. We have yet to try Diskeeper, but we will do so very shortly. Gordon On 12 Feb 2011, at 14:37, Dane Trethowan wrote: > > And finally, its a well-known secret that Windows Disk Defragmenter is a very basic version of Diskeeper. > From tsiegel at softcon.com Sat Feb 12 18:40:59 2011 From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:40:59 -0600 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6421271B-0277-4015-9C6E-921FAE850FC1@softcon.com> On Feb 12, 2011, at 2:57 AM, Gordon & Lynne Smith wrote: > We are going to try their -Locity product; although I think their > licensing scheme is a little disgusting. You have to have two > licenses if you want to use it on a dual-core system. It is likened > on a per-core basis. That, to me at least, is a rip-off. If you > happen to have a quad-core system, you need four licenses to run the > darn thing on one single machine. > > What do others think of that; is it fair? Am I missing the point? I > just think they are extracting the Michael, as we would call it when > trying to be pollute. I've not seen this sort of behavior from any other license scheme, except for virtual os/emulator products, where it actually makes at least a little sense, since each cpu can run a separate instance of the emulator. However, on a standard product, one that just uses the machine, and presents nothing to the end user indicating that it uses (or indeed is even aware) of multicore cpus, this approach makes no sense whatsoever. Often times, users won't even realize they have multiple cores in their machines, and any license scheme requiring a license key per cpu is just a confusing hassle for the end user. As I said though, for virtual os/emulators though, I can understand this approach, there's a lot of products doing this sort of thing, though they don't restrict you from running a single copy even if you have multiple cores in your machine, it will only execute a single thread of the application, until you upgrade your license, at which point, it then supports additional multiple executions simultaneously, as a decent software package should do. However, I've never heard of a program license that required a license for each and every cpu in a machine before it would even work, that's just wrong, and should be slapped down as hard as can possibly be managed for reasons stated above, as well as others. That's just extortion in my opinion. There's no need for that kind of behavior. I'd raise hell until they sorted it out, and I'd threaten to complain on every public forum I could find, and even post a message or two and point them to those messages with a list of other places I'm planning to post until something is done. Often times, that's the only way to get any sort of resolution out of companies like that. Sad, but true. It really boggles the mind what lengths companies will go to to separate users from their money. From lynne at mac-access.net Sat Feb 12 18:57:31 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:57:31 +0000 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: <6421271B-0277-4015-9C6E-921FAE850FC1@softcon.com> References: <6421271B-0277-4015-9C6E-921FAE850FC1@softcon.com> Message-ID: <90EA897A-FA6A-4321-AD78-C7FFFB8EA9D6@mac-access.net> Hello Travis On 12 Feb 2011, at 18:40, Travis Siegel wrote: > > ? I've not seen this sort of behavior from any other license scheme, except for virtual os/emulator products, where it actually makes at least a little sense, since each cpu can run a separate instance of the emulator. > However, on a standard product, one that just uses the machine, and presents nothing to the end user indicating that it uses (or indeed is even aware) of multicore cpus, this approach makes no sense whatsoever. Often times, users won't even realize they have multiple cores in their machines, and any license scheme requiring a license key per cpu is just a confusing hassle for the end user. I totally agree; and I intend to raise the issue with them to ask for an explanation of the reasons why they employ this kind of philosophy if, of course, it isn't just a purely commercial decision; intended to raise additional revenue. But I don't see the logic in the approach at all. > ? As I said though, for virtual os/emulators though, I can understand this approach, there's a lot of products doing this sort of thing, though they don't restrict you from running a single copy even if you have multiple cores in your machine, it will only execute a single thread of the application, until you upgrade your license, at which point, it then supports additional multiple executions simultaneously, as a decent software package should do. > However, I've never heard of a program license that required a license for each and every cpu in a machine before it would even work, that's just wrong, and should be slapped down as hard as can possibly be managed for reasons stated above, as well as others. That's just extortion in my opinion. There's no need for that kind of behavior. > I'd raise hell until they sorted it out, and I'd threaten to complain on every public forum I could find, and even post a message or two and point them to those messages with a list of other places I'm planning to post until something is done. Often times, that's the only way to get any sort of resolution out of companies like that. > Sad, but true. > It really boggles the mind what lengths companies will go to to separate users from their money. > This is purely a virtual disk defragmentation application. Where is the logic in licensing on a per-CPU or per-core basis, as they call it? You're using the same virtual disk in all cores, so why on earth license it per-core? I'm no technical buff; but even to me, one plus one equals two! Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 20:10:51 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:10:51 +1100 Subject: A Pleasant Surprise from a Software House In-Reply-To: <2A5394B4-03F6-4120-92F3-40FA442B82B1@mac-access.net> References: <2A5394B4-03F6-4120-92F3-40FA442B82B1@mac-access.net> Message-ID: <88CBE9CB-B083-4E4D-8314-3A75EDE66387@internode.on.net> Well thanks for the information about the activation of Diskeeper, I wasn't aware that you could type in serial numbers manually. On 13/02/2011, at 4:44 AM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Dane > > On 12 Feb 2011, at 14:25, Dane Trethowan wrote: > >> ? Yes my dealings are different with Diskeeper, firstly I don't have serial numbers to type into my software, its all activated online automatically and I don't type anything in, I think Diskeeper for example accesses some sort of licence data file which is included in your purchased software when you download it from your account on the Diskeeper site. >> > That is correct, if you use their download manager. You'll notice that the executable file has a number in the name; that corresponds to the license key in their database. > > This has nothing whatsoever to do with countries where you buy it; it's purely and simply a matter of whether or not you use their download system. We too have an account with them and we would have got the license as you did had we used their download manager. But you can enter your activation key manually in your version as well Dane, it's nothing different at all. > >> ? If my information has been given to a local dealer in Australian then i'm certainly not aware of it, I've sen no mention of such on the Diskeeper web site and there's certainly been no mention of local dealers or resellers in the email I get from Diskeeper corporation. >> > ? We were not informed in advance either. > >> ? You're correct! Undelete Pro is far different from the Windows Recycle Bin which can be best described as a complete and utter joke when it comes to tracking your deleted files, many fines never end up in the Recycle Bin as they're deleted on the spot. Undelete Pro tracks everything - even older versions of files - and not only on your local computer but across your local and remote network connections. >> > What exactly do you mean by "Local and remote" network connections? > > if you're using RollBack RX, you have two apps doing the same job on your local drive at least. But I'm not going to get into that discussion because in all fairness we don't use that app, (Undelete I mean), so it wouldn't be fair of either Gordon or myself to comment upon it. We only use Windows once in a very very blue moon anyway and when we do it's usually in a virtual environment. > > We'd use our copy of 7, but until Microsoft stops being stupid with us we can't. Actually we are contemplating taking that to our legal advisers. We bought that software perfectly legally on their website and the purchase receipt proves that. But the store support people, (if you can call them that), say that they can't help us. Technical support (again, for want of a better description), won't respond to us any more; and their first response was to tell us to go back to the store pages and sort it out from there. The store tells us to contact technical support; and round and around we go. > > Typical Microsoft I'm afraid, and it doesn't do anything to enhance our opinion of them or their products. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 12 20:18:39 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:18:39 +1100 Subject: Defragmentation of drives In-Reply-To: <948340AF-7FD7-48BB-88E3-76CC84190931@tft-bbs.co.uk> References: <68FE6F57-FDC3-48C3-833C-748B5B3D0AB1@internode.on.net> <948340AF-7FD7-48BB-88E3-76CC84190931@tft-bbs.co.uk> Message-ID: I'm not yet a Windows 7 user and no I wasn't aware of the change in the degragmentation engine. Naturally any operating system as you say is going to cause some degree of defragmentation of a hard drive over time given that files are continually written to and read from the drive. the Mac has some excellent defragmentation tools available for its operating system, most of the defragmentation is handled under the hood of the operating system and reasonably well I'm given to understand but you still notice a huge difference in performance when you defragment your drives with something such as I Defrag, yep you don't have to use it often and from what I remember I think the developers talk about using the software 2 or 3 times a year. Now back to Windows, Diskeeper isn't the only tool of its type around, there's another well regarded Disk defragmenter called Perfect Disk however its not accessible which makes it rather useless for me . On 13/02/2011, at 5:07 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: > Hi Dane > > Just wanted to comment on a couple of issues you mention here. > > It's perfectly true to say that any operating system will generate fragmented files over time, but Microsoft's is by far the worst for this because of the nature of both NTFS and FAT. > > I totally agree with you about the performance gains. There can be no doubt whatsoever that using something like Diskeeper (especially the Pro Premier versions, which have their advanced file management engines enabled) is a definite advantage for any Windows user. You'd be amazed actually just how many corporate users don't bother with any form of disk defragmentation whatsoever and how many of them wonder why their systems slow down gradually until they literally stop working due to file errors. > > The only issue I need to correct you on is the very last point you made. You stated that Windows FDisk Defragmenter is a basic version of Diskeeper. That used to be the case, it's true. However, in Windows Vista and Windows 7, Microsoft developed its own defragmentation engine, so they no longer use Diskeeper's. I'm given to understand that the product is still promoted by Microsoft but they no longer license an engine from them because of the cost. > > That said, Microsoft's efforts may as well not have been made. Apparently, (and this is only based on my own findings when using Windows 7 on a range of computers), it's just the most basic basic basic of engines which does nothing really except clear up the file allocation entries in the file allocation tables and that's about it. It doesn't physically move any data as far as I can tell. > > I had Lynne look at a graph of a disk before and after defragmentation. The files were just the same post and pre-defrag. We have yet to try Diskeeper, but we will do so very shortly. > > Gordon > > On 12 Feb 2011, at 14:37, Dane Trethowan wrote: >> >> And finally, its a well-known secret that Windows Disk Defragmenter is a very basic version of Diskeeper. >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From support at tft-bbs.com Sun Feb 13 18:04:46 2011 From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:04:46 +0000 Subject: Service Announcement; [IMPORTANT]; Please Read!!! Message-ID: <5F8880E2-E1D8-4DCF-86D2-F3CE08E624EE@tft-bbs.com> Hello Firstly, this post is being sent to all of our groups so, if you receive it in multiple mailboxes, we apologise. But the information herein is something which everybody who uses our services, directly or indirectly, needs to know. So, if you read this message, it might avoid the need for questions later. If, however, you do still have questions, please don't hesitate to contact us off list. We won't be answering questions off list as it would be off topic. You can reach us at . The coming week is a big week for us here in terms of the services which we provide to our clients, and the lists which we host for our group members. On Thursday of this week, (17 February), we will be discontinuing the service we have with our current connectivity provider and switching to a new one which offers us better speeds and better technical resources. This is the second such switch, although the first did not impact on any of our services except for secondary ones which nobody even noticed were changing. However, this coming week sees the switch-over of our primary service network to the new provider and, subsequently, it is inevitable that our primary services will go off line for a time during the switch-over. The issue is further complicated by the fact that it is not possible to port one's IP addresses when changing providers. Because of this, we need to completely re-map everything in DNS, and have it propagate the Internet before services all return to normal. Usually, propagation takes a couple of hours at most; the days of 24-hours change-over are long gone, though some Internet Service Providers will still advertise that kind of time scale to cover their backs. We do not know what time our services will stop on Thursday; it could be any time between 08:00 and 20:00 UTC. You can rest assured that we will be monitoring the activity constantly throughout that day and, as soon as things begin to change, we will start working on the DNS side of things; which we control ourselves. We already know the new IP addresses we will be allocated, so we can prepare in advance for the new service as soon as the old one goes down. Hopefully, therefore, the transition will be relatively smooth; but we can't vouch for the behaviour of external organisations. Therefore, in advance, we apologise for any short term inconvenience that the outage may create for you. We ask you to bear in mind, however, that the long-term benefits will make the short-term inconvenience worthwhile. As far as our email services are concerned, we already have in place robust and reliable MX backup servers which are located off-site. Those servers will accept mail destined for any of our domains. The inbound mail will be held for delivery until our primary services come back on stream. Once that happens, the mail will be bulk sent to us, and we will despatch it to its recipients as usual. Our file manager will not be affected by this outage, as it resides on the other network trunk and, therefore, has already been moved to its new home. We hope to be able to minimise the outage further by temporarily re-locating our websites on to the secondary network. That will allow all web content to continue to be served even though the primary servers are down. We will advise those affected by this particular issue in a separate email later in the week as to status. So, to summarise; the most affected services will be mail, NTP, primary DNS services and, possibly, website access. Once again we apologise in advance for any short term inconvenience which this may cause. It is strictly a one-off event which has been planned for several months. We have simply been awaiting the availability of the technical resources which we required at the new connectivity provider's hubs. Those are now in place, so we are keen to go ahead with the switch in order that we ourselves can expand and reorganise our own services and facilities. When the switch-over is complete, we will have a total of 32 public IP4 addresses available to us on 2 separate class C networks. This is an important factor as we have several exciting new changes in the pipeline which we will now be able to bring on stream. As always, let me also assure you that our visually impaired clients will remain exempted from any service or hosting charges. We hope to be able to improve still further on the services we offer to our clients in the coming weeks, now that we have a bit of leg-room and a useable IP4 array at our disposal. Once of the first upcoming services will be a VPN, which will allow our clients to log in even more securely to retrieve mail and do other things. More about this later. Once again if you have any comments or questions regarding the above, please feel free to contact us at the support address, and we will be happy to address them for you. Lynne From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Mon Feb 14 13:35:17 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:35:17 +0000 Subject: oddities when joining google groups Message-ID: <27F32A11-FDCF-4CB5-A91F-47256CF1A17C@mac-access.org.uk> hi all has anyone else had to have a google account when signing up to a google group? I want to sing up to the vinux one as getting nowhere with this mac, vinux and the live cd, but i don't want a google account. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Mon Feb 14 14:14:07 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 08:14:07 -0600 Subject: Defragmentation of drives Message-ID: <201102141414.p1EEE7Ta047422@x.it.okstate.edu> Unix systems generally do continuous defragmentation or at least that is what I have been lead to believe. You might have trouble if your drive is extremely full and you don't have enough memory resources and or swap space. In that case, you will probably have lots of performance issues and general weirdness, some of which may be due to fragmentation and some due to simply not having the wherewithal to run the tasks at hand. If you can hear your drive, it will probably be very, very busy as it tries to keep up with the demands. From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Mon Feb 14 16:09:16 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:09:16 +0000 Subject: fusion Message-ID: <84F6CB59-4D38-4461-B0D6-A12C5BA5FCF0@mac-access.org.uk> hi all ok when I was in fusion it seemed that the software on my mac, that is to say ubuntu, (vinux) found my sky wireless and autoconnected. when I try and install it though where do I put the OS? If I chose erase whole disc surely i lose my mac partition or will that format the space put aside for the OS in question in my case, fusion? thanks, WIll reply offlist if you want save me cluttering this list with fusion and mac and indeed, linux related questionning as this is not a linux list From lynne at mac-access.net Mon Feb 14 20:54:12 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 20:54:12 +0000 Subject: fusion In-Reply-To: <84F6CB59-4D38-4461-B0D6-A12C5BA5FCF0@mac-access.org.uk> References: <84F6CB59-4D38-4461-B0D6-A12C5BA5FCF0@mac-access.org.uk> Message-ID: <6B5DCA2A-D08D-4DF1-8CC8-E9057866EBBE@mac-access.net> William When you install under Fusion, you are using a virtual drive by default, not a physical one. So erase whole disk means your virtual drive. Lynne On 14 Feb 2011, at 16:09, William Lomas wrote: > hi all ok when I was in fusion it seemed that the software on my mac, that is to say ubuntu, (vinux) found my sky wireless and autoconnected. when I try and install it though where do I put the OS? > If I chose erase whole disc surely i lose my mac partition or will that format the space put aside for the OS in question in my case, fusion? > thanks, WIll > reply offlist if you want save me cluttering this list with fusion and mac and indeed, linux related questionning as this is not a linux list > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Mon Feb 14 23:57:38 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 23:57:38 +0000 Subject: Defragmentation of drives In-Reply-To: <201102141414.p1EEE7Ta047422@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102141414.p1EEE7Ta047422@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Hello Martin I am not sure OSX is like this and Windows certainly isn't. We have a programme called iDefrag for OSX and it makes a lot of difference if you use it to optimise a drive. You do need to be booted from an alternative source in order to do the job properly though or it can't move some files that it needs to move. That's one problem with the internal defragmentation jobs I'm lead to believe in OSX and most other LINUX systems so I would presume it applies to Unix as well. I am not a computer guru so I could well be wrong. But I can tell you for a fact that iDefrag on OSX is well worth the money we paid for it. It is a British programme actually but most annoyingly they have to use American spelling for everything as they want international custom and they say their customers think it's wrong when they spell things the British way. No offence to anybody on list; but that's a typically American attitude for some people. Lynne On 14 Feb 2011, at 14:14, Martin McCormick wrote: > Unix systems generally do continuous defragmentation or at least that is what I have been lead to believe. You might have trouble if your drive is extremely full and you don't have > enough memory resources and or swap space. In that case, you will probably have lots of performance issues and general weirdness, some of which may be due to fragmentation and some due to simply not having the wherewithal to run the tasks at hand. If you can hear your drive, it will probably be very, very busy as it tries to keep up with the demands. From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 03:29:37 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:29:37 -0800 Subject: Defragmentation of drives In-Reply-To: References: <201102141414.p1EEE7Ta047422@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <207066A0-A1AA-4256-9486-278747B94857@gmail.com> ISX does defrag drives but I've seen it barf when my start up disk is full. I cannot vouch for unix as I don't use it at all. but windows I run a defrag every time I remove a huge chunk of stuff. Take care. S On Feb 14, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Martin > > I am not sure OSX is like this and Windows certainly isn't. We have a programme called iDefrag for OSX and it makes a lot of difference if you use it to optimise a drive. > > You do need to be booted from an alternative source in order to do the job properly though or it can't move some files that it needs to move. That's one problem with the internal defragmentation jobs I'm lead to believe in OSX and most other LINUX systems so I would presume it applies to Unix as well. I am not a computer guru so I could well be wrong. > > But I can tell you for a fact that iDefrag on OSX is well worth the money we paid for it. It is a British programme actually but most annoyingly they have to use American spelling for everything as they want international custom and they say their customers think it's wrong when they spell things the British way. No offence to anybody on list; but that's a typically American attitude for some people. > > Lynne > > On 14 Feb 2011, at 14:14, Martin McCormick wrote: > >> Unix systems generally do continuous defragmentation or at least that is what I have been lead to believe. You might have trouble if your drive is extremely full and you don't have >> enough memory resources and or swap space. In that case, you will probably have lots of performance issues and general weirdness, some of which may be due to fragmentation and some due to simply not having the wherewithal to run the tasks at hand. If you can hear your drive, it will probably be very, very busy as it tries to keep up with the demands. > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 15 16:34:05 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:34:05 -0600 Subject: Defragmentation of drives Message-ID: <201102151634.p1FGY5oX058740@x.it.okstate.edu> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes: > I am not sure OSX is like this and Windows certainly isn't. We have a > programme called iDefrag for OSX and it makes a lot of difference if you > use it to optimise a drive. > > You do need to be booted from an alternative source in order to do the > job properly though or it can't move some files that it needs to move. > That's one problem with the internal defragmentation jobs I'm lead to > believe in OSX and most other LINUX systems so I would presume it applies > to Unix as well. I am not a computer guru so I could well be wrong. Not really. There are lots of different versions of Unix out there and OSX is Unix but it is Apple's version of BSD Unix. BSD stands for Berkeley Software Domain which is one big family of Unix operating systems. IBM has AIX which is it's version and then there is AT&T as another big family of Unix versions. Whether or not you can defragment the running file system depends upon what file system that particular Unix version uses. Every file system has strengths and weaknesses so there are several different FS's out there. If there was one perfect file system, everybody would use it. Linux and many other versions of Unix use file systems that can be defragmented on a continuous basis. Mac's don't use the same file system that Linux typically uses and FreeBSD uses something else totally different from Mac and Linux. Having to run iDefrag from somewhere else for best results tells me that the Mac file system whose name escapes me right now can not be safely defragmented while mounted. That's not a value judgment because all disk operating systems are compromises between speed and data security. > But I can tell you for a fact that iDefrag on OSX is well worth the money > we paid for it. It is a British programme actually but most annoyingly > they have to use American spelling for everything as they want > international custom and they say their customers think it's wrong when > they spell things the British way. No offence to anybody on list; but > that's a typically American attitude for some people. That is true but many of us also just say, "Oh, that's the British spelling" and go on. If you are driving and reading the manual on your phone, we may even drift in to the left lane and need some serious defragmentation of us and our car. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 15 17:05:09 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:05:09 -0600 Subject: Zoom H1 Message-ID: <201102151705.p1FH59Mt058959@x.it.okstate.edu> Last night, Beverly got me a beautiful new H1 recorder. The UPS truck delivered it rather late yesterday evening so I have not had much time to play with it but I really like it. I can't get over how utterly tiny those micro SD cards are. I got the 2GB card and actually missed it, thinking the adaptor was the card. One question that comes to mind. Does the USB connection attempt to charge the AA battery that is in the H1? If it does, that could be bad if you have a non-rechargeble battery in the compartment. By the way, the date stamp starts in January of 2010 so one shouldn't have to do too much counting. The 2GB drive mounted perfectly on a Linux box, showing stereo/folder01 as the default folder. The file extensions are .WAV on the recordings I made which, in the Unix world is not the same as .wav. Case is important. I did try the trick of putting an AM radio very near the recorder and you can hear a roughly 60 HZ buzz from the display when it is off and lots of funny noises as it starts up and runs. You can hear that rhythmic sound as the recorder writes to the drive so you know if you are sampling faster than a 44.1 KHZ sampling rate. My 59-year-old ears thought the sound quality was excellent. If you record room background noise and play it back, it is indistinguishable from the monitor. I once thought I was listening through the monitor until I heard myself bump one of the microphones. I hadn't moved so I knew it was playing a previous test. I bought a Sony TC105 quarter-track mono recorder in May of 1970. You could get great sound through the monitor and, if you used good tape, you could almost duplicate that sound at 7.5 inches per second but there was noticeable hiss and dropouts as the tape got older and warn out. That recorder cost around $150 in 1970 and I used it until the transport just couldn't be made good again in the late nineties. I doubt the H1 can last thirty years, but it's recorded sound will probably be equal to how it sounded new until it simply fails one day. It is amazing to think there are no moving parts save for the buttons and all those electrons. From grtdane at internode.on.net Tue Feb 15 17:48:37 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 04:48:37 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1 In-Reply-To: <201102151705.p1FH59Mt058959@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102151705.p1FH59Mt058959@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: No, the USB connection doesn't try to charge the battery in the H1 so when the power supply is used - if you have one - the battery is disconnected. On 16/02/2011, at 4:05 AM, Martin McCormick wrote: > Last night, Beverly got me a beautiful new H1 recorder. > The UPS truck delivered it rather late yesterday evening so I > have not had much time to play with it but I really like it. > > I can't get over how utterly tiny those micro SD cards > are. I got the 2GB card and actually missed it, thinking the > adaptor was the card. > > One question that comes to mind. Does the USB connection > attempt to charge the AA battery that is in the H1? If it does, > that could be bad if you have a non-rechargeble battery in the > compartment. > > By the way, the date stamp starts in January of 2010 so > one shouldn't have to do too much counting. > > The 2GB drive mounted perfectly on a Linux box, showing > stereo/folder01 as the default folder. The file extensions are > .WAV on the recordings I made which, in the Unix world is not > the same as .wav. Case is important. > > I did try the trick of putting an AM radio very near the > recorder and you can hear a roughly 60 HZ buzz from the display > when it is off and lots of funny noises as it starts up and > runs. You can hear that rhythmic sound as the recorder writes to > the drive so you know if you are sampling faster than a 44.1 KHZ > sampling rate. My 59-year-old ears thought the sound quality was > excellent. If you record room background noise and play it back, > it is indistinguishable from the monitor. I once thought I was > listening through the monitor until I heard myself bump one of > the microphones. I hadn't moved so I knew it was playing a > previous test. > > I bought a Sony TC105 quarter-track mono recorder in May > of 1970. You could get great sound through the monitor and, if > you used good tape, you could almost duplicate that sound at 7.5 > inches per second but there was noticeable hiss and dropouts as > the tape got older and warn out. That recorder cost around $150 > in 1970 and I used it until the transport just couldn't be made > good again in the late nineties. I doubt the H1 can last thirty > years, but it's recorded sound will probably be equal to how it > sounded new until it simply fails one day. It is amazing to > think there are no moving parts save for the buttons and all > those electrons. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Tue Feb 15 20:37:06 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:37:06 +1100 Subject: Discussion Of World Power supplies, a different angle Message-ID: Hi! I'd be interested in opinions on this. I've been ordering a lot of products from the United States lately and - whilst all run beautifully on batteries - they all came with AC adapters which are of no use to me as I use 240 volts for AC power and not 11 as you American's do . Today I purchased a 300 watt 240-110 "Step down" transformer but didn't ask the following question until after I'd made the purchase. The brochure I read on the transformer said nothing about conversion from 50 to 60HZ so will this make a difference at all? I'll be running radio equipment and the like mainly. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 15 21:59:58 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:59:58 -0600 Subject: Discussion Of World Power supplies, a different angle Message-ID: <201102152159.p1FLxwFr061010@x.it.okstate.edu> If it is those wall cube type converters, it won't make a bit of difference. The transformer will not convert 50 to 60 Hertz. Most stuff these days will work just fine if the voltage is right. If the adaptor has an Earth pin, you need to connect it to Earth as a lot of power supplies feed voltage spikes to the Earth Pin. Not doing so is a safety and performance issue. Otherwise, you should have no trouble. Dane Trethowan writes: > I'd be interested in opinions on this. > > I've been ordering a lot of products from the United States lately and - > whilst all run beautifully on batteries - they all came with AC adapters > which are of no use to me as I use 240 volts for AC power and not 11 as > you American's do . > > Today I purchased a 300 watt 240-110 "Step down" transformer but didn't > ask the following question until after I'd made the purchase. > > The brochure I read on the transformer said nothing about conversion from > 50 to 60HZ so will this make a difference at all? I'll be running radio > equipment and the like mainly. From lynne at mac-access.net Tue Feb 15 22:06:13 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:06:13 +0000 Subject: Defragmentation of drives In-Reply-To: <201102151634.p1FGY5oX058740@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102151634.p1FGY5oX058740@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <03BF6E09-6DEB-4D11-959B-E1A9D26FF0AC@mac-access.net> Hello Martin On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:34, Martin McCormick wrote: > ? Not really. There are lots of different versions of Unix out there and OSX is Unix but it is Apple's version of BSD Unix. BSD > stands for Berkeley Software Domain which is one big family of > Unix operating systems. IBM has AIX which is it's version and > then there is AT&T as another big family of Unix versions. > Whether or not you can defragment the running file system > depends upon what file system that particular Unix version uses. > Every file system has strengths and weaknesses so there are > several different FS's out there. If there was one perfect file > system, everybody would use it. > I'm not a tech so I can't argue the case. I can only speak on what I find. When I use iDefrag, booting from a DVD or from an external hard drive, I can see the layout in a graph of the file system on the drive. I can clearly see where the split files are and believe me Martin, iDefrag makes the world of difference under OSX 10.6.6. I use it regularly and I can tell you that the difference in performance, pre and post-defragmentation is extremely noticeable. Boot times can be reduced by up to 50% by defragmentation. We run our OS in 64-bit mode and in that mode defragmentation using iDefrag make so much difference, I cannot begin to tell you. I don't know enough by a million miles to agree or disagree with what you are saying about the internals of OSX. But I can speak on what I see and, I hope nobody will take offence here. What I see is not necessarily what you see. You have the major disadvantage of not being able to see the layout of the drive when it's presented to you by a programme such as iDefrag. I can see that graph and, as I said, if you could see the amount of split files, cluttered free space and unusable space that the OS marks as unusable because of corrupted data residing there, you'd get a shock. iDefrag can clear that space and it really does make a world of difference. Lynne From lynne at mac-access.net Tue Feb 15 22:12:37 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:12:37 +0000 Subject: Zoom H1 In-Reply-To: <201102151705.p1FH59Mt058959@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102151705.p1FH59Mt058959@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <68434310-F75E-444D-9479-AF17743E38F6@mac-access.net> Hello Martin Gordon is using his H1 all the time; so we agree about the sound quality. He also has an external Sony microphone thanks to Dane's recommendation. It is a clip-on mic, and it too is excellent. The quality of sound and the sensitivity of the H1 is amazing for what it is. Yes, the micro-SD cards are indeed tiny. Gordon is using a 16GB card at the moment and it serves him well. We too got a 2GB card with it and only upgraded because he wants to use high sample rates for longer periods of time than the 2GB card would allow. Lynne From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 16 03:31:32 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:31:32 -0600 Subject: Defragmentation of drives Message-ID: <201102160331.p1G3VWxA062652@x.it.okstate.edu> I wasn't disagreeing at all as to whether the Mac needs defragmentation. I am actually very glad to know all this because I assumed that Mac OS took care of all that so it is really good to know. In Linux, you only get a very small amount of fragmentation at any given time so if my Mac at work starts to slow down, I'll have a good idea as to what to look for. "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes: > I'm not a tech so I can't argue the case. I can only speak on what I > find. When I use iDefrag, booting from a DVD or from an external hard > drive, I can see the layout in a graph of the file system on the drive. > > I can clearly see where the split files are and believe me Martin, > iDefrag makes the world of difference under OSX 10.6.6. I use it > regularly and I can tell you that the difference in performance, pre and > post-defragmentation is extremely noticeable. > > Boot times can be reduced by up to 50% by defragmentation. We run our OS > in 64-bit mode and in that mode defragmentation using iDefrag make so > much difference, I cannot begin to tell you. > > I don't know enough by a million miles to agree or disagree with what you > are saying about the internals of OSX. But I can speak on what I see and, > I hope nobody will take offence here. What I see is not necessarily what > you see. You have the major disadvantage of not being able to see the > layout of the drive when it's presented to you by a programme such as > iDefrag. I can see that graph and, as I said, if you could see the amount > of split files, cluttered free space and unusable space that the OS marks > as unusable because of corrupted data residing there, you'd get a shock. > > iDefrag can clear that space and it really does make a world of > difference. > > Lynne From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 16 03:49:12 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:49:12 -0600 Subject: Zoom H1 Message-ID: <201102160349.p1G3nCds062770@x.it.okstate.edu> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" writes: > Gordon is using his H1 all the time; so we agree about the sound quality. > He also has an external Sony microphone thanks to Dane's recommendation. I can see why. If you use the built-in microphones, it is very easy to transmit sound in to them via the case of the H1 as you hold it. Many microphones are like this, also so it is not unique to the H1. Just as a test, I stood on our front porch and recorded neighborhood sounds which, tonight consisted solely of traffic several blocks away so it isn't much but when I played the file back over my computer speakers, it gave the feeling of being there. We have some wind chimes hanging where I was standing and I bumped them accidentally while recording. Bells are really hard to record but these are amazing well reproduced. I highly recommend the wind screen that is in the accessory kit. Those little microphones pick up the breeze of moving the recorder quite well without it. > It is a clip-on mic, and it too is excellent. > > The quality of sound and the sensitivity of the H1 is amazing for what it > is. Yes, the micro-SD cards are indeed tiny. Gordon is using a 16GB card > at the moment and it serves him well. > > We too got a 2GB card with it and only upgraded because he wants to use > high sample rates for longer periods of time than the 2GB card would > allow. I will probably eventually do that just for the peace of mind of knowing there is plenty of medium. Thanks for all the helpful information. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 16 03:59:02 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:59:02 -0600 Subject: More about the H1 Message-ID: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> A couple of observations: I was curious to see if it would play MP3 files recorded somewhere else. It will but it only likes them if you name them ZOOM####.MP3 where the # signs are digits starting at 0001. If you don't do that, it just sits there when you press Play. There may be an error indication on the display but it won't play the MP3's if the name doesn't start with ZOOM. I also noticed that the recorder will work fine when powered by the USB cable if it was on when the cable was connected. You can turn it off this way but it won't turn back on. I didn't try it without a battery but I noticed that little oddity. Other than accidentally changing the sampling rate a couple of times, it has been a real breeze to operate. From grtdane at internode.on.net Wed Feb 16 04:57:00 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:57:00 +1100 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <17D847EC-38BE-4C1F-99CC-8B9907BE5F43@internode.on.net> As I've been saying for the past 4 months, its one of the best ever devices I've held in my hand but no one would listen of course A couple of observations: > > I was curious to see if it would play MP3 files recorded > somewhere else. It will but it only likes them if you name them > ZOOM####.MP3 where the # signs are digits starting at 0001. If > you don't do that, it just sits there when you press Play. There > may be an error indication on the display but it won't play the > MP3's if the name doesn't start with ZOOM. > > I also noticed that the recorder will work fine when > powered by the USB cable if it was on when the cable was > connected. You can turn it off this way but it won't turn back > on. I didn't try it without a battery but I noticed that little > oddity. > > Other than accidentally changing the sampling rate a > couple of times, it has been a real breeze to operate. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Wed Feb 16 06:12:23 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 06:12:23 +0000 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: <17D847EC-38BE-4C1F-99CC-8B9907BE5F43@internode.on.net> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <17D847EC-38BE-4C1F-99CC-8B9907BE5F43@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <012EA06F-ADAC-43D5-86C6-75E10FB5E619@mac-access.net> Hello Dane, Martin, uncle Tom Cobbly and all! On 16 Feb 2011, at 04:57, Dane Trethowan wrote: > ? As I've been saying for the past 4 months, its one of the best ever devices I've held in my hand but no one would listen of course Awwwww, don't we just feel so sorry for ya, not! :) Nobody would listen; that's why I went out and bought one I guess. ;) Gordon has the microphone you were harping on about. It's excellent, no denying that. The electric condensor microphone that clips on to your jacket, the collar of your shirt or wherever. It works incredibly well with the Zoom H1. In fact, Gordon has already produced several demonstrations for work purposes using that combination of hardware. No, no mixing of course; but it wasn't necessary anyway in that particular instance. Anyway, nobody is listening to what I'm saying so I might as well shuddup! Lynne From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 16 13:47:22 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:47:22 -0600 Subject: Sound Systems Message-ID: <201102161347.p1GDlMoV067220@x.it.okstate.edu> Talking about work-related sound projects reminds me of when I was a technician for our Audio Visual service in the eighties before my present life. Besides fixing broken equipment, one thing we did from time to time was to run sound systems for public events. One nice evening, the President of the university made some sort of dedication and we set up an out-door public address system to carry his oration to all the spectators. I was told that all I needed to do was run the amplifier. It was a good Bogan public address amplifier that used vacuum tubes or valves but fed a really good sound in to a large loud speaker set near by. I was standing there at the amplifier with my head basically in the back of the speaker so I got to hear things really loudly. The President was making his speech and all was well when I began to notice the sound fading down slowly as if for effect. I first thought he had moved away from the microphone but immediately realized that he had not and I needed to do something fast as there would soon be no sound at all. The sound was as if one of the vacuum tubes had lost filament voltage which would cause it to slowly stop amplifying. One problem with gear that uses tubes is that the sockets holding the tubes occasionally loose contact with one of the pins at the base of the tube. I decided to try some scientific-based field maintenance so I raised one end of the amplifier up a few inches and basically dropped it back down to the table. I am sure this was probably amusing to the spectators. Low and behold, the audio gracefully faded back up to normal and nothing else happened that evening. The next morning, I put that amplifier on the work bench and connected it to an 8-ohm load resistor to simulate a speaker and then connected a real speaker to it but through a large resistor so that we didn't have to hear anything but a faint sound. I fed it from a signal generator to produce a tone and then went about doing other things for a while. About 15 minutes later, the sound faded out just as it had the night before and I began wiggling each tube or valve until one of them brought the sound back. The sockets were all then sprayed with contact cleaner and, as far as I know, that particular amplifier behaved much better from that day on. I would not want to go back to those days again. The equipment then was much easier to repair but we spent much more time doing those repairs so these really are the good old days now, for the most part. "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" wrote on a different topic: > Hello Dane, Martin, uncle Tom Cobbly and all! > Gordon has the microphone you were harping on about. It's excellent, no > denying that. > > The electric condensor microphone that clips on to your jacket, the > collar of your shirt or wherever. It works incredibly well with the Zoom > H1. > > In fact, Gordon has already produced several demonstrations for work > purposes using that combination of hardware. No, no mixing of course; but > it wasn't necessary anyway in that particular instance. As for microphones, I think we used a similar condenser mike for some applications. They were wonderful and we always made sure that the batteries in them were new before checking them out. I don't know if the one you are using has a battery to supply the bias, but the ones we had back in the eighties had a small button cell like a watch battery that supplied the charging voltage to make the condenser element produce voltages from the sound. The batteries last forever but after a few Audio Visual customers rented microphones whose batteries were forever and a day old, they started changing them as a routine procedure every time they were rented out. Sometimes, we got a "bad" microphone back in the shop. We would usually open it to find a dead battery, stick a new one in and all was sweetness and light. From william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk Wed Feb 16 17:11:17 2011 From: william.lomas at mac-access.org.uk (William Lomas) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:11:17 +0000 Subject: internet explorer and jaws nine Message-ID: hi has anyone else noted on a windows seven machine, that my friend has running jaws nine, taht when a page is loaded in internet explorer eight, all we get is page has no links, yet the page is visually on the screen? I told her that jaws nine which i assume is correct, isn't compatible wtih windows seven? From support at tft-bbs.com Wed Feb 16 20:46:28 2011 From: support at tft-bbs.com (Gordon & Lynne Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:46:28 +0000 Subject: New Member Welcome Message-ID: Hello everybody It is traditional when new members join the Techno-Chat group that Gordon and I try to welcome the new member(s) personally. In keeping with that tradition, we are delighted to welcome Jane, (I have no surname for her), to our number. Anything related to technology is open for discussion in this group. Members frequently post links to interesting articles in this group. Whilst the primary function of Techno-chat is discussion, we recognise that these articles are often of value. That is why we encourage members to post links, rather than the full articles themselves, to the group. This way, members have the option of whether to follow up the articles, or to discard them. We hope that you will find Techno-Chat a pleasant, friendly and worthwhile place to be. if you have any list-related queries, please don't hesitate to contact either Gordon and myself, support at tft-bbs.co.uk or our very able and capable assistant list controller Mary Stores, mstores at indiana.edu and we'll be pleased to help you. Lynne From tsiegel at softcon.com Wed Feb 16 23:59:46 2011 From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:59:46 -0600 Subject: How to crack iphone passwords Message-ID: <8EA8EFED-CBC5-453B-9934-ED60BC7AB3BD@softcon.com> Here['s an article explaining how a group of researchers cracked an iphone and got it's stored passwords out. It apparently didn't take very long, so be ware. http://blogs.pcmag.com/securitywatch/2011/02/how_to_crack_iphone_passwords.php From grtdane at internode.on.net Thu Feb 17 17:56:55 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 04:56:55 +1100 Subject: CCrane Twin Coil Tuneable Antenna System Message-ID: Hi everyone! Okay, started tests with this wonderful device, the first is detailed on my blog at http://www.grtdane.wordpress.com and as per usual comments are welcome. From grtdane at internode.on.net Fri Feb 18 23:56:52 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:56:52 +1100 Subject: Charging your Iphone when there's no power Message-ID: Yep it can be done and the link below takes you to the page of one device which will do this, it also is a very sensitive FM/AM radio which can run on a variety of power sources including winding the radio up, its own rechargible batteries, AC adapter etc. http://www.ccrane.com/radios/wind-up-emergency-radios/cc-observer-wind-up-emergency-radio.aspx From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 19 20:25:10 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 07:25:10 +1100 Subject: Cambridge DAB Tuner Message-ID: <4D602726.5030802@internode.on.net> Hmm, what wouldn't I give to have one of these, seems I've found a new savings target . http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=443&Title=Azur+650T+DAB%2B+%2F+FM+%2F+AM+RDS+tuner From grtdane at internode.on.net Sat Feb 19 23:23:59 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 10:23:59 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1, what's displayed? Message-ID: Hi! Okay for those people with sight who have a Zoom H1 recorder, what's displayed on the screen and is the screen easy to read? Just curious. From grtdane at internode.on.net Mon Feb 21 22:43:15 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:43:15 +1100 Subject: Extra sounds for Skype Message-ID: <8ADBC029-1E58-4457-8EFD-D8438FAD0F4D@internode.on.net> Hi! I have 2 sounds here which I made for Skype and I'm making them available but thought others may be interested in what I did to make the sounds. The First sound is a standard phone ring, only my opinion of course but the phone rings for incoming calls that come with Skype are absolute rubbish to say the least. The second sound I made was for Second Incoming calls, this sound is very similar to the Incoming call knocking tones given to us on our phone networks in Australia though the tones are shorter. For the first sound? Well I just sampled the ring of my Panasonic desktop telephone with my Zoom H1 recorder, copied to computer and normalised with Amadeus pro. The next sound for Second Incoming Calls I made using the tone generator of Amadeus Pro. Both these sounds are in AIF format, if you have a Mac then they can be added straight into your library using Skype's "Add Sound" feature, I won't go into details of how that works here. If you're using Skype for Windows then I suspect you'll have to convert these files from AIF to wave, I'm not up to date on the Windows version of Skype these days so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on list who can provide further information, just curious but it will probably benefit others too! Find the Phone ring at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Phone%20Ring.aif Find the Second Incoming Call sound at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Second%20Incoming%20Call.aif Note that the Phone Ring sound is for an Australian/British phone and not an American phone but you may like it all the same. Cheers and I welcome comments/suggestions. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 22 02:42:17 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:42:17 -0600 Subject: Extra sounds for Skype Message-ID: <201102220242.p1M2gHdZ009485@x.it.okstate.edu> I am not on skype, but I was interested to see if the .aif files would play in Linux. They play well with mplayer. Good work! Dane Trethowan writes: > I have 2 sounds here which I made for Skype and I'm making them available > but thought others may be interested in what I did to make the sounds. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 22 02:47:40 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:47:40 -0600 Subject: sox (was Extra sounds for Skype ) Message-ID: <201102220247.p1M2leZU009512@x.it.okstate.edu> While talking about sound files, There is also a utility that started out in Unix but, I think, is available for the Mac and Windows called sox which will convert many different types of sound files to whatever other type you need. It is command-line based and generally works as advertized but you must have patience as some of the commands can get hairy. You can speed-read sound files with sox and the quality of the speech is mostly excellent up to about 2.5 times the actual rate. Music sounds positively weird at speeds like that but the pitch is still right on unless you want to mess with that also. Sox will let you change the pitch independantly of the tempo. Sox stands for Sound eXchange. Dane Trethowan writes: > The First sound is a standard phone ring, only my opinion of course but > the phone rings for incoming calls that come with Skype are absolute > rubbish to say the least. > > The second sound I made was for Second Incoming calls, this sound is very > similar to the Incoming call knocking tones given to us on our phone > networks in Australia though the tones are shorter. > > For the first sound? Well I just sampled the ring of my Panasonic desktop > telephone with my Zoom H1 recorder, copied to computer and normalised > with Amadeus pro. > > The next sound for Second Incoming Calls I made using the tone generator > of Amadeus Pro. > > Both these sounds are in AIF format, if you have a Mac then they can be > added straight into your library using Skype's "Add Sound" feature, I > won't go into details of how that works here. > > If you're using Skype for Windows then I suspect you'll have to convert > these files from AIF to wave, I'm not up to date on the Windows version > of Skype these days so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on list who > can provide further information, just curious but it will probably > benefit others too! > > Find the Phone ring at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Phone%20Ring.aif > Find the Second Incoming Call sound at > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Second%20Incoming%20Call.aif > > Note that the Phone Ring sound is for an Australian/British phone and not > an American phone but you may like it all the same. > > Cheers and I welcome comments/suggestions. > > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, > virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated > web pages located at > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group > since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > > From grtdane at internode.on.net Tue Feb 22 02:57:52 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:57:52 +1100 Subject: Extra sounds for Skype In-Reply-To: <201102220242.p1M2gHdZ009485@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102220242.p1M2gHdZ009485@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <2E91628B-E261-4BFD-9BEC-599D755A401B@internode.on.net> Well if anyone can create better sounds for Skype than those provided? Well yep, its damn good work! . On 22/02/2011, at 1:42 PM, Martin McCormick wrote: > I am not on skype, but I was interested to see if the > .aif files would play in Linux. They play well with mplayer. > > Good work! > > Dane Trethowan writes: >> I have 2 sounds here which I made for Skype and I'm making them available >> but thought others may be interested in what I did to make the sounds. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Tue Feb 22 02:58:53 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:58:53 +1100 Subject: sox (was Extra sounds for Skype ) In-Reply-To: <201102220247.p1M2leZU009512@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102220247.p1M2leZU009512@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Don't know about Windows and Mac but its certainly part of my VINUX system here, highly recommended yes. On 22/02/2011, at 1:47 PM, Martin McCormick wrote: > While talking about sound files, > There is also a utility that started out in Unix but, I > think, is available for the Mac and Windows called sox which > will convert many different types of sound files to whatever > other type you need. It is command-line based and generally > works as advertized but you must have patience as some of the > commands can get hairy. > > You can speed-read sound files with sox and the quality > of the speech is mostly excellent up to about 2.5 times the > actual rate. Music sounds positively weird at speeds like that > but the pitch is still right on unless you want to mess with > that also. Sox will let you change the pitch independantly of > the tempo. > > Sox stands for Sound eXchange. > > Dane Trethowan writes: >> The First sound is a standard phone ring, only my opinion of course but >> the phone rings for incoming calls that come with Skype are absolute >> rubbish to say the least. >> >> The second sound I made was for Second Incoming calls, this sound is very >> similar to the Incoming call knocking tones given to us on our phone >> networks in Australia though the tones are shorter. >> >> For the first sound? Well I just sampled the ring of my Panasonic desktop >> telephone with my Zoom H1 recorder, copied to computer and normalised >> with Amadeus pro. >> >> The next sound for Second Incoming Calls I made using the tone generator >> of Amadeus Pro. >> >> Both these sounds are in AIF format, if you have a Mac then they can be >> added straight into your library using Skype's "Add Sound" feature, I >> won't go into details of how that works here. >> >> If you're using Skype for Windows then I suspect you'll have to convert >> these files from AIF to wave, I'm not up to date on the Windows version >> of Skype these days so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on list who >> can provide further information, just curious but it will probably >> benefit others too! >> >> Find the Phone ring at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Phone%20Ring.aif >> Find the Second Incoming Call sound at >> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10565527/Second%20Incoming%20Call.aif >> >> Note that the Phone Ring sound is for an Australian/British phone and not >> an American phone but you may like it all the same. >> >> Cheers and I welcome comments/suggestions. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, >> virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated >> web pages located at >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group >> since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Tue Feb 22 03:11:09 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:11:09 -0600 Subject: A little more Electrical power Trivia Message-ID: <201102220311.p1M3B9tR009646@x.it.okstate.edu> I happened to run across a program on "The History Channel" on our cable system about Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison. Both men submitted bids on what it would cost to use the power of Ni Agra Falls to power Buffalo, New York. Nikola Tesla was the father of alternating current power in the United States and Edison was a champion of DC or Direct Current. Tesla won hands down. Those on this list will remember our discussions of electrical power so I thought you might be interested in what happened. The distance from the falls to Buffalo is about 20 miles. Edison said he would need to build a booster power plant every 2 miles in any direction the power needed to go in order to maintain proper voltage at the businesses and homes that would be using the power. Tesla did not have to do that and was able to use transformers and heavy wires to make the run from Ni Agra Falls to Buffalo, much to Edison's annoyance. The program said that Tesla's original buildings are still standing at Ni Agra Falls, but the working generator facilities that sell power to the United States and Canada were modernized many years ago. There is a statue of Tesla which stands almost forgotten and many of the tourists that come to look probably have no idea who he was nor what he did. From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 04:41:17 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:41:17 -0800 Subject: Extra sounds for Skype In-Reply-To: <2E91628B-E261-4BFD-9BEC-599D755A401B@internode.on.net> References: <201102220242.p1M2gHdZ009485@x.it.okstate.edu> <2E91628B-E261-4BFD-9BEC-599D755A401B@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <22C1C0DA-E998-422C-9AC4-43806C61E19A@gmail.com> I had a hang up sound I sampled from a real phone I had. I hung up the phone and I can't find it anymore but if i do I'll pass it on for those that want it. On Feb 21, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote: > Well if anyone can create better sounds for Skype than those provided? Well yep, its damn good work! . > > > On 22/02/2011, at 1:42 PM, Martin McCormick wrote: > >> I am not on skype, but I was interested to see if the >> .aif files would play in Linux. They play well with mplayer. >> >> Good work! >> >> Dane Trethowan writes: >>> I have 2 sounds here which I made for Skype and I'm making them available >>> but thought others may be interested in what I did to make the sounds. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Wed Feb 23 15:03:22 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:03:22 -0600 Subject: Iphone Apps that Control Home Entertainment Devices Message-ID: <201102231503.p1NF3MGj022504@x.it.okstate.edu> There is a growing trend these days for companies who sell televisions, media servers and high-end audio visual products to provide apps for Iphones and other smart phones which will let you wirelessly control the devices. This could be a way around accessibility issues that many of these devices have. I have no idea at all as to how accessible the applications are. They could be just as bad as the equipment itself is and, for many devices these days, that is pretty dismal. I don't have any way to test any of this gear out as we do not own any entertainment devices that have a network interface. One of the monthly magazines we can get on Talking Book is "Sound and Vision." It is interesting to read it and see where the high end is going these days and I noticed that several devices did offer Iphone apps. If the programmer used proper techniques, there may be enough labels and tags for us to know where we are in the application but I wouldn't hold my breath too long. I recently used a web page that was part of a Cisco network access control or NAC solution. I do not know how it works with Internet Explorer and, say, JAWS, but under safari, it was utter rubbish because the tags just said things like "button" "button" "button" "button" when you were trying to register your system. Fortunately, we are not using that particular solution yet, but we will eventually choose something. How I love proprietary software. From grtdane at internode.on.net Fri Feb 25 13:35:33 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 00:35:33 +1100 Subject: Remote controlling from your Iphone or Ipad Message-ID: Hi! I think someone published on this subject earlier this week though I didn't reply to it at the time. I have for my Ipad a device which plugs into the dock, you run an App on your Ipad which is a universal remote controller, the device plugged into the doc is the infra red attachment which sends signals to your equipment for controlling, as far as I know it can also receive signals as you can "Teach" the controller about various products you have. I can't remember the name of the damn App now as its something I don't often use but its certainly accessible in everything I've tried to control, from my air conditioner to my surround-sound. I'm sure we're going to see a lot of devices and equipment controlled from the Ipad environment, I've read articles describing Apps for Ipad which control TV'S and other multi media devices, such apps are common place according to our local newspaper though there's the problem of Samsung which would prefer to have you control its devices via their own Galaxy tablet I think its called. I have other remote apps here for different things, there's the remote app for Apple TV which I haven't as yet managed to get working and then there's the classic in my view, the Winamp remote system called Iamp. You can completely control the way Winamp on your PC behaves with this thing, highly useful. From tsiegel at softcon.com Fri Feb 25 13:45:38 2011 From: tsiegel at softcon.com (Travis Siegel) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 07:45:38 -0600 Subject: Remote controlling from your Iphone or Ipad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dane. Do you know of an application that does the remote control thing for osx? I've actually been hunting for such an app for years, and haven't found one (though admittedly, I've really not looked all that hard) One with source would be prefferable, but I guess at this point, anything will do. From gordon at mac-access.net Fri Feb 25 14:14:39 2011 From: gordon at mac-access.net (Gordon Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:14:39 +0000 Subject: Remote controlling from your Iphone or Ipad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this is on the wrong list. We have a dedicated group for Apple-related discussions. Gordon From grtdane at internode.on.net Fri Feb 25 14:29:58 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:29:58 +1100 Subject: Remote controlling from your Iphone or Ipad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05622A24-94D0-4697-BC13-868C4F91F2BA@internode.on.net> Funny you should mention that, I've seen one written about on one of the mac lists but I haven't taken all that much notice as I don't need one myself for the Mac, the Mac is big! so it seems from my vantage point that there's little point of a remote controller for it but everyone's needs are different so I'll keep a lookout. On 26/02/2011, at 12:45 AM, Travis Siegel wrote: > Dane. > Do you know of an application that does the remote control thing for osx? I've actually been hunting for such an app for years, and haven't found one (though admittedly, I've really not looked all that hard) One with source would be prefferable, but I guess at this point, anything will do. > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Fri Feb 25 14:39:34 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:39:34 +1100 Subject: Remote controlling from your Iphone or Ipad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <788CB463-639B-4421-90AA-D53389B00429@internode.on.net> Indeed! I was replying to a message which was left by Martin earlier on in the week, Ipad was mentioned as a remote controller along with other devices so it was very general. On 26/02/2011, at 1:14 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: > I think this is on the wrong list. We have a dedicated group for Apple-related discussions. > > Gordon > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 03:06:09 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:06:09 -0800 Subject: Did Google pull app for in-app purchase violation? Message-ID: <0A77A504-64B5-4C70-ADC4-035E855E4B02@gmail.com> What is google up to here? read on. http://cnet.co/f61YL7 From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 27 05:17:33 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 05:17:33 +0000 Subject: Zoom H1 In-Reply-To: <201102160349.p1G3nCds062770@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102160349.p1G3nCds062770@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <3FAC7411-E772-4730-8FE1-DFE288ED7936@mac-access.net> Hello Martin; I have been meaning to reply to this for some time, just never got around to it. On 16 Feb 2011, at 03:49, Martin McCormick wrote: ? I can see why. If you use the built-in microphones, it is very easy to transmit sound in to them via the case of the H1 as you hold it. Many microphones are like this, also so it is not unique to the H1. Just as a test, I stood on our front porch and recorded neighborhood sounds which, tonight consisted solely of traffic several blocks away so it isn't much but when I played the file back over my computer speakers, it gave the feeling of being there. We have some wind chimes hanging where I was standing and I bumped them accidentally while recording. Bells are really hard to record but these are amazing well reproduced. The dynamic range of this machine is unbelievable. It really is incredibly well designed it seems to me. yes, that was why Gordon opted to go the external microphone unit. The only digital recorders he's ever used that he says did not suffer from the issue you mentioned is one which he used while working for hospital radio a short time ago, and hopes too again soon. That recorder was made by Behringer and is a professional unit. It has insulated X/Y and Y/X switchable dual pick-up microphones which we discovered can be switched not only in configuration but also in continuously variable frequency sensitivity so that you can tweak it for the environmental conditions. Gordon was very reluctant to put that machine down; and it was that, actually, as much as the recommendations here which made me go for the H1. Although you could have bought a busload of H1 machines complete with all accessory options for each machine and still not have enough money to buy the Behriner model, the H1 is a more than adequate home working unit. The Behringer, I looked it up in the catalogues that Gordon has here, and it's price tag is ?3500 Sterling without the additional options kit. I highly recommend the wind screen that is in the accessory kit. Those little microphones pick up the breeze of moving the recorder quite well without it. Agreed. But the tripod and mice stand clip are a bit flimsey. I will probably eventually do that just for the peace of mind of knowing there is plenty of medium. Micro-SD cards aren't exactly two a Cnutt either. I hope you have enough Gallions saved when you go shopping. perhaps a trip to Gringott's Bank would be advisable first. Lyne From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 27 05:20:55 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 05:20:55 +0000 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: hello Martin On 16 Feb 2011, at 03:59, Martin McCormick wrote: ? There may be an error indication on the display but it won't play the MP3's if the name doesn't start with ZOOM. There is indeed an error. it gives you a "No files" message. I also noticed that the recorder will work fine when powered by the USB cable if it was on when the cable was connected. You can turn it off this way but it won't turn back on. I didn't try it without a battery but I noticed that little oddity. It's designed that way. Other than accidentally changing the sampling rate a couple of times, it has been a real breeze to operate. How did you get it back without vision? Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 27 06:13:15 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:13:15 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1 In-Reply-To: <3FAC7411-E772-4730-8FE1-DFE288ED7936@mac-access.net> References: <201102160349.p1G3nCds062770@x.it.okstate.edu> <3FAC7411-E772-4730-8FE1-DFE288ED7936@mac-access.net> Message-ID: <59838796-02F9-488A-8284-D4F64B869277@internode.on.net> Yeah, that's my only slight problem with the Zoom, the price of Micro SD memory however that being said when you work it out - say the fact that a 32GB Micro SD card costs $145.00 here and the fact that you get 15 plus hours of the best sampling rate known to the audio industry to date? Well that's probably not all too bad, its just having the money on hand for the extra card. I'm still using the 2GB card my unit came with, I've had the Zoom H1 for just over 4 months now and the machine gets used here every day. 2gb, 4GB and 8GB cards strangely seem to be well within my budget so I'm thinking of staying right away from 16GB and 32GB until prices change. The tripod in the accessaries kit? A little flimbsy yes however we're talking about an incredibly cheap package here so one can't have everything all ways. I'd like to see some rubber feet on the tripod but that's something one can do at one's own leisure. I think I remember saying to Lynne, I wondered if a better Tripod was available that would fit the H1 at a camera store? I've not looked into that but in the meantime? I'm more than happy to use the Tripod which comes in the accessaries kit, it works and that's the main thing. On 27/02/2011, at 4:17 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Martin; I have been meaning to reply to this for some time, just never got around to it. > > On 16 Feb 2011, at 03:49, Martin McCormick wrote: > > ? I can see why. If you use the built-in microphones, it is very > easy to transmit sound in to them via the case of the H1 as you > hold it. Many microphones are like this, also so it is not > unique to the H1. Just as a test, I stood on our front porch and > recorded neighborhood sounds which, tonight consisted solely of > traffic several blocks away so it isn't much but when I played > the file back over my computer speakers, it gave the feeling of > being there. We have some wind chimes hanging where I was > standing and I bumped them accidentally while recording. Bells > are really hard to record but these are amazing well reproduced. > > The dynamic range of this machine is unbelievable. It really is incredibly well designed it seems to me. yes, that was why Gordon opted to go the external microphone unit. The only digital recorders he's ever used that he says did not suffer from the issue you mentioned is one which he used while working for hospital radio a short time ago, and hopes too again soon. > > That recorder was made by Behringer and is a professional unit. It has insulated X/Y and Y/X switchable dual pick-up microphones which we discovered can be switched not only in configuration but also in continuously variable frequency sensitivity so that you can tweak it for the environmental conditions. > > Gordon was very reluctant to put that machine down; and it was that, actually, as much as the recommendations here which made me go for the H1. Although you could have bought a busload of H1 machines complete with all accessory options for each machine and still not have enough money to buy the Behriner model, the H1 is a more than adequate home working unit. > > The Behringer, I looked it up in the catalogues that Gordon has here, and it's price tag is ?3500 Sterling without the additional options kit. > > I highly recommend the wind screen that is in the > accessory kit. Those little microphones pick up the breeze of > moving the recorder quite well without it. > > Agreed. But the tripod and mice stand clip are a bit flimsey. > > I will probably eventually do that just for the peace of > mind of knowing there is plenty of medium. > > Micro-SD cards aren't exactly two a Cnutt either. I hope you have enough Gallions saved when you go shopping. perhaps a trip to Gringott's Bank would be advisable first. > > Lyne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 27 06:17:18 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:17:18 +1100 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> If I may interrupt with my experience here and I've probably repeated this many times before. I know exactly what sample rate the Zoom H1 is set to by the use of my induction amp, you can hear the differences in the way the recorder writes to the SD card depending on what sampling rate you're using so that's how I know what sampling rate mine is set at. The other way of course is the "tried and true" way, record a file, copy it to your computer and load it into your editor, your editor should show you the attributes of the recording. Having said all that? Well I'm just happy most of the time leaving my H1 set to 44.1KHZ and having used it for so long? Well it becomes second nature not to push the fast-forward or rewind buttons whilst the unit is in standby . On 27/02/2011, at 4:20 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Martin > > On 16 Feb 2011, at 03:59, Martin McCormick wrote: > > ? There may be an error indication on the display but it won't play the MP3's if the name doesn't start with ZOOM. > > There is indeed an error. it gives you a "No files" message. > > I also noticed that the recorder will work fine when > powered by the USB cable if it was on when the cable was > connected. You can turn it off this way but it won't turn back > on. I didn't try it without a battery but I noticed that little > oddity. > > It's designed that way. > > Other than accidentally changing the sampling rate a > couple of times, it has been a real breeze to operate. > > How did you get it back without vision? > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 27 08:54:37 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:54:37 +0000 Subject: Zoom H1 In-Reply-To: <59838796-02F9-488A-8284-D4F64B869277@internode.on.net> References: <201102160349.p1G3nCds062770@x.it.okstate.edu> <3FAC7411-E772-4730-8FE1-DFE288ED7936@mac-access.net> <59838796-02F9-488A-8284-D4F64B869277@internode.on.net> Message-ID: Hello Dane On 27 Feb 2011, at 06:13, Dane Trethowan wrote: ? Yeah, that's my only slight problem with the Zoom, the price of Micro SD memory however that being said when you work it out - say the fact that a 32GB Micro SD card costs $145.00 here and the fact that you get 15 plus hours of the best sampling rate known to the audio industry to date? Well that's probably not all too bad, its just having the money on hand for the extra card. The Zoom isn't the only device that uses those cards and yes, they're damned expensive. I made one really major stuff-uip as you know Dane. I bought Gordon and somebody else an SD card, thinking they were Micro SD cards. When they arrived I realised my mistake and I have to admit I felt incredibly stupid at the time. No excuse for me; I have full vision so I should have notice the absence of the word "Micro". Still, no harm done; we did get our money back from Amazon, no questions asked. Including shipping which, I have to say, was rare. When the budget permits I'll repeat the exercise. But Gordon says he's not desperate for a 32GB card, as he does have a 16GB which is very adequate, as well as the 2GB as well, of course. Lynne I'm still using the 2GB card my unit came with, I've had the Zoom H1 for just over 4 months now and the machine gets used here every day. 2gb, 4GB and 8GB cards strangely seem to be well within my budget so I'm thinking of staying right away from 16GB and 32GB until prices change. The tripod in the accessaries kit? A little flimbsy yes however we're talking about an incredibly cheap package here so one can't have everything all ways. I'd like to see some rubber feet on the tripod but that's something one can do at one's own leisure. I think I remember saying to Lynne, I wondered if a better Tripod was available that would fit the H1 at a camera store? I've not looked into that but in the meantime? I'm more than happy to use the Tripod which comes in the accessaries kit, it works and that's the main thing. On 27/02/2011, at 4:17 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Martin; I have been meaning to reply to this for some time, just never got around to it. > > On 16 Feb 2011, at 03:49, Martin McCormick wrote: > > ? I can see why. If you use the built-in microphones, it is very > easy to transmit sound in to them via the case of the H1 as you > hold it. Many microphones are like this, also so it is not > unique to the H1. Just as a test, I stood on our front porch and > recorded neighborhood sounds which, tonight consisted solely of > traffic several blocks away so it isn't much but when I played > the file back over my computer speakers, it gave the feeling of > being there. We have some wind chimes hanging where I was > standing and I bumped them accidentally while recording. Bells > are really hard to record but these are amazing well reproduced. > > The dynamic range of this machine is unbelievable. It really is incredibly well designed it seems to me. yes, that was why Gordon opted to go the external microphone unit. The only digital recorders he's ever used that he says did not suffer from the issue you mentioned is one which he used while working for hospital radio a short time ago, and hopes too again soon. > > That recorder was made by Behringer and is a professional unit. It has insulated X/Y and Y/X switchable dual pick-up microphones which we discovered can be switched not only in configuration but also in continuously variable frequency sensitivity so that you can tweak it for the environmental conditions. > > Gordon was very reluctant to put that machine down; and it was that, actually, as much as the recommendations here which made me go for the H1. Although you could have bought a busload of H1 machines complete with all accessory options for each machine and still not have enough money to buy the Behriner model, the H1 is a more than adequate home working unit. > > The Behringer, I looked it up in the catalogues that Gordon has here, and it's price tag is ?3500 Sterling without the additional options kit. > > I highly recommend the wind screen that is in the > accessory kit. Those little microphones pick up the breeze of > moving the recorder quite well without it. > > Agreed. But the tripod and mice stand clip are a bit flimsey. > > I will probably eventually do that just for the peace of > mind of knowing there is plenty of medium. > > Micro-SD cards aren't exactly two a Cnutt either. I hope you have enough Gallions saved when you go shopping. perhaps a trip to Gringott's Bank would be advisable first. > > Lyne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > _______________________________________________ The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 27 08:58:31 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:58:31 +0000 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> hello Dane On 27 Feb 2011, at 06:17, Dane Trethowan wrote: ? I know exactly what sample rate the Zoom H1 is set to by the use of my induction amp, you can hear the differences in the way the recorder writes to the SD card depending on what sampling rate you're using so that's how I know what sampling rate mine is set at. I actually looked for those but couldn't find one. But to be fair I didn't look too hard; and I have more important things to worry about just now than running around town for those. :) ? The other way of course is the "tried and true" way, record a file, copy it to your computer and load it into your editor, your editor should show you the attributes of the recording. That's fine if you have the time and if you happen to have a computer available all the time. ? Having said all that? Well I'm just happy most of the time leaving my H1 set to 44.1KHZ and having used it for so long? Well it becomes second nature not to push the fast-forward or rewind buttons whilst the unit is in standby . yes, I agree with that. That's what Gordon does. He doesn't like recording in MP3 anyway as we never use the format and it's a bit pointless. Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 27 09:38:07 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:38:07 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1 and MP3 In-Reply-To: <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> Message-ID: Interested in your comments on MP3. I wouldn't say its pointless, if you're recording a long lecture or monitoring then its a damn handy format for the Zoom to have though I can encode better on my computer I must be honest. Point is though that the facility's available and its not too bad if you're prepared to use higher bit rates. Not everyone has access to large memory cards either and that's where MP3 can help. Like it or lump it, MP3 will be with us for years to come, its a universally accepted format just as the CD is. Yep, CD isn't the best tool for playing back music and its a 30 year old technology at least but its everywhere. On 27/02/2011, at 7:58 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Dane > > On 27 Feb 2011, at 06:17, Dane Trethowan wrote: > > ? I know exactly what sample rate the Zoom H1 is set to by the use of my induction amp, you can hear the differences in the way the recorder writes to the SD card depending on what sampling rate you're using so that's how I know what sampling rate mine is set at. > > I actually looked for those but couldn't find one. But to be fair I didn't look too hard; and I have more important things to worry about just now than running around town for those. :) > > ? The other way of course is the "tried and true" way, record a file, copy it to your computer and load it into your editor, your editor should show you the attributes of the recording. > > That's fine if you have the time and if you happen to have a computer available all the time. > > ? Having said all that? Well I'm just happy most of the time leaving my H1 set to 44.1KHZ and having used it for so long? Well it becomes second nature not to push the fast-forward or rewind buttons whilst the unit is in standby . > > yes, I agree with that. That's what Gordon does. He doesn't like recording in MP3 anyway as we never use the format and it's a bit pointless. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Sun Feb 27 11:12:24 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 11:12:24 +0000 Subject: Zoom H1 and MP3 In-Reply-To: References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> Message-ID: Hello Dane On 27 Feb 2011, at 09:38, Dane Trethowan wrote: Interested in your comments on MP3. you misunderstood them. I was saying that, since we don't use Mp3, it's pointless us recording on the Zoom in MP3. Not that it's pointless for everybody. After all; we need a monitor because I use it. You don't, so spending lots of money on a flash display would be a totally pointless exercise for you. You see my point? Lynne Lynne From grtdane at internode.on.net Sun Feb 27 17:42:16 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:42:16 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1 and MP3 In-Reply-To: References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> Message-ID: Ah no, I'm not sure I do actually, what's extra money got to do with a facility that you're not paying any extra for and which is built-in to a recorder anyway? On 27/02/2011, at 10:12 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > Hello Dane > > On 27 Feb 2011, at 09:38, Dane Trethowan wrote: > > Interested in your comments on MP3. > > you misunderstood them. I was saying that, since we don't use Mp3, it's pointless us recording on the Zoom in MP3. Not that it's pointless for everybody. > > After all; we need a monitor because I use it. You don't, so spending lots of money on a flash display would be a totally pointless exercise for you. You see my point? > > > Lynne > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From lynne at mac-access.net Mon Feb 28 12:39:45 2011 From: lynne at mac-access.net (Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:39:45 +0000 Subject: Zoom H1 and MP3 In-Reply-To: References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> Message-ID: <6BDCD447-3BC0-4FEE-A736-D06EA5595F12@mac-access.net> hello Dane On 27 Feb 2011, at 17:42, Dane Trethowan wrote: Ah no, I'm not sure I do actually, what's extra money got to do with a facility that you're not paying any extra for and which is built-in to a recorder anyway? Why are you twisting what I'm saying? :) What I said was there's no point you spending money on a monitor that you wouldn't use. I used that as an analogy, that was all. Lynne From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Mon Feb 28 14:17:01 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:17:01 -0600 Subject: More about the H1 Message-ID: <201102281417.p1SEH13m055512@x.it.okstate.edu> "Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith" quotes and then writes: > Other than accidentally changing the sampling rate a > couple of times, it has been a real breeze to operate. > > How did you get it back without vision? by listening to the repetitive sound of the static it makes on an AM radio when held close. Tune to a relatively quite spot on the dial near the low end of the AM broadcast band and you will hear various patterns of noise when the recorder is in various states of operation. Press Record and you hear a pulsating sound which is the record buffer being dumped to the disk as others have described. This chug-chug sound is faster on the higher sample rates and much slower if recording MP3's. From martin at x.it.okstate.edu Mon Feb 28 14:51:39 2011 From: martin at x.it.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:51:39 -0600 Subject: MP3's Message-ID: <201102281451.p1SEpdHx055815@x.it.okstate.edu> I would call my ears fair but not excellent. Might right ear is still pretty good up to 12 or 13 kilohertz but my left ear is not quite that good. All that being said, most 64 and 128 kilobit MP3 files sound quite good if they were encoded well to begin with. I have also heard plenty of MP3's that sounded bad over speakers and flat stank over headphones. Another thing I discovered while trying to copy some of our old phonograph records to CD's was that the ticks and pops on the records sound pretty normal if transcribed to a wave file but that the MP3 encoding process I used seemed to accentuate them and make them sound horrible. Each tick sounds like a drop of water falling on a hot grill so you need to use a filter program, one such being gramofile in Linux but I know there are lots of other good ones around. Anyway, I do not have anything against MP3 files if they are good but .wav files are probably the best archival format because they are easier to edit and they contain no artifacts other than those one gets when digitizing analog signals. Of course, the .wav files will eat up storage space so there is no perfect format. I have read that the stereo sound channels in television audio are an MP3 stream. It has to synchronize with the video so that sounds occur at the exact instant they should occur while viewing the picture. From grtdane at internode.on.net Mon Feb 28 18:51:41 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 05:51:41 +1100 Subject: Zoom H1 and MP3 In-Reply-To: <6BDCD447-3BC0-4FEE-A736-D06EA5595F12@mac-access.net> References: <201102160359.p1G3x2wx062912@x.it.okstate.edu> <84B189D4-8FF2-4749-8A37-21B0F69C4C30@internode.on.net> <992A88FC-66D2-4979-97CB-FC7D10C8874C@mac-access.net> <6BDCD447-3BC0-4FEE-A736-D06EA5595F12@mac-access.net> Message-ID: <3C168F3C-F7F5-446E-B0CA-12E130FEA563@internode.on.net> Yes but that doesn't sum up things terribly well really, if that were the case then you wouldn't have bought the Zoom H1 in the first place surely! Yes the function's there but you don't use it and that's totally up to you but its a great enhancement or feature for those who want to record long lectures or whatever. On 28/02/2011, at 11:39 PM, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith wrote: > hello Dane > > On 27 Feb 2011, at 17:42, Dane Trethowan wrote: > > Ah no, I'm not sure I do actually, what's extra money got to do with a facility that you're not paying any extra for and which is built-in to a recorder anyway? > > > Why are you twisting what I'm saying? :) What I said was there's no point you spending money on a monitor that you wouldn't use. I used that as an analogy, that was all. > > Lynne > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From gordon at mac-access.net Mon Feb 28 19:51:49 2011 From: gordon at mac-access.net (Gordon Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:51:49 +0000 Subject: Outlook & Windows Mail, looks like some things never change! Message-ID: Hi A friend of ours has been doing some testing over at Teesside university over the last few weeks to see if the so-called "Transmission leaks" in Microsoft Windows platforms have been addressed in Windows 7. Sadly, according to Neil and his team, the results show a remarkable swing to the contrary. Windows 7, once you install the optional Windows Live Mail, is even worse than Outlook Express, if you can imagine that, for transmitting address books full of phone numbers, E-Mail addresses and often more. I haven't seen this behaviour myself because we don't use the platform all that much now. But I'm shocked and genuinely horrified at just how quickly our own test E-Maill addresses have reached the "spam-guys" And the only way it could have happened is via re-transmission. The addresses don't appear on any websites, don't appear in any ads or anything else. One isn't even safe in a Mac discussion list, because people will insist on using Windows there as well. :) Gordon From gordon at mac-access.net Mon Feb 28 19:53:42 2011 From: gordon at mac-access.net (Gordon Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:53:42 +0000 Subject: More about the H1 In-Reply-To: <201102281417.p1SEH13m055512@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102281417.p1SEH13m055512@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Hello Martin Must remember to take an AM radio or an induction amp everywhere I go. :) Gordon On 28 Feb 2011, at 14:17, Martin McCormick wrote: by listening to the repetitive sound of the static it makes on an AM radio when held close. Tune to a relatively quite spot on the dial near the low end of the AM broadcast band and you will hear various patterns of noise when the recorder is in various states of operation. Press Record and you hear a pulsating sound which is the record buffer being dumped to the disk as others have described. This chug-chug sound is faster on the higher sample rates and much slower if recording MP3's. From grtdane at internode.on.net Mon Feb 28 20:26:28 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 07:26:28 +1100 Subject: Outlook & Windows Mail, looks like some things never change! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6C04F4.5020403@internode.on.net> Okay first question, I'm using Windows now, though not Windows 7 but I'm using Thunderbird, does this have any baring o the discussion? On 1/03/2011 6:51 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: > Hi > > A friend of ours has been doing some testing over at Teesside university over the last few weeks to see if the so-called "Transmission leaks" in Microsoft Windows platforms have been addressed in Windows 7. > > Sadly, according to Neil and his team, the results show a remarkable swing to the contrary. Windows 7, once you install the optional Windows Live Mail, is even worse than Outlook Express, if you can imagine that, for transmitting address books full of phone numbers, E-Mail addresses and often more. > > I haven't seen this behaviour myself because we don't use the platform all that much now. But I'm shocked and genuinely horrified at just how quickly our own test E-Maill addresses have reached the "spam-guys" And the only way it could have happened is via re-transmission. The addresses don't appear on any websites, don't appear in any ads or anything else. > > One isn't even safe in a Mac discussion list, because people will insist on using Windows there as well. :) > > Gordon > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 21:23:29 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:23:29 -0800 Subject: Outlook & Windows Mail, looks like some things never change! In-Reply-To: <4D6C04F4.5020403@internode.on.net> References: <4D6C04F4.5020403@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <31BAA835-CB2D-48B5-AC28-9E63EF0B959E@gmail.com> and I have a simpler question. what are transmission leaks? Sorry I'm not that up to date on this stuff and I reasontly left windows secrets news letter as well. Take care all. Sarah Alawami If you need an edit done on a small project go to http://music.marrie.org/master for more info. If you need to contact me my info is below. MSN and AIM: marrie12 at gmail.com website: http://music.marrie.org Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125 On Feb 28, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote: > Okay first question, I'm using Windows now, though not Windows 7 but I'm using Thunderbird, does this have any baring o the discussion? > > > > On 1/03/2011 6:51 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: >> Hi >> >> A friend of ours has been doing some testing over at Teesside university over the last few weeks to see if the so-called "Transmission leaks" in Microsoft Windows platforms have been addressed in Windows 7. >> >> Sadly, according to Neil and his team, the results show a remarkable swing to the contrary. Windows 7, once you install the optional Windows Live Mail, is even worse than Outlook Express, if you can imagine that, for transmitting address books full of phone numbers, E-Mail addresses and often more. >> >> I haven't seen this behaviour myself because we don't use the platform all that much now. But I'm shocked and genuinely horrified at just how quickly our own test E-Maill addresses have reached the "spam-guys" And the only way it could have happened is via re-transmission. The addresses don't appear on any websites, don't appear in any ads or anything else. >> >> One isn't even safe in a Mac discussion list, because people will insist on using Windows there as well. :) >> >> Gordon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 21:25:02 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:25:02 -0800 Subject: MP3's In-Reply-To: <201102281451.p1SEpdHx055815@x.it.okstate.edu> References: <201102281451.p1SEpdHx055815@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: You could also use flac to store files you will edit later. I do this all the time, or try to anyway. They are about half the size of wav files. Give them a listen and good luck. Sarah Alawami If you need an edit done on a small project go to http://music.marrie.org/master for more info. If you need to contact me my info is below. MSN and AIM: marrie12 at gmail.com website: http://music.marrie.org Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125 On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Martin McCormick wrote: > I would call my ears fair but not excellent. Might right > ear is still pretty good up to 12 or 13 kilohertz but my left > ear is not quite that good. > > All that being said, most 64 and 128 kilobit MP3 files > sound quite good if they were encoded well to begin with. I have > also heard plenty of MP3's that sounded bad over speakers and > flat stank over headphones. Another thing I discovered while > trying to copy some of our old phonograph records to CD's was > that the ticks and pops on the records sound pretty normal if > transcribed to a wave file but that the MP3 encoding process I > used seemed to accentuate them and make them sound horrible. > Each tick sounds like a drop of water falling on a hot grill so > you need to use a filter program, one such being gramofile in > Linux but I know there are lots of other good ones around. > > Anyway, I do not have anything against MP3 files if they > are good but .wav files are probably the best archival format > because they are easier to edit and they contain no artifacts > other than those one gets when digitizing analog signals. > > Of course, the .wav files will eat up storage space so > there is no perfect format. > I have read that the stereo sound channels in television > audio are an MP3 stream. It has to synchronize with the video so > that sounds occur at the exact instant they should occur while > viewing the picture. > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 21:33:21 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:33:21 -0800 Subject: WebAIM Screen Reader User Survey #3 results - Message-ID: <762E0B54-67D9-46D4-B0F6-5A498E57E4C5@gmail.com> Are these results surprising at all? What will this mean to screen reading manufactures read more: http://weba.im/survey3 From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 21:40:51 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:40:51 -0800 Subject: FCC Enforcement Advisory - Reminding TRS Providers of Emergency Calling Requirements Message-ID: On February 16, 2011, the Enforcement Bureau Commission issued the attached advisory reminding providers of their obligations to comply with Commission rules governing the provision of VRS and IP Relay regardless of the technology used to make a call. In particular, VRS providers must comply with the Commissions emergency call handling rules. The emergency call handling rules for IP Relay and VRS providers include, among other things, the following requirements: ? IP Relay and VRS providers must transmit all 911 calls -- as well as automatic number identification (ANI, generally the caller?s 10-digit number), the caller?s registered location, the name of the Internet-based TRS provider, and the communications assistant?s (CA?s) identification number for each call -- to the public safety answering point (PSAP), or other appropriate local emergency authority that serves the caller?s registered location; ? IP Relay and VRS providers must answer incoming emergency calls before any non-emergency call, i.e., prioritize the emergency calls and move them to the top of the queue; ? IP Relay and VRS providers must route all 911 calls through the use of ANI, and, if necessary, pseudo-ANI, via the dedicated wireline E911 network to the PSAP, or appropriate local emergency authority that serves the caller?s registered location; ? If the Internet-based TRS is capable of being used from more than one location, the IP Relay and VRS provider must offer the consumer one or more methods of updating his or her registered location at will and in a timely manner. At least one of those methods must allow the user to update his or her registered location from the equipment he or she uses to access the Internet-based TRS; ? In the event that one or both legs of the emergency call (i.e., either between the TRS user and the CA or between the CA and the PSAP/other emergency authority) is disconnected, the IP Relay or VRS provider must immediately re-establish contact with the TRS user and/or the appropriate PSAP or other emergency authority. The link to the attached document is www.fcc.fov/cgb/dro/headlines.html. From grtdane at internode.on.net Mon Feb 28 21:51:08 2011 From: grtdane at internode.on.net (Dane Trethowan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 08:51:08 +1100 Subject: MP3's In-Reply-To: References: <201102281451.p1SEpdHx055815@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Yeah but you can't use Flac on a Zoom H1 . On 01/03/2011, at 8:25 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote: > You could also use flac to store files you will edit later. I do this all the time, or try to anyway. They are about half the size of wav files. Give them a listen and good luck. > Sarah Alawami > > If you need an edit done on a small project go to http://music.marrie.org/master for more info. If you need to contact me my info is below. > > MSN and AIM: marrie12 at gmail.com > > website: http://music.marrie.org > Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com > youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125 > > On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Martin McCormick wrote: > >> I would call my ears fair but not excellent. Might right >> ear is still pretty good up to 12 or 13 kilohertz but my left >> ear is not quite that good. >> >> All that being said, most 64 and 128 kilobit MP3 files >> sound quite good if they were encoded well to begin with. I have >> also heard plenty of MP3's that sounded bad over speakers and >> flat stank over headphones. Another thing I discovered while >> trying to copy some of our old phonograph records to CD's was >> that the ticks and pops on the records sound pretty normal if >> transcribed to a wave file but that the MP3 encoding process I >> used seemed to accentuate them and make them sound horrible. >> Each tick sounds like a drop of water falling on a hot grill so >> you need to use a filter program, one such being gramofile in >> Linux but I know there are lots of other good ones around. >> >> Anyway, I do not have anything against MP3 files if they >> are good but .wav files are probably the best archival format >> because they are easier to edit and they contain no artifacts >> other than those one gets when digitizing analog signals. >> >> Of course, the .wav files will eat up storage space so >> there is no perfect format. >> I have read that the stereo sound channels in television >> audio are an MP3 stream. It has to synchronize with the video so >> that sounds occur at the exact instant they should occur while >> viewing the picture. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 22:11:34 2011 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:11:34 -0800 Subject: MP3's In-Reply-To: References: <201102281451.p1SEpdHx055815@x.it.okstate.edu> Message-ID: <085B7CE2-517B-42BB-A77D-D8DFCEE24BF0@gmail.com> Oops! I was actually taling about editing in general though. Sorry about htat. Take care all On Feb 28, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Dane Trethowan wrote: > Yeah but you can't use Flac on a Zoom H1 . > > > On 01/03/2011, at 8:25 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote: > >> You could also use flac to store files you will edit later. I do this all the time, or try to anyway. They are about half the size of wav files. Give them a listen and good luck. >> Sarah Alawami >> >> If you need an edit done on a small project go to http://music.marrie.org/master for more info. If you need to contact me my info is below. >> >> MSN and AIM: marrie12 at gmail.com >> >> website: http://music.marrie.org >> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com >> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125 >> >> On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Martin McCormick wrote: >> >>> I would call my ears fair but not excellent. Might right >>> ear is still pretty good up to 12 or 13 kilohertz but my left >>> ear is not quite that good. >>> >>> All that being said, most 64 and 128 kilobit MP3 files >>> sound quite good if they were encoded well to begin with. I have >>> also heard plenty of MP3's that sounded bad over speakers and >>> flat stank over headphones. Another thing I discovered while >>> trying to copy some of our old phonograph records to CD's was >>> that the ticks and pops on the records sound pretty normal if >>> transcribed to a wave file but that the MP3 encoding process I >>> used seemed to accentuate them and make them sound horrible. >>> Each tick sounds like a drop of water falling on a hot grill so >>> you need to use a filter program, one such being gramofile in >>> Linux but I know there are lots of other good ones around. >>> >>> Anyway, I do not have anything against MP3 files if they >>> are good but .wav files are probably the best archival format >>> because they are easier to edit and they contain no artifacts >>> other than those one gets when digitizing analog signals. >>> >>> Of course, the .wav files will eat up storage space so >>> there is no perfect format. >>> I have read that the stereo sound channels in television >>> audio are an MP3 stream. It has to synchronize with the video so >>> that sounds occur at the exact instant they should occur while >>> viewing the picture. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >>> >>> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >>> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free >> >> To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: >> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > > The Techno-Chat E-Mail forum is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free > > To modify your subscription options, please visit for forum's dedicated web pages located at http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/techno-chat > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Techno-Chat group since the 12th of April 2010, at: > http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/techno-chat/index.html >